[Senate Hearing 106-] [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office] S. HRG 106-1012 USDA CIVIL RIGHTS ======================================================================= HEARING before the COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE, NUTRITION, AND FORESTRY UNITED STATES SENATE ONE HUNDRED SEVENTH CONGRESS SECOND SESSION __________ SEPTEMBER 12, 2000 __________ Printed for the use of the Committee on Agriculture, Nutrition, and Forestry Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.agriculture.senate.gov U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 70-527 WASHINGTON : 2003 ____________________________________________________________________________ For Sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office Internet: bookstore.gpo.gov Phone: toll free (866) 512-1800; (202) 512-1800 Fax: (202) 512-2250 Mail: Stop SSOP, Washington, DC 20402-0001 COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE, NUTRITION, AND FORESTRY RICHARD G. LUGAR, Indiana, Chairman JESSE HELMS, North Carolina TOM HARKIN, Iowa, THAD COCHRAN, Mississippi PATRICK J. LEAHY, Vermont MITCH McCONNELL, Kentucky KENT CONRAD, North Dakota PAT ROBERTS, Kansas THOMAS A. DASCHLE, South Dakota PETER G. FITZGERALD, Illinois MAX BAUCUS, Montana CHARLES E. GRASSELEY, Iowa J. ROBERT KERREY, Nebraska LARRY E. CRAIG, Idaho TIM JOHNSON, South Dakota RICK SANTORIUM, Pennsylvania BLANCHE L. LINCOLN, Arkansas GORDON SMITH, Oregon ZELL MILLER, Georgia Keith Luse, Staff Director/Chief Counsel David L. Johnson, Chief Counsel for the Minority Robert E. Sturm, Chief Clerk for the Minority Mark Halverson, Staff Director (ii) C O N T E N T S ---------- Page Hearing(s): USDA Civil Rights................................................ 01 ---------- Tuesday, September 12, 2000 STATEMENTS PRESENTED BY SENATORS Lugar, Hon. Richard G., a U.S. Senator from Indiana, Chairman, Committee on Agriculture, Nutrition, and Forestry.............. 01 Harkin, Hon. Tom, a U.S. Senator from Iowa, Ranking Member, Committee on Agriculture, Nutrition, and Forestry.............. 29 Baucus, Hon. Max, a U.S. Senator from Montana.................... 09 Cochran, Hon. Thad, a U.S. Senator from Mississippi.............. 03 Conrad, Hon. Kent, a U.S. Senator from North Dakota.............. 05 Lincoln, Hon. Blanche L., a U.S. Senator from Arkansas........... 26 Miller, Hon. Zell, a U.S. Senator from Georgia................... 02 Smith, Hon. Gordon, a U.S. Senator from Oregon................... 04 ---------- WITNESSES Panel I Robertson, Bob, Associate Director, General Accounting Office, Washington, DC, accompanied by Jerilynn B. Hoy, Assistant Director, Resources, Community, and Economic Development Division, General Accounting Office...................................... 07 Viadero, Richard, Inspector General, USDA, Washington, DC, accompanied by James R. Ebbitt, Assistant Inspector General, USDA........................................................... 05 Panel II Fiddick, Paul, USDA Assistant Secretary for Administration, Washington, DC, accompanied by Rosalind Gray, Director, Office of Civil Rights, and David Winningham, Chief Operating Officer, Office of Civil Rights......................................... 19 Rawls, Charles R., General Counsel, USDA, Washington, DC........ 20 Panel III Boyd, John, President, National Black Farmers Association, Baskerville, Virginia....................................................... 34 Carranza, Juanita, Lambert, Montana.............................. 41 Connor, Harold, Upper Marlboro, Maryland, accompanied by Joseph D. Gebhardt, Esq............................................... 44 Lucas, Lawrence, USDA Coalition of Minority Employees, Washington, DC................................................. 39 Pires, Alexander, Esq., Conlon, Frantz, Phelan and Pires, Washington, DC................................................. 48 Zippert, John, Director of Operations, Federation of Southern Cooperatives, and Chairman of the Board, the Rural Coalition, Epes, Alabama.................................................. 37 ---------- APPENDIX Prepared Statements: Lugar, Hon. Richard, G....................................... 62 Harkin, Hon. Tom............................................. 64 Baucus, Hon. Max............................................. 68 Smith, Hon. Gordon, H........................................ 66 Boyd, John................................................... 138 Carranza, Juanita............................................ 212 Connor, Harold............................................... 216 Fiddick, Paul................................................ 124 Lucas, Lawrence.............................................. 188 Pires, Alexander............................................. 229 Robertson, Bob............................................... 114 Viadero, Roger C............................................. 072 Zippert, John................................................ 141 Document(s) Submitted for the Record: Robb, Hon. Charles........................................... 234 Letters, Affidavits, and Complaints.......................... 236 Questions and Answers: From Sen. Charles Robb to Mr. Fiddick and Mr. Rawls.......... 540 USDA CIVIL RIGHTS ---------- TUESDAY, SEPTEMBER 12, 2000 U.S. Senate, Committee on Agriculture, Nutrition, and Forestry, Washington, DC. The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 9 a.m., in room SR-328A, Russell Senate Office Building, Hon. Richard G. Lugar, chairman of the committee, presiding. Present or submitting a statement: Senators Lugar, Cochran, Smith, Harkin, Conrad, Baucus, Lincoln, and Miller. STATEMENT OF HON. RICHARD LUGAR, A U.S. SENATOR FROM INDIANA The Chairman. This hearing of the Senate Agriculture Committee is called to order. The committee strives to continue its work this morning to help solve the problem of discrimination at the United States Department of Agriculture. We have held meetings with USDA officials and we have enlisted the help of the General Accounting Office. When I met with Secretary Glickman in October last year, I told him that this issue was of the utmost importance to me personally and I received his word that he was doing all he could to address the situation. As part of this committee's oversight responsibility, we have consistently looked at the management of USDA programs and made suggestions on how to better manage the department's resources. The problem of systemic discrimination, however, does not lend itself easily to a management critique. The troubles at the USDA require more than a new computer system or a business process. Many of these problems will be discussed today and they stem from personal behavior that is difficult to eliminate in a department of more than 100,000 employees. However, it is the duty of this committee to ensure that all laws and policies are strictly followed and that those who believe that they have been discriminated against receive appropriate and speedy resolution of their grievances. In recent years, there has been an increasing number of class action lawsuits and administrative complaints against USDA alleging discrimination. These lawsuits and complaints are of two types: program complaints and employment discrimination complaints. The program complaints are those involving members of the public who are the participants in USDA programs. The second type involve employees of the department who believe they have been victims of some type of discrimination. Today's hearing includes witnesses with information related to both of these types of discrimination. We will hear from Mr. John Boyd, President of the National Black Farmers Association; Mr. John Zippert, the Director of Operations for the Federation of Southern Cooperatives and chairman of the board of the Rural Coalition; Mr. Lawrence Lucas representing the USDA Coalition of Minority Employees; Mr. Harold Connor of Upper Marlboro, Maryland; Mr. Alexander Pires, an attorney in Washington, DC; and Ms. Juanita Carranza of Lambert, Montana. Our second panel will include Mr. Paul Fiddick, the Assistant Secretary for Administration, USDA; Mr. Charlie Rawls, the USDA General Counsel; Ms. Rosalind Gray, the director at the USDA Office of Civil Rights. On our first panel we will hear testimony from Mr. Roger Viadero, the USDA Inspector General, and from Mr. Bob Robertson of the U.S. General Accounting Office. As their testimony will indicate, this is a problem that has been thoroughly studied, and since 1997, the USDA Inspector General has performed at least eight reviews evaluating the department's efforts to solve the complex civil rights problems at the department. The General Accounting Office has also studied the issue and both OIG and GAO made numerous recommendations to help solve the problems. The most troubling aspect of these reports is how few of these deficiencies identified by either OIG or GAO in previous reports are ever corrected. Despite these reports and repeated efforts by USDA officials, the problems persist. Effective managers are not being hired to solve the problems and employees are merely being shuffled from agency to agency in an appearance of problem solving and management revamping. This missing link here seems to be one of accountability from the highest level of management to the county supervisor in the field who fails to adequately service an African American farmer's loan. Respect for the civil rights of all Americans is of paramount importance to me and all members of our committee. We are committed to doing all that we can to solve these problems at USDA. With this in mind, I would like our witnesses to focus on solutions to the problems and solutions that can bring accountability into the equation. [The prepared statement of Senator Lugar can be found in the appendix on page 62.] I want to before asking for the testimony of our witnesses to recognize that a new member of the committee is with us this morning, Governor Zell Miller of Georgia, now Senator Zell Miller of Georgia. He has been recently sworn in and has chosen to be a part of our group and we welcome him and are delighted that he is here at this hearing. Senator Miller, do you have any opening comment this morning? STATEMENT OF HON. ZELL MILLER, A U.S. SENATOR FROM GEORGIA Senator Miller. I will be very brief, Mr. Chairman, but I do want to say how very appreciative I am for your courtesy in allowing me to participate on this very important hearing even before becoming officially a member of this committee. According to the leadership staff, they should ratify that on the senate floor later today. I do not have to tell you, of course, of the long history of Georgia members on this committee, going all the way back to the 1870's with Senator John Gordon and, of course, Chairman Herman Talmadge whose portrait hangs in this room. Of course, my predecessor, Senator Coverdell. Agriculture is a huge industry in our state. It is the largest industry in our state. It accounts for one out of every six jobs and I am anxious to get started. This was my first choice of any committee to serve on. Senator Coverdell, I realize, had some big shoes that I will have to fill and although he was not from an agricultural area, he became a great student of agriculture and a real friend to the Georgia farmer and he will not soon be forgotten. I know that many members of this committee will miss his presence and I will try my best to fill those big shoes if I possibly can. I appreciate the chairman's willingness to address this issue. It is a very timely issue in Georgia and I look forward to learning more about it. I look forward to serving on this committee with you. The Chairman. Well, thank you very much, Senator Miller. We are really delighted that you are here and look forward to working with you. Let us recognize now Senator Thad Cochran for an opening committee. STATEMENT OF HON. THAD COCHRAN, A U.S. SENATOR FROM MISSISSIPPI Senator Cochran. Mr. Chairman, thank you very much for organizing this hearing. It is appropriate that we hear from those who have looked into some of these charges and allegations and complaints to give us an overview of what kind of situation exists at the department on this very important subject. Some of us have been concerned that we are seeing additional complaints brought now on this same subject, not only for minority farmers, African American farmers, but also those who claim to be discriminated against because of their economic class or their lack of understanding of the sophisticated rules and laws that govern farm programs. To the extent that they have been disadvantaged, and that is an interesting point of view to be asserted in a court of law as a basis for a claim for damages, but a suit has been filed or is being filed in my state on that basis now and it will be interesting to hear from some of our witnesses on that subject, too. Are the rules and the laws being administered in a way or are they per se discriminatory for those who have a lack of understanding or sophistication no matter what their color is or race? This is an interesting thing that has arisen in our state now. We have tried to make available through the Appropriations Committee funds for the department to administer the settlement of claims that have been brought. It will be interesting to hear if there are additional funds needed for those purposes. At this point, we are trying to resolve differences between the House and Senate agriculture appropriations bills. We are meeting with administration officials and I am not personally aware of any special need at this point for additional funds above and beyond what is in the Senate passed bill, but that would be something that we would like to have in this record as well, if a witness could make that available to us. Mr. Chairman, thank you very much for recognizing me and let me also congratulate the senator from Georgia on his selection of the Agriculture Committee. When I came to this committee, I remember Herman Talmadge was sitting in the chair Senator Lugar occupies now and he said and this is a unique committee. It is not a partisan committee. We do not have votes in this committee that are based on partisan considerations, but he had just been elected chairman on the basis of a partisan vote. He said it in a very convincing way and I believed him. [Laughter.] Senator Cochran. We welcome you, Senator. The Chairman. Well, I believed him, too. [Laughter.] The Chairman. Without carrying this on unduly, Senator Talmadge sat about here. Senator Leahy and I sat close to where the camera is at the back door and the table was that long and one of your predecessors, Senator Cochran, Senator Eastland of Mississippi, sat just to the right of Senator Talmadge and both were enveloped in smoke so that they were not easily seen by those of us nor could they see us apparently. [Laughter.] The Chairman. Times have changed and one of the nice changes has just entered the room likewise and that is Senator Gordon Smith of Oregon. He has selected this committee and we are grateful that is the case and he will be joining us today for this hearing. As Senator Miller has pointed out, there has not been official confirmation of these appointments, but it will occur later in the day and there is important work to be done. Senator Smith, we welcome you to the committee. Do you have any opening comment this morning? STATEMENT OF HON. GORDON SMITH, A U.S. SENATOR FROM OREGON Senator Smith. Just, Mr. Chairman, I will have a statement I would like to enter in the record and I would also just want to say what a privilege it is to be on your committee, the Agriculture Committee, and I can think of few industries closer to my own heart than agriculture and it remains a cornerstone of my state's economy and so if I can help those who make their living from the land by serving on this committee, if I can do that better, then I am thrilled to be here. I also express the concern of others here that when it comes to civil rights, that is another issue laid on top of a great industry. We got to make sure that it is enforced and people's rights are protected regardless of their race or their gender and so I am very pleased to be here this morning, sir. [The prepared statement of Senator Smith can be found in the appendix on page 66.] The Chairman. Thank you very much, Senator. Senator Conrad, do you have an opening comment? STATEMENT OF HON. KENT CONRAD, A U.S. SENATOR FROM NORTH DAKOTA Senator Conrad. Just very briefly, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for holding this hearing. Obviously, the cases that involve American Indians have a major impact in my state and I also want to thank the chairman for accommodating my request that we have as a witness somebody who is deeply involved in the filing of that litigation. I appreciate that accommodation very much and I also want to welcome Senator Miller and Senator Smith to this committee. You will find that this is a collegial committee and one where members do seek to work together. Obviously, there are regional differences. There are at times, although we hope not frequently, partisan differences, but most of all, this is a committee that does work together in a very productive way and we welcome you. We are glad you are here. The Chairman. Thank you very much, Senator Conrad. The Chairman. Now we would like to hear from the witnesses. Let me ask each of our witnesses in each of the three panels to attempt to summarize your comments in a 5-minute period, and I know this is difficult and the chair will try to be lenient so that you are not cutoff in mid-flight, but this will accommodate the possibility of raising questions by senators who are here and those that will be coming. We will have to take a break at ten o'clock for a roll call vote which has been declared and we know that a hiatus will occur at that point. We will proceed as far as we can until then and then we will not be interrupted after that first roll call vote. I would like to call now upon Mr. Viadero first and then Mr. Robertson second for your testimony. Mr. Viadero. STATEMENT OF ROGER VIADERO, INSPECTOR GENERAL, USDA, WASHINGTON, DC ACCOMPANIED BY JAMES R. EBBITT, ASSISTANT INSPECTOR GENERAL, USDA Mr. Viadero. Good morning, Mr. Chairman, and members of the committee. I appreciate the opportunity to be here today to testify about our work on the department's processing of complaints of discrimination. With me today is Mr. James R. Ebbitt, Assistant Inspector General for Audit. Mr. Chairman, I have prepared a statement which I would like to submit for the record and summarize here this morning. The Chairman. It will be published in full in the record. Mr. Viadero. Thank you, sir. Over the past three and a half years, the Office of Inspector General has performed eight reviews of the department's processing of civil rights complaints, all at the direction of Secretary Dan Glickman. Our reviews were completed over seven phases and resulted in eight reports and two internal memoranda, all of which contained a total of 119 recommendations. Our most recent reviews which constituted Phase VII of our report resulted in two reports issued simultaneously in March of this year. Both concerned the that Office of Civil Rights. One reported on the office's processing of complaints of discrimination in program benefits and the other on its processing of complaints in employment. The story these reports tell is one of a staff that is demoralized and inefficient and of a management that never got a firm hold on a system it inherited but that resisted recommendations for improvement. For the Office of Civil Rights, this has been a continuing story throughout all seven phases of our work. Complaints were not adequately tracked, case files were poorly maintained, and managers were not held accountable for deadline overruns. Open cases we reviewed dated back several years. Many of the problems we noted at the Office of Civil Rights during our most recent efforts were evident during the first review completed in February 1997. At that time, the Secretary had raised concerns about the integrity of the department's process for resolving discrimination complaints in farm programs. We found that the complaints system was in total disarray. Complaints were backlogged within the department and their status could not be determined. There were no controls to monitor and track complaints, no current regulations to standardize policy and operations, no effective leadership, and most of all no accountability. Our foremost recommendation to the Secretary at that time was to centralize control over the complaints process so that no agency was allowed to resolve complaints against itself. In response, the Secretary created the Office of Civil Rights. This office took control of the Farm Service Agency's program complaint system as well as its backlog of 530 complaints. Because there was no immediate action to clear this backlog, it continued to grow throughout 1997 and peaked at 1,088 complaints. This number came to be known as the original backlog of program complaints. While the office concentrated on reducing this backlog, it simultaneously created another volume of cases that exceeded the department's 180 day deadline for case resolution. By March of 2000, the office had reduced the original backlog to 35 cases, but faced a new backlog of an additional 454 cases. During our reviews of the Office of Civil Rights, it became clear that the office was not implementing critical recommendations we made. By our Phase V review, the office had not gained in efficiency and could not ensure that all complaints were being handled with due care. We concluded the office needed to transform its processing system completely and abandon component processing for case management processing. Assigning staff to processing components such as intake or adjudication resulted in fragmented workloads. Assigning staff to the entire processing cycle for each case promised a more cohesive system. Managers at the Office of Civil Rights agreed with this assessment, but by the time of our Phase VII review, they had yet to implement the case management processing system. Our concerns about the unreliability of the office's data base also continued through Phase VII. By then the office was providing the Secretary with statistics we found inaccurate as well as misleading. For example, these statistics suggested that the office processed a substantial number of complaints of employment discrimination made in the last three years. We found out these numbers--and that is shown on chart one, we found that these numbers included cases that other USDA agencies had processed. [Chart.] Mr. Viadero. The numbers allowed the office to assume credit in 1999 for cases it did not work as well as cases that were backlogged from previous years. Its own performance was even more erratic. Chart two. [Chart.] Mr. Viadero. Using the same flawed methodology, the office showed it had shortened its average processing time for employment complaints to 87 days. We found it actually took the office 222 days on average to process the complaints it accepted in 1999. We should also note that the so-called completion time of 222 days is based on only three cases. These three cases, the only ones the office both accepted and processed in 1999, were finally closed due to pending litigation and were never adjudicated by the Office of Civil Rights. Our Phase VII review showed little progress by the Office of Civil Rights in achieving the efficiency it needs to ensure the integrity of the complaints processing system. Unless the office implements a management plan that addresses effective leadership, customer focus and process reengineering, we question whether future complaints of discrimination will receive due care. In conclusion, Mr. Chairman, I would like to submit for the record a summary of the actions taken on the recommendations we made during our seven phases of reviews. I would like that submitted for the record, sir. