[Senate Hearing 108-890]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
S. Hrg. 108-890
CONTINUING TO REFORM PROFESSIONAL BOXING
=======================================================================
HEARING
before the
COMMITTEE ON COMMERCE,
SCIENCE, AND TRANSPORTATION
UNITED STATES SENATE
ONE HUNDRED EIGHTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
__________
FEBRUARY 5, 2003
__________
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SENATE COMMITTEE ON COMMERCE, SCIENCE, AND TRANSPORTATION
ONE HUNDRED EIGHTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
JOHN McCAIN, Arizona, Chairman
TED STEVENS, Alaska ERNEST F. HOLLINGS, South Carolina
CONRAD BURNS, Montana DANIEL K. INOUYE, Hawaii
TRENT LOTT, Mississippi JOHN D. ROCKEFELLER IV, West
KAY BAILEY HUTCHISON, Texas Virginia
OLYMPIA J. SNOWE, Maine JOHN F. KERRY, Massachusetts
SAM BROWNBACK, Kansas JOHN B. BREAUX, Louisiana
GORDON SMITH, Oregon BYRON L. DORGAN, North Dakota
PETER G. FITZGERALD, Illinois RON WYDEN, Oregon
JOHN ENSIGN, Nevada BARBARA BOXER, California
GEORGE ALLEN, Virginia BILL NELSON, Florida
JOHN E. SUNUNU, New Hampshire MARIA CANTWELL, Washington
FRANK LAUTENBERG, New Jersey
Jeanne Bumpus, Republican Staff Director and General Counsel
Kevin D. Kayes, Democratic Staff Director and Chief Counsel
C O N T E N T S
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Page
Hearing held on February 5, 2003................................. 1
Statement of Senator Dorgan...................................... 28
Statement of Senator McCain...................................... 1
Prepared statement........................................... 3
Witnesses
Greenburg, Ross, President, HBO Sports........................... 6
Hauser, Thomas, Columnist and Author............................. 9
Prepared statement........................................... 11
Hopkins, Bernard, Middleweight Champion.......................... 4
Prepared statement........................................... 5
Pannella, Patrick, Executive Director, Maryland State Athletic
Commission..................................................... 20
Prepared statement........................................... 22
Sugar, Bert Randolph, Boxing Historian and Author................ 13
Prepared statement........................................... 15
CONTINUING TO REFORM PROFESSIONAL BOXING
----------
WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 5, 2003
U.S. Senate,
Committee on Commerce, Science, and Transportation,
Washington, DC.
The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 9:30 a.m. in room
SR-253, Russell Senate Office Building, Hon. John McCain,
Chairman of the Committee, presiding.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JOHN McCAIN,
U.S. SENATOR FROM ARIZONA
The Chairman. Good morning. We will begin this hearing. I
want to welcome the witnesses who are appearing before the
Committee today and thank those who made special arrangements
to be here. The purpose of this hearing is to examine the
current state of professional boxing so this Committee can
determine what steps should be taken to further reform this
sport.
Over the past 7 years, this Committee has been diligent in
its efforts to address the problems that have plagued the sport
of professional boxing. We have worked to enact two Federal
boxing laws, the Professional Boxing Safety Act of 1996, and
the Muhammad Ali Boxing Reform Act of 2000. These laws were
intended to establish minimum uniform standards to improve the
health and safety of boxers and to better protect them from the
often coercive, exploitative, and unethical business practices
of promoters, managers, and sanctioning organizations.
While these laws have had a positive impact on professional
boxing, the sport remains beset with a variety of problems,
some beyond the scope of local regulation, so we find ourselves
here again discussing many of the same problems surrounding
professional boxing. Promoters continue to steal fighters from
each other, sanctioning organizations make unmerited rating
changes without offering adequate explanations, promoters
refuse to pay fighters who have put their lives on the line,
local boxing commissions fail to ensure the protection of
boxers' health and safety, boxers are contractually and
financially exploited, and the list continues.
Nearly every week, my office receives a call from a parent
whose child was killed in a match asking why proper medical or
safety precautions were not taken by the local commission with
jurisdiction, and I receive calls from boxers who have worked
tirelessly to escape poverty, only to find themselves subject
to the exploitation of the unscrupulous few who control the
sport.
In light of the ongoing problems that continue to exist
within professional boxing, Senator Dorgan and I have
introduced the Professional Boxing Amendments Act of 2003. The
bill would strengthen existing Federal boxing law, and create a
Federal regulatory entity to oversee the sport. This entity
would be called The United States Boxing Administration, and
would be headed by an administrator appointed by the President
of the United States with the advice and consent of the Senate.
A very similar proposal was reported unanimously by this
Committee last September.
There has been quite a bit of confusion among local
commissions regarding the effect this bill would have on them.
Let me be clear, the purpose of the USBA would not be to
micromanage boxing by interfering with the daily operations of
local boxing commissions. Instead, the USBA would work in
consultation with local commissions and the USBA administrator
would only exercise his or her authority should reasonable
grounds exist for intervention.
Let me just mention a couple of things for the record that
are disturbing and saddening. On June 26, 2001, Beethavean
Scottland was knocked down in the last seconds of a fight in
New York City. He died from his injuries 6 days later. He was
the fourth boxer since 1979 to die from injuries sustained in
the ring in New York.
The New York State Athletic Commission conducted an
investigation to determine whether the fight should have been
stopped earlier. Two rounds before Mr. Scottland was knocked
unconscious, the ringside physician told the referee to not
allow Mr. Scottland to suffer any more blows.
On March 9, 2002, 42-year-old boxer Gregg Page was beaten
into a coma during a fight in Kentucky against 24-year-old Dale
Crowe. In violation of the Professional Boxing Safety Acts, no
ambulance was present onsite, and the ringside physician used
smelling salts to try to resuscitate Mr. Page. Smelling salts
actually poison the brain when it is in desperate need of
oxygen. Mr. Page underwent surgery to remove a blood clot from
his brain. His brain injuries are most likely permanent.
On April 27, 2002, it was reported that Joey Torres paid
his opponent, Perry Williams, $200 to take a dive in a fight in
Anaheim, California. Williams' second-round dive was so
obviously faked, swindled fans rioted and attacked Torres.
The list goes on. On July 22, the WBA lowered Mr. Johnson
from his position as the top-rated WBA heavyweight challenger
to fifth following his disqualification in a bout against Mr.
John Ruiz. In the WBA's August 2002 ratings, Mr. Johnson was
again lowered, this time from fifth to tenth. Both of these
reclassifications were made reportedly without WBA providing an
explanation for the change.
In addition to lowering Mr. Johnson in its ratings, the WBA
elevated three boxers, even though these boxers had not fought
in the previous few months.
The list goes on. On December 6, 2002, Christy Martin
defeated Mia St. John in a Pay-Per-View event at the Silverdome
in Michigan. The day before the fight, Martin voiced fears that
her promoter would not pay her. Martin proceeded to fight and
win, but her promoter has yet to pay her the 300,000-dollar
purse.
The IBF recently came under fire for its ranking of
fighters. With the number 1 and 2 rankings vacant, Sharmba
Mitchell had to fight Carlos Vilches for the number 1 ranking,
while Arturo Gatti was given the number 1 ranking without
fighting anybody.
Despite the fact that the Indiana Boxing Commission and the
WBC had agreed to the assignment of officials for the November
bout between Forrest and Shane Mosely, the WBC made subsequent
attempts to convince the Indiana commissioners to replace
multiple judges for the fight with those from the WBC's
appointed list of officials. In fact, it was reported that at
one point, the WBC had threatened to withdraw the WBC's
sanction of the fight if all of the officials for the Forrest
Mosely bout were not from the WBC's appointed list. By
interfering with the Indiana commission's assignment of
officials, the WBC overstepped its role as a sanctioning
organization and attempted to supersede the powers of a State's
regulatory agencies.
I would like to ask the first panel to come forward, Mr.
Bernard Hopkins, who is the middleweight champion of the world,
who is accompanied by his attorney, Arnold Joseph, and Mr. Ross
Greenburg, who is the president of HBO Sports, Mr. Thomas
Hauser, columnist and author, Mr. Bert Sugar, and Mr. Patrick
Pannella.
You are just in time, Bert.
I am happy to see the witnesses. I look forward to hearing
their statements, and I would like to just mention that I get
better information if we just have, after the opening
statements if we have a free flow of questions and answers in a
more informal way. That, I think, that is the best way that I
can get the record to be very clear, and I thank all of you for
coming, and Mr. Hopkins, welcome, and thank you for being here.
[The prepared statement of The Chairman follows:]
Prepared Statement of Hon. John McCain,
U.S. Senator from Arizona
I welcome the accomplished witnesses who are appearing before the
Committee today and thank those who made special arrangements to be
here.
The purpose of this hearing is to examine the current state of
professional boxing so that this Committee can determine what further
steps should be taken to further reform the sport.
Over the past seven years, this Committee has been diligent in its
efforts to address the problems that plague the sport of professional
boxing. We have worked to enact two federal boxing laws, the
Professional Boxing Safety Act of 1996, and the Muhammad Ali Boxing
Reform Act of 2000. These laws were intended to establish minimum
uniform standards to improve the health and safety of boxers, and to
better protect them from the often coercive, exploitative, and
unethical business practices of promoters, managers, and sanctioning
organizations. While these laws have had a positive impact on
professional boxing, the sport remains beset with a variety of
problems, some beyond the scope of local regulation.
So we find ourselves here again discussing many of the same
problems surrounding professional boxing. Promoters continue to steal
fighters from each other, sanctioning organizations make unmerited
ratings changes without offering adequate explanations, promoters
refuse to pay fighters who have put their lives on the line, local
boxing commissions fail to ensure the protection of boxers' health and
safety, boxers are contractually and financially exploited, and the
list continues. Nearly every week, my office receives a call from a
parent who's child was killed in a match asking why proper medical or
safety precautions were not taken by the local commission with
jurisdiction, and I receive calls from boxers who have worked
tirelessly to escape poverty, only to find themselves subject to the
exploitation of the unscrupulous few who control the sport.
In light of the ongoing problems that continue to exist within
professional boxing, Senator Dorgan and I have introduced the
Professional Boxing Amendments Act of 2003. The bill would strengthen
existing federal boxing law, and create a federal regulatory entity to
oversee the sport. This entity, which would be called the United States
Boxing Administration (USBA), would be headed by an Administrator
appointed by the President with the advice and consent of the Senate. A
very similar proposal was reported unanimously by this Committee last
September.
There has been quite a bit of confusion among local commissions
regarding the effect that this bill would have on them. Let me be
clear. The purpose of the USBA would not be to micro-manage boxing by
interfering with the daily operations of local boxing commissions.
Instead, the USBA would work in consultation with local commissions,
and the USBA Administrator would only exercise his/her authority should
reasonable grounds exist for intervention.
I look forward to hearing the views of our witnesses regarding this
legislative proposal and receiving their comments on how existing
federal boxing law can be strengthened.
STATEMENT OF BERNARD HOPKINS, MIDDLEWEIGHT CHAMPION
Mr. Hopkins. Thank you, Senator, in saying that. I would
just like to read a short statement, and then I will answer
questions.
Senator McCain, Members of the Committee, thank you for
giving me the opportunity to testify before you on an issue of
vital importance to me and over 1,000 other men and women who
put their lives on the line on a daily basis for others'
entertainment. I am currently preparing to participate in my
16th title defense. However, I have broken camp to be here,
because I take this proposed legislation seriously, and I want
to do all that I can to help make legitimate boxing reform a
reality.
As long as anyone can remember, gladiators have met in
arenas throughout the world to engage in battle for sport. I
rarely break camp for anything. I mean, my 16th defense, I am
38 years old, and all the days I have, I would like to use them
if possible, but this is so very, very important. I spoke in
1999, Senator, as you probably know. Thanks for the letter I
received from you years ago thanking me for showing up when
other fighters, for some reason, could not.