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for the opportunity to present these issues. I would be happy to answer any questions you or other members of the committee may have at this time. The Chairman. Thank you very much, sir. The summary you have entered will be accepted in the record and published in full. Mr. Viadero. Thank you, sir. [The prepared statement of Mr. Viadero can be found in the appendix on page 72.] The Chairman. Mr. Robertson. STATEMENT OF BOB ROBERTSON, ASSOCIATE DIRECTOR, GENERAL ACCOUNTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON, DC ACCOMPANIED BY JERILYNN B. HOY, ASSISTANT DIRECTOR, RESOURCES, COMMUNITY AND ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT DIVISION, GENERAL ACCOUNTING OFFICE Mr. Robertson. Good morning, Mr. Chairman, members of the committee. Thank you for inviting us to be part of these important hearings on USDA's civil rights program. Our statement today is based on a report that we issued last year and I am very fortunate to have with me today Jeri Hoy, who was responsible for leading the work that supported that particular report. I better put these on. Who knows what words will come out of my mouth if I do not. In fact, we reported that USDA was not processing civil rights complaints in a timely manner. We found that USDA had one of the worst records of the Federal agencies that we examined as far as the timely processing of employment complaints. We identified four long-standing problems that were impeding USDA's efforts to improve timeliness. First, USDA's Office of Civil Rights had experienced constant management turnover and reorganizations. We pointed out that between October 1990 and January 1999, the Office of Civil Rights had eight different directors. That is almost averaging one new director each year. To add to this instability, the department's civil rights program had been reorganized three times between 1993 and 1999 resulting in numerous changes at the division and staff levels. Second major problem we noted related to inadequate staff and managerial expertise. In 1997, the Civil Rights Action Team, which was a team of agency officials appointed by the Secretary to review civil rights issues, reported that USDA employees generally viewed the department's civil rights offices as a dumping ground for many staff who had settled their Equal Employment Opportunity complaints. This issue of inadequate staff expertise surfaced throughout the review and this is something we may want to come back to later. The third problem cited in our report was the Office of Civil Rights lacked clear, up-to-date guidance and procedures to govern the receipt, handling and resolution of its program and employment complaints. Those types of procedures are particularly important in the type of environment that USDA's Office of Civil Rights was working in at that time which was constant change of management. The guidance is fundamental to promoting department wide compliance with and standardization and effective enforcement of civil rights statutes. Finally our report noted that poor working relationships and communications within the Office of Civil Rights and between that office and other USDA entities also hindered the timely processing of civil rights complaints. Now in addition to these four problems which tended to stall efforts to process complaints quickly, we also pointed out that the department was not consistently using alternative dispute resolution techniques such as mediation to address workplace and other disputes. Federal law and regulations encourage the use of these techniques in resolving Federal workplace disputes and it is a way of heading off disputes before they become formal complaints. We made four recommendations to the Secretary of Agriculture to address the problems identified in our report. In commenting on the draft of the report, the Director of the Office of Civil Rights stated that the management weaknesses we cited were real and that our recommended changes were necessary. Further, she said that USDA was actively moving toward full adoption and implementation of these recommendations. In preparation for this hearing, we reviewed the status of USDA's implementation of our recommendations. Although more than 19 months have passed since our report was issued, USDA has not fully implemented any of the four recommendations. USDA officials noted, however, that the agency has drafted a long- term improvement plan that is intended to systematically address the problems in the program. They expect to begin implementing the plan next month. In conclusion, Mr. Chairman, our 1999 report found that USDA's civil rights program had a long way to go before it achieved the Secretary's stated goal of making USDA the civil rights leader in the Federal Government. In recent months, USDA has taken some initial steps to address the department's chronic problems. Unfortunately, these plans will require long- term implementation including additional funding for hiring and training personnel. As a result, it appears as if the Secretary's goal, at least in the short term, remains illusive. That concludes my statement, Mr. Chairman, and I will be happy to take any questions. The Chairman. Thank you very much, Mr. Robertson. Your statement, of course, will be published in full as the case of Mr. Viadero. [The prepared statement of Mr. Robertson can be found in the appendix on page 114.] Senator Baucus. Mr. Chairman. The Chairman. Yes, Senator Baucus. Senator Baucus. Might I just have a statement introduced in the record at this point? The Chairman. Yes. Senator Baucus. I have a hearing that starts at 9:30. The Chairman. Please proceed. STATEMENT OF HON. MAX BAUCUS, A U.S. SENATOR FROM MONTANA Senator Baucus. I have a fairly long statement and it is pretty tough. It is tough because in my state in Montana there have been a lot of civil rights complaints and none of them have been resolved, none. I in my testimony, am going to give some of the same data that has already been given, but I just would like the department, those relevant in the department, to read my statement and to take it very seriously because in that statement I also ask that certain actions be taken including dates by when they believe some of these cases can be resolved. I am also going to give the department a weekly report of discrimination charges that I receive and I tell you it is many. There are many on that list. I apologize to a Montana witness that I will be unable to hear her testimony, but she has traveled by train to come here to plead her case and I hope she does not have to come to Washington, DC again because the record is just abysmal. I hope we can get it resolved. Thank you. The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Baucus. Your statement will be published in full at the beginning of the hearing with the opening comments of senators. [The prepared statement of Senator Baucus can be found in the appendix on page 68.] The Chairman. Now, I would like to ask all senators to restrain themselves likewise to five minutes in the question rounds. If there is need for a second round, we will do that, but the first time around, all of us try to stay within five minutes. Mr. Robertson, clearly you and Mr. Viadero have painted a very bleak picture of the reorganization of USDA's efforts. I am just curious. In your agency you take a look at various other agencies of government from time to time, I suspect, with regard to civil rights matters. Why is the USDA situation such a difficult one, both in terms of the numbers of cases that are currently being filed and the lack of resolution of the cases or the retention of personnel to do this work or to follow though by the management? In other words, is this a fair to middling situation in the Federal Government? Is it the bottom of the heap? What seemed to be the peculiar characteristics of this situation that we have not been able to grapple with? Mr. Robertson. Let me answer that question in two parts. Let us talk about some comparisons of USDA's record with other Federal agencies. We made those types of comparisons in our 1999 report and we have some preliminary information to update that. In that 1999 report, we looked at data from EEOC in terms of various performance indicators of processing employment complaints in a timely process. We looked at the percentage of cases that USDA or OCR investigated that were done within the stated 180 day EEOC timeframe. We found that USDA had one of the worst if not the worst records of the agencies that we looked at in regard to meeting that particular timeframe. That was by the way for 1997 statistics which were the most current available at the time we did our work. We updated that 1999 information in preparation for the hearings with some preliminary information from EEOC and basically found that in regard to that particular measure, the situation has not changed. They are still missing the mark, I believe, in about 99 percent of the--almost 100 percent of the cases in terms of conducting investigations within the 180 day timeframe. We also in the older report, in the 1999 report, looked at another performance measure again for processing employment complaints. That measure was basically the time it took to resolve complaints that did not involve EEOC hearings. Again USDA, based on 1997, EEOC data was on the bottom of the pile. The preliminary information for 1999 indicates that there has been some improvement, but USDA is still far above the EEOC set standards and far above the government wide averages. That is the first part of the question on how the USDA is doing in regard to other agencies as far as employment complaints go. In regard to the why what makes USDA different, why are they where they are--that is much more difficult question to answer. We have had, as you have pointed out, several years of people going in and looking at this program and finding all sorts of problems, having all sorts of suggested fixes, including the CRAT report came out in early 1997, I believe, with 90 some odd recommendations. Roger and his crew have come up with a number of reports with recommendations for fixes. We have come up with a report with recommendations for fixes. Obviously this program is not lacking for fixes or suggested fixes for these problems. If I were king for the day and I were to say this is what you need to focus on, I would focus on something that both the OIG and GAO and the CRAT report have highlighted--that is upgrading the level and quality of the skills and experience and expertise in the Office of Civil Rights. If you get the right people in the right positions with the right skills, they are going to identify the problems and take the appropriate actions to mitigate them. The Chairman. Let me just ask in other agencies where similar problems have occurred, is this the way they solve it? In other words, they found new people, upgraded the whole status of the movement and proceeded on as opposed to us hearing testimony that we are not getting very good people in this agency? In fact, there seems to be a deterioration in morale, a turnover of people. You know we have committee oversight hearings on this situation annually. I can remember almost one a year each time that I have been chairman and we come up with many of the same problems, maybe compounded in terms of greater numbers. We are oversight people. We cannot reach in as philosopher kings any more than you can to wrench out the agency. I am frustrated as to how to be effective. Given these annual hearings, the expositions, they are terrible. Why the embarrassment I would think to the Secretary, the people managing the department, would be profound. The changes have not occurred. This is why I wonder if there is something extraordinarily different about USDA? Simply overwhelmed by the nature of the work that occurs in agriculture or some other factor that we have not examined? Mr. Robertson. I believe that there are lessons that can be learned by looking at how other Federal agencies do their business and, in fact, sometime this fall the EEOC is coming out or one of its task forces is coming out with a report that basically is a lessons learned, a best practices type report. That could be a starting point for USDA to look at to see how it could address some of its problems. Ms. Hoy. Can I add something? Actually the Postal Service is one agency that we have heard cited as a turnaround agency, where they had a lot of serious problems, and what they did was to start using alternative dispute resolution in a very consistent way and what that allowed them to do was to resolve workplace disputes before they became formal complaints. They have been using outside mediators, mediators from outside of the Postal Service, for the last four or five years apparently and the program has been very successful in reducing the number of formal EEO complaints. The Chairman. There is constructive relief if you move in those directions? Ms. Hoy. Yes. The Chairman. Senator Conrad. Senator Conrad. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. How many staff are there in the Office of Civil Rights in USDA? Mr. Robertson. I can give you ball park. When we did our report, there are roughly 120 people. That has increased slightly since that time and the budget was somewhere in the neighborhood of 13 million. Senator Conrad. How many cases do they have annually? Is that fairly reflective up here? Looks to be roughly in the range 750 to 950 a year? Mr. Robertson. In terms of the caseload for employment complaints, I can talk about the number that they had on hand at the end of fiscal year 1999, which was 1,680, roughly 1,700. Senator Conrad. That would be the current backlog? Mr. Robertson. That would be the number that were---- Senator Conrad. Were pending? Mr. Robertson. Right. Senator Conrad. 1,700 at the end of 1999? Mr. Robertson. Right. Senator Conrad. I am interested in how many cases are brought a year? It looks to me up on your own chart here that you are looking on a yearly basis between 750 and 950. Would that be a correct conclusion from that chart? Mr. Viadero. Senator, that is not GAO's chart. That is the IG's chart and Mr. Ebbitt would be happy to answer that for you. Thanks. Mr. Ebbitt. Senator, that was the status for those years. The flaw in that particular chart on the left was what the Office of Civil Rights reported. Senator Conrad. Right. Mr. Ebbitt. What that reflects is cases essentially filed, not necessarily accepted. You have to draw that distinction because a filed case is not always accepted. Sometimes there is not enough information provided. The cases on the chart on the right is what we believe is what really happened in those particular years. Senator Conrad. I see. I see. Something less than? Mr. Ebbitt. That is correct. Senator Conrad. OK. Mr. Ebbitt. Also, Senator, this reflects program cases, not employee cases. Senator Conrad. Now, that is the next question I have. How many of these cases--how many of these---- Mr. Ebbitt. I need to correct that. That is employee cases. Senator Conrad. Oh, that is employee cases. Mr. Ebbitt. Yes. Senator Conrad. That was my next question. How many of these, what percentage of these cases are employee cases? How much of these cases are program cases? Mr. Ebbitt. Again, Senator, I have just been corrected. These are all employee cases that are reflected here. Senator Conrad. That does not tell us program cases? Mr. Ebbitt. Those charts do not. Senator Conrad. When you gave me the number of 1,700 pending at the end of 1999, did that include employee cases and cases that involved programs? Mr. Ebbitt. No, that was a figure that I gave---- Senator Conrad. That is just employee? Mr. Ebbitt. That was a figure that I gave and that was for employees. Senator Conrad. Employees. Can you tell me how many of those are within the department itself? Are these all within the department itself? Mr. Ebbitt. Yes, these are USDA employment complaints, according to CR data that is. Senator Conrad. This is truly extraordinary and they cannot resolve those with 180 days. All of these cases that are reflected on these charts involve employees within USDA itself. Has anybody got what the number of program cases are? Mr. Ebbitt. As of December 1, 1999, Senator, we counted 897 on the program side. Senator Conrad. That were pending? Mr. Ebbitt. That is correct. Senator Conrad. That was in addition to 35 that were still left over? Mr. Ebbitt. Thirty-three of the 35 have also been cleaned up as of March. Senator Conrad. Mr. Chairman, could I just offer I read something interesting in the paper this morning about what has been done within the District of Columbia by the new mayor. He has reached an agreement with about 90 percent, 80 or 90 percent of the middle managers, that they would get a pay raise in exchange for giving up their appeal rights in terms of termination. Anybody could be removed for cause or because they were not performing in some way on two weeks notice, and I tell you I know this is controversial and some will consider it something that threatens employees. I tell you, part of the problem here is it is very hard within the Federal Government to remove people who are not performing, to change managers when people are not performing. I wonder if this is not a case where it would be a good experiment to see if we could not in USDA in this office do something along the lines of what the mayor and this city has done? You know my experience as a manager has been when things are not working well, there is one reason. It is the people involved. Every time I had a management problem when I ran a large state agency I found it was because I had the wrong person in the wrong slot. It did not mean they were not a good person. Sometimes it just meant they just were not prepared for the job that they had. Phase VII, Phase VII, the Inspector General has told us here and nothing much is happening. I personally believe we are going to have to go to some new approach if we are going to solve this problem. The Chairman. I thank the senator. Senator Cochran. Senator Cochran. Mr. Chairman, my questions are going to go to the program discrimination issue and I wonder in the testimony from our first two witnesses, have the program discrimination cases not been resolved just like the employment cases have not been resolved? Are those numbers about the same? Mr. Ebbitt. Senator, as I was indicating, our last count of program cases is around 897. In our testimony, when we started this process in November 1997, the backlog at that time was 1,088. That is the so-called original backlog. Now that has been essentially worked down. They are very close to resolving or having dealt with most of those cases. Part of the problem in handling those cases then was the fact that you have more coming in and so the new ones as they were coming in, they were not being handled in a timely fashion because all the energies were being directed toward all those old ones. Roughly right now 897 is the number on the program side. Senator Cochran. Was there any effort made in your review of the GAO review to determine the adequacy of the remedy that is available for a program discrimination? What is your assessment of that? Mr. Ebbitt. Senator, we in--let me see which phase, I get my phases mixed up. In one of our reports we looked specifically at settlements, and was one of the charges made against the department is that once the settlement has been agreed to by the department and the complainant, then the settlement action was not always carried out. We found a mixed bag, if you will, in that particular arena. We did find evidence that settlements had been achieved and that actions were being carried forward. We did find some delays in carrying that agreed to process to fruition in some instances, but the real issue there was there were not that many settlement cases. A lot of cases just hadn't reached the end of the process. Senator Cochran. What about GAO? Did you undertake an assessment of that? Mr. Robertson. Yes. Our work looked primarily at the timeliness of the process itself, but I would like to go back to your earlier part of your question and some of your questions on the statistics and just make a comment. In preparing for this hearing, we tried to get some statistics that would give us an indication, a flavor of whether the timeliness of processing the program complaints, in particular the program complaints, had improved or, just exactly what the status was. While it seems that OCR has statistics, I am not comfortable in using those statistics right now to give you a flavor of what the progress has been and the OIG would be in the same boat. Again, it is an important thing to remember that the statistics that we are talking about here are kind of iffy at best and that is unfortunate. Senator Cochran. Was any conclusion reached by either investigative agency about whether the law ought to be changed or improved in any way that governs the handling of these cases? Is there something that we as a legislative committee should consider in terms of amendment to current law on this subject, the program complaint side I am addressing again? Mr. Viadero. Senator Cochran, I would like to answer your question and also get back to what Senator Conrad mentioned. You know as a manager, it is accountability. It is timeliness. It is not only doing the right things but doing things that are right and we find an absence of all of this in the operation of this office. Senator Cochran. What about the GAO on that subject? Mr. Robertson. We have no recommendations directed to legislative changes. Senator Cochran. One thing I have heard just from people who have reported to me some personal experiences in dealing with the department is the complexity of the complaint process. Is this something that in your view ought to be considered or addressed by the Congress or is there an adequate process, it is just the administration of the process that has broken down? Ms. Hoy. My thoughts are that it is primarily the administration of the process. I was thinking of the question that Chairman Lugar asked earlier about why are things so bad at USDA and it just strikes me that there are some agencies have poor personnel, others have poor systems, others have poor data, but with USDA it is across the board and that is why. That is the problem. It is just pervasive problems in almost every single area and it is hard to know where to start. Senator Cochran. My last question is provision for payment of attorney's fees; is this taken care of in the law adequately? Do attorneys get their fee from the settlement itself or is this paid over and above the reimbursement to a successful complainant? I wonder what the contingent fee basis. You know we had a lawyer down home and we said what is his contingent fee? What does that mean? He said, well, if he loses, he does not get anything. If he wins, you do not get anything. [Laughter.] Senator Cochran. I am just curious. I want to be sure that is not the situation here with these cases. Mr. Viadero. It is my understanding, Senator, that