We desperately need help. I mean, I have a personal
situation in my family where my nephew is promoted and managed
by the same people--two different people, but still the same
people, and I thought the Muhammad Ali bill was in effect, and
so there are still a lot of problems and issues out there, and
I am here to give any insight as the undisputed middleweight
champion of the world. I have spoken before I was undisputed
middleweight champion of the world. Why wouldn't I speak now?
That is just my character.
If anybody has any questions, I am free to answer them the
best way I can, and before I exit this sport of boxing, for 15
years as a professional, I have not started stuttering yet, but
I do worry if I make a statement that does not sound right, if
it is catching up, but I have been blessed, and I want others
to come behind me to have things that were not in line for
Bernard Hopkins to reap the benefit from it, because I think it
is long overdue, and so I am here to give any insight to anyone
now and in the future, Senator.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Hopkins follows:]
Prepared Statement of Bernard Hopkins, Middleweight Champion
Senator McCain, Members of the Committee, thank you for giving me
the opportunity to testify before you on an issue of vital importance
to me and the over one thousand other men and women who put their lives
on the line on a daily basis for others' entertainment. I am currently
preparing to participate in my sixteenth title defense, however I have
broken camp to be here because I take this proposed legislation
seriously and I want to do all that I can to help make legitimate
boxing reform a reality.
For as far long as anyone can remember, gladiators have met in
arenas throughout the world to engage in battle for sport. Throughout
those years two things have remained constant: The gladiators have
given their all to the sport and some of those gladiators have been
exploited by a small group of shameless individuals who have profited
at the gladiators' expense. While most promoters, managers and agents
are decent human beings who clearly have the best interest of the
boxers in mind, there are a small minority who seek only personal gain
at any cost. Your legislation recognizes this and it attempts to level
the playing field. I applaud you for your efforts. I believe that S.
2550 will help my brother and sister boxers and me to maintain our
health, financial well being and dignity.
As you know, I am the undisputed middleweight champ of the world.
With that comes fame, money and notoriety. I am at the top of the game
so to speak. I fight in huge arenas before thousands of people. My
fights have been aired on HBO, Showtime and other networks so that
millions more can watch. I am trained for those fights by the best
trainers in the business and every part of my existence in those months
leading up to a fight are controlled and regulated down to the most
minute detail. It may sound great, but it is not. Not for me and less
so for the vast majority of professional boxers who pound away at each
other in cold, damp venues, before crowds of people who pay to see
blood and knockouts. We are often crippled and sometimes killed during
these events and in all cases are not fairly compensated for what we
do. I am paid Millions while most are paid hundreds to risk our lives.
Some do it because we love the sport. Most of us chose this profession
because it was the only way for us to rise up from our impoverished
backgrounds and get a small piece of the American Dream. We don't ask
for your sympathy or pity, we just ask to be treated fairly. We seek a
fair wage for our labor and to work in as safe an environment as
possible. You and your predecessors have helped create the minimum
wage, OSHA and other laws that help American workers, its time that you
give us the same protection.
While I am thankful for all that the fans have given me, I can not
keep quiet when I see that things are not right. My stature has given
me the opportunity to buck the system. I have been an outspoken
advocate for change. I have rejected multi-million dollar paydays
because the terms of the agreements presented to me were not fair. I
have this luxury because I have food in my refrigerator and money
invested in mutual funds. Other boxers cannot do this. They often are
forced to borrow money to feed their families between bouts. It is for
them that I have come to testify and hopefully you will keep them in
mind when you go back to your offices to consider this legislation. The
Muhammad Ali act was a great START. It attempted to do away with many
of those shady backdoor deals between promoters and managers that
forever doomed fighters to lives of indentured servitude. We were
locked into long term, lopsided contracts that ensured only that we
would have to fight until we were physically no longer able to do so.
Our retirements were spent working as security guards, chauffeurs, or
greeters at hotel/casinos. While the Act addressed some of those ills,
it was not enough. It had no teeth and no practical impact on the
average professional boxer. Promoters violated it with impunity because
they knew that for the most part there would be no negative
consequences.
Though I do not have the statistics to support it, I believe that
the average professional boxer lives at or below the poverty line. Only
a handful of boxers receive over Twenty Thousand Dollars per year in
purses. They live to fight and fight to live. They fight at the
promoters' whims and therefore do not have the luxury to reject purse
amounts, and exclusive promoter/manager agreements, when the agreements
violate the Act. Likewise, they do not have the resources and
information necessary to prosecute claims against promoters and
managers for violations of the Act.
Creation of the USBA will help. It will provide the uniformity and
fairness that boxing so desperately needs. The sanctioning
organizations need to be forced to come up with clear, logical and fair
ways to rank boxers. I need to know the extent of the relationship
between the sanctioning organizations and the promoters of the other
top ranked middleweights. Safety standards should be uniform. I need to
know that the commissioner in Nevada is just as concerned about the
health and well being of my opponent and me as the commissioner in New
York. Sanctioning organizations should not have a role in assigning
judges or referees to fights.
Despite your good intentions, however, I must add that we still
need more. There should be mandatory arbitration provisions placed in
every promotional agreement which afford boxers a fast and less costly
means by which to challenge provisions of the contracts. The U.S.
Attorney General and the chief law enforcers in every state should all
commit themselves to enforcing this Act. There should also be a
provision which would allow for private causes of action for violations
of the Act and promoters and managers should be liable for treble
damages and attorney fees if they violate provisions of the act. When
the promoters renew their license every two years consideration should
be given to whether they have violated this act. The USBA should do
whatever is necessary to make boxers, promoters and managers aware of
its rules. This legislation does no one any good if its provisions are
kept secret.
Thank you so much for caring enough to draft this legislation. I
hope that you consider these comments when considering the final
provisions of this Act. I thank you for allowing me to testify.
The Chairman. I thank you very much. You are a great
champion, and you are showing courage outside the ring by
appearing here today, and I am grateful you are here, and I
will have some questions for you after the other panelists, and
thank you, and I am very hopeful that your breaking camp does
not in any way impair your upcoming performance.
Mr. Hopkins. No, it will not, Senator. It will not.
The Chairman. Thank you.
Mr. Greenburg, welcome. Mr. Greenburg, for the record, is
president of HBO Sports.
STATEMENT OF ROSS GREENBURG, PRESIDENT, HBO SPORTS
Mr. Greenburg. Good morning, Mr. Chairman. My name is Ross
Greenburg, and I am president of HBO Sports. I am here today to
express HBO's support for the bill originally proposed by
Senators McCain and Dorgan for submission in 2002 and then
titled S. 2550, the Professional Boxing Amendments Act of 2002.
HBO is the world's leading telecaster of professional
boxing matches. For the last 30 years, we have televised some
of the most exciting and memorable boxing events in history,
and these events remind us that at its best, this sport can
produce an unparalleled level of drama, competitiveness, and
heroism. Having been a producer and executive producer for HBO
Sports for 22 years, I had the privilege of being in the HBO
production truck for many of these events, helping to bring the
excitement and drama to our viewers.
Boxing is also a very significant part of the overall
programming package HBO offers to our subscribers. Indeed,
boxing is one of the most important reasons many of our
subscribers sign up for HBO. Since we are a monthly
subscription service, we must continuously satisfy our
subscribers and appeal to potential subscribers by offering the
best and most compelling programming possible. This would
include programming such as the award-winning miniseries Band
of Brothers, the critically acclaimed series, The Sopranos,
movies, documentaries, concerts, and sporting events.
Accordingly, HBO pays millions of dollars in license fees in
order to enable our subscribers to consistently watch the best
boxers in the world participate in the most exciting and
competitive fights.
Because we are deeply committed to boxing both on an
emotional and a business level, HBO has long been a leader in
attempting to develop ways to improve the sport. Boxers for far
too long have been exploited by unfair and coercive practices
and had their health, safety, and economic well-being treated
as an afterthought. Questionable ratings of fighters and
questionable decisions have too often deprived deserving
fighters of their due, and have caused many in the public to
turn away from the sport. For these reasons, HBO was an early
and vocal supporter of the Professional Boxing Safety Act of
1996, and the Muhammad Ali Boxing Reform Act of 2000. Likewise,
we support S. 2550.
We believe that the best way to ensure uniform adherence to
the standards set forth in the existing Federal legislation is
through the development of a national oversight body with
enforcement power. It is only through a body with such far-
reaching power that problems which have long plagued boxing,
such as physical and economic exploitation of boxers, conflicts
of interest, questionable judging, and suspect rankings by
certain sanctioning organizations finally can be effectively
addressed.
We also support S. 2550's articulation of a functionality
test and its definition of promoter. We agree that any entity
which, in fact, has a promotional agreement with a boxer and
which, in fact, is primarily responsible for organizing and
promoting a boxing match should be subject to the provisions of
the act, whether that entity be a television network, a casino,
or a sponsor. Under those circumstances, it would be entirely
appropriate, to the extent that a company has assumed the role
and the related functions which have been the source of the
coercive and unfair practices which this legislation seeks to
curtail, to regulate those functions of the company.
However, it would be patently unfair and wrong to, as some
have suggested, define and regulate telecasters that televise
boxing matches as promoters per se, whether such telecasters
are subscription programming services like HBO, broadcast
networks like NBC, or cable networks like ESPN.
Likewise, it would be wrong to so define and regulate other
entities, such as casinos, which may play a significant role in
a boxing match, including being a major source of revenue, but
do not act as the promoter for the match. The view that
television networks should be regulated as if they were
promoters reflects a misperception that the television industry
and boxing promoters perform roughly the same function and have
similar relationships with and economic power over boxers. This
simply is untrue.
Telecasters are not in a position to and do not engage in
the coercive and unfair practices at issue here. Telecasters
have not made exorbitant profits at a fighter's expense, hidden
revenues from a fighter, or used surrogates to double-dip from
a fighter. Television executives have not created abhorrent
conflicts of interest by having their fathers, brothers,
stepsons, or agents serve as a fighter's manager. Telecasters
do not enter into contracts with fighters which have indefinite
terms and minimal obligations. Telecasters do not have
symbiotic relationships with sanctioning organizations, and
have not influenced rankings. Telecasters do not have close
working relationships with judges, and are not in a position to
influence judges by arranging for their travel, accommodations,
expenses, or by having the power to give them lucrative
assignments.
Rather, telecasters purchase the rights to televise fights
from a promoter, and then televise those fights. In contrast,
the promoter controls and arranges all aspects of a boxing
match, including all revenue streams and expenses, all
sanctioning, and the travel tickets, accommodations, and per
diem for the fighters, their associates, and other officials.
A boxing match cannot take place without a promoter. On the
other hand, most boxing matches are not televised, particularly
those involving boxers who are the least well-known and most
vulnerable to exploitation. Because of such total control, a
promoter has a unique opportunity to exploit and coerce boxers
and engage in other inappropriate conduct, and is the proper
subject of regulation.
Some have argued that HBO should be regulated because it
pays large license fees and sometimes enters into exclusive
multifight agreements. They also argue that because HBO
attempts to use the power of the purse to purchase television
rights to the fights it wants to televise, it somehow is
exercising undue influence. These arguments defy logic. There
is nothing unequal, coercive, or unfair about this process.
Fighters and their promoters willingly and eagerly enter into
multifight agreements with HBO and accept HBO's top-of-the-
market license fees. HBO's multifight agreements involve only
the very best, well-known boxers who, with their promoters,
possess substantial market value and negotiating power.