it is both ways. We have instances of both the contingent fee basis and a fixed fee basis. Senator Cochran. Thank you. The Chairman. Thank you very much. Senator Miller. Senator Miller. I do not have any questions. The Chairman. Senator Smith. Senator Smith. Mr. Chairman, I in preparation of this hearing, we contacted our staff in Oregon to find out what complaints they are having and talked to the local chapter of the NAACP, and if there is a positive note, at least in Oregon this is not a glaring problem, but as I contrast that with Mr. Viadero's statement, and I want to read it for emphasis: Throughout the seven phases of review the Office of Civil Rights has been a portrait of a dysfunctional agency. Its staff has remained demoralized through three major reorganizations. Management's attempts to improve the working environment have been perfunctory and its attitude toward accountability have been unenthusiastic. The case files were in no better condition in March 2000 than they were in February 1997. I guess do we need to start over? It sounds like you have got the wrong people and maybe also the wrong systems. That is what I am reading, Mr. Viadero. Mr. Viadero. We are not taking exception to any of that, Senator. We also would like to add we have all of this on our web site, all seven phases which would include Phase III which is 18 linear inches and is county by county throughout the United States on their civil rights statistics. I would like to add, though, when we walked in the first time, we found, by chance some files that were laying in a file drawer for years. Nobody ever looked at them. We actually had to construct an inventory of case files. There were files and there were papers in these files from Mr. Smith, Mr. Cochran, Mr. Lugar, Mr. Conrad, Mr. Miller right across the board in one file. The files had never been properly maintained. We have a picture of their automated filing system. It was a mobile filing system. They had a push cart from a Safeway store. The files were in total disarray. Now this is not a civil rights function. This is a basic management function of an office. I know that Mr. Conrad is a kindred spirit in accounting and you just do not run books and records this way. It is not a way to run a business and this is a business like anything else and it has to be accountable or we find bad business practices, if you will, and lack of accountability. Senator Smith. Can you correct me if I am wrong if I am misunderstanding the condition in the Pacific Northwest. Is there a problem there? Mr. Viadero. Not that we are aware of. Senator Smith. Have you located where the problems are most egregious? Is there an area of the country? Have you pinpointed it? Is it in Washington, DC? Is it in the Northeast? Is it the Midwest? Where are the problems the most egregious? Mr. Viadero. When I got back to our sampling in Phase II, and we did four certain areas, geographic areas of the country, such as Oklahoma because of its Native American concentration, such as San Joaquin County, California for having the only county with Asian farmer concentration. We did the greater Southwest basically from California right into your state, Senator Cochran, Mississippi, looking for Hispanics, of course, the Old Dominion, the greater South with its on the historically black farms. Senator Smith. Are you finding that where there are problems are they more personnel or are they more systems? Are they systemic problems or are they personnel problems? Mr. Viadero. We found no examples of systemic discrimination in any of our reviews. Senator Smith. Is it just personnel who just do not give a rip about civil rights? Mr. Viadero. Well, it is important to note that the county system, the county executive who is hired by thr county committee who in turn is elected by local farmers, how are you going to have discrimination if the farmers in the country are voting for the leader of the county. That is why we say it is not systemic. By the way, these people are not federal employees. They are quasi-government employees and they are outside the normal books and records of the department, if you will, and not subject to the merit systems that we have within the civil service. Senator Smith. Ms. Hoy mentioned that the Postal Service was an agency in difficulty and is the model you are pursuing to fix USDA; is that accurate or are there other agencies in the government that are really good examples of the enforcement of civil rights laws that we ought to be looking at here for USDA? Mr. Robertson. I think Jeri was alluding to the fact that there are some other Federal agencies that had some success particularly with alternative dispute resolution and Veterans Administration was one of those. I believe the Air Force is another. Senator Smith. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Chairman. Let me just followup a little bit on Senator Smith's question, and that is in the testimony that I see down here on county committees, problems and elections, a suggestion is that in the spirit of the Voting Rights Act, county committee procedures are seriously flawed. Voting participation averaged ten to 15 percent of eligible voters, only 5 percent participating in one South Carolina county. Up to 25 percent of the ballots disqualified because they were not filled out correctly and so forth. Now, Mr. Viadero, you are saying many of these discrimination complaints arise from decisions of these county committees; is that correct? Mr. Viadero. That is my understanding, sir, yes. The Chairman. That in trying to parse this situation a little bit, we have USDA down here in Washington with civil service people, merit and so forth, and we have USDA out in the field in various ways. As you point out, you have sort of a democratic system here which county committees are elected and, therefore, the voting procedures or how people come on to those committees or how people are kept out of the committees comes into play, I suspect. This may be a more complex situation then in trying to evaluate, getting back to Senator Conrad's suggestion that as in the case of the mayor of Washington, DC, you take some stringent action so that people can be fired and removed and move out of the picture. What we are seeing here, I suspect, is the question at the grassroots in many cases in which people have been elected quite apart from these folks down at USDA in the civil service or many of us around this table. Now how do you begin to deal with all of that? Mr. Viadero. Well, this will reference now back to Senator Smith's question so far as what we see on a systemic basis. Let me give you an example of how this system works. Mr. Lugar, since you are the chairman here, we are going to make you the CED, and Mr. Cochran is his outreach coordinator, and Mr. Cochran--I am sorry--Mr. Conrad as a farmer. Well, the chairman likes Mr. Conrad. OK. Mr. Cochran, the outreach---- Senator Conrad. You got a good start. [Laughter.] Mr. Viadero. I need help wherever I can get it. Mr. Cochran, the outreach coordinator, will call Mr. Conrad up and say, Mr. Conrad, the final date for filing these applications is a week from today. Now, Mr. Smith, Mr. Lugar is sort of neutral on you. Mr. Cochran just does not call you. You have been given your packet with the dates on it. That is the type of impetus that we see. Now can you say that that is systemic, that that is intentional? I dare say you could not. We have not been able to find it. That is probably the most egregious thing/example of what we found and that is very simplistic. Again, to quote a great guy, my son, ``it ain't rocket science,'' and he is a rocket scientist. It is the best I can give you. The Chairman. Senator Conrad. Senator Conrad. Mr. Chairman and those who are here as witnesses, I go back to every time as an administrator I encountered a problem like this, it went right to the question of the people that I had in the positions of responsibility. I found systemic problems. It is amazing how they get resolved when you have the right people in the right positions because they figure out how to change the system to make it work. You know I have been told we heard this morning that this office has been used as a dumping ground. That is the reputation of this office. That disgruntled employees have been moved into these positions and now we got a situation where the job is not getting done. Now the evidence is overwhelming. The job is not being performed. I do not want to be harsh, but, when you have gone through seven phases of review and nothing is happening to fix it, somebody has got to be held accountable. As a manager, I would hold the people who are in positions of responsibility accountable. They are the ones who have the obligation to produce results and they have failed, and they have failed miserably and there can no longer be any question about it. I would advocate that we get new leadership and they have the power to get people in positions of responsibility who do the job. That is, an obligation we have as an oversight committee. We cannot be the administrators obviously. We should send a clear message that this is it. Now we have all the reviews that we need to have. There is a failure. The people who are there in positions of responsibility ought to be held accountable. That is not being unfair. That is not being harsh. That is setting standards and setting goals and holding people accountable. Could I just close with a question to Mr. Viadero? What would you do in this circumstance? If you had the power to try to clean up this mess, what would you do? What are the two or three steps that you would take immediately? Mr. Viadero. Well, some of the steps have been taken in the very recent past by Assistant Secretary for Administration Fiddick whom you are going to hear from on the next panel. He appointed a fellow by the name of David Winningham as Deputy Director for Civil Rights, as the title is called, in the Office of Civil Rights, and Mr. Winningham, much to his credit, has gone in and established some basic management controls and met with people and is getting this backlog down. I do not think we can say scrap the system, scrap the people. Again, it is a people issue. OK. Mr. Winningham appears to have the right mix, if you will, of people skills and management skills and also the support of the Assistant Secretary. Senator Conrad. Does he have the ability to move out people who just are not performing? You know sometimes you just have people who are not performing and does he have the ability to remove people who are not performing? Mr. Viadero. I am assuming that Mr. Fiddick would support him if that is the final decision that they make. The Chairman. Thank you very much. Are there other questions of this panel by senators? If not, we thank you very much for your testimony and we hope that the next panel will have some satisfying answers and then we will have a third panel of witnesses that we have already mentioned. The chair would like to mention also that there will not be vote at 10 a.m., and so that is gratuitous so that we can proceed without interruption. The Chairman. We now have Mr. Paul Fiddick, the USDA Assistant Secretary for Administration, accompanied by Ms. Rosalind Gray, Director of the Office of Civil Rights, and Mr. David Winningham, Chief Operating Office of the Office of Civil Rights; and Mr. Charles R. Rawls, USDA General Counsel. We welcome the next panel and I will ask you to testify in the order that I introduced you, first of all, Mr. Fiddick and Mr. Rawls. Please try to summarize your comments in five minutes more or less, and then we will have more extended conversation as questions come from senators. Mr. Fiddick. STATEMENT OF PAUL FIDDICK, USDA ASSISTANT SECRETARY FOR ADMINISTRATION, WASHINGTON, DC ACCOMPANIED BY ROSALIND GRAY, DIRECTOR, OFFICE OF CIVIL RIGHTS, AND DAVID WINNINGHAM, CHIEF OPERATING OFFICER, OFFICE OF CIVIL RIGHTS Mr. Fiddick. Thank you, Chairman Lugar. We have a longer consolidated statement for Ms. Gray, Mr. Rawls and myself that I would like to have entered into the record. The Chairman. It will be made part of the record in full. Mr. Fiddick. Thank you, sir. Good morning, Mr. Chairman, members of the committee. Thank you for inviting me before your committee today. It was almost exactly a year ago that I appeared before this committee for my confirmation hearing. I was sworn in as Assistant Secretary for Administration on November 16 of last year. Although new to the department, I have become well acquainted with USDA's troubled civil rights history. The Secretary and I believe that we are making some progress addressing the circumstances that give rise to complaints, on the one hand, and in processing the complaints we receive, on the other. Nevertheless, we are humbled by the task that remains. Beginning with our Secretary, we strive to hear the message that employees and customers are sending us. The Secretary, those of us here, and administrators of our USDA agencies have maintained an ongoing dialog with groups and individuals representing employees, customers and other stakeholders. We have honestly endeavored to maintain an open door policy. Last year, we received 1,261 program discrimination complaints. We are projecting about 650 complaints in fiscal year 2000. In fact, we will receive fewer program and employment complaints this year than any year since 1997. Let me be clear. Acts of discrimination and the complaints they represent are an anathema and unacceptable to USDA in any number. Over the past five years, USDA has closed an average of about 750 EEO complaints a year. Those are employment complaints. This is more than all but three other cabinet agencies. Unfortunately, we have been receiving an average of about 850 EEO complaints a year for the same period. The time it takes us to process complaints is inexcusably long. If justice delayed is justice denied, then we are not doing justice by our customers and employees. Now here is what we are doing about it. Mr. Chairman, as you may remember from my confirmation hearing, I am new to government. I spent more than 25 years of my career in private industry, most of that time in top management. When I arrived at USDA, Secretary Glickman instructed me to use my business experience to develop an enduring solution to the operational end of our civil rights problems. I approached this assignment as I would a business problem, one where an operating unit was not performing up to expectations. I recommended and the Secretary approved a plan to create a new position in the Office of Civil Rights that I borrowed from the private sector, that of chief operating officer. This divides Civil Rights into two distinct areas. One, complaints processing and administration headed by the COO, a career senior executive; and two, the policy, regulatory and legislative functions led by the senior political official. The latter role is filled by our Civil Rights Director, seated on my left, Rosalind Gray. In April I named David Winningham, a 28 year USDA employee with an extensive management background, to the new COO position. He is seated on my right. Both of these positions report directly to me as Assistant Secretary. The past five months, we have set about developing a long- term improvement plan, a zero-based approach to determining the staff and time resources necessary to fundamentally and permanently improve our civil rights operations. The plan is a comprehensive collaborative work that includes efficiency studies and benchmarking to the best practices of other Federal agencies. The draft management plan was delivered in August and to the extent of our resources the finished plan will be rolled out in the next 30 days. Secretary Glickman has made it abundantly clear that in the area of civil rights, the status quo is simply unacceptable. We are using all of our intellect and our energies to solve these historic problems in a way that will survive beyond this administration and that will provide responsible social justice for USDA employees and the public today and in the future. Thank you, sir. [The prepared statement of Mr. Fiddick can be found in the appendix on page 124.] The Chairman. Thank you very much, Mr. Fiddick. Mr. Rawls. STATEMENT OF CHARLES R. RAWLS, GENERAL COUNSEL, USDA, WASHINGTON, DC Mr. Rawls. Good morning, Mr. Chairman. I am pleased to be here this morning. During the 2-years since this committee recommended my confirmation as general counsel, I have spent a considerable amount of my time, probably the majority of my time, working on civil rights issues, helping the Secretary carry out his mission, his vision to address and improve civil rights at the department. I certainly share his strong commitment to civil rights for all employees and program participants and I believe as the Secretary does that USDA can and should become the civil rights leader in the Federal Government. Obviously, from what you have heard this morning, we have a long way to go. My office acts as the Secretary's legal staff. We advise the Secretary and agency personnel on the full range of legal issues. Our lawyers provide assistance on everything from procurement to regulatory process, a statutory interpretation, any number of things. We do represent the Secretary in some legal proceedings, provide legal opinions for the department, that sort of thing, but USDA is represented in the Federal courts, of course, by the Department of Justice. Of note to the committee, as recommended by the Civil Rights Action Team, the CRAT report, our office did establish a special division devoted to Civil Rights. It is staffed with a small but experienced and talented group of lawyers who are working very hard on a broad range of legal matters associated with civil rights. This effort was greatly supported by the Secretary and, of course, the Congress. Senator Cochran did provide some additional funding to staff the office which is very difficult, as this committee knows in this time of tight discretionary budgets, but I would want all of you to know that the Civil Rights Division is staffed by individuals with outstanding records, excellent credentials and impressive experience. They are working very hard to see that our civil rights laws and policies are carried out in an effective and efficient manner at USDA. We accept our responsibility seriously and with enthusiasm with respect to civil rights, but our duties are not easy. We often must raise difficult questions. We take unpopular positions. We make hard decisions which quite often put us at odds with someone, either within the department or outside of USDA, but the requirements of the law, fundamental elements of fairness and a concern for the due process rights of all concerned will continue to guide our every action. Our statement discusses briefly the settlement of the Pigford class action and I will just touch on that for a moment. This was a class action brought on behalf of African American farmers throughout the country. It is indeed an historic settlement because it offers the promise of resolution and closure to so many who have felt that they were wronged for so long. As a staff member in the House of Representatives during the 1980's, I became keenly aware of many of the complaints of discrimination at USDA by African American farmers. These complaints were deeply felt but difficult to prove. Many of the complaints were not meaningfully addressed or were certainly not addressed in a manner that reassured the complainant that his or her case had really been heard or decided on the merits. In conjunction with efforts by the Congress to waive the statute of limitations, it did make a settlement of this case possible. I believe that on balance the settlement provides a workable solution to some very difficult problems which had to be resolved in a legal forum which presents its own difficulties. It will provide an opportunity that many felt that they never had to be fairly heard. Under Track A of the settlement, some 20,000 individuals will have their claim reviewed by an objective neutral third party. Far about 18,000 claims have been adjudicated. 