Also, let us not forget that the promoter and the fighter
will take the HBO license fee, pool the money with site
sponsorship and foreign revenue to increase the moneys
available for the entire promotion. It would turn free market
principles on their head to subject telecasters like HBO to
regulation merely because, as a result of arm's length
bargaining, they enter into agreements to pay large, fixed
license fees in exchange for the exclusive rights to televise a
boxer's matches over a fixed period of time.
HBO's offering large license fees to a promoter to purchase
the television rights to a boxing match between two top
fighters is no different than a network offering large fees to
purchase the television rights to a tennis match or a golf
match. To draw another analogy, when television networks pay
billions of dollars in rights to the NFL, the disbursement of
such revenues, along with all other revenues, to the teams and
the players is covered by agreements and rules between the
league, the teams, and the players. No one would suggest that
the networks, too, should be regulated as part of this process
simply because they contribute large amounts of money to the
revenue pool.
In conclusion, we believe that the legislation enacted over
the last several years, together with the legislation like S.
2550, can dramatically improve the sport of boxing for its fans
and, most importantly, for the fighters, both well-known and
unknown, who have been ignored and exploited for too long.
Thank you
The Chairman. Thank you very much.
Mr. Hauser, welcome. Please proceed.
STATEMENT OF THOMAS HAUSER, COLUMNIST AND AUTHOR
Mr. Hauser. I would like to thank you, Senator McCain, for
the honor of being invited here today. I will get very quickly
to the issues at hand. We are far past the point where we can
blame the world sanctioning organizations and a handful of
promoters for all of the corruption in professional boxing. The
entire system is corrupt, and some of the worst enablers are in
positions of power at State athletic commissions.
For 8 years, the New York State Athletic Commission has
been shamelessly run as a slush fund for a political party.
Data made available by the New York Department of State
indicates that, prior to recent budget cuts, it cost $87,000
per fight card to regulate boxing in New York. By contrast,
last year it cost Nevada only $5,400 per card to regulate
professional boxing.
The Chairman. Would you explain that?
Mr. Hauser. Yes. If you take the total budget of the New
York State Athletic Commission----
The Chairman. I mean, why would it cost that much money?
Mr. Hauser. Because the New York State Athletic Commission
has many no-show jobs, people are paid exorbitant fees. There
are sweetheart rent deals for office space. The whole system is
corrupt from top to bottom.
When you have a fight in New York, they will bring 20
people down from upstate New York, most of whom do work for
local political clubs up there, or are the sons of political
contributors. They fly them down to New York at State expense,
they put them up at hotels in New York, they give them per diem
money, instead of simply having somebody come by subway to the
fight. $87,000 per fight card in New York, compared to $5,400
per fight card in Nevada, and that is not even counting the
fact that Nevada, as part of that budget, also regulates about
20 tough man contests a year. The New York system is corrupt.
Mr. Hopkins. If I said that, I would get sued. If I said
what he just said, I would have a lawsuit in 2 days in front of
my door, getting served, because I am a fighter and I have to
go get a lawyer, and I have to go pay for litigation. It would
drain me out. I would get sued. I mean, this is amazing to me--
excuse me for cutting you off, I do not want to be ignorant----
Mr. Hauser. That's okay.
Mr. Hopkins.--but it is amazing that he said what he said,
and--just assuming--and I am going to tell you, he is telling
you the truth. I am telling you, Bernard Hopkins, Tom Hauser is
telling the truth, but if I say that as a fighter----
The Chairman. Is that on the advice of counsel there?
[Laughter.]
Mr. Hopkins. Yes, that is what the whisper was.
[Laughter.]
Mr. Hopkins. He knows I am very vocal, and I am never going
to change that. I mean, that is what got me where I am at
today. Excuse me, Tom.
Mr. Hauser. To continue on that note, when Evander
Holyfield fought Lennox Lewis at Madison Square Garden, the New
York State Athletic Commission assigned 25 inspectors and
demanded 67 ringside credentials. By contrast, Nevada assigns
no more than six inspectors to any given fight card.
The Chairman. And it was a terrible fight.
Mr. Hauser. It could have been better, but HBO did a good
job of broadcasting it. On the night of the Holyfield-Lewis
fight at Madison Square Garden, Robert Duffy, who is the New
York State Athletic Commission director of boxing, assigned two
inspectors to each fighter's corner, then he was overruled, and
four different inspectors with strong political ties were given
the assignment. One of those inspectors had never worked a
fight before in his life. You do not start your career as a
ring inspector in the corner at a unification fight for the
undisputed heavyweight championship of the world.
The Chairman. On the assumption that there is no such thing
that there is a dumb question, what is an inspector?
Mr. Hauser. At a fight, each corner has one, or in the case
of a major fight, sometimes two inspectors who are in the
corner.
The Chairman. To do what?
Mr. Hauser. They are supposed to make sure that the fighter
is not given any banned substance between rounds and there is
no tampering with the gloves. You have to know what you are
doing in the corner.
The Chairman. I see. I understand.
Mr. Hauser. These guys did not. Duffy complained about
these assignments and was told--and this is a direct quote--
hey, Duffy, you don't understand, we won the election. Duffy
was subsequently forced out of his job. The man who made that
comment to him now runs the New York State Athletic Commission
on a daily basis.
Until recently, the Nevada State Athletic Commission was
considered the best-run athletic commission in the country. A
number of dedicated, competent public servants like executive
director Mark Ratner still work there, but the Nevada State
Athletic Commission is now a textbook example of conflicts of
interest run amok. Tony Alamo is a senior vice president at
Mandalay Bay Resort and Casino, and the man primarily
responsible for overseeing boxing at Mandalay Bay. Tony Alamo,
Jr. sits on the Nevada State Athletic Commission, which is
charged with regulating his father's boxing promotions. The
situation was further exacerbated on January 13 of this year,
when Edwin ``Flip'' Homansky, a nationally respected
administrator----
The Chairman. He has testified before this Committee.
Mr. Hauser.--was removed as vice chairman of the Nevada
commission and replaced by Tony Alamo, Jr. It might be that
Tony Alamo, Jr. is totally independent of his father, but
everyone in boxing who I have talked with doubts it, and his
presence on the Nevada State Athletic Commission----
The Chairman. Who makes--the Governor makes those
appointments?
Mr. Hauser. The Governor makes those appointments, and
then, in the case of Mr. Alamo, once he was appointed, Luther
Mack, who is the chairman of the commission, unilaterally
removed Mr. Homansky and installed Mr. Alamo, Jr. in that
position, and Mr. Alamo's presence on the Nevada State Athletic
Commission sends a powerful message regarding Government-
sanctioned conflicts of interest.
Also, nationwide, many State athletic commissions are
afraid to enforce the laws that Congress has passed because
they know that if they do, big fights will simply go elsewhere.
I will give you an example. Section 11(d)(1) of the Muhammad
Ali Boxing Reform Act requires all sanctioning organizations to
submit a complete description of their ratings to the Federal
Trade Commission and the Association of Boxing Commissions.
Each of the major sanctioning organizations purports to have
filed this information. The problem is, most of their filings
are fraudulent.
The World Boxing Association had a dead man ranked in the
top 10 of its supermiddleweight division for 4 months. During
that same 4-month period, the dead man rose in the rankings
from number 7 to number 5.
This past autumn, the World Boxing Association released
rankings that were so outrageous, and in the heavyweight
division, so tied to the interests of one promoter, that you
yourself wrote a letter of protest. Section 6 of the Ali act
provides that the chief law enforcement officer of any State
may bring a civil action to enjoin the holding within its
borders of any professional boxing match related to a false
filing. No such civil action has ever been brought.
Section 6 of the Ali act also provides that a world
sanctioning organization that files incomplete or false
information shall not be entitled to receive any compensation
in connection with a boxing match, including sanctioning fees.
That provision is not being enforced by any State.
And section 6 of the Ali act provides that violation of the
disclosure requirements is a criminal offense punishable by up
to 1 year in prison and a fine of up to $100,000.
The Criminal Division of the Justice Department is
responsible for these prosecutions, but no such indictment has
ever been brought. Why have laws if no one is going to enforce
them? Boxing needs strong Federal regulation by knowledgeable
personnel who assume their positions of power without conflicts
of interest, and while we are waiting for legislation to create
this regulation, I respectfully suggest that it is imperative
for the Federal Government to act now, through criminal
prosecutions as well as civil lawsuits brought by the Justice
Department and Federal Trade Commission to enforce the laws as
they are currently written.
This Committee cannot rely on State athletic commissions to
clean up boxing, and the Association of Boxing Commissions is
nothing but a collective of the same officials who have failed
to enforce the law on the State level.
Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Hauser follows:]
Prepared Statement of Thomas Hauser, Columnist and Author
I'd like to thank the Committee for the honor of being invited here
today and get very quickly to the issues at hand.
We're far past the point where we can blame the world sanctioning
organizations and a handful of promoters for all of the corruption in
professional boxing. The entire system is corrupt, and some of the
worst enablers are in positions of power at state athletic commissions.
For eight years, the New York State Athletic Commission has been
shamelessly run as a slush fund for a political party. Data made
available by the New York Department of State indicates that, prior to
recent budget cuts, it cost $87,000 per fight card to regulate boxing
in New York. By contrast, last year it cost Nevada only $5,400 per card
to regulate professional boxing.
When Evander Holyfield fought Lennox Lewis at Madison Square
Garden, the New York State Athletic Commission assigned 25 inspectors
and demanded for 67 ringside credentials. By contrast, Nevada employs
only sixteen inspectors statewide and assigns no more than six
inspectors to any given fight card.
On the night of the Holyfield-Lewis fight at Madison Square Garden,
Robert Duffy (who was the New York State Athletic Commission director
of boxing) assigned two inspectors to each fighter's corner. Then he
was overruled, and four different inspectors with strong political ties
were given the assignment. One of those inspectors had never worked a
fight before in his life. You don't start your career as a ring
inspector in the corner at a unification fight for the undisputed
heavyweight championship of the world. Duffy complained and was told--
and this is a direct quote--``Hey, Duffy; you don't understand. We won
the election.''
Duffy was subsequently forced out of his job. The man who made that
comment to him now runs the New York State Athletic Commission on a
daily basis.
Until recently, the Nevada State Athletic Commission was considered
the best-run athletic commission in the country. A number of dedicated
competent public servants like executive director Marc Ratner still
work there. But the Nevada State Athletic Commission is now a textbook
example of conflicts of interest run amok.
Tony Alamo is a senior vice president at Mandalay Bay Resort and
Casino and the man primarily responsible for overseeing boxing at
Mandalay Bay. Tony Alamo, Jr. sits on the Nevada State Athletic
Commission, which is charged with regulating his father's boxing
promotions. The situation was further exacerbated on January 13th of
this year, when Edwin ``Flip'' Homansky (a nationally respected
administrator) was removed as vice chairman of the Nevada Commission
and replaced by Tony Alamo, Jr.
It might be that Tony Alamo, Jr. is totally independent of his
father. But everyone in boxing who I've talked with doubts it. And his
presence on the Nevada State Athletic Commission sends a powerful
message regarding government-sanctioned conflicts of interest.
Also, nationwide, many state athletic commissions are afraid to
enforce the laws that Congress has passed because they know that, if
they do, big fights will simply go elsewhere.
I'll give you an example.
Section 11(d)(1) of the Muhammad Ali Boxing Reform Act requires all
sanctioning organizations to submit a complete description of their
ratings criteria to the Federal Trade Commission and the Association of
Boxing Commissions. Each of the major sanctioning organizations
purports to have filed this information. The problem is, most of their
filingsare fraudulent.
The World Boxing Organization had a dead man ranked in the top ten
of its super-middleweight division for four months. During that same
four-month period, the dead man rose in the rankings from number seven
to number five.
This past autumn, the World Boxing Association released rankings
that were so outrageous and, in the heavyweight division, so tied to
the interests of one promoter that Senator McCain of this Committee
wrote a letter of protest.
Section 6 of the Ali Act provides that the chief law enforcement
officer of any state may bring a civil action to enjoin the holding
within its borders of any professional boxing match related to a false
filing. No such civil action has ever been brought.
Section 6 of the Ali Act also provides that a world sanctioning
organization that files incomplete or false information shall not be
entitled to receive any compensation, directly or indirectly, in
connection with a boxing match including sanctioning fees. That
provision is not being enforced by any state.
And Section 6 of the Ali Act provides that violation of the
disclosure requirements is a criminal offense punishable by up to one
year in prison and a fine of up to $100,000. The Criminal Division of
the Justice Department is responsible for these prosecutions, but no
such indictment has ever been brought.
Why have laws if no one is going to enforce them?
Boxing needs strong federal regulation by knowledgeable personnel
who assume their positions of power without conflicts of interest. And
while we're waiting for legislation to create this regulation, I
respectfully suggest that it's imperative for the federal government to
act now through criminal prosecutions as well as civil lawsuits brought
by the Justice Department and Federal Trade Commission to enforce the
laws as they're currently written.
This Committee cannot rely on state athletic commissions to clean
up boxing. And the Association of Boxing Commissions is nothing but a
collective of the same officials who have failed to enforce the law on
the state level.
The Chairman. Thank you very much. Welcome back, Mr. Sugar.
STATEMENT OF BERT RANDOLPH SUGAR, BOXING HISTORIAN AND AUTHOR
Mr. Sugar. I thank you for inviting me back again to
testify. Since the last time we foregathered to discuss the
state of the union of boxing, it has continued to be one of
disunion, continuing on its merry way, committing mistakes and
misdeeds and what-have-you's. For although boxing is a sport in
its own right, it is also a sport in its own wrong. And the
primary culprits are those clowns in clowns' clothing, these
sanctioning bodies we call ``The Alphabets,'' or Alphabet
Soups, a term I coined somewhere back in the early 1980s when I
was the editor of Ring Magazine to describe these
organizations, all of whom seem to be dedicated to the belief
that you can fool too many of the people too much of the time.
For references, I give you the WBC (without the Henny
Youngman punchline of ``Take them, please''). When Roy Jones,
Jr. announced he would leave the light heavyweight division,
vacating his title, for the first time, to campaign as a
heavyweight, then to fight Buster Douglas, the WBC declared
that title vacant. They even matched two contenders--collecting
sanctioning fees, calling it a championship fight. And the
fight was won by a fighter out of Germany, Graciano
Rocchigiani. He was awarded a championship belt. It was in all
the papers. He was sent congratulatory messages by Jose
Suleiman, the president of this wonderful group. It was on all
their rating listings.
And then when Roy Jones decided to come back, all of that
disappeared. He no longer was champion. They changed their
mind, thank you, cashed the check and went home. He attributed
all of it to a ``typographical error'' in the lists.
Then there is the WBA.
The Chairman. He was able to win a judgment in court.
Mr. Sugar. Let him collect it. You are right, he got a
judgment for this, because somehow, someway, somewhere, a
German television network had offered a $6 million contract
contingent on his being a champion.
The Chairman. You do not think he will ever collect the
money?
Mr. Sugar. No, you know, unless he can enforce this in
Mexico. This is the same country that let Jose Sulaiman----
The Chairman. This is the problem with these outfits that
are located overseas, right?
Mr. Sugar. Well, in part, yes, but remember, Jose Sulaiman
is the man they arrested once for having found all of these
artifacts--Inca, Mayan artifacts--and he got out of it. He was
just storing them for safekeeping from the courts. That sort of
gave him a----
The Chairman. You do not think they will ever collect the
30-million-dollar judgment?
Mr. Sugar. Senator McCain, I view you as a very intelligent
man.
The Chairman. Please proceed.
[Laughter.]
Mr. Sugar. Sure. Then there is the WBA, which issued
ratings which belonged in a Lewis Carroll fictional work. It
has been touched upon. There were fighters leapfrogging over
other fighters because they were connected with one promoter,
and when they were met with howls of indignation by other
promoters and scathing criticism from the press, they ``mea
culpa'd.'' They said, oh, it was just a computer error. Here we
have a typographical error, there we have a computer error.
And finally, there is that third, wonderful organization,
that third wonderful alphabet, the IBF, which after their head,
Bobby Lee, was convicted on several charges, one of which
should have been arrogance, the IBF was placed under a
Government monitor, and that has not even stopped him.
Just last week, Tim Smith, in the New York Daily News wrote
about the time when a Washington fighter, Sharmba Mitchell,
fought in a 12-round eliminator contest, paid a sanctioning
fee, and was basically pushed aside by another fighter, Arturo
Gatti, whose promoters did not want to pay the fee, did not
want to fight 12 rounds, just 10. The reason? The head of the
IBF membership committee had not even communicated with the
head of the IBF championship committee. And this is under a
Government monitor. Wonderful!
Gentlepersons, and I say that, albeit the seats are empty,
because Senator Boxers and Snowe are members of this august
body, enough is enough is enough. We have had typographical
errors, we have had computer errors, we have had
noncommunication errors.
I remember several years ago, more years than I want to
remember, when my then-little daughter came downstairs and she,
holding a kitten in her hand, said, the cat having gone into
her closet to give birth, ``daddy, the cat has fallen apart.''
Well, boxing has fallen apart, and I think it is up to this
Committee, like all of those King's men who tried to put
Humpty-Dumpty together, to try--I am not saying they will--to
put it back together again. If a journey of 1,000 miles begins
with one step, you need a road map. And there are two things
that have to be done: number 1 of which is, this IBF monitor
has to be monitored himself, if, in fact, they can even
communicate.
Why? Because the committee and the Muhammad Ali reform bill
coming out of government will only inspire confidence if the
first government incursion into boxing is successful and clean,
and like Caesar's wife, beyond repute. We cannot have them
wandering around the landscape and everybody will say, well,
look, but, the Federal Government has done nothing, because
they cannot even get the ratings right and the championships
right. If you do not oversee somehow what has been done there
and make sure that they are the model, at least on that level,
that you want.
The second point I make quickly is that the other two
alphabets, as you alluded to, headquartered in Caracas and
Mexico City, I am sure above some charm and beauty school down
there, have got to be brought to their, if not heels and knees,
attention. The way to do that is, if they do not conform,
impound the sanctioning fees paid by American and foreign
fighters when they fight here in the U.S.
How so? The WBA, out of Venezuela, the WBC out of Mexico,
come here to make money. They get a percentage of the
sanctioning fees. There is more of a percentage if they fight
in the U.S., and if they do not conform, then--and they come
here for the same reason Willy Sutton robbed banks, because
this is where the money is--the sanctioning fee should be
impounded or put in escrow until they conform. Then, they, too,
will pay more than attention. They will pay money.
Senator McCain, to do otherwise, and not give the Muhammad
Ali bill the teeth it needs, is equivalent to burying your
heads in the sand, and that will bring a very inviting target
for critics. I hope that never comes.
Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Sugar follows:]
Prepared Statement of Bert Randolph Sugar, Boxing Historian and Author
Senator McCain and Members of the Senate Committee on Commerce,
Science and Transportation, thank you for inviting me back again to
testify.
Since the last time we foregathered to discuss the state of the
union of boxing it has continued to be one of disunion, continuing on
its merry, committing mistakes and misdeeds. For although boxing is a
sport in its own right, it is also a sport in its own wrong.
And the primary culprits are those clowns in clowns' clothing,
those sanctioning bodies called ``The Alphabets''--shorthand for ``The
Alphabet Soups,'' a term I coined as editor of Ring Magazine back in
the early 1980s to describe organizations like the WBC, the WBA and the
IBF, all dedicated to the belief that you can fool too many people too
much of the time.
For references, I give you the WBC (without the Henny Youngman
punchline: take them, please!) When Roy Jones Jr. announced he would
leave the light heavyweight division, vacating his title, to campaign
as a heavyweight for the first time, the WBC declared its light
heavyweight title vacant and matched the two contenders for what they
called a ``championship fight''--co1lecting the necessary sanctioning
fees, thank you! And although the fight was won by Graciano Rocchigiani
and he was awarded a championship belt--which looked like it was made
out of the broken Budweiser bottles found on the San Diego Freeway--and
was listed in the WBC ratings sheets for several months as their
``champion,'' when Jones returned to the light heavyweight division,
the WBC changed their minds and their designation, taking away
Rocchigiani's title, claiming it was all, and I quote, a
``typographical error.,''
Then there is the WBA, which issued ratings which belonged in a
Lewis Carroll fictional work with fighters leap-frogging over other
fighters after they had signed with a certain promoter. When they were
met with howls of indignation by other promoters and scathing criticism
from the press, they mea culpa'd and changed them, claiming they had
been, in their words, the result of ``a computer error.''
And, finally, there is that third wonderful ``Alphabet,'' the IBF,
which, after their head was convicted on several charges, up to and
including arrogance, was placed under a government monitor by the
court. But that hasn't stopped them. Only recently Tim Smith of the New
York Daily News brought to light a ``mux-ip'' which occurred when a
fighter, Sharmba Mitchell, won an ``eliminator'' bout, having paid the
appropriate sanctioning fees for the 12-round championship-length
fight, was passed over in their ratings by another fighter, Arturo
Gotti, who, not incidentally, had won a 10-round fight without paying
sanctioning fees. The reason given by the IBF was-get this--that the
head of the IBF ratings committee and the head of the IBF championship
committee had not communicated with one another. And this is an
organization under a government monitor!
Gentlepersons (and I say that because Senators Barbara Boxer and
Olympia Snowe are members of this august body), enough is enough is
enough! Enough with ``typographical errors.'' Enough with ``computer
errors.'' Enough with ``non communication.''
I remember, lo those many years ago, when my then-young daughter
came down the stairs holding a newborn kitten in her hands after the
cat had gone into her closet and given birth, saying, ``The cat has
just fallen apart.'' Well, today boxing has fallen apart. And this
Committee must act, like all those king's men tried to do with Humpty
Dumpty, to put it back together again.
And if, as has been said, a journey of a thousand miles begins with
a single step, we still, need a road map. Here, I hope, is one . . .
First, as an oversight Committee, you shouldn't lose sight of the
fact that the IBF is currently being run by a government monitor. Here
you must become guardians of not only law and order, but order itself
by monitoring the government monitor to insure that the IBF becomes a
model organization. Only in that way can you inspire the necessary
confidence in the boxing community that the government's Muhammad Ali
Reform Act will be more effective than the government-run IBF is. And
that what the Muhammad Ali Bill proposes to do, it will do.
And, secondly, if those two other ``Alphabets,'' headquartered in
Mexico City and Caracas--probably located somewhere above charm and
beauty schools--the WBC and the WBA, don't conform to your reforms,
then initiate sanctions on these sanctioning bodies. For they come to
the U. S. for the same reason Willie Sutton robbed banks, ``cause
that's where the money is.'' And when they do, if they don't conform,
impound the sanctioning fees they collect from fighters fighting here.
Then they, too, will pay more than attention.
To do otherwise and not give the Muhammad Ali Bill teeth means
burying your head in the sand. And that can invite a very inviting
target for critics.
The Chairman. Thanks, Bert.
Just before we go to Mr. Pannella, some thought that the
fact that ratings would be put in USA Today, once a week, I
believe, would have some beneficial effect. It seems to me it
has had no effect.
Mr. Sugar. Well, their ratings--and Dan Rafael is a very
good writer, by the bye----
The Chairman. Yes.
Mr. Sugar.--are predicated on the traditional 8 divisions.