11,000 or a little better than 60 percent have been successful for the claimants. The Track B arbitrations handled under this settlement are under the exclusive jurisdiction of the Department of Justice and they are handling those cases. We are now working very hard with the court, the court appointed monitor, the Department of Justice, the plaintiff lawyers, to see that the settlement is implemented in a fair, efficient and timely manner. It has been a challenge, I will tell you. The number of class members turned out to be much, much greater than expected. Simply establishing the process and dealing with the class of this size has been a monumental effort for everyone. We will continue to see this as a challenge. We will rise to meet that challenge and find ways to implement the settlement in a fair way and in a way that is helpful and fair to the claimants to the maximum extent possible. Mr. Chairman, many employees and managers at USDA do share the Secretary's commitment to civil rights, as I do. Some are still insensitive to what improving civil rights means and that remains one of the challenges for the future. Some very good things are happening as discussed in our statement. In the last five years, the Farm Service Agency has increased its lending to African American farmers by 67 percent. It has also worked hard to improve the diversity composition of its county committees. The department has focused new attention on small farms, farm workers and the disabled. Our food safety message, for example, is going out in four languages now besides English, to 183 African American newspapers. After much give and take, the Forest Service working with the Department of Justice and USDA lawyers has settled a class action brought by a group of women in one of its regions. A number of agencies are doing much better outreach and undertaking cooperative efforts with minority groups including Native Americans. Does USDA yet have a long way to go with improving civil rights? The answer is yes. One thing we have learned is that civil rights, which many times translates into the more easily understood concepts of good customer service and good employee relations, requires constant attention and improvement. Mr. Chairman, I am happy to answer any questions at the appropriate time. The Chairman. Thank you very much. Mr. Fiddick, let me just ask for the benefit of all of us trying to understand the kinds of cases that are here--we have heard the statistics about the numbers and in the last panel I suggested some of the problems may come at the county committee level. Even Mr. Rawls has suggested that the diversity of county committees has been one of the objectives, but are there any typical groups of cases? Are largely these cases employees who have been discharged who feel that they have been unfairly treated or employees who did not receive promotions who felt that they had been unfairly treated? I am just trying to get some idea of who is filing these hundreds of cases and why there seems to be such an incidence of this at USDA in comparison with other agencies? Mr. Fiddick. Well, with your permission, sir, I would like to ask Ms. Gray to answer that question as the director of our Office of Civil Rights since early in 1998. She has had a great deal more experience with that firsthand than I have. The Chairman. Right. Ms. Gray. Thank you. On the program side, the majority of the complaints are filed by minority persons, African American males, women, some Hispanic, some couples and also couples because the woman was handling the business at the time. The complaints usually are against--most of them are against Farm Service Agency, and what they are about are generally the denial of an application for an operating loan or for ownership loan or for the denial of restructuring of financing, when the person thought he or she were eligible for it, and in the case of disaster payments, frequently the essence of the complaint relates to the refusal to provide an application. On the program side, that would include the majority of our cases. On the employee side---- The Chairman. Let me just ask here, Ms. Gray, these would appear to be fairly open and shut cases, would they not, in terms of fact? Either you got the application or you did not get the application or you qualified for the loan and their criteria or you did not? In other words, what we are hearing is these cases take months, maybe even a year, to resolve, which, of course, does mean justice denied if it was an emergency loan or a disaster payment at the time, but maybe I am mischaracterizing and making too simple what is much more complex. Ms. Gray. It is relatively simple, but we do not process in the short or reasonable period of time quite frankly. There is no other way to say that. It is not simple because usually there are two sides of the story and then there is also the truth, which involves not only doing a field investigation and talking to the complainant, but it also requires a very extensive review of the record and the application for the particular benefit. Part of our problem in the Office of Civil Rights is that we do not always have the skills to review the farm application package to process in a timely fashion so, yes, it is simple, but it is not quite simple and there are many programs in the Farm Service Agency, and we are not always quick in our review and we do try to be careful. We also have a number of housing complaints and generally the housing complaints are about the denial of the loan for purchase of a house or some housing facility. That is the easy side. The difficult side is certainly the employee side. We have every range of complaint that you can imagine would happen in the workplace. We have sexual harassment complaints. We have certainly racial discrimination, Hispanic, African American, some Native American. We have complaints about discrimination and promotions and training. You name it. If it is an aspect of the employee relationship, there is a complaint about it. The Chairman. Once again why so much of this at USDA as opposed to other agencies? Ms. Gray. Well, the number of complaints at USDA based on the number of employees is not that much different than many agencies. USDA is slower in processing its employee complaints than most agencies. Our agency that has the largest number of complaints is certainly the Forest Service and the working situation for the employees in the Forest Service, some of them in isolated camp, certainly give rise to the complaints. That, then again, makes it more complicated for us to bring about the appropriate investigation because some of the employees are in isolated camps. I think that for Farm Service where we have county employees, again, the local culture contributes very heavily to the workplace and what goes on in a county community is reflected in the workplace and that gives rise to a number of complaints. We are because we are so large and spread throughout the country a department that very much reflects our customers and to the extent that there is discrimination, and there is discrimination in these counties and in these workplaces, we get complaints about them. The Chairman. Mr. Fiddick, is one possible alleviation of your problem a group of skilled personnel who are conversant with complex agricultural programs or those who can go to the site and say this person is qualified for the loan or this person is not? In other words, just trying to break through the clutter of all this, what sort of people do you need, what type of authority for them to go to the site and get on with it? Mr. Fiddick. No, I believe you are entirely right, Senator, that there is a certain skills deficit that has been documented in the Office of Civil Rights. We did not know exactly how many persons that represented, whether those persons were incapable or whether they were simply playing out a position. As a part of the long-term improvement plan, the management plan that has been drafted, one essential element of that is to take a skills inventory of the personnel we have on board currently and what the organization needs to meet its requirements. We will conform one to the other in an appropriate way. The Chairman. Let me mention that Senator Charles Robb of Virginia has given a statement that I will make a part of the record. He has been deeply interested in this issue for a long time, and Senator Robb has asked two questions, one to Mr. Fiddick and one to Mr. Rawls, that I will submit to you so that you might give written responses for our record if you would. He has been in contact, as I understand with both of you or your offices as recently as July 11, and so I mention that as background for his inquiry in terms of followup. [The prepared statement of Senator Robb can be found in the appendix on page 234.] The Chairman. Senator Conrad. Senator Conrad. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank the witnesses as well. Mr. Fiddick, we certainly have high regard for you and your background and it sounds to me as though you have got a plan to improve things. I have certainly heard very good things about Mr. Winningham and your background and the level of intensity you bring to trying to fix these problems. Mr. Fiddick. Thank you, sir. Senator Conrad. Can you tell us what you see as the major hurdles to be jumped here? You know as I was saying earlier, every time I have had a management problem, and this sounds to me like a management problem, I have generally found it is people. I have got the wrong people in the wrong slots. It does not mean they are not good people. Just sometimes you got the wrong people in the wrong slots. Sometimes you got people who just do not have the right attitude. They are not can-do people. You know they got a million reasons why something cannot be done. I remember very well one time I had a serious problem in a major part of my department and after listening for about eight months to all the reasons things could not be done, I realized I just had a guy with the wrong attitude. I got him out of there and I got somebody with the right attitude and it is amazing how all the problems got cleaned up very quickly. As you diagnose it, Mr. Fiddick, what is the primary problem or problems and how soon can they be resolved? Is there something that we can do that would help you and then I would have the same question for Mr. Winningham? Mr. Fiddick. I agree with your premise that there are few things in business or government that cannot be solved with the right management put in the right position empowered to act. I agree to some degree with what the previous witness from the GAO said that the problems in the Civil Rights Office have been systems and process and people and more or less all of the above. The hurdle that we have, the height of the hurdle is all of the work that needs to be done. That is the bad news. The good news is that it can be done with the right management in the right place and I believe that we have begun to make those strides. You fix the problem a day at a time and a hire at a time and the new structure we have in the Civil Rights Office with Rosalind handling policy and regulatory and David handling operations is a good one. We will bring on board before the end of the month a Deputy Director for Employment, which is an important position in our operation, and the person that we have hired is a career civil rights professional in that job. As the IG and the GAO has correctly reported, there has been a tremendous amount of turnover in this office since it was reconstituted in 1997. I do not know that anyone is to blame for that, but it certainly has been to the detriment of the efficiency of the office and the customers of the office. We can begin to fix that with each new hire and are. Senator Conrad. Mr. Winningham, what would be your response to that? Mr. Winningham. My response is that the Office of Civil Rights came together very fast under a great number of adversities. The staff has never been pulled together in a coherent manner. The skills are lacking in certain areas such as programs which when you are looking at farm loan programs or rural housing or the various programs which complaints are filed against, having the rights skills and knowledge to be able to evaluate the issues that are associated with those complaints, we just do not have that. We have a system where the files are not well put together and so we all have to look at our processes, we have to look at our skills mix, we have to look at the levels of authority and we have to look at the amount of resources. We also did a time study to take a look at how long it takes for each process of the complaint process to perform and we found that we are lacking in several areas. It is a comprehensive amount of things that must be done if we are to get out of this and the one that is big on top of all of this is the inventory of complaints that we have. My view is that we have to put together a project that would eliminate the inventory of complaints that we have right now as well as the new complaints coming through the system during that period. That when we get through it, we would be even. In my mind, that is significant if we are ever going to get our arms around this. Senator Conrad. You know it sounds to me as if you have got a backlog here that has got to be addressed and obviously you got the program side, you got the employee side. Is part of the solution here using alternative dispute resolution, to use mediation to try to get through these cases more quickly? Mr. Winningham. That is not going to be the solution for what we have except by the time it gets to us, we are under the 180 day clock that is ticking where we have to take it through the due process. ADR is best before you ever get to that point. There are cases when you are getting into the resolution initiative that would lend themselves to ADR while it is in the formal complaint process. Senator Conrad. Can I ask Mr. Rawls just a question? That is you have got now class action suit that involved the black farmers, the Pigford case. You have got resolution there. You have got the Keepseagle case that involves Native Americans. Are these cases largely the same kind of cases in your view? Are they different kinds of cases? Are you treating them the same or are you treating them differently? If you are treating them differently, why? Mr. Rawls. Senator, I am going to disappoint you and give you a very bureaucratic answer, but it is really the only one I can give you, which is that Keepseagle is in active litigation being handled by the Department of Justice. You know motions have been filed. I really cannot discuss that case beyond that. I would offer to talk with the Department of Justice and visit with you or your staff about it, but I really do not think it is appropriate to try to make comparisons or otherwise talk about the case in this forum. Senator Conrad. I would like the opportunity to talk to you about it and Justice Department as well on those fundamental questions that I have asked here. How are they viewed? Are they viewed as largely similar or in some way different? I can just tell you that within the Native American community, there is a perception at least that there is differential treatment going on here and that is a great concern within the Native American community. I thank the chairman. The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Conrad. Senator Lincoln. Senator Lincoln. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, certainly for holding this hearing which is very important to my constituents in Arkansas and, if I may, I would just like to make a few comments before I ask questions since I was tardy, and I apologize for that. The Chairman. Please do. STATEMENT OF HON. BLANCHE LINCOLN, A U.S. SENATOR FROM ARKANSAS Senator Lincoln. As the youngest woman in the history of our country to serve in the U.S. Senate, I certainly understand how important it is that the principles of equality and opportunity apply to all Americans. I found myself in the same position that many of the complainants have in your cases. I feel that Congress definitely has a duty to ensure that discrimination does not prevent anyone from realizing their full potential or their dream and I believe that is why we are here today. I also believe that government assistance should be equally available to all citizens of this country and it is unbelievably disturbing to me that we even have a reason to hold this hearing, but I appreciate the previous panel of witnesses and certainly your willingness to be here. There are certainly several allegations, as Senator Conrad brings up other issues and other cases, problems that we all be discussing today and in further discussions, but there is one in particular, the Pigford v. Glickman case, the class action suit, otherwise known as the black farmers case, that has caused great frustration to a number of my constituents in Arkansas. In 1998, I contacted by letter Secretary Glickman and President Clinton and the administration to handle this case as expeditiously and as fairly as possible. I could certainly foresee the problems that were brewing. I was very delighted when Ms. Gray came to my office to visit with me during this year's session to talk about some of the frustrations that had escalated in Arkansas and the concerns that we had. However, I am extremely concerned about the claims approval process that was established by the consent decree that was signed by USDA and the lawyers representing the black farmers. I certainly recognize that some of that is out of your hands at this point. I also find that to be a bureaucratic answer as well in many ways. I understand that that decree the Department of Justice is the official government entity presiding over that case. They have also been required to contract all claims reviews out to private organizations, which I have had a difficult time in understanding and in getting in contact with. The private entity reviews data that is collected by USDA to determine whether a claim is potentially valid. These private entities have control over that. Once a black farmer's claim has been designated as potentially valid, it is then referred to a second private entity which approves or dismisses this claim. I am assuming that I am representing the process correctly. I have kind of filtered through as much of it as I can. The system was immediately overwhelmed by an unexpected number of claims, as you all have mentioned earlier. Attorneys for the black farmers had estimated that around 400 claims would be filed and instead more than 20,000 black farmers have logged discrimination claims with the court established claims evaluator. As a result, I am hearing that claims have been delayed and often handled without proper consideration, a lot of what everyone else in this room has been hearing and certainly you have as well. I have heard from many farmers who feel their valid claims have been denied while others have been approved even though the two complainants' histories are very similar, side by side individuals living next door to one another, who have almost identical situations. The court appointed monitor in this case, Randi Roth, opened an office in Memphis, Tennessee, which we were pleased because it would be in close proximity to the many cases that we had in Arkansas and to allow easier access to the black farmers. Yet I am still receiving complaints that many farmers cannot even get someone with authority over their claims to return their phone calls. To me that is inexcusable. Arkansas farmers often refer to USDA as a bureaucrat's endless bureaucracy and that is why it is so disheartening for us to get a bureaucratic answer. I certainly look forward to working with you all, but I do have a great deal of questions in terms of how my constituents are being handled. Perhaps you can give me some idea or indication the approved number of 1,152 claims in this particular case, in the Track A claims, how many of those have been paid? I am also getting the reaction that they are getting a judgment but they are not getting paid. In your opinion, what can be done to expedite the review process for these claims approvals or their dismissals? Do you have recommendations for those independent entities that are out there handling this? From your management standpoint, is there a better way that the private entities could be handling this and a better way for you all to work with them? Mr. Fiddick. I think that General Counsel Rawls probably can best field this question. Mr. Rawls. Well, I will say a few things. Pieces of the process are working quite well, but I would reiterate what I said earlier, which you alluded to, with 20,000 claims this has been a monumental undertaking. Specifically, to some of your questions, the third party adjudications, the review of the actual claim on its merits, under the settlement, was a very important aspect of the settlement, to move that out of the government, out of the department. Senator Lincoln. Right. Mr. Rawls. Hopefully instill some confidence in the claimants that, as I said earlier, they got heard one time. Maybe they do not prevail, but they got heard. Those adjudications, while they took quite awhile to set up this whole system, they have gone pretty well. In fact, they have done about 18,000 of those adjudications. Now where some of the---- Senator Lincoln. How much of the approved ones have been paid? Mr. Rawls. Well, that is where I am getting to. That is where some of the frustration is. We have had about 11,000 cases approved. 7,000 of those have actually been paid. There is a group of claims that are in the process that are in the queue at the Department of Justice to be paid from the judgment fund. Senator Lincoln. A little over half. Because you are almost at 1,200 there in terms of the approved. These are just in Arkansas for me, my numbers. Mr. Rawls. OK. Obviously I do not have the Arkansas numbers in front of me, but class wide, 11,000 have been approved and 7,000 have been paid. Senator Lincoln. OK. I am sorry. The nationwide numbers are so close to Arkansas, I thought you were referring directly to Arkansas because ours are 1,100. Thank you. Mr. Rawls. Right. I can see why that is confusing. The payment system itself took a while to set up. The judgment fund apparently normally deals with very large, a small number of very large payments. This is a very large number of payments and frankly they were overwhelmed at the beginning of this, but that seems to be getting straightened out and those payments are being made now within 90 days. Senator Lincoln. Within 90 days? Mr. Rawls. Yes. Senator Lincoln. The backlog, do you anticipate within 90 days that backlog would be taken care of? Mr. Rawls. Well---- [Laughter.] Mr. Rawls. I cannot say that. What I am saying is that they are endeavoring to make 90 days from the date of the adjudication. Senator Lincoln. You feel confident that the system that is now in place is equipped to deal with both the backlog and those that are being adjudicated at this point? Mr. Rawls. I do. I believe the system is working. I am frustrated that---- Senator Lincoln. Can I write my constituents and say in 90 days they can see it? Mr. Rawls. From the date of their decision, yes. Senator Lincoln. Mr. Chairman, may I ask one last question? Ms. Gray, you made the point in terms of percentages. Do we know where the agency, the Department of Agriculture ranks in terms of percentage of minorities in that agency? Ms. Gray. We certainly have the statistics for each of the protected classes. We would have statistics for African Americans, for Hispanics, and I would say that for most categories, the department is pretty close to--for African Americans, it is pretty close to if not slightly above civilian labor work force--for African Americans--below on Hispanic, below on Native Americans, and below on Asian Americans, slightly above on women in terms of the civilian labor force numbers, which is the way we track that. Senator Lincoln. You did make the comment that in terms of the number of cases that you had that it was not outrageous in terms of the percentage of minorities---- Ms. Gray. Right. Senator Lincoln [continuing]. That you have in the agency. Ms. Gray. The employment complaints themselves---- Senator Lincoln. Right. Ms. Gray [continuing]. We are about fourth or fifth in terms of the percentages. We are about at one percent and there are about four or five agencies that are below us and the rest are certainly above that, but about one percent of the total employee population. Senator Lincoln. Of USDA? Ms. Gray. Of USDA. Senator Lincoln. OK. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I apologize for running over. The Chairman. Well, thank you very much, Senator Lincoln. Thank you for the historical note that you are the youngest woman elected to the Senate. That is an important point. I would like to recognize now the distinguished ranking member of our committee, Senator Harkin of Iowa. He has been deeply interested in this issue and in a bipartisan way we have held these hearings, and as I pointed out almost annually, trying to come to some benchmarks and some solutions. I would like to recognize the senator for his opening comment or questions he may have of the witnesses. STATEMENT OF HON. TOM HARKIN, A U.S. SENATOR FROM IOWA, RANKING MEMBER, COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE, NUTRITION, AND FORESTRY. Senator Harkin. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I apologize for being late and I hope none of you take that as any indication of a lack of interest in this issue by me. As our chairman said, he and I both have had a long-standing not only interest but working bipartisanly to try to get this department moved and changed around so that we can not only handle the cases but try to find out why we got so many of them. Mr. Chairman, I thank you for holding this important hearing. For far too long a positive record at USDA has been marred by a deep-rooted and far-reaching tolerance of racism, hostile work environments and discriminatory treatment of minority farmers. I do want to give credit to this administration and particularly to Secretary Glickman for the action he has taken. In December 1996, he appointed the Civil Rights Action Team. In March 1997, the Office of Civil Rights was created to address the employment and program complaints at USDA. He has taken some positive steps. The administration also, as we know, reached a settlement in the class action suit by African American farmers concerning discrimination in lending and benefit programs. There has been some increased lending to minority farmers and a higher percentage of minority employees at USDA, all good indications of moving in the right direction. That is the good news--despite those improvements, USDA's Inspector General and GAO have found continuing problems in the operation of USDA's Office of Civil Rights and even more troubling a failure to address the IG and GAO recommendations. The IG noted that no significant changes in processing complaints had been made since the last review. I do not know if you have covered that in my absence or not, but I would like to ask you about that. I believe this is unacceptable, totally unacceptable. It is essential that USDA improve the process of handling complaints as called for by both the USDA Inspector General and the GAO. Even beyond that, what I just said, USDA must get to the root of the problem. The message has to come through loud and clear at USDA discrimination is unacceptable in any form, place or time. Now what I keep hearing is that the number of complaints at USDA completely overwhelms the system for investigating them. The Secretary has called for more outside help to come in to handle the complaints. The question ought to be why are you getting so many complaints in the first place, not do we need to hire more people to process the complaints? What is the root of the problem, my friends? The answer is not just to hire more people to process more complaints. Why are you getting so many? That is the root of the problem and I do not see you getting to that. I do not see USDA getting to the root of that problem. The bad actors have to be held accountable at the root of this thing, not just at the end of it, but at the root of it. Again, I do not know. I look in vain. I do not know. Can you fire anybody? Does anybody ever get fired at the Department of Agriculture? [Laughter and applause.] Senator Harkin. You know? This goes on and on and on and on. You get more and more complaints and the system sort of bogs down. Then when the IG and the GAO make their recommendations, we come back a year or so later and we find out that no process changes have been made. That is what they say. Now maybe you have got a different story, but that is what they are telling me. Now, last--I do not want to lay all the blame on the Department of Agriculture--Congress must also do its part. Mr. Chairman, I believe we can start by fully funding the Outreach for Socially Disadvantaged Farmers Program, which provides grants to eligible community-based organizations to provide education and other agriculturally related services to socially disadvantaged farmers and ranchers. Congress authorized $10 million for this program in the 1990 farm bill, but has refused year after year to fund the administration's request for that amount. For 2001, both the House and Senate have approved only $3 million for this valuable program. It should be fully funded before this session of Congress ends and we should fund it through the Ag appropriations bill. It is not in your bailiwick, Mr. Chairman. It is in the appropriations bill, but it ought to be fully funded. It ought to be funded at the $10 million level. It is called the Outreach for Socially Disadvantaged Farmers Program. Congress has got to do its part on this also. Mr. Chairman, thank you again for having this very vitally important hearing. [The prepared statement of Senator Harkin can be found in the appendix on page 64.] Again, if I had one question I would ask of Mr. Fiddick, I would just ask the question that I just alluded to and that is the IG office and the GAO recommendations have noted that no significant changes in processing complaints have been made since the last review. Now have you already addressed before I got here? Mr. Fiddick. I hope we have. Senator Harkin. Well, try it again. [Laughter and applause.] Mr. Fiddick. I will be happy to. The IG's field work ended coincident with the end of fiscal year 1999. All of the figures that you saw in the report were more or less current as of September 30 of last year. Since that time, well, I arrived on the scene in November of last year, and since that time we have made some organizational changes in the office of Civil Rights. We do that, we understand, at our peril because there have been a number of organizational changes, persistent organizational changes in that office, that have not worked to the benefit of the office. We think that we have arrived at a solution in this case that will work because we have divided the policy functions from the operational functions, invested the operational functions in a career executive, which has been the exception and not the rule, and will be particularly important in the coming months as one administration goes out and another administration goes in. If I could give you one individual answer to that question that would give you some encouragement going forward, it is the effect of instituting and inserting a career officer at a high level in the process at this particular time. Senator Harkin. That person is there? Mr. Fiddick. David Winningham. Senator Harkin. That is you, Mr. Winningham, chief operating officer. How long have you been on board? Mr. Winningham. I have been over there since April. Senator Harkin. Where did you come from? Mr. Winningham. I came from FSA. [Laughter.] Senator Harkin. Well, I do not know what that outburst was about. Mr. Winningham. I am sorry. I apologize to you. Farm Service Agency. I was civil rights director in the Farm Service Agency since 1997. Senator Harkin. Since 1997? Mr. Winningham. Right. Senator Harkin. Are you saying to me that the fact that there has been no significant changes in processing complaints, that only goes back to last September? That is what you are telling me. We are looking at less than a year. Is that what you are saying to me? Ms. Gray. Let us take it back---- Senator Harkin. When was the last review? Mr. Fiddick. In March of this year. Ms. Gray. The last review in March was the employment review. The reviews actually started much earlier, that going back to 1996 when they identified the backlog of complaints, which had the 1,088 cases for program, and, in fact, all of those cases have been resolved except for three. In September 1998, Secretary Glickman convened an Early Resolution Task Force which was able to resolve all but 35 of those cases so that was an initiative that was conducted. It certainly was recommended by the IG and it certainly was part of one of the management decisions that the IG has accepted. There have been through the various phases of investigations for program complaints--keeping in mind that the first IG investigation on employment only happened last year-- certainly the resolution of more than 50 percent of the management decisions that they have made. You certainly will be getting copies of those for your record, I am sure. I do not think it is accurate. I have a letter from the IG's office as of August 31, which certainly records by number the recommendations and the management decisions that have been reached as a result of the investigations into the Civil Rights Office. To say that nothing has been done is not accurate. On the employment investigation that was just completed this spring, we have reached management decision on more than half of the 21 recommendations in that report and the recommendations that have not been accepted, it is because the things were put on hold as the department completed the management plan. The management plan will certainly change the responses that were submitted. To say that there has been no progress or to say that there has not been agreement with the Office of Inspector General on the recommendations that they made is not correct. We will certainly be happy to submit the letters from that office to you for your consideration. Senator Harkin. Thank you. I may have some followup later, Mr. Chairman, but I see my time has run out. The Chairman. Thank you very much, Senator Harkin. We appreciate very much your responses today. Obviously, you have heard the Inspector General and GAO to begin with. You have attempted to give at least as much optimism to the situation as you could, but clearly the underlying problems--Senator Harkin has mentioned them again--as we talked about them earlier, the high number of these cases, the reason for this number of disputes, is still not clear to any of us, perhaps not to you. Maybe it is something that you will never have an answer to. You do the best you can to institute procedures so that justice occurs in a fairly short period of time. We will continue to be in touch with you. We would like to have, Ms. Gray, the comments that you just made or at least the findings from the attempt to meet with the OIG recommendations or the reasons why these have not been instituted. Certainly his charges were very severe, namely the 119 recommendations and no progress. You are saying, in essence, management plans are about to be instituted incorporating some of these or you put some things on hold institutionally. This may be understandable, but, on the other hand, what appears to be the case is not much movement even given the critiques that seem to come annually and that is disturbing to most of us in this panel. Yes. Ms. Gray. It is disturbing, but we have resolved thousands of cases and the fact of the matter is that a thousand new ones have been filed. The Chairman. This begs the question of why? Ms. Gray. Why? Because there is some discrimination and certainly the perception of discrimination at USDA. That is the situation. To address that, the Secretary certainly made several new initiatives in June. One was the accountability policy, to hold employees and managers responsible for discrimination, not only where there was an official finding of discrimination but also where there was a settlement of a case, because there was the perception that some managers were settling cases to avoid being disciplined. We have set up procedures to track the settlements as well as the findings and the settlement agreements are automatically forwarded to the Office of Personnel for them to take appropriate disciplinary action. Senator Harkin. Mr. Chairman, if I might just ask--I do not know the answer to this question. How does this number of complaints at USDA, civil rights complaints, compare with complaints say at HUD or at VA or at HHS? I would to know how this--is there any kind of comparison on this? Mr. Fiddick. There is as a matter of fact, Senator, and I believe that we can find that information for you. The source is the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission Report in 1998, which tracks employment complaints which is in their jurisdiction. Senator Harkin. Employment complaints. Mr. Fiddick. In that year, Agriculture had a number of complaints equal to 1.0 percent of its total work force and I have how the other cabinet offices ranked. Those which have a rate that would be more than Agriculture are Labor, Education, HUD and Transportation. Those that have a rate less than Agriculture would be all the rest. The 1-percent incidence---- Senator Harkin. Excuse me. What did you say? Senator Lincoln. There is five that had more. Mr. Fiddick. There are four that had more. Senator Harkin. Four had more. Mr. Fiddick. Agriculture would rank five of the 14 other cabinet agencies. Senator Harkin. This is employment discrimination. Mr. Fiddick. That is correct. Senator Harkin. That is internally. We are talking about program. Mr. Fiddick. Right. Senator Harkin. These are not just employment cases you are getting. These are program complaints; right? Ms. Gray. That is correct. Mr. Fiddick. Yes. Senator Harkin. That is what I am interested in. Let us talk about the apples and apples. I am saying how does this compare? HUD has programs. HHS has programs that reach out to communities. What kind of complaints are they getting on civil rights complaints on their program applications and their program outreach programs compared to USDA, not employment, not employment? Mr. Fiddick. We do not have those figures. Senator Harkin. I do not either. Mr. Fiddick. We will try to find them for you. Senator Harkin. I do not either. That is why I asked you. Mr. Fiddick. It is much easier with EEOC because you have a central reporting agency. I would say, though, that there are many opportunities for USDA to discriminate because we have millions of transactions with customers. Our current loan portfolio is 214,000 farm loans. We originated 38,000 farm loans last year. We had 60,000 rural housing transactions. The denominator in the equation we are talking about is very large both for employment and for program activity. Senator Harkin. Well, I got to believe under HUD with all the Section 8 vouchers they have got and things out there, they are going to have about as many as you. I would just off the top of my head think it. Mr. Fiddick. We will look into it. The Chairman. Just adding to that, Senator Harkin, it was also mentioned that the Forest Service has a good number of complaints and this, of course, is totally outside the loan business, an interesting part, and shows the far-flung aspect of USDA's activities. Well, we thank you very much for coming. Senator Harkin. Thank you. The Chairman. We would like to recognize now a panel composed of Mr. John Boyd, President of the National Black Farmers Association; Mr. John Zippert, Director of Operations, Federation of Southern Cooperatives, and chairman of the board of the Rural Coalition; Mr. Lawrence Lucas, USDA Coalition of Minority Employees; Mr. Harold Connor, Upper Marlboro, Maryland; Ms. Juanita Carranza, Lambert, Montana; and Mr. Alexander Pires, Conlon, Frantz, Phelan & Pires, Washington, DC Gentlemen, we thank you for coming this morning. I will ask each one of you, as we have the other panelists, to try to summarize your comments in a 5-minute period, more or less, and then that will offer opportunities for senators to engage in questions and colloquy with you. I will ask you to testify in the order that I introduced you and that, first of all, would be Mr. Boyd. STATEMENT OF JOHN BOYD, PRESIDENT, NATIONAL BLACK FARMERS ASSOCIATION, BASKERVILLE, VIRGINIA Mr. Boyd. Good morning, Mr. Chairman. I would like to thank you for hosting this hearing, this long overdue hearing, I might add, and also I would like to thank Senator Harkin and my good friend, Senator Charles Robb from Virginia, who worked long and hard on this issue, who introduced the statute of limitations waiver for African American farmers. Again, my name is John Boyd, president and founder of the National Black Farmers Association, and it gives me good pleasure to be here this morning to talk to you for a few minutes about the problems that have existed for decades. It is our belief that our actions taken or not taken by the U.S. Government over the past century have systemically deteriorated rural America and African American farmers and other socially disadvantaged farmers across the country. At critical times when our farmers needed government the most, they failed to come through for them. For that reason, I wish to thank this committee for taking a look at this issue this morning and I hope that my statements here today will be beneficial to everyone here as it relates to the plight of the black farmers. The National Black Farmers Association has been working hard and long on the issue of black farmers from protesting, using our historic mule struggle, to gain the attention of the media over this issue, and again I would like to acknowledge the Clinton administration for at least taking a look at this issue and meeting with us on December 17, 1997, so we would like to thank the Clinton administration. To me, USDA is still known as the last plantation. I have personally named it an overflowing cesspool of filth that needs pumping and cleaning and disinfecting. In the early 1900's, there were more than one million black farmers in this country. Today that number has declined to less than 18,000 black farmers. The National Black Farmers Association believes that must of this decline is directly attributed to the actions and inactions of the United States Department of Agriculture officials. As I listened to the Inspector General this morning, it turned my stomach to hear our very own Inspector General admit to such egregious acts, numbers and boxes of unprocessed files that lingered in the Office of Civil Rights for decades. I remind you of the legal example such as loaded handguns in the United States Department of Agriculture office where African American farmers came in and was greeted by a loaded handgun, only to no prevail when no one was fired for this egregious act. These are some things that we hope that this committee will take a strong look at and deal with, Mr. Chairman. In an atmosphere in many parts of the country where USDA officials gave millions of dollars in gifts to their friends and farming families while thousands of African American farmers was left without help, seven years ago, I personally faced some discriminatory acts by the United States Department of Agriculture. As I sat in my farm house by candlelight during the dead of winter, it became very clear to me. My lights had been turned off. Federal officers were knocking at my door threatening to confiscate my equipment. Foreclosure signs were being posted on my property. Stress had destroyed my family. There was no money. All of this at no fault of my own. Through these type of actions and others has wiped out thousands of black farmers across this country, and we have to do something to deal with this kind of issues. I realize that I was not alone. Many other black farmers had lost their farms through egregious discrimination acts, mostly by the United States Department of Agriculture, and this has been the worst nightmare for a lot of people across this country. As these acts of discrimination continue with the United States Department of Agriculture, our government distances itself from cores and values on which this country had been founded. During the Reagan administration, America's top decisionmakers dismantled the Office of Civil Rights within the United States Department of Agriculture. This resulted in thousands of discrimination claims simply being thrown away or stored in boxes standing as high as ten cubic square feet per the Civil Rights Action Team report that was listed in 1997. Black and other economic disadvantaged farmers have been and continue to be denied access through financial and programmatic resources readily available to others throughout our society. Mr. Chairman, I report to you today that our American dream is still being denied. Too many African American and socially disadvantaged farmers have just not received justice and it is still just a dream for them. One of our first leaders to recognize this problem was Congresswoman Maxine Waters on the House side and she worked long and hard along with other Members of Congress to address this issue. With thousands and thousands of farmers yet to be compensated from this settlement, this appears to be an example of a hollow promise and again America failing black Americans like it did in the 1800's promising the 40 acres and a mule to those who had been wronged. Again we are here today to say that we have to make that promise fulfilled. The class action did not provide any injunctive relief--a court appointed monitor who simply does not have the power to overturn decisions for farmers who supposedly prevailed in the class action lawsuit, lawyers who refuse to continue to represent them because they have not been paid either through the consent decree. Mr. Chairman, we have some serious problems with the class action lawsuit. There is a number--I see my time has run out--but there is a number of recommendations that I would like to submit for the record and I hope that this committee will take a long, hard look at those issues. I would just like to close by talking about the county committee system. This county committee system, Mr. Chairman, makes up a racial makeup of 8,000 white males, 28 blacks and two females, which promotes racial disparity, sexism, and there has to be something--there is a law within the department that they can terminate people that are on a county committee. It is just simply not being done. Again I hope that this committee will take a long, hard look at a issue that has plagued this country for decades. Let this not be another listening session, but let this be a hearing that will be a long and fruitful harvest. Thank you very much. The Chairman. Thank you very much, Mr. Boyd. [The prepared statement of Mr. Boyd can be found in the appendix on page 138.] The Chairman. Mr. Zippert. STATEMENT OF JOHN ZIPPERT, DIRECTOR OF OPERATIONS, FEDERATION OF SOUTHERN COOPERATIVES, AND CHAIRMAN OF THE BOARD, THE RURAL COALITION, EPES, ALABAMA Mr. Zippert. Yes. My name is John Zippert and I am the Director of Program Operations for the Federation of Southern Cooperatives in Epes, Alabama, and I am also the chair of the board of the Rural Coalition, which is a national organization of community-based groups dealing with these issues, including the Inter-Tribal Agriculture Council, Hmong farmers in California, Latino farmers across the Southwest. I am here in both capacities and personally I have been working on this problem for 35 years, starting in 1965 as a worker/volunteer worker for the Congress of Racial Equality in St. Landry Parish, Louisiana, where I participated with the farmers there in an ASCS election and these were farmers who had not yet voted in a real election because of the passage of the 1965 Civil Rights Act. I have a long history of working on this problem and it is a serious problem; and it is a problem, as you have heard this morning, that USDA has not fully addressed and we submitted 40 pages of testimony. We have been working on this for years. We will submit more. I am going to talk about the Pigford part for the end, but let me say that we are very concerned that top managers and people within the agencies of USDA are not being held accountable for the behavior of their subordinates. There is a people problem there. As Senator Harkin asked, they have great difficulty in firing people who want to do the wrong thing; they appear to be more successful in getting rid of people and reorganizing people who want to do the right thing, and this is something that Congress ought to take another closer look at. I also support your statement and we have been strong supporters of the Section 2501 program of outreach for the socially disadvantaged farmers. Really if you look at the $10 million that should have gone into that problem, we have a deficit now since 1990 of 60 or $70 million that was never appropriated for a program that could do something about these problems and could reach out to people and give them information about all the programs of USDA, not just the loan program, the forestry programs, the crop insurance programs, the export programs and so on. Let me also say on a very particular thing that we have been working on for years which is CRAT Recommendation No. 28. This was to create a registry of minority farmers so we could tell where they were and make sure assistance was given to them so that the disastrous reduction and loss of black-owned land would not continue. Here was a simple recommendation. FSA/USDA agencies agreed this would be done. We went through all kind of hurdles with OMB. I have a letter from Mr. Fiddick six months ago saying this is his top priority and yet today there still is no registry and there seems to be a dispute between the agencies of USDA on what funds can be used to actually implement and do this program. Something is wrong. Even the best intentions go awry and we have heard of records and so on here. They just do not seem to really put their mind on things and get it together and carry it out. Now let me say about Pigford v. Glickman, and I had to tear myself away from my office. We have lines of farmers at all of the Federation's offices in the South today waiting to make sure that they can be included because there is a September 15 deadline for late filing. Because there was not adequate outreach and information at the beginning of this case, that not everybody who should have been in it knew about it and is in it. On page eight, nine and ten of the statement that we have given, we have some detailed concerns about this suit, and of the 20,488 Track A people--this is as of August 15--there may be a few more now--18,000 have been adjudicated. 