There just happen to be 17 divisions. This is what I meant when
I said boxing has fallen apart. When I was a kid, and that goes
back 20,000 years, there were eight divisions, and every
champion was a world champion, a Bernard Hopkins. There are now
17 divisions, and there can be as many as 68 champions because
of four sanctioning bodies--the WBO, which is the one that had
the dead man rising, 68 champions. I think, Senator McCain, you
are the only person who does not own a belt.
The Chairman. Mr. Hopkins, how many titles have you held?
Mr. Hopkins. I have held the IBF championship since 1995. I
am going on my eighth-plus year. I have been the undisputed
middleweight champion since September 29 of 2001, when I beat
Felix Trinidad.
The Chairman. That means all of the other WBC, WBA, all of
those, and IBF.
Mr. Hopkins. IBF, yes. They all get sanctioning fees, as
Bert spoke about earlier. Thank God, I am self-managed since
1995. I have been calling my own shots, with advice from people
as I go along, but that is 9 or 10 percent out the window just
with the sanctioning fees that have to be paid to wear their
belt and give them recognition. When I became undisputed,
worked so hard for so many years to become the number one
champion in the division, which there are so many divisions, as
Mr. Sugar alluded to, is that once I achieved that, it was
greatness. They named me superchampion.
They called me a superchampion, and called William Joppey,
the WBA champion, world champion, so now not only do they get
sanctioning fees from me when I fight March 29 at the Spectrum
in Philadelphia, my home town, they also will get sanctioning
fees from William Joppey when he is fighting.
Now, I do not have any college degree, but that is double-
dipping. Senator McCain, we could have meetings--and it is good
that we are here. A lot of fighters are scared to speak up. I
am going to tell you, I am going to speak for my fellow
fighters. A lot of them feel that it is going to be business as
usual, and they are going to be left out there alone. It is
like, go out there and speak your mind. You have got stories.
You can shed some light on your sport, and then you have no
phone calls.
If you do these things, they are scared of repercussions. I
mean, most of us did not come from Harvard or Yale or Stanford,
and make over $100,000 a year jobs. You know where we come
from. I read a couple of your statements on the Internet and
things like that. A lot of us do not want to risk that.
I am not saying I am better, but I am different. I spoke
when I did not have three belts. I am going to speak even
louder now because at least for a quote or a picture, they
would talk to the undisputed champion of the world.
Ross Greenburg from HBO has done a great job when he took
over the spot Lou Rubella held. They cannot control boxing and
what promoters do. But I always ask myself, and I might ask
Ross a couple of times, is that the promoters--Bob Graham, Don
King, the Duvas, Cedric Kushner--those guys do not go into a
bank account and pay me. They do not go pay out of their own
personal bank account. Where do they get the money? That is
what the issue is about, greed, so let us deal with where they
get their money. Who is the bank in boxing? TV, so if TV is
willing to pay for championship fights because we have belts,
then pay for fights where fighters do not have belts, on their
own merit, on their own talent, on their own ability.
If the fighter is bigger than the belt, which some are and
some are not, then the payee should set a standard, to say,
hey, we do not care if Bernard got two or three belts, but we
know he is going to put on a good fight, we do not care if
Arturo Gatti's got a belt, but he is tough, he is going to
bring a crowd, we are going to get good ratings on TV. Then the
sanctioning bodies would all fall to the side.
But when you have promoters who come and say, well, look,
you are making $2 million, or you are making $3 million, and
they get $10 million from a network, there is nothing, there is
no teeth there, where a network or a promoter would say, look,
this is what I got, you negotiate from there, and to be honest,
TV in most cases, it is like, none of their business. They are
not policemen for us.
I mean, I can call up HBO and say, well, look, how much did
Don King really get for this whole particular fight, and if it
gets back to Don King, what are the repercussions for a fighter
who will not stand up like Bernard Hopkins, who is not
outspoken like Bernard Hopkins, who can deal with the
repercussions of speaking of something that I can change and be
known for that.
I do not want to just leave this game, Senator McCain, as
just being a fighter that had a belt and he was a good fighter
when he fought and that was it. When I leave this boxing
business, I want to raise enough, if there is such a word as
``good hell,'' so I would be remembered not for throwing a left
jab or a right hook, but as a guy who stood up, maybe like the
Curt Floods of later years, the guys I look up to who stood up,
Bill Russell in Boston, when he played there, the things he had
to go through there.
It is a little different, but I want to be remembered, if I
help put something in force for years and years in the future,
then I want to be remembered not just for being a great
champion. Today to be called a champion--I hate to say it,
because I worked so hard to be a champion, it is cheese. It is
cheesy. It is cheap, because the average public is confused
with who the champion is.
You have got the de la Hoyas, you have got the Lennox
Lewis, you have got Bernard Hopkins, you have got Roy Jones,
Jr., you have got only a small percentage of us, maybe 5 out of
100 percent, that is really making the dollars and the monies
that you can say you have made it, but what about the 80
percent, what about the six-round fighters?
We are here talking about the Hopkins of the world, with
millions of dollars and the sanctioning fees. Hey, the
sanctioning body is not getting money from a 10-round fighter
or a 6-round fighter or a 3-round fighter. They are getting
abused and exploited other ways, and it sad to know that when I
am in my gym, when I am in that gym this afternoon, at 5:00 I
will get there, I will see the majority of people want to
follow the dreams that Bernard Hopkins has followed, all the
way to now, and I know that the chances are, they are not going
to make it.
They are not going to make it because they are going to get
swallowed up in the system, and they are going to get exploited
all the way up to the end, when they cannot walk or talk, and
when they cannot throw a punch. Then how do they continue to go
back into society? Do you get a shovel and dig a hole and bury
yourself because you are no more a boxer?
So it is health care----
The Chairman. Pensions.
Mr. Hopkins. It is everything, pension plans, and not the
sanctioning body's pension plan, not some--we are looking out
for fighters who can donate more money to the sanctioning
bodies, we are going to buy you a 401(k). I mean, you have to
understand that this is a moneymaker for a lot of people. I do
not mind Don King or Arum or anybody making money because they
have put in their time, but I would like to see them with a
twisted nose, too.
I would like to see them every now and then say that they
actually know how this is to get up and train, you know,
holidays you cannot eat. I chose to be a professional fighter,
so when Christmas and Thanksgiving and birthdays and
anniversaries and things like that--I have got to miss out on,
because I chose to do what I do. But by the same token, if I am
the horse pulling the cart, if I am the body of the boxing,
without no fighters, there is no Don King. Without no fighters,
there is no HBO showing those fights, so we have got the power,
but we do not know it. We are the sleeping lion, the sleeping
tiger that does not know.
The majority of the fighters are--this room right now, I am
a little disappointed, because in this room right now there are
supposed to be a line of fighters behind me right now, maybe
not here to speak, but to show their presence here, and
everyone in front of me right now would be looking and saying,
well, you have got Lennox Lewis here, you have got the George
Foremans, such an American Dream guy, sitting here speaking for
the guys that might not be the next Foreman, but it is going to
come back to bite the Joneses, it is going back to bite the de
la Hoyas, because someone in their family is going to follow in
their footsteps and not be fortunate, and with some luck, and
as talented, will not get the benefits that they got, and they
are going to wish they spoke like I did.
They are going to wish I spoke up and they are going to
wish I took the chance and stuck my head out there in the
lion's den to sacrifice, whatever, sacrifice for others. They
are going to wish they did that. When somebody in their own
family, somebody in their own blood, somebody they love and
care for do not get the benefits that they got by their talents
and the good break that they got 10 years from now.
I am not talking about tomorrow, 5 years from now. They are
going to wish they did what Bernard Hopkins did, and that is
why I am so passionate about being here, and taking up other
people's time. But I just want to let you all know that this is
a sport that saved a lot of people from a lot of bad
situations, and they need to be protected, because they cannot
protect themselves because they do not know. They do not know.
The majority of us cannot read. The majority of us cannot
read properly. We do not understand what advance compares to
training expenses, and it is a whole bunch of stuff that needs
to go on. I was ignorant when I came into this sport, Senator.
I was ignorant. I did not know nothing. I just wanted to fight.
I did not care what I got paid. I made that statement.
When I look at old fight tapes of myself at the Blue
Horizon and I say, Man, did I--I do not believe I said
something like that, I'll fight him for anything. I don't care,
I just want to kick his butt. Right now, I look at that, and it
is a monumental--knowing how far I have grown, I look at that
and say, ``What a fool.'' But was I a fool? I was just
ignorant. I did not know.
Well, Mr. McCain, 80 percent of fighters do not know, and
when they do know, they are afraid to speak, because they are
dealing with people that have very deep pockets, and they are
very, very politically tied-in. In the world of boxing, we are
so small. It is so small. They cannot get rid of me because I
do not deviate from my craft. I am always going in the ring in
shape. I live right.
They would love to get these three belts from me. Do you
think they love me? Do you think they want me down here? Do you
think they want me down here, the undisputed middleweight
champion with some merit of title, down here speaking in front
of Senator McCain and making sense?
[Laughter.]
Mr. Hopkins. I mean, let us be real here. They do not want
me down here, but what can they do? Stop opportunities?
Well, I have got three belts, and I know the belts are
money. In boxing, the belts mean more to them than my life. It
means more to them than my life, so as long as I got something
that I know they want, and make money for everybody.
They talk about exploitation. I am exploiting that belt. I
am going to tease them with their belt to get the benefits that
I deserve, and that is why Bernard Hopkins will not lose no
time soon, because I have not only one--I parlayed one for so
many years, since 1995, but they messed up and gave me two
more. Oh, McCain, we have got a job to do.
[Laughter.]
Mr. Hopkins. Oh, they are in trouble, undisputed. There is
no dispute.
Thank you.
The Chairman. Thank you. Thank you very much. That is
actually a wonderful statement, and continues to motivate me to
stay at this sometimes difficult effort.
Mr. Pannella, welcome. You are the last witness. Thank you,
and then we will proceed to questions and additional comments.
STATEMENT OF PATRICK PANNELLA, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR,
MARYLAND STATE ATHLETIC COMMISSION
Mr. Pannella. Before I begin, I would like to publicly
thank Bernard Hopkins for all he has done. He has come forward
today, but today was not the first day he has come forward.
Several years ago, I met Bernard at the National Association of
Attorneys General hearings in New York City. I believe,
Bernard, when you came out of the taxicab, certain people told
you, do not go in through that door of the downtown Athletic
Club, do not go in, because it is going to hurt you
rankingswise and fightswise.
Mr. Hopkins. You remember that.
Mr. Pannella. And I remember, I did not know Bernard, but I
saw the look on his face, and he said some things, and one of
the things he said was, I am going to do it anyway, and I want
to thank you for that.
Bernard also was a guest and future speaker at the American
Association of Professional Ringside Physicians meeting in
Baltimore back in August, and you have been consistent, you
have been brave, and I commend you for that.
It is, indeed, an honor for me to come before you today as
a representative of both the Association of Boxing Commissions
and the Maryland State Athletic Commission. My name is Patrick
Pannella. I am the executive director of the Maryland State
Athletic Commission. I have proudly served in this capacity
since July of 1995. The Maryland State Athletic Commission is a
unit within the Division of Occupational and Professional
Licensing in the Maryland Department of Labor, Licensing and
Regulation.
Since that time, I have been involved in the regulation of
over 700 bouts which have taken place in the State of Maryland.
With a few exceptions, these bouts have not been of the
championship variety but, rather, encompassed the undercard
type of bouts, which basically comprise the majority of the
more than 800 professional boxing shows that were held in the
United States last year.
Most of the boxers that compete in the State of Maryland
are individuals who are on their way up the boxing ladder
seeking to gain wins and become ranked by one or more of
boxing's numerous sanctioning organizations, or alphabets, as
Bert would say, or opponents who are journeyman boxers earning
purse monies amounting to somewhere between $100 and $200 a
round.
Just like the few athletes who compete for large sums of
money in televised championship bouts, these boxers also come
under the jurisdiction of Federal boxing laws aimed at
providing minimal safety measures protecting the boxer from
coercive and unfair business practices and lending integrity to
a sport historically fraught with inequity, corruption, and
injustice.
Since this Committee held public hearings in regard to the
Professional Boxing Safety Act of 1996, I have been fortunate
to have attended nearly every public boxing hearing held by
your distinguished body. When Congress had difficulty locating
an active professional boxer to testify, and Bernard, that did
happen back in 1995, in support of the Professional Boxing
Safety Act, I accompanied former Maryland middleweight boxer
Alfonso Daniels as he spoke before this Committee.
I remember discussions in boxing circles that boxers were
apparently worried that testifying in support of a Federal
boxing bill would somehow hurt their chances to obtain a
championship fight opportunity, or to be marketable. I recall
Mr. Daniels telling me that it did not matter to him how boxing
perceived his coming forward to testify, as he would do what he
thought was right and just.
The brave efforts of Mr. Daniels, Bernard Hopkins, and
other boxers who have followed them to support the Federal
boxing laws before this Committee have not been in vain.
Positive changes to the sport have been made. A key ingredient
of the Professional Boxing Safety Act was requiring all boxers
to obtain and carry a professional boxer's Federal
identification card. In my opinion, this card has literally
saved lives.
Shortly before the Professional Boxing Safety Act was
signed into law, a boxer from another State appeared in
Maryland with false identification. We were fortunate to catch
him and to prevent him from boxing. It turned out that the
boxer had a record of some 11 or 12 losses, all via knock-out,
and no wins. In addition, he had been knocked out the night
before he attempted to compete in our State.
On more than one occasion, I have joined a ringside
physician in spending the night at Maryland's shock trauma
center in Baltimore, waiting to find out the status of an
injured boxer. It is a scenario that I did not wish to repeat.
The professional boxer's Federal identification card
dramatically limited the opportunities for boxers to compete
using a fake name, and to place themselves in physical danger.
The Maryland State Athletic Commission is a member of the
ABC, the Association of Boxing Commissions, and our commission
members and staff have remained actively involved in this
organization over the past 7 years. The ABC serves as a
valuable communications link for its member State and tribal
boxing commissions. ABC members disseminate valuable
information to each other on a consistent basis. Such
information would include information pertaining to a boxer's
boxing record, boxing history, boxing ability, and suspension
status.
At the recommendation of Tim Lueckenhoff, president of the
ABC, the ABC recently created a training seminar to be attended
by all referees and judges who work for its member boxing
commissions. This was, I believe, a very good idea to conduct
such training sessions. My sincere hope is that the ABC or the
United States Congress will be able to take a good idea one
step further to ensure that all officials who work championship
boxing bouts are competent and fair. I will refer to testimony
which Mr. Lueckenhoff provided to this Committee in testimony
given last year.
Based upon certain prescribed criteria, the respective
boxing commissions would submit to the ABC or a Federal boxing
administration a list of names of those judges and referees
deemed to be worthy of officiating at a championship bout, from
which a pool of such qualified judges and referees may be
comprised. As a prerequisite to being placed on such a list,
all judges and referees will be required to participate in
mandatory training seminars as I described earlier. These
officials would be tested by the ABC or by a Federal Boxing
Administration to ensure that the official possesses the
requisite skills necessary to effectively perform.
The boxing commission where the championship bout is to
take place would then select from this pool of officials
without any interference from a sanctioning organization or
anyone else the judges and referees who would officiate the
championship bout.
Mr. Lueckenhoff, who unfortunately is unable to be here
today, is already on record with this Committee as supporting
the creation of a United States Boxing Administration, provided
that boxing commissions are able to maintain their autonomy.
There is certainly a need to ensure that at least minimal
medical and safety standards are in place for all professional
boxing bouts, with individual boxing commissions being
permitted to maintain higher regulatory requirements as they so
choose.
Patently, in the blatant absence of any league, body or
organization, there is a need for effective and uniform
regulation and enforcement of the sport of professional boxing.
Presently, the work of the ABC is carried out by a network of a
relatively few number of volunteers, without any funding,
coupled with the lack of enforcement of Federal boxing laws by
the United States Attorneys Offices and the chief law
enforcement offices of the various States, the ABC is
unfortunately unable to have the type of impact on the sport of
boxing that it desires. By working together, and benefitting
from the resources each provides, the ABC and the United States
Boxing Administration dually can bring uniformity, equity, and
safety to the sport we all enjoy.
Thank you for your time.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Pannella follows:]
Prepared Statement of Patrick Pannella, Executive Director,
Maryland State Athletic Commission
It is indeed an honor for me to come before you today as a
representative of both the Association of Boxing Commissions (ABC) and
the Maryland State Athletic Commission. My name is Patrick Pannella. I
am the Executive Director of the Maryland State Athletic Commission. I
have proudly served in this capacity since July of 1995. The Maryland
State Athletic Commission is a unit within the Division of Occupational
and Professional Licensing in the Maryland Department of Labor,
Licensing and Regulation (DLLR). Since that time, I have been involved
in the regulation of over 700 bouts which have taken place in the State
of Maryland. With a few exceptions these bouts have not been of the
championship variety, but rather encompass the undercard or ``club
level'' type of bouts which basically comprise the majority of the more
than 800 professional boxing shows that were held in the United States
last year.
Most of the boxers who compete in the State of Maryland are
individuals who are on their way up the boxing ladder, seeking to gain
wins and become ranked by one or more of boxing's numerous sanctioning
organizations, or credible opponents who are journeyman boxers earning
purse monies amounting to somewhere between one hundred and two hundred
dollars a round. Just like the few athletes who compete for large sums
of money in televised championship bouts, these boxers also come under
the jurisdiction of federal boxing laws aimed at providing minimal
safety measures, protecting the boxer from coercive and unfair business
practices, and lending integrity to a sport historically fraught with
inequity, corruption and injustice.
Since this Committee held public hearings in regard to the
Professional Boxing Safety Act of 1996, I have been fortunate to attend
nearly every public boxing hearing held by your distinguished body.
When the United States Congress had difficulty in locating an active
professional boxer to testify in support of the Professional Boxing
Safety Act, I accompanied former Maryland middleweight boxer Alfonso
Daniels as he spoke before this Committee. I remember discussions in
boxing circles that boxers were apparently worried that testifying in
support of a federal boxing bill would somehow hurt their chances to
attain a championship fight opportunity or to be marketable. I recall
Mr. Daniels telling me that it did not matter to him how boxing
perceived his coming forward to testify, as he would do what he thought
what was right and just.
The brave efforts of Mr. Daniels and the other boxers who have
followed him to support the federal boxing laws before this Committee
have not been in vain. Positive changes to the sport have been made. A
key ingredient of the Professional Boxing Safety Act was requiring all
boxers to obtain and to carry a professional boxer's federal
identification card. In my opinion, this card has literally saved
lives. Shortly before the Professional Boxing Safety Act was signed
into law, a boxer from another state appeared in Maryland with false
identification. We were fortunate to catch him, and to prevent him from
boxing. It turned out that the boxer had a record of some eleven or
twelve losses, all via knockout, and no wins. In addition, he had been
knocked out the night before he attempted to compete in Maryland. On
more than one occasion, I have joined a ringside physician in spending
the night at Maryland's Shock Trauma Center in Baltimore, waiting to
find out the status of an injured boxer. It is a scenario that I do not
wish to repeat. The professional boxer's federal identification card
has dramatically limited the opportunities for boxers to compete using
a fake name and to place themselves in physical danger.
The Maryland State Athletic Commission is a member of the
Association of Boxing Commissions (ABC), and our Commission members and
staff have remained actively involved in this organization over these
past seven years. The ABC serves as a valuable communications link for
its member state and tribal boxing commissions. ABC members disseminate
valuable information to each other on a consistent basis; such
information would include information pertaining to a boxer's boxing
record, boxing history, boxing ability and suspension status. At the
recommendation of Tim Lueckenhoff, President of the ABC, the ABC
recently created a training seminar to be attended by all referees and
judges who work for its member boxing commissions. This was, I believe,
a very good idea to conduct such training sessions.
My sincere hope is that the ABC or United States Congress will be
able to take a good idea one step further. To ensure that all officials
who work championship boxing bouts are competent and fair, I will refer
to testimony which Mr. Lueckenhoff provided to this Committee in
testimony given last year. Based upon certain prescribed criteria, the
respective boxing commissions would submit to the ABC or a federal
boxing administration a list of names of those judges and referees
deemed to be worthy of officiating at a championship bout from which a
``pool'' of such qualified judges and referees may be comprised. As a
prerequisite to being placed on such a list, all judges and referees
would be required to participate in mandatory training seminars as I
described earlier. These officials would be tested by the ABC or a
federal boxing administration to ensure that the official possesses the
requisite skills necessary to effectively perform. The boxing
commission where the championship bout is to take place would then
select from this ``pool'' of officials, without any interference from a
sanctioning organization or anyone else, the judges and referees who
would officiate the championship bout.
Mr. Lueckenhoff who, unfortunately, is unable to be here today, is
already on record with this Committee as supporting the creation of a
United States Boxing Administration provided that boxing commissions
are able to maintain their autonomy. There is certainly a need to
ensure that at least minimum medical and safety standards are in place
for all professional boxing bouts, with individual boxing commissions
being permitted to maintain higher regulatory requirements as they so
choose.
Patently, in the blatant absence of any league, body or
organization, there is a need for effective and uniform regulation and
enforcement of the sport of professional boxing. Presently, the work of
the ABC is carried out by a network of a relatively few number of
volunteers. Without any funding, coupled with the lack of enforcement
of federal boxing laws by the United States Attorney's Offices and the
chief law enforcement offices of the various states, the ABC is
unfortunately unable to have the type of impact on the sport of boxing
that it desires. By working together, and benefitting from the
resources each provides, the ABC and the United States Boxing
Administration dually can bring uniformity, equity and safety to the
sport we all enjoy. Thank you for your time.
The Chairman. Well, thank you, Mr. Pannella.
Bert, the Lennox Lewis-Tyson fight was not sanctioned by
the Nevada Boxing Commission, so they shopped around and ended
up in Tennessee.
Mr. Sugar. In fact, I think every sandspit in the Caribbean
wanted in on that.
The Chairman. And remarkably, now they are talking about a
rematch rather than Mr. Lewis fighting far more qualified
contenders. What is that all about?
Mr. Sugar. Well, two things, number one of which, it is an
easier payday for Mr. Lewis, who I am sure, that is about the
only reason he will stay around before he retires.
They talked about Klitschko again. I do not know which
Klitschko is which Klitschko. I even have a question as to
whether there are two of them. I have never seen them together.
It looks like the same guy, but Lennox Lewis, who had flirted
with the idea of retiring, sees another easy payday.
The Chairman. There is nothing that would motivate Mr.
Lewis to fight what everyone views as the number 1 and number 2
challenger?
Mr. Sugar. The problem is, Senator, money. Boxing, probably
not unlike anything else in life, is where money talks and BS
walks, and these sanctioning bodies which----
The Chairman. They will move Tyson up to number 1.
Mr. Sugar. Oh, he will rise quicker than Lazarus from the
dead if there's money is in it. These alphabet soup groups,
which I question whether they even know the concept of alphabet
soup, if they look down in their bowl, know the meaning of
dollar signs when they look down, and with Tyson still being a
viable draw, if not a viable contender. How many people do you
think back last June actually tuned in the Tyson-Lewis fight to
watch Lennox Lewis, as opposed to Mike Tyson? Therein lies the
economies of boxing.