10,931 have been approved, but only 6,600 of them have been paid, 60 percent. Here we are a year and a half since the settlement, two farming seasons and only a third of the people in the class have actually received a check and been paid. Now of some of the people who have been determined by third party people that they were discriminated against, the government intends to ask the monitor to reconsider some of those people and I really think Congress ought to ask the Department of Justice to drop those reconsiderations. That if a third party found discrimination, all the things you have heard here, the government ought not challenge those third-party decisions. In addition, we have 7,000 people out there who are seeking our help and the help of some of the other people you will hear from on this panel to make a reconsideration of their case, and some thought ought to be given that everybody who is in this class ought to get this settlement and we are going to work hard to see that those 7,000 people get their reconsideration. Now, there is a lot that can be said here. One other thing is that although you have heard that third parties have dealt with this, FSA has had a flying task force of people to get evidence and information to challenge people's complaints of discrimination. They have had time and people to do that, but they have not had the people to send people a check. I have one farmer--I am going to finish with this. I have one farmer who gave me a letter which he received after waiting for his check for 90 days in which he is written by the settlement people that it is going to take longer because they have had too many people to participate in the case. I just feel if we can have a flying task force of FSA to find reason not to pay people, we ought to have a flying task force or somebody to help pay the people who have been judged to have been discriminated against and the farmer told me that this was the strangest, and he said that this letter--he described this letter as chicken excrement. He said this was the most chicken excrement letter he had ever got from the government. [Laughter.] Senator Harkin. Do we have a copy of that? Did you put that in here? Mr. Zippert. I will put it in. I want to probably cross the person's name, but I will put it in. The Chairman. Thank you very much, Mr. Zippert. [The prepared statement of Mr. Zippert can be found in the appendix on page 141.] The Chairman. Mr. Lucas. STATEMENT OF LAWRENCE LUCAS, USDA COALITION OF MINORITY EMPLOYEES, WASHINGTON, DC Mr. Lucas. Thank you, Mr. Chair, and this honorable committee for taking the time out of your busy schedule to deal with the issue of not only the farmer but for the first time one of the things that has been missing in this whole dialog about the Department of Agriculture, which only a few of the media have addressed, and that is the problem of the racism and sexism and the hostile work environment that is not only perpetrated against farmers but against its own employees. I would like to enter into the record my prepared statement as well as some attachments in support of that. The Chairman. It will be published in full as will all of the statements of the witnesses. Mr. Lucas. Thank you. This organization, the Coalition of Minority Employees, started in 1994, but it does not represent just the concerns of African Americans. It just so happened that its president is black, but we represent the concerns of Asians, Hispanics, people of color, persons of disability, and all those people that fall under Title VI as well as Title VII. I would also like to say that the Honorable Chuck Robb and Albert Wynn have been in the forefront of not only dealing with the issues of the discrimination and the dysfunctional civil rights system in USDA, but he also deals with the systemic and the in-depth problem and used Mr. Harkin's aides to get to the breadth of the problem as it relates to employees. You are not going to be able, as I said at the fairness hearing on behalf of the black farmers, you are not going to settle the problem of the U.S. Department of Agriculture unless you do what you have said and many of your colleagues--I think Mr. Harkin said it--that the one problem that they have not done, they have not fired people and not held those managers accountable for all the pain and suffering that is inflicted not only on employees but on customers throughout this United States. In the Forest Service, in Montana, for example, we have examples, and the Forest Service will tell you that there was not a woman thrown down the steps. They will tell you that there was not a woman who lost her fetus because of hostile work environment. They will also tell you that there are no acts of nooses being held and portrayed on government buildings. They will say that the ``N'' word is not being used. They will say they treat all people of all religions, Jews, Asians, Arabs fairly. They do not deal with those issues fairly on a broad base at USDA. The problem, Mr. Chair, is the problem that the Department of Agriculture and their recommendations that I heard even from the Office of General Counsel laying the problem on only on civil rights employees is wrong. The initial complaint that comes from discrimination does not come from the employee in the Civil Rights office. It is because of that culture, all those isms, the bigotry that is perpetrated at the ground level. It is wrong for OIG and anyone else who comes to you to say that the problem in Agriculture is the problem of the employees in Civil Rights. That is just one of the problems and believe me it is dismal. However, what is very important that the problem starts at the ground level by employees who do not treat their employees with dignity and respect and they feel the same way about its customers. Now let me say one thing about the Office of General Counsel that made recommendations to you today. That same Office of General Counsel tells you that we have got a problem and we are straightening it out, but it was that same general counsel that told the American public, this president and this committee that there was no discrimination against black farmers. There is a contradiction here. Now they also tell you that the Office of Civil Rights under Mr. Winningham is going to be correct. Senator Harkin kind of touched it. How can the individual that has been overseeing civil rights and the demise of employees in FSA, the Farm Service Agency, and farmers now going to take on the responsibility of seeing that employees and farmers are treated fairly? That is a hypocrisy and they lay that at your feet and want you to believe it. The employees of the U.S. Department of Agriculture and the people I represent, the Hispanics, the Asians, now they will say why is it that we have a 10-percent increase in complaints if everything is being fixed? They will say, OK, we have resolved 13 complaints and fired people, but not one of those complaints of persons being fired have discriminated against a black farmer and we are paying over a billion dollars and no one being held accountable for farmer complaints and they tell you that the situation is fixed. They do not hold anybody accountable for discrimination against black farmers, but they also do not hold anybody accountable for discriminating against employees. Now they will tell you now that gives me a great deal of pain. They tell you that all the fixes are in place and I tell you that they are not. Until we get to the problem and make sure that people who are around the Secretary, who tells the Secretary that everything is all right, and has advised him poorly including the Office of General Counsel, we need to do something about firing people. You have people at the U.S. Department of Agriculture running the Office of Administration and Civil Rights, but you also have the real problem at the ground. Until you begin to make sure those individuals who are the ones who are discriminating found guilty of discrimination are punished is the problem. I will close by saying this. There is a structural problem at USDA. They will tell you that everything is fine. You cannot have the Assistant Secretary for Administration overseeing civil rights and overseeing the Office of Human Resources. That has been proven a no-no by the Civil Rights Commission. They have been advised by the EEOC, but yet and still they will come to you and say we have got the fix. I say to you that the structure of civil rights, you need an assistant secretary responsible for civil rights who answers directly to the Secretary or the Deputy Secretary. Those people in civil rights cannot answer to the same person who handles the office of human resources that is supposed to hold people accountable because it does not work in government. I am saying that there is a structure in USDA which they tell you, Mr. Chair, that is fine. I am saying the structure is fixed and I say what they are saying to you is that the problem is in the Civil Rights Office. I say the problem is all the sexism and racism, bigotry and hostility that the employees at the Department of Agriculture that administrator after administrator, president after president, secretary after secretary has allowed to go on, and I would hope that this committee would not be fooled by the program that they offer for you. You have got to hold people accountable at every level and fire those people for discriminating against the American citizens as well as very competent and hardworking employees at the U.S. Department of Agriculture. Thank you. The Chairman. Thank you very much, Mr. Lucas. [Applause.] [The prepared statement of Mr. Lucas can be found in the appendix on page 188.] The Chairman. Ms. Carranza, we welcome you. As Senator Baucus mentioned earlier today, you have spent two days on a train to get here. Ms. Carranza. Yes, I did. The Chairman. We appreciate that perseverance and we look forward to your testimony. STATEMENT OF JUANITA CARRANZA, LAMBERT, MONTANA Ms. Carranza. Thank you, Senator. As you said, I did spend two days on the train and so you might as well shut your little light off because I am going to read my written testimony. [Laughter.] Ms. Carranza. My 89-year old mother made that trip with me and it was 48 hours. Thanks to Amtrak. First of all, I would like to thank you for the opportunity to appear before you and address the civil rights resolution process at the United States Department of Agriculture. I will have no statistics to testify about because numerical figures do not tell what the reality is about. The fact is that in the delivery of its federally mandated farm programs, the United States Department of Agriculture has like the Bridgestone/Firestone Corporation a broken, defective and deadly product that must be recalled. If a recall is not in order at USDA, what other reason can one give why certain farmers and ranchers are selectively chosen to be denied services at the FmHA/FSA county office level when Federal law states that no one, and I quote, ``shall be treated differently''? If a recall is not in order at USDA, why is the pattern of discrimination that begins at the county office level continued and enforced by entrenched FmHA/FSA state office officials regardless of what Congress mandates? If a recall is not in order at USDA, why is the mandatory in-house appeals system, one that ultimately reiterates the original death sentence, begun at the county office for the targeted family farmers and ranchers foolish enough to believe that there can be justice in that mortally flawed charade? If a recall is not in order at USDA, why do regional USDA Offices of General Counsel combine forces with the Department of Justice not just to remove farmers and ranchers from their land but go for the jugular effect? Then the selected farmers and ranch families are left penniless, humiliated and beaten with not one shred of human dignity left and in some cases self-inflicted death is an easier solution than the tortuous process delivered from those two government entities. If a recall is not in order at USDA, why has the civil rights resolution process been such a dismal bumbling farce? On November 13, 1998, Secretary of Agriculture Glickman spoke of resolving the discrimination fiasco as USDA. He quoted Dr. Martin Luther King, and I quote: ``An unaddressed injustice at any time is an injustice for all time.'' The Secretary should be reminded of what Dr. King instinctively knew, that it is the speaker's actions that validate the spoken word, not just the pacifying rhetoric. Let the Secretary and his civil rights team tell Joann Martens of Wolf Point, Montana, who filed a civil rights complaint in 1993 because she was denied the same servicing actions that were only given to her ex-husband and was then told by the county office supervisor, that women do not belong in farming and is still waiting for her case to be resolved, that USDA really does believe in justice. Let the Secretary and his civil rights team tell Sharon Mavity of Sidney, Montana, who filed a civil rights complaint in 1997 when she tried and failed to save her fourth generation family ranch for her and her sons because she was denied the loan servicing that was instead given to a selected young white male and is still waiting for her case to be resolved, that USDA really does believe in justice. Let the Secretary and his civil rights team tell Rosemary Love of Harlem, Montana, who filed a civil rights complaint in 1997 and whose 36 year marriage ended 3 months ago because of the strain of fighting FmHA/FSA for 17 years and is still waiting for her case to be resolved, that USDA really does believe in justice. Let the Secretary and his civil rights team tell Jacky Shiplet of Livingston, Montana, who filed a civil rights complaint in 1996 after she was denied loan servicing by FmHA/ FSA, but young white males did receive loan servicing, and who has had to choose between food or medicine for her disabled husband, that USDA really does believe in justice. Let the Secretary and his civil rights team tell Dolly Stone of Browning, Montana, who last week had to stare down a sheriff's foreclosure sale on her ranch despite USDA's own moratorium on foreclosures for class members of the Keepseagle v. Glickman class action, that USDA really does believe in justice. Let the Secretary and his civil rights team tell Margaret Carranza, my 89-year old mother, who experienced the deliberate pattern of insufficient and repeated late funding from FmHA/FSA that is meant to drive certain farmers and ranchers into insolvency and bankruptcy, that the USDA really does believe in justice. The USDA in-house appeals process deliberately failed her by failing to make FmHA/FSA adhere to the regulations and rules that are supposed to regulate farm programs. The USDA civil rights process failed her at the time of the discrimination complaint partly because it had been dismantled by the Reagan/Bush administrations. I have to tell you that I am missing part of my testimony. Do you have it? Thank you. I apologize. I will begin again the last paragraph. Let the Secretary and his civil rights team tell Margaret Carranza, my 89-year old mother, who experienced the deliberate pattern of insufficient and repeated late funding from FmHA/FSA meant to drive certain farmers and ranchers into insolvency and bankruptcy, that USDA really does believe in justice. The USDA in-house appeals process deliberately failed her by failing to make FmHA/FSA adhere to the regulations and rules that are supposed to regulate farm programs. The USDA civil rights process failed her at the time of the discrimination complaint because it had been dismantled by the Reagan/Bush administrations in 1993. The Chapter 12 bankruptcy process failed her because the tentacles of FSA reached into that system as well. The state FSA office furious that a discrimination complaint had been filed refused to let the family operation into the Chapter 12 protection unless they signed a drop dead agreement that signed away the discrimination complaint and all of their rights under due process guaranteed to them by law. Our congressional delegation failed her because when letters were written asking for their intervention, FmHA/FSA state and national officials responded denouncing her operation as the guilty party. Even elected representatives, like the general public, can also be guilty of believing that only government knows best and that the government is always right until it is too late, too late to stop an overzealous Assistant U.S. Attorney from declaring that she is aware of Secretary Glickman's moratorium against foreclosures on open USDA civil rights complaints, but she is going to bring the full force of the Federal Government down upon the Carranza women and make an example of them, and she did. The personal property was seized by the U.S. marshals and sold at public auction even though Dr. Jeremy Wu of USDA's Office of Civil Rights kept assuring the Carranza's that the sale would be stopped. When it was not, he would not return repeated phone calls. Personal family effects, baptismal records, family ranch records, family heirlooms are still on their former property because the same Assistant U.S. Attorney said, and I quote, she would ``have the FBI on their heads so fast it will make their heads spin'' if they attempted to retrieve their possessions from their former property now owned by FSA's predetermined buyer. The USDA Office of Civil Rights has failed Margaret Carranza miserably as well because they not only failed to protect her rights in the foreclosure process, but they have failed to honor her rights as a human being, the same rights that our country was founded upon, and I quote, ``that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights, and that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.'' I ask you today is seven years long enough for Margaret Carranza to wait for the justice that the Secretary pontificated about in 1998? What about the other women from Montana that I mentioned earlier? What about all the other farmers and ranchers, men and women, that this out of control FSA system has been allowed to selectively remove from farming and ranching? Senators, this is not an exaggerated unsubstantiated testimony that a Federal system you are responsible for is defective and that it must be fixed. What you have heard is the reality of our lived experience and no buck passing, denials, or stonewalling is going to make it go away because we the people upon whom the injustice was committed are not going to go away until the system is fixed. Change not just for us but for all of those who will be a target the next time someone walks into a USDA office and wants their land, too. Thank you. The Chairman. Thank you very much, Ms. Carranza. [The prepared statement of Ms. Carranza can be found in the appendix on page 212.] The Chairman. Mr. Connor. STATEMENT OF HAROLD CONNOR, UPPER MARLBORO, MARYLAND ACCOMPANIED BY JOSEPH D. GEBHARDT, ESQ. Mr. Connor. Good morning. My name is Harold Connor and I would like to thank the committee for giving me an opportunity to appear this morning. I have a longer statement, a longer written statement, and I would like to request that it be included in the record. The Chairman. It will be published in full. Mr. Connor. Thank you very much, and I will try to make my comments brief. As I said, my name is Harold Connor. I am an employee of the Farm Service Agency. I am currently the Deputy Director of the FSA Price Support Division here in Washington, DC, and we handle a number of programs including the Market Assistance Loan Program, the Loan Deficiency Payment Program, Small Hog Operation Payment Operation Program, and our programs provided more than $15 worth of financial assistance to the nation's farmers on 1999 crops. I began my career with FSA in 1971 while still in college and graduated from the University of Missouri and was hired as the first black county executive director for FSA in the state of Missouri, came to Washington in 1983, and within a few years after I got to Washington, I encountered my first significant racial discrimination within FSA. I filed a complaint but then after talking with some of my colleagues, both black and white colleagues, they mentioned that most people who filed complaints are marked, and in the future they have a very difficult time either obtaining promotions or they also would face some retaliation. I dropped that complaint. Things did not get any better on the job and within a couple of years I filed another complaint, carried that through to a settlement, and once I did finally come to settlement, but before I did reach a settlement, I had had severe and permanent damage to my health and my marriage. In 1976, I applied for a position as Director of the Audits and Investigations Group with the Farm Service Agency, and I thought I was well qualified for the position, had 12 years of experience, some seven and a half years as a county executive director, and I had also handled audits as a program specialist in Washington, DC The white selecting official selected a lesser qualified white for the position so I filed an EEO complaint under the Herron v. Glickman class action complaint that was brought against FSA by middle managers, grades 12, 13 and 14, African American managers in Washington. On December 14, 1999, I received a finding of discrimination from an EEOC judge and within a couple days after that, a representative of USDA falsely told The Washington Post that even though I received a favorable determination that I had already been promoted, which really kind of irritated me pretty much because we had not even come to any kind of decision. The EEOC judge recommended that because I had been discriminated against, that I be promoted to a grade 15 position that was either in my current position or a position that was similar to the position that I had applied for. The position that I had applied for and been unfairly denied has since been abolished so that was not available. They also determined that I should receive back pay, back to June 9th of 1996, and $10,000 in compensatory damages. The Office of Civil Rights turned the enforcement of these provisions back over to the Farm Service Agency, and they even gave Farm Service Agency the option of offering me whatever position they wanted to offer. What FSA offered me was a position that was especially created as assistant to a Schedule C political appointee and with no supervisory responsibility and no management responsibility and no major program responsibility. This did not fall in line with what the EEOC judge had decided that I should have because it was not substantially equivalent to the position I had applied for or the position that I was in. I turned that offer down and filed a noncompliance complaint with the USDA Office of Civil Rights. They did not bother to