The Chairman. Mr. Hauser, can you comment on that? And in a
perfect world, how would you force a fight between Bernard
Hopkins and Roy Jones, Jr. and/or Lennox Lewis and one of the
Russian brothers?
Mr. Hauser. You cannot force a fight between two people
unless they both want to fight, and in the case of Bernard
Hopkins versus Roy Jones, over the years, either one or both of
them has not wanted to fight, or the dollars have not been
right for them, and a fighter, if he is the champion, there is
supposed to be a mechanism in place where he fights the
mandatory challenger. The problem is that the system is so
corrupt that the ratings are jiggered, and again, I come back
to the fact that nobody is enforcing the law.
Why hasn't a single Government entity, State or Federal,
brought a lawsuit against any of these sanctioning
organizations for phony filings and phony ratings?
I remember several years ago you sent a letter to Robert
Pitofsky when he was chairman of the Federal Trade Commission
asking the FTC to look into it, and nothing came of that. If
you want to clean up boxing, you can start by having the
Justice Department bring a civil antitrust lawsuit for
conspiracy and restraint of trade under section 2 of the
Sherman Antitrust Act. A civil antitrust lawsuit brought by the
Government is heard by a Federal judge. There is no jury. The
judge in the case has powers to grant equitable relief. That is
a start.
If you bring one criminal prosecution against a sanctioning
body for phony ratings, I suspect that the other ratings will
get cleaned up in a hurry, because they do not want to be
criminally prosecuted, and in terms of the judgment against the
WBC by Rocchigiani you can attach the sanctioning fees for any
WBC fight in the United States, and the judgment starts to get
filled then, but there is no will that I have seen on behalf of
the Federal Government to enforce the laws that Congress has
passed, and the State athletic commissions certainly are not
going to do it, because some of them do not know what is going
on, some of them are corrupt, and all of them are afraid that
if they do the right thing, big fights will simply go some
place else.
A State knows that if they seek to enjoin the payment of
sanctioning fees, then the big fights just will not come to
that State. It has to be done on a national level across the
board so there is no sanctuary, and you saw the sanctuary at
work with Tyson/Lewis. Nevada said no, and you had States
lining up to put the fight on, and they will do it again.
The Chairman. Mr. Pannella, Mr. Hauser raises the point
that there is another fight that took place that I am
incredibly embarrassed about where Cesar Chavez was prevented
from fighting in Nevada, so they shopped around and he fought
Kostya Tszyu in Phoenix, Arizona and was beaten insensible by
Mr. Tszyu, as everybody knew he would be, and yet the Arizona
Boxing Commission, my own State, sanctioned the fight after
Nevada had not. What do you do about that besides passing a
Federal law, Mr. Pannella?
Mr. Pannella. Well, Senator McCain, first of all, I think
it was inappropriate for the Arizona Boxing Commission to not
follow the lead and recommendation of Nevada. In that case and
in other cases, there have been State commissions that have not
followed the lead of other States.
The Chairman. So what do we do?
Mr. Pannella. The United States Boxing Administration is
what we have to do. We have no enforcement authority as an ABC
body, and Mr. Hauser, we have no enforcement authority. We need
it.
Mr. Hauser. And no budget, really.
Mr. Pannella. If you have problems with some State
commissions, I respect that, but we have no enforcement
authority. The United States Boxing Administration will enable
us to actually force those commissions that are not abiding, as
well as to ensure the minimum standards that are necessary for
the sport. Many State commissions in my opinion, and tribal
commissions, do have high standards, but it is a travesty, and
it is embarrassing, as far as I am personally concerned, that
that happened.
The Chairman. Thank you. Mr. Hauser, if you could get me
some additional information on the New York State Athletic
Commission, I would very much appreciate it. I am sure you have
written about it.
Mr. Hauser. Senator, I have brought with me a book which
has six or seven columns on the New York State Athletic
Commission, and I will be happy to give it to you at the close
of this hearing.
The Chairman. I am joined by my friend and fellow boxing
advocate, Senator Dorgan of the State of North Dakota which,
its only claim to fame is that Virgil Hill is from there. Other
than that, I know of no redeeming qualities.
[Laughter.]
Mr. Sugar. And here I thought their claim to fame was that
Lawrence Welk was from there.
The Chairman. But I want to thank Senator Dorgan for all
that he has done in helping on this issue, and his commitment,
and I just had a couple more questions, and please chime in,
Mr. Hopkins. I know you want to speak, but when you do, I would
like for you to also, besides your comment, is tell us why you
think there has never been a fight between you and Roy Jones,
Jr.
Mr. Hopkins. That would be the quickest thing I have
answered all day. He is scared.
[Laughter.]
Mr. Hopkins. He is scared. I mean, yes, money plays a role.
Roy knows he is going to have to fight Bernard Hopkins. We are
in two different weight classes. I am a middleweight, and
always been since 1988-1989. I have got the Marvin Hagler
mentality. I never blow up, never go down.
Roy is a light heavyweight, 160, a light heavyweight. You
are talking a lot of pounds. You are talking about health and
safety. You are fighting a good big man who would beat a good
little man any day, and when you are talking two weight classes
apart--you know, Roy is not going to come down to 160, and I
would not do that. It would not be fair. Roy does not want to
come down to 68 or 67. He wants to fight probably, last time I
heard it was 71, 72.
Then it is the dollars. Roy wants 80/20, then he wants 60/
40, then he might not want the gloves, the gloves might not be
his, he might want to wear Reds, I might want to wear Grant. He
might want to fight here, I might want to fight there.
It is a whole bunch of things, and it is egos on both
sides. The fight will happen as long as he does not lose to a
guy who is not a heavyweight, because then people will say,
well, he should not have fought John Ruiz. As long as Bernard
Hopkins does not lose March 29, that rivalry is building up. I
cannot walk anywhere in any city without anybody saying, why
won't Roy fight you, why don't you all do 50-50. Roy thinks
more of me. He goes to make a rap song. I thank him for the
promotion he gives me, but it will happen as long as we do what
we have got to do.
But I want to add one little quick thing. You say, what can
we do about a fighter, or a situation where you run from one
State to another. Get one commission. I mean, I am going to
blow Greg Serb's horn in Pennsylvania I think he is doing a
great job. You heard of Greg Serb?
The Chairman. A fine man, yes.
Mr. Hopkins. He working in Harrisburg. He has been doing
great. I have seen him turn down fights with guys with 15 and
30, fighting an undefeated fighter.
One commission, which means that--and you know what it
means. But Arizona will not be able to do what they did on a
high-level marquee fight or a low-level fight, because you
cannot run from New York to Philadelphia and get different
results. The unity is not there. You get one person--I do not
know whether it is going to be one person with all this power,
whether it is going to be a panel of three or a panel of 10, or
a panel of five, and you have one commission that commissions
every State that deals with boxing in every country, or every
city, or every commission. Now, if something happens, he cannot
run here, the promoter cannot run there, the fighter cannot
run--it works both ends. One commission. To me, that is easy.
The Chairman. I got you. Thank you.
Mr. Greenburg, in a piece written by Mr. Hauser in
secondsout.com entitled, The State of Boxing, Mr. Hauser
concludes that, quote, Ross Greenburg, Jay Larkins, and Bob
Yalin each acknowledged that their fiduciary duty to their
respective networks far outweighs any fiduciary duty that might
exist with regard to the good of boxing, and that belief
extends to calls that the networks help clean up boxing. Would
you like to respond?
And let me give you one other quote. Mr. Hauser also quotes
you as saying, quote, our job as network executives is to put
together the best fights, and the fights that the public wants.
There is no reason for us to obsess over the sanctioning bodies
and State athletic commissions. Please respond.
Mr. Greenburg. On both of those, first of all, boxing is
part of our bloodstream at HBO. I have been there 25 years. It
is ingrained in all of us to protect the health, safety, and
the dominance of the sport on the American landscape, and so
not only have I never said that to Tom Hauser, but I would
violently disagree that if either of those other two gentlemen
believe that, then they are completely wrong.
On the second quote, I would just say that sanctioning
organizations do exist. We actually, on our broadcast, never
acknowledge the WBA, the WBC, or the IBF. We have determined
that the fighters and promoters can decide whether they think
that the legitimate mandatory is indeed legitimate. If they
want to throw away a belt, if they decide that they do not want
to be the WBC champion because that organization is forcing
them to fight an inferior fighter, even though he is number
one, we willingly pay the same profits for Bernard Hopkins to
defend his people's undisputed middleweight championship of the
world.
Even if he throws away all three belts, in our mind he is
still the undisputed middleweight champion of the world, so in
our minds. I agree wholeheartedly with not only Bernard but
everyone else on this panel that we do need a Federal
commission to step in and regulate everyone so that if the
sanctioning organizations from overseas are doing wrong by our
sport, that they can be punished, that if promoters are doing
wrong by our sport, they can be punished, if a manager is doing
wrong by his fighter, he should be punished.
So we believe in the health and well-being of this sport
now and forever. We have too much invested in it, not only
financially, but emotionally. My job hinges on the success and
the dominance of this sport across America. I have seen it
crater over the last 20 years, when we were doing Hearns/
Leonard in 1981, to now where the state of boxing is today. We
need superstars like Bernard Hopkins. We want him outspoken.
We have broadcasters on our network that speak to the ills
of the sport every single time we do a broadcast, and we
receive a lot of condemnation from not only promoters, but
managers and commissions and everyone else, because we are so
outspoken to try to get to this sport and clean it up. That is
HBO's version of boxing.
The Chairman. Bert, is the Mickey Ward/Arturo Gatti, which
was a nontitle fight an anomaly, or do you have to have a title
associated with it, and second of all, is boxing getting worse?
Mr. Sugar. I do not know the answer to the second question,
unfortunately. Boxing is getting worse only because I am
getting older and everything was better when I was a kid, but I
think there are many good things about boxing today, and they
are savable and salvageable by something good happening.
Mickey Ward and Arturo Gatti, yes, was a unique fight in
many ways. It was a throwback fight to yesteryear in several
ways--an Italian versus an Irishman. There is a man up in
Washington in an old-age home named Jimmy McLarnin, who was a
welterweight titlist back in the 1930s. He is 96. He fought
against, as an Irishman, Tony Canzoneri, an Italian, and they
both fought against Barney Ross, a Jewish fighter, and it was a
tripartite.
Ward and Gatti was a throwback fight in our generation, so
yes, it does not need to be, by the bye, a championship fight.
That is the icing on the dessert, a championship, because then
somebody in East Overshoe will say, ``Mabel, I cannot come to
dinner or go to bed now because they have got a championship
fight on. I do not know who in the hell is fighting, but it is
a championship fight.''
Ward/Gatti stood on its own. It depends, as Ross said, in
putting together the best fights. Yes, because they are at the
highest level, championship fights are most times the best
fights. But you had another nontitle fight recently, Marco
Antonio Barrera, who threw away his title, said I do not want
to be champion, I am content being the best, and he fights Eric
Morales, and I do not know one person who did not tune that in
because it was not, quote-unquote, for a championship.
The Chairman. Thank you.
Senator Dorgan.
STATEMENT OF HON. BYRON L. DORGAN,
U.S. SENATOR FROM NORTH DAKOTA
Senator Dorgan. Thank you Mr. Chairman. I was at an Energy
Committee and Judiciary Committee hearing prior to this, so I
unable to be here to listen to the testimony. Incidentally,
since this is not televised live, I will not correct your
limited knowledge of North Dakota.
[Laughter.]
Senator Dorgan. I might be required to do so if more people
had heard it, but I will defer at the moment.
Mr. Sugar, your knowledge from Lawrence Welk to boxing is
expansive----
Mr. Sugar. And Angie Dickinson. Angie Dickinson, from North
Dakota.
Senator Dorgan. Angie Dickinson is from Kulm, North Dakota.