respond to my complaints, so I filed a complaint through my attorneys with the Office of Federal Operations with EEOC. I am confident that I am going to win my appeal there, but the problem with that is that it normally takes about two years for that complaint process to carry out so in the next two years I am going to have additional damage to my health waiting for a determination to be made. I do not believe that the Office of Civil Rights should ever have turned the enforcement of its rules over to FSA because they were the agency that had discriminated against me. The Office of Civil Rights takes a stance that seems to be trying to favor the agency that is involved in the discriminatory activity. They either take action or inaction depending on what is going to support management's position. For instance, a friend of mine, who is also in the Herron v. Glickman complaint, had a complaint of reprisal that was never investigated and there was no record, and yet the Office of Civil Rights decided to dismiss that case because it would be advantageous to management. By the Office of Civil Rights pro-management stance, it encourages those within the agency who are interested in retaliation. I have a particular case that or particular situation that I wanted to mention. We, within the Price Support Division, were trying to get some automated functions out to allow producers to request loan deficiency payments from home without making a trip to the office, and it would be totally automated to where they did not just have to key it in and print off an application and then send it in. Rather, it would be automated to the point where they could key it in, it can be processed, and we can issue the payment to them through electronic funds transfer. However, the division that we had to go through to get these processes put in place has just completely stymied us from day one. As a matter of fact, at one time the director of that division, acting director, informed his key people not to talk to myself, my immediate supervisor, who is also an African American, or the chief of our Automation Branch, Mr. George Stickels, who served up here as a congressional fellow for a period of time. This same person whom we have to go through to get automated functions put out raised a question at a manager's meeting as to what can be done about people who file multiple EEO complaints, and there are some more things that are in the record that we submitted. The main issue that I had today is that even though a representative of the Department said that I had already been promoted, I have not been promoted. This is some nine months after the determination was made. I have not been promoted. I also have not even received any back pay. As a matter of fact, the agency has not even begun to process my back pay. When I submitted an e-mail to the Human Resources Division asking about the status of my back pay, I was referred to an OGC attorney and that attorney said that they would not answer any of my questions. If I had any questions about this particular case, I would have to contact them through my attorney. With this hearing today, I would just like leave some recommendations of what the Department could do to help the Office of Civil Rights to kind of take a more active role and a more positive role in solving some of these employee complaints. The Office of Civil Rights should be more involved in the negotiation process when we are trying to negotiate settlements. They should have full power and authority to see that any orders that it sends down to agencies are fully carried out and properly carried out, and the Office of Civil Rights should also take a more active role in keeping the statistics on race and promotion in a format that could be useable in EEOC cases. As a matter of fact, the EEOC judge who heard our particular case said that the documentated statistics on race and promotion that were submitted by FSA were very unreliable and left much to be desired. Again, I would like to thank the committee for allowing me to have a few minutes and if possible I would like to have my attorney maybe say a couple of things. [The prepared statement of Mr. Connor can be found in the appendix on page 216.] The Chairman. Well, Mr. Connor, let me just ask--I will grant your wish, but it will need to be a brief comment because we need to proceed on to the next witness and to questions as I announced earlier. Mr. Connor. Yes, sir. The Chairman. We have permitted you and other witnesses to speak much more than the 5-minutes because you have a very important case to make, but please I will allow your attorney to make a comment, but be very brief if you can. Mr. Gebhardt. Thank you, Senator, and Senator Harkin. My name is Joseph D. Gebhardt, and I have been Mr. Connor's attorney for several years now, and I was the lead attorney and still am in the Herron v. Glickman class action on behalf of the middle management black employees at FSA. One thing that we have found in the case that really you should know about is that the Office of Civil Rights is sending its staff people to depositions in EEOC cases to defend management. They are acting as pseudo lawyers. Some of them are lawyers, and OCR is actually sending staff people to represent and defend managers at their depositions in these EEOC cases. When you wonder what those 120 employees are really doing, that is something that is going on. Now, Charles Rawls also told you that the OGC attorneys who are in the Civil Rights Division, he said it is a small and experienced group of people, that they work on a variety of civil rights issues and they give civil rights advice. What they really do is they defend management in the EEOC hearings. That is what the OGC civil rights lawyers do probably 90 percent or 100 percent of their time. Every time we have a case at the EEOC, they are there representing management. In fact, the OGC lawyer told the EEOC judge that Harold Connor was not discriminated against. Well, the judge saw through the smoke and all that and ruled that there was discrimination, but that is what OGC's Civil Rights Division lawyers are doing. Mr. Rawls told you that they are experienced--they are a small group and they are not experienced. One of the lawyers we worked against in the Herron case had graduated from law school one year before. You have heard about this mismatch of skills in the Office of Civil Rights today. I will give you a good example. The former Environmental Justice Coordinator for USDA Central Office, Dr. Velma Charles-Shannon, they competed their position. They just put it up for bid because they transferred it out of departmental administration and the civil rights arena over to the Forest Service area. She had to compete for her job. Fair enough. She had a doctorate in toxicology and had some civil rights familiarity. She is a black woman, very high stature, had held a lot of responsible jobs in government before. They gave her job to a white woman who did not have any qualifications like that and who had applied for the job and had been interviewed over the phone; they just gave her job to a white person. Well, what did they do with Dr. Velma Charles- Shannon? They made her an employment complaints specialist in Civil Rights. It is not that they are putting garbage employees in there. They are creating the skills mismatch in order to promote discrimination. Mr. Connor just told you about the back pay issue, that they have had nine months to get ready to pay his back pay. We gave them the calculations--what--about six months ago for him and Dr. Cliff Herron, who is in the audience, another discriminated against FSA employee, as found by EEOC and USDA. They have not paid Cliff Herron's back pay either. We have asked them to send us the calculations when they get the calculations done. They are not doing it. There is no interest in civil rights enforcement at USDA. Secretary Glickman's spokesman, Andy Solomon, lied in The Washington Post and said Harold Connor and Cliff Herron had already been promoted. We have let Secretary Glickman know that. We let the USDA/OGC lawyers know it. They have not taken any corrective steps. This goes to the top and that is all I have to say. The Chairman. Thank you very much. Mr. Pires. STATEMENT OF ALEXANDER PIRES, CONLON, FRANTZ, PHELAN & PIRES, WASHINGTON, DC Mr. Pires. Thank you very much. My name is Alex Pires. I represent farmers for a living and I wanted to talk about three things: the black farmers, the Native American farmers, and the Hispanic, women and Asian farmers. I started the black farmers case. I wrote the complaint. I started with the three original black farmers, Tim Pigford, Lloyd Shaffer and George Hall. The black farmers case was just a modest attempt to make changes at USDA. It was not intended to do anything more than that. My hope when we started was to get two or 3,000 black farmers hearings. You have heard today everybody testify about it. In the end there will be maybe 25,000. I need to tell you how crazy it is out there. Last week the Poorman Douglas Company, which handles the phone calls, got 127,000 phone calls. Yesterday, they got over 20,000 phone calls from black farmers complaining. My office everyday my phone system completely overloads--everyday. I have 13 lawyers. We are getting four to 500 pieces of mail and faxes a day on the black farmers case. The case is actually getting bigger. I did not come here to talk about that. I came here to talk about the problem. USDA, you are complaining to the wrong people. It is not the people in Washington that are the cause of the problem, in my opinion. It is at the local and state level. It is a very racist organization. It is white men running everything. All the local county committees are white males. How do they stay in power? You can only vote if you are a farmer in the program. You only get in the program if you get a loan. You only get a loan if you get approved. You only get approved if the people in power decide to give you a loan. It is self-perpetuating. In the history of this country, there has never been a black dominated county committee even in black counties. There has never been a Hispanic dominated committee even in Hispanic counties. Women are even more powerless. White males run the show. In the South, the local county offices fill out the forms for white people. Minorities do not get services. It is very simple. I have been doing this for 20 years. I have represented more farmers than anybody in the country. I see it everyday. I have been to more county hearings than anyone. That is what I do. The racism exists at the local level. Native Americans it is even worse. They get no services. It is a national disgrace. I am in the middle of that case I filed also called Keepseagle. The government is fighting the case. It is worse than the black farmers case. The Native Americans have been treated worse, if that is possible. They never get servicing. They never get attention. They never get loans. They will not settle with us. I understand that. They will not talk to you. Senator Conrad asked questions about it, as did others. I understand that. I am a big boy. It is litigation. In the end, we will prevail, but it will be bigger. We will be back in front of you and you will find out the Native American case will probably have 40 to 50,000 claims. The third problem is Hispanics, women and Asians. They are totally powerless. They are out of the program. When a woman walks in to a local county office, she has very little chance of getting good servicing. It is not these people in Washington. It is people at the local level. You do need to think about changing the system. The election process does not work well. White men will always be in power. You need to have a different system to get minorities in power at the local level. The state system, it does not work either. On the positive side, we have learned two things in the Pigford case. You can have private enterprise process cases. You can take the best part of the government, which is its money, and match it with the best part of the private sector, which is its processing, and we have done almost 20,000 cases in a year and a half. We can do a lot better job. What we have learned is that black farmers had a lot to say about the system and it has been good for everybody. It is very easy to complain about a lot of things. Have there been delays in getting checks? Yes. The judgment fund where the money comes from is overworked. The people in Washington have been intellectually honest about the settlement of the case. They have worked hard. We meet constantly about it. I do not think it is a case of bad faith there. Could we do better? Sure. We now have 46 retired judges writing decisions, 11 arbitrators issuing arbitration decisions. The monitor's office has ten people. Like I said, I have 13, 14 full-time people working on it. I have another hundred lawyers that I brought in. The vast majority, by the way, are black. I could do a better job in the American Indian case if I could get it resolved. I need help from Congress. They need to help us get the government to the table and get started on all these cases. Native Americans have 25 years of stories to tell. We might as well get started and start telling them. There is no sense in acting like it is not there. It is almost impossible as a Native American to get a loan. I do not care whether you are in North Dakota, South Dakota, Montana. I spend all my time on the road. It is very, very hard because if Mr. Harkin comes into my office and sits down, I have two choices. I can sit down and help him fill out the forms and work with you, ask you questions, help you help me help you by asking you to fill out the form with me together. You and I work together. I can qualify you. If I do not want to qualify you because you are a Native American or I do not particularly care for you because you are a woman, you are never ever going to get approved. That is how the system works at the local level. If I do not want Mr. Harkin to get a loan, you, sir, will never get a loan. If I want you to get a loan, I do not care how many problems you have had, I can qualify you. That is basically how it works. Finally, these people here, all of them who I know, have worked very hard. These are very controversial cases. I am in the middle now with a whole mess of people trying to work on the reparations matter and I find that it is not my fault, for example, that I am a white person. I would prefer actually for what I do for a living if I was a black person, but I am not. I cannot say anything more about that other than it makes it more difficult. The black farmer is a wonderful and loving person. They have persevered through what no human being would normally do, much like a war. Because of John and others, they are making progress. It is difficult. There are fights constantly everyday, everyday. The Native American case, though, is actually worse, and I would ask you in your hearts to think about that. It is a national disgrace, not the problem these people behind me, at the local levels, and we need to do something about it. It is just money. It is just money that is needed to process these. Yes, there will be a billion dollars in the black farmers case. My gosh, that is nothing. We have given out over $100 billion in subsidies in the farm program in the last 15 years. What is a billion dollars? It is not that much money. Finally, when you help us solve the Native American case, think about the women and the Asians and the Hispanics. We have until October 20 something to file the last case. We are working on the last case to file which involves them. It is very complicated. I know people do not like lawyers. I do not much like them myself. We have no other choice right now. I do not see the legislative solution for what we are doing and I do not see anyone else coming forward so we have these cases. I do thank you very much, though, for taking the time, and I will answer whatever questions about any of the three cases. Thank you. The Chairman. Thank you very much, Mr. Pires. [The prepared statment of Mr. Pires can be found in the appendix on page 229.] The Chairman. Let me begin by asking you a question. If I heard you right, one solution, and this oversimplifies it, but sort of work with me, you would literally contract out the process that is now occurring in the civil rights function in USDA perhaps to private lawyers? Is that a possibility? Mr. Pires. No. You have the right thought. In the black farmers case, the way we got 20,000 cases processed was to give it to private enterprise, retired judges and give them very short deadlines. In the Native American case, you are going to need that. You are never going to be able to go back to the government system and get it done. It is also wrong. You are not going to be able to get people to rule upon someone that they discriminated against. It is naturally inconsistent. You are going to have to do that with Hispanics, women and Asians also. In the bigger picture, the best thing that you could do to help farmers, to help American farmers, is to change the election system at the local level, to take the white male and take his power from him. I can give you two thoughts for what it is worth and you are far smarter than I. One is let people put their name in to be nominated in any county. 15 people come forward and then select, give the power to who you want to select so they can pick women, they can pick Asians, they can pick Hispanics. If it is a black county, in Green County, Alabama, and it is 71 percent black, why do we have five white people? Makes no sense to me. My gosh, what are we doing? Why could you not set up a new system, a new system for elections to take the power away from the white males. That would overnight make everybody's job up here better. We are yelling at the wrong people. By the time the problems get here, they are completely out of control, Senator. The Chairman. Well, just following through that idea, clearly in the 71 percent black county you mentioned, if everyone was eligible to vote and did vote---- Mr. Pires. They are not, sir, because they do not have loans. That is the key. There are 71 percent of the people who are black, but the farmers who are in the program, the black farmers are probably only 30 percent, the white folks get all the loans. White folks have 70 percent of the votes. They vote the white people in and they just perpetuate the system. The election system does not work. It is self-perpetuating. You know how they give out loans in the South? White people get it first who are members of the committee. Their sons get it next. The seed guy, the implement dealer, the John Deere dealer, the white structure, all owned by white people first. After the money has been pretty much taken care of, they look to blacks next and they look to women last. Hispanics, if there are some. Now in the big four out West, in Texas, Colorado, California where Hispanics have more of a stick, they do a little bit better. Essentially white people take care of white males first. The election system does not remedy it. The Chairman. All right. Let us say we change the franchise so that everybody voted, not just those who have loans, for example, now then what happens? Mr. Pires. It would be great. It would be great. It would be wonderful. The Chairman. This is, without trying to force at least a conclusion, this is a legislative recommendation that you would make? Mr. Pires. Well, me--these people know more about it--that is what I would do. I would love to get the white male and put him in his place. I am getting to hate white men. The Chairman. Mr. Boyd. Mr. Boyd. Mr. Chairman, to reiterate on some of the things that Mr. Pires is talking about, half the problem is there are African Americans on these committees, but they cannot vote. In other words, they are sitting in the county. They are minority advisors to the committee that have no voting privileges and I cannot believe that we are sitting here in the year 2000 that we have committees, Federal committees that exist that deprive certain groups of people the ability to vote. That is one aspect of it. The county committee system was designed to steal land. It was a legal way to steal land from poor African American farmers and other socially disadvantaged farmers where the county committee people, and these are--Mr. Pires, you are right--the most powerful people, powerful white farmers in the communities that get together and say, OK, I am going to get Mr. Boyd's farm at a third of what it costs, and what they done was I had a county committee person come by my house. It was not advertised in the newspaper. He said, Mr. Boyd, I know you are in trouble, I am going to give you a chance to get out, come live on my farm if you sign these documents. He had my paperwork coming to my farm talking about selling my farm out. I had a few choice words for him, but I am running for office and I cannot say them today. The Chairman. I understand. Mr. Zippert. Mr. Zippert. There are a number of things, some of which Mr. Pires has pointed out, but actually technically everyone in the county who has a farm interest can vote in this election. However, the procedure under which you register to vote is not clear and the procedures under which people get ballots and the procedures on which ballots are counted, all of this has been, is really a scandal that needs to be looked at, and that is the problem. For instance, in some counties, the husband and wife each get a ballot if they are white, but black people, only the husband gets a ballot. This is based upon this whole cultural process that has been described here or racist process, depending on what you want to call it, and this is what goes on and then we have a chart, a detailed chart, in the report we submitted to you following page 32 which goes into some of the statistics that the Rural Coalition was able to get from FSA about these elections. We have a FOIA that they have yet to respond to. You might want to ask them about responding to that. The Chairman. What is your request? Mr. Zippert. Well, we requested information about the results of these elections and participation in these elections, number of ballots that were invalidated and reasons for it, and we have not gotten a response, and it sort of comes--Mr. Pires has described in simpler terms, but there are complexities in this and specifics in this and if you know the system, there are ways in which you can manipulate it to have the result that Mr. Pires describes and we have tried--the Rural Coalition suggested a voter registration form. It was initially adopted and then it was dropped. We have been talking to them for years about some kind of a proportional representation system. If we cannot get people elected, then the people who are appointed ought to have the right to vote. We have the situation where when the community nominates a black candidate that they want, the committee puts three other blacks on the ballot to dilute the black vote. There are all kinds of ways they have manipulated this system and it really deserves a hearing of its own with the people in USDA who are in charge of this because they have allowed this to go on. The Chairman. Let me ask for just a pause. Unfortunately a roll call vote has been called. I did not realize that was occurring and we are in the final minutes of it. I will return if you can stay and I would like to continue the hearing at that point. If you want to continue, Senator Harkin, please proceed. Senator Harkin. I just want to say I have got another thing I have got to go to right after this vote and I do not know how much longer we are going to be on this vote, but I just want to thank you all for being here and I will try to return, but I really do think we are going to have to look at the selection process that you are talking about and try to restructure this. It almost seems like we need almost like a voting rights act for agriculture, a modern-day voting rights act that will be not just sit back but actually will be proactive, actually go out and do some things like that. I hope I can get back, but if not I want to thank you all very much and you have made great suggestions. We will followup on that. [Recess.] The Chairman. The hearing is resumed. Did you have further comments, Mr. Lucas, with regard to we were discussing the voting situation with regard to county committees, and I do not know whether Senator Harkin pursued that further or whether you have a comment on that? Mr. Lucas. I agree with my colleagues on the panel, especially with John Boyd saying that we have gone through a civil rights struggle and you still have people, African Americans, who supposedly are on a committee, that cannot vote. That is appalling as we move into the 21st century. That the comments and the breadth of my colleague to my left talking about the whole voting process. I would have to add that the problem does not just rest with the county committees. We have people in Washington and political people in Washington, some of them, some of your former colleagues who are now working at the Department of Agriculture, who are beginning to act like the culture, the plantation mentality that has existed in the department so long has now come to the Department of Agriculture and they are beginning to act just like those people who are doing all this harm. I think that if the programs were still administered properly, once the complaints rise up and those that do get through the system, They are people in Washington in some of these offices, and by the way some of those people look like me. It is not just a situation where we are putting it on all white males. We have Hispanics and blacks in very high positions in the USDA and they are in some of these offices around the country who are also taking part in that discrimination. I do not want to make it seem like you let the political appointees around the Secretary and some of the assistant secretaries in the administration, administrators and managers off the hook. I think the problem is you cannot put a band-aid on a cancer and that is what you are doing if you only deal with one piece of it. You have got to hold these people accountable and fire these people for discriminating and ruin the lives of so many American citizens, both in the Department of Agriculture and outside. The Chairman. All right. Now, we have discussed at least the three parts of the program, and there may be more in the class action suits--Mr. Pires had discussed and offered some counsel on that--the problems of discrimination in the field with regard to program discrimination, and you are now raising an important point that you raised in your testimony originally that the problem may lie with the management of the department. You know let us just take a look at that for a moment. Sort of start with the Secretary, the assistant secretaries, other people. Many of these persons are appointed by the president of the United States depending upon which administration comes and is confirmed by this committee. Is the problem at that level or is the problem at levels below the political appointees, that is persons who have some status through the civil service who proceed on really through several administrations, or how can you give us advice as to where we look? Mr. Lucas. To be very short, I notice that Mr. Boyd will probably have some comments on that, too. What you have is the Office of General Counsel who told the American public that there was no discrimination of black farmers are also saying in the case of the employees, and you got over 15, almost 18 class actions of employees. They, too, are saying the same thing they said about the black farmer case. This committee should order the Office of General Counsel, i.e., Charlie Rawls, to cease quoting from Rule 23 and being a barrier to settlement of these complaints. I think we could have settled the black farmer complaint at a much lower level than $1 billion if the U.S. Department of Agriculture Office of General Counsel would have listened to the attorneys and to the farmers. These cases were brought to them early on, but they would not listen--Mr. Pires, John Boyd, Pigford--and what you have is a culture within the Department of Agriculture and some of these people are political appointees, i.e., the Office of General Counsel, or i.e., the Director of Civil Rights, and now you have Mr. Winningham overseeing some of the same cases that he was reviewing when he was at Farm Service Agency. That is also a conflict of interest but they will tell you that he is the best person qualified. I would say to you that you have got to get to the problem holistically and you have got to order the Office of General Counsel to stop interfering with the policy of this Secretary who says he wants the complaint settled, but once it leaves his lips, it goes into a deep hole and the Office of General Counsel and the Office of Civil Rights and certain people who work there are seeing to it that these class actions of women, Hispanics and Asians are not resolved. You should demand and the American taxpayer demand that they come to the table and settle these complaints and not have a similar situation that we had with the case of the black farmers. It is arrogance. It is indifference and Mr. Chair, you have the power to change it. The Chairman. Well, perhaps, but let me just try to delineate what these powers are. We have oversight hearings. We are having one now and we have the ability to offer legislation. That is our prerogative here in the Congress if it is signed by the president and if we have it through two houses. Ultimately there are people appointed by the president and members of the cabinet, subcabinet, they are confirmed by our committee and we try to ask questions of them, and the gentleman now who is handling the thing, Mr. Fiddick, came before the committee, as he pointed out, a year ago and seemed to us, at least at that point, to be a person that might make some headway in the system. That may or may not be the case. At least that is the sort of judgment that we have an opportunity to make. We do not manage the department. We try to help the department by illuminating these problems and you have been helpful in that respect today. I am just trying to come to grips with the levels. Is the Secretary empowered to change the council or at what level really is somebody in charge at the department? Mr. Lucas. Let me say this. The effort of former Secretary Espy to change the department and get to the culture with the employees and the farmers was admirable. The effort of this Secretary and the effort of this president who sent people down to the Department of Agriculture to solve this problem, and some of them are political appointees, have not served this president and this Secretary and this nation well. It is time-- -- The Chairman. Then perhaps they should remove them. Is that their---- Mr. Lucas. I think it is time to make some changes at the very top. You need to not have Mr. Fiddick overseeing civil rights because there is a conflict of interest. The Office of General Counsel should cease to be a barrier and all the reports that you had before this settlement, OGC was considered hostile to civil rights, especially to the black farmer situation. I do not see any change in that to this day. That is why you have increase of class actions by Hispanics, Asians, disabled, because you have an indifferent management that spends all its time and its effort supporting people in the courts and at these hearings with the taxpayers' money by sending OGC lawyers to protect them against us. They have made in so many words, Mr. Chair, turned good, decent American citizens into advocates and that should not be. The Chairman. Mr. Boyd. Mr. Boyd. Mr. Chairman, that if you look at Secretary Glickman as the overall view, he has tried. I agree with Lawrence that he had some inside people that are ill advising him on a lot of issues, Lawrence, as well, but where we really need to take a strong look at, Mr. Chairman, is the leadership within the Farm Service Agency as it relates to farmers, all farmers, whether you are talking about Hispanic farmers, Mr. Pires or the Indians or the black farmers. The gut and the root of the problem lies within Farm Service Agency. Why do we have a settlement of a billion dollars where we have not taken a strong look at the leadership of the agency that basically caused this discrimination? That is Farm Service Agency and if this committee would take a strong look at the leadership, possibly bring us some new leadership in Farm Service Agency, and then take a strong look at the local leadership just like Mr. Pires talked about, if someone has 15 or 20 complaints on them down in Mecklenburg or Brunswick County, Virginia, where a man was found sleeping when he was supposed to take application. He said the atmospheric pressure made him go to sleep on CBS 60 Minutes, this kind of nonsense, if we take a look at those people and hold those kind of people accountable, Mr. Chairman, I do not think it will take long for that information to trickle down through the system. You know bad news travels fast. If we made a few heads roll--I am going to go ahead and say the right terminology--I think that you will see a big difference in Farm Service Agency. The Chairman. Ms. Carranza. Ms. Carranza. I would like to reiterate the same thing. I would be the last person to defend Rosalind Gray. I have to say that I do not believe Ms. Gray caused the discrimination nor anybody in the Office of Civil Rights. They have been faulty in resolving this, but the big stumbling block from what I have seen in the Montana cases is the Regional Office of General Counsel and Mr. Rawls himself and the focus cannot be lost here that it is FSA from not the county committee but the county supervisor is the person who establishes what is going to happen and he is FSA. The county committee is just a bunch of dumb farmers in my county, like myself, but they take their direction from that person and that person, the county supervisor, takes his direction from the state office, and those two entities are protecting their ass. There is no other way of saying it, and there is a regulation that was passed by the Secretary's Office on June 30 of this year that said that when a USDA employee was found guilty of discrimination after a settlement had been reached, that those persons would be punished and that is what is stopping our cases from being resolved because once those settlements are finalized, those people's heads are going to roll and they are protecting themselves. The Chairman. Mr. Zippert. Mr. Zippert. I would just support the idea that some close look needs to be taken at the middle management levels, the state office level and the county level of the Farm Services Agency, because that is where a lot of the problem is and a lot of the decisions about credit and acreage and in relation to these committees. I would mention to you that this morning we had a presentation from the Inspector General and he was not aware of the things that we have brought out here about the problems in the democratic--he called it a democratic system and he was very proud of it. We need to go back and talk with the Inspector General about the standards on which he is judging this and maybe bring to his attention--I do not know if he stayed for the rest of the hearing--but we need to bring to his attention some of the other things that was said in this hearing. I think there is blame to go around here, that there are other people. You know if the person who oversees the process like that does not understand that they are in a lot of places in the South and probably places in Indian country, that there are problems with the way these committees work, then the whole premise on which he is examining the program may be wrong. I would say that we need to look at that. We need to look at FSA. We might need to look at FSA in comparison to some other groups like NRCS, maybe Foreign Agriculture Service, some others, who may be doing better and see where the problems are in that regard. If they really want to do an intensive internal look, I am not saying--there are probably complaints everywhere, but there are probably more complaints in FSA than anywhere else. The Chairman. Mr. Zippert, I just want to express appreciation to you. You have made reference to it and I would acknowledge the statistical data with regard to the elections, the procedures and what have you, which are very important illumination of this hearing and we will make certain that the Secretary, the Inspector General, and others have all of that testimony so that everyone at least is instructed as we have been by your testimony. Mr. Pires. Mr. Pires. Just a couple of things. I am trying to put myself in your shoes, if I may, to see what would be most helpful to you. There are just a couple of things that are very interesting about USDA and it is pure power. It is the second biggest Federal agency, but it is bigger in a different way. It is not raw dollars. It has a presence everywhere like the post office. We had until very recently 3,000 county offices. There is less now, maybe 2,500, but in agricultural America, USDA has a big presence everywhere. It has sometimes in some counties two offices, let alone one. There is a mind-set, and the mind-set that has been established, as I mentioned earlier, is that white males rule, but there is another mind-set, and that is when you go into the office, the mind-set that should be present is this is my government, I am coming in, I need a loan to farm. Farming is based upon borrowing in the spring, paying back after harvest in the fall unless you have a winter crop. This is still very much an agricultural country. USDA has tremendous lending ability. It is really one of the largest lenders in the world, but it is even deeper than that, Senator, because they give disaster programs, disaster loans. You are constantly trying to reach in there and look around the country, find out who is in trouble, come up with a disaster program, whether it is Indiana, this year, or Georgia. You know what you have to do every year. What about everybody else who is not a white male? Women-- you need to understand women are completely out of the system. To be a woman and go into a county office and think you are going to be serviced is a pipe dream. You are not going to get serviced because they are not attune to that. Hispanics, who are becoming an ever-increasing part of our population, particularly in the big four, California, Texas, Colorado, New Mexico, and they get very, very poor service. They are conditioned to be careful to go in to not to be as aggressive as the white male is. I can tell you in most parts of the South and the Midwest, white people are so used to service, they come in and they say how are you doing on my application? Their applications are filled out by the staff. How am I doing? How is my application coming? How am I doing this year? They expect the white structure to service them. It is very rare that a Hispanic person or a woman or a Native American ever walk into an office and say how is my application? Know what he would get or she would get? They would get an answer have a seat and I will get to you, and maybe they will and maybe they will not. I think for you, Mr. Chairman, the election process is one area and the second is if there was a little bit more of an oversight process where the Senate knew this year--for example, you asked a very good question, in terms of programs, how does USDA do against other programs as a percentage of complaints? Nobody knows. They only know EEOC. Nobody knows about programs. Second, nobody knows what happens to Hispanics, Native Americans, white women when they walk in. Nobody pays attention to it. It is not a statistic that is--yet Hispanics are going to end up being 20 percent of our population. We need help statistically. We need help. The Chairman. Yes, Mr. Boyd. Mr. Boyd. Mr. Chairman, I am going to have to leave in a minute. I wanted to make these last closing statements. Down in the same county I was talking about, the individual was sleeping in the office, there were certain days that African American farmers only could come in the office and get service. Mr. Pires. Black Thursday. Mr. Boyd. That was on--that is right. Mr. Pires. It is called Black Thursdays. Mr. Boyd. On Thursday, that was the only day you can come into the office. If a white farmer came in before you, he would see you and speak with him first. He would open the door while he discussed my personal business very loudly. Overall if we can bring some dignity and respect to the United States Department of Agriculture where it can treat its customers with dignity and respect, I do not think that would be asking too much. Certainly we found a way to disburse $8 billion in disaster relief last year, that we can find a way to disburse one or $1.5 billion to a group of needy people that desperately need that money. They are sitting at home right now waiting. They are sitting here now watching this hearing, wondering what is going to come out of this hearing. Will I get some results? Will I receive my check? A lot of these farmers have letters that say you will receive your check in 90 days. 90 days has come and gone twice and they have not received their checks. If the committee could look into it and ask the Justice Department to look into it as well, to find out what can be done to speed up the payment process for these much needed farmers, these are some things that we can do now and I hope that this committee will take those things into consideration and I hope that they will listen to the other distinguished members of this panel and come out of this hearing with some resolutions. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for giving me the opportunity to speak with you this afternoon. Thank you very much. The Chairman. Thank you for your testimony. We will raise the payment question with the department. Mr. Boyd. OK. The Chairman. As well as many other questions. Mr. Boyd. Sure. The Chairman. In specific answer to your request. Mr. Boyd. Thank you. The Chairman. Mr. Lucas. Mr. Lucas. Senator Lugar, as I heard the Office of Inspector General rave about how well things are going under the new leadership, I bring to mind three individual incidents which falls in the house of the Assistant Secretary for Administration and under Mr. Winningham. Very recently I was told before coming to these hearings that a woman in the state of Delaware filed a complaint of a housing complaint and was processed--was supposed to be processed under the administration, under new leadership of Mr. Winningham. This lady lost her property last week because the U.S. Department of Agriculture in this administration that you heard people raving about did not process her complaint as they do farmers. Let me give you two examples which falls in the house of the Assistant Secretary for Administration. I am questioning the accountability at the top and that is what you were asking. Here we have people, an Assistant Secretary for Administration, who you know and have worked with, called a jungle bunny and a wonder monkey by a group of white employees after the work hour, but yet and still the Office of Administration is not going to hold those individuals accountable. Under the same house when it comes to accountability, just recently a high level official told an Asian at an Asian meeting that if you suffer the glass ceiling, and Asians suffer from the glass ceiling at USDA at the GS-13 level, that person was told go and find another job. Now what I am saying to you is that we have a problem with leadership as it relates to civil rights and this, what you heard this morning, trying to put it all on the employee, it is a cultural and systemic problem and some of the people that have been given the job recently to do that job has not done it well. If we are going to hold the people in the Office of Civil Rights accountable, we need to hold Mr. Fiddick, we need to hold Mr. Winningham and we need to hold Mr. Rawls equally accountable for the mess that is going on at USDA and not doing something about the problem and not settling these class actions and not settling these employee complaints. That is where the problem is and we need to do something about that, too. Thank you. The Chairman. Thank you. Yes, Mr. Connor. Mr. Connor. What I would like to say is that before we filed our class action complaint, we actually had gone informally to upper level people. Actually, there was Mr. Roemiger, Mr. Rawls in a different position at that time, Mr. Dallis Smith, and these were people at the Secretary's level, deputy secretaries, and under secretaries. We discussed the issues we had with the Farm Service Agency on an informal basis and offered our services to help them to solve these problems. Basically, we just got the old wink and OK and everything is fine, but basically they did not listen to us. They just kept pushing us down and wanted to do a study and finally when we got the impression that we were being put off, we just went ahead and filed a complaint because we were not getting anywhere internally. That gets back to what we were talking about before. It is throughout the agency. The people up above want to put that nice face on it, but they had the opportunity right there to, as a matter of fact, that would have prevented us probably from filing our class complaint had they just listened to us and tried to do some things informally, and you have that culture inside the agency starting from top to bottom. The Chairman. I thank each one of you. Ms. Carranza, do you have a final comment? Ms. Carranza. Thank you. I would like a final comment. The Chairman. Yes. Ms. Carranza. For those of us that are not in a class action or part of any lawsuit, we have wanted our cases to be settled in the administrative process. There is a Senate bill in the Senate. It is called the USDA Civil Rights Resolution Act of 2000, Senate bill 2079. We would like you to consider that as an avenue for us to have our cases resolved. I would also like to ask for the record if the testimony submitted by the other Montana women could also be included in the record? The Chairman. Yes, it will be included in full. Ms. Carranza. Thank you. The Chairman. I thank each one of you. You have been illuminating, articulate and patient in a hearing that has been the better part of four hours but time very well spent. We are grateful to you. We will try to follow through on the suggestions you have made. The hearing is adjourned. 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[GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 70527.475 [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 70527.476 ======================================================================= QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS September 12, 2000 ======================================================================= [GRAPHIC] [TIFF OMITTED] 70527.195 -