Mr. Sugar. And Roger Maris. I mean, we can keep going.
[Laughter.]
Senator Dorgan. All of that is true, of course.
Let me ask a couple of questions. I was at a hearing some
years ago when Sammy ``the Bull'' Gravano testified under armed
guard, under protection. He was then in the witness protection
program. They brought him in, with a lot of security around
this building that day, and he said----
The Chairman. He has since done very well out in Arizona.
[Laughter.]
Mr. Sugar. You are claiming him like he is claiming
Lawrence Welk?
[Laughter.]
Senator Dorgan. He said that at one point, they apparently
had some interest in a European heavyweight. They wanted to
line him up to fight Reynaldo Snipes, but they needed Reynaldo
to get a little better ranking, because they were going to have
Reynaldo Snipes take a dive, and since their guy was going to
win, they wanted to fight against a high-ranked fighter.
So he said that John Gotti sent him to Las Vegas to meet
with one of the sanctioning body folks. He told us who it was,
and he told us what it cost to move Reynaldo Snipes, I think it
was from rank number 9 to number 7. It was going to be $10,000,
and he explained to the people, he said, well, I am here--you
know, this is John Gotti's request. Well, he said, then we do
it for $5,000.
He told us this story, I thought to myself, can the system
be that corrupt? Give me your impression. Does that go on
today? Is there somebody flying around the country today making
a payment to someone in one of the sanctioning bodies to get
someone ranked two or three steps higher?
Mr. Sugar. I think if you read the transcript of the Bobby
Lee case in the IBF, it happens today, yes. I mean, they do not
have to infer, or refer either way to John Gotti's name. They
just have to show up with dead presidents in their hands. You
can say, Benjamin Franklin, U.S. Grant. It does not have to be
John Gotti.
And so it has happened, and the Bobby Lee IBF case was
somehow, someway, somewhere predicated on that same principle,
Senator.
Senator Dorgan. Mr. Greenburg, if that is true, if that
happens today, and if the rankings really are not on the level,
they can be bought in certain circumstances, why aren't the two
or three or four largest beneficiaries from a revenue
standpoint of these either carnivals or athletic events,
depending upon which one you are seeing, including the networks
and HBO, why are they not pushing very, very hard to say, look,
let us clean this up, we put the prestige and the energy of our
organization behind it?
Both the chairman and I have been at this a long while. I
first introduced with Pat Williams, and now the Governor of New
Mexico, Bill Richardson and others in the House, and Senator
McCain then, and we have introduced legislation 15, 20 years
ago. I have never had someone from an organization like yours
communicate with me to say, you really need to do this, we
really support this. Why is there no energy in that direction?
Mr. Greenburg. Well, first of all, I am here.
Senator Dorgan. Okay. And I appreciate that.
Mr. Greenburg. I am here for that very reason. I believe in
this. Senator McCain and I have known each other quite a while,
and we have worked together. He knows he has my support, and I
have been down to meet with the Senator, and Senator Reid, and
Senator Ensign, and we have tried as best we can, even though
we are the bank, and a powerful one at that, to try to help
legislate some policy, and this policy would legislate boxing
in a good way to try to clean up the sport.
I think the IBF situation is interesting, because we have
absolutely no involvement with any of these commissions, and
these sanctioning organizations, to know what is going on
behind the scenes between the promoters and the sanctioning
organizations. But I would venture to say that that one IBF
case, which was a while ago, has really stopped a lot of the
corruption that we are speaking about now, and if you are a
promoter now, you had better have second thoughts of trying to
bribe sanctioning organizations for upticking those rankings.
I think that that sent a very serious message, and it
speaks to what Tom Hauser keeps saying, which is, if we keep
sending that kind of message, you bet it is going to clean it
up, and that is why I am here, and I am committed to this
legislation. I think it will do a lot to benefit this sport. We
are going to stay involved.
I am here now. If you guys want to do this again in a
month, I will be back, and I will continue to fight for this
because we believe in it at HBO, so I cannot speak for other
networks. I cannot speak for anyone in my industry, but here is
one big pocketbook that is ready to stand up and speak out the
way Bernard Hopkins has spoken out.
Senator Dorgan. Mr. Hauser, did you want to comment?
Mr. Hauser. First, I do not think the IBF prosecution made
that big a difference, because you see the WBA doing the same
thing again with its rankings. We do not have tapes of money
being handed to the people who run the WBA. We do know that
Shane Mosley, who is one of the best fighters in the world in
any weight class, was not ranked in any weight division by the
WBA for several months. There is no logical reason for that.
Also, I want to get back to one thing Mr. Greenburg said
earlier regarding the statements from the article that Senator
McCain quoted, and that is, I do believe that is an accurate
statement of the views that Mr. Greenburg expressed to me, and
this is the first time that Mr. Greenburg or anybody else at
HBO has questioned its accuracy to me, and Mr. Greenburg just
said--and I believe you will agree I am quoting you
accurately--we are the bank, and a powerful one at that.
And with that in mind, I think one very constructive step
would be for HBO to make public the license fees that it pays
for fights. That is something that Major League Baseball does,
the National Football League does. We know what the network
pays for the rights for all the other sports, whether it is
baseball, football, basketball, golf, and if the fighters and
their camps know what the license fees are, the same way the
Major League Baseball Players Association bases its
negotiations in large part on the TV deals, if the fighters and
their camps know what the license fees are, then they are
better able to gauge whether they are being treated fairly.
And to take it even one step further, I would like to see
HBO, Showtime, ESPN, all the TV networks, follow the trail of
the money to see how much money from a particular fight winds
up in the fighter's bank account. You have these horrible cases
of exploitation going back to Tim Witherspoon, where a 1.6-
million-dollar license fee was paid for Witherspoon's services
to fight Frank Bruno, and $92,000 of that went to Witherspoon,
and more recently the horrible exploitation of Manny Pacquaio,
who came from the Philippines and was betrayed by his manager.
So if you follow the flow of the money, you will make it a lot
easier for fighters to have honest managers to see that their
fighters are being fairly treated, and that is something that
HBO and all the other networks can do.
Senator Dorgan. I want to ask Mr. Hopkins a question.
Mr. Sugar, you wanted to comment on that?
The Chairman. Mr. Greenburg, are you willing to do that?
Mr. Greenburg. What, answer that?
The Chairman. Give the licensing fees.
Mr. Greenburg. That is a tough call. I mean, in our
multifight agreements with fighters we have a number down on
that paper, and the fighter himself, if Bernard, Ray Jones, or
Lennox Lewis, they put their signature on the contract, so in
that regard, a multifight contract guarantees that the fighter
understands what the television monies are.
We do not know what the site monies are. We do not know
what the sponsorship monies are, so it is hard for us to really
gauge how much that fighter knows, but in the context of our
multifights, they know that number.
As it pertains to nonmultifight fights, it would be very
difficult, I think, if a Federal governing organization decided
that they wanted to, like the NFL or the NHL or the NBA,
disclose what the television revenue is, then we probably would
be amenable to that, but just like the broadcasters, who do
not--and my recollection is that they pool all the monies from
all of those networks, at least in the NFL, and then disclose
what that number is for the collective bargaining between the
NFLPA and the NFL, the league itself, in terms of how much
revenue the players will then get for themselves, but we would
be surely amenable to that lump sum, so that fighters knew.
I really cannot tell you down the road what Federal
legislation will govern, but we will be right there, following
the rules and regulations set down by that body.
Mr. Hauser. We read regularly in the paper that ABC/ESPN
has paid X amount of money for NFL rights.
Mr. Sugar. I have a problem with all of this. What does
this do to help boxing, rather than a given fighter? We have
more important problems than people just basically pulling the
curtain back to see what is behind it. It satisfies the press.
We love to write about this.
Senator Dorgan. The question is exploitation.
Mr. Sugar. Yes. That is the flow going the other way.
Mr. Hauser. If Bernard Hopkins knows.
Mr. Sugar. I know about that, but it is always on the
Nevada Athletic Commission's amount, not TV's, but total.
Mr. Hopkins. Bert Sugar is very knowledgeable, but it is
absolutely incorrect, because as Mr. Ross Greenburg here will
bear witness to, is that I remember a situation a year ago,
right before the Trinidad fight, where Don King, Ross
Greenburg, and myself were down in New York, in HBO's building,
and I wanted to know because I happen to be more advanced than
most of us that do not know how to answer that.
What is the license fee that HBO--because I am not a signed
HBO exclusive fighter. I am, more or less, if Showtime were to
offer something, fine. If HBO were to offer something, fine,
and Don went crazy when my attorney, Arnold Joseph and I,
asked, you want us to fight, say Roy, you want us to fight, say
Trinidad again, or de la Hoya, what is the license fee that HBO
is paying DK, Don King Productions so I can be able to
negotiate in the light and not the dark.
I have to, and most fighters have to have their own entity,
their own manager, and hopefully that manager is not with a
promoter, the consultant or anyone, to negotiate from a
promoter who is supposed to negotiate from the networks for the
fighter, so if the fighter does not have his own group of
people that are honest to negotiate his worth, then the
promoter would dictate that he only got but $2 million when he
got 8.
I mentioned Tim Witherspoon, okay. Now, TV, if TV makes it
clear, if it is regulation makes it clear, rules that make it
law like baseball, football, hockey, and any other sport, or
golf, that whatever the network is paying, ABC, HBO, Showtime,
then I can be able to deal in good faith across the board,
knowing that HBO gave Don $15 million or $20 million, or $30
million for a four-fight package for Bernard Hopkins' services.
Now I can look at that and say, this is what I am willing to do
this for. It is not there, Mr. McCain. You are negotiating with
a hand that is not even flipped over.
The Chairman. You never got the information you asked for?
Mr. Hopkins. Absolutely not.
Mr. Greenburg. With me?
Mr. Hopkins. No, Don went crazy, because I wanted to know
what they were paying Don while Don was there, not behind his
back on the phone. I wanted to know, and HBO, all due respect
in defense of them, Don is barking, maybe threatening to sue or
whatever, that you are interfering with my fighter, because I
am doing his business, I have exclusive rights to negotiate, so
HBO is hog-tied. They are like, if we tell what it is, then we
might have a problem, we might have this, and they have to make
sure with the promoter--they do not have a relationship with
the fighters, the majority of them.
I was reading in the USAToday paper today, I am pretty sure
once I make this statement somebody is going to run out and see
if it is in there. Not that my credibility is tarnished, but I
just want to let you know that Jay Larkins from Showtime did
something with a lot of heat and press--to show you how much
power TV has, they are the bank, they are the vault, they
pulled the fight off--and Tom Hauser can bear witness to this.
Jay Larkins for Showtime, the honcho over there who calls the
shots, he pulled the fight that was so mismatched. That is the
power that TV has.
They told Art Poluto, the promoter of the fighter that was
the upcoming star, whatever, fighting a guy that maybe had 30
or 20-something losses--in today's paper today--he snatched the
fight. He said, I will not do this fight, I will not pay for
this fight. That is the power that the networks have.
Like I said, again, Don King, Bob Arum, the Duvas, none of
the big-time promoters do not go to their own bank account and
pay de la Hoya $10 million out of Bob Arum's bank account. They
go to TV and negotiate from TV, so who has the power, the
promoter, or TV? The bank. All of this is about money, greed,
corruption, exploitation, but it boils down to one thing, the
Benjamins. So who has the Benjamins? TV.
It is no more back in the day where you get the money from
the gate. It is no more in the 1930s or the 1940s, Mr. McCain,
when you based and predicate everything on how many people show
up, we hope it does not rain, we hope we do not have a
snowstorm, nobody is going to come out and watch it. When TV
became involved in boxing, it took it to another level.
The Sammy the Bulls, the John Gottis, all kinds of
characters in this business, so maybe the John Gottis and the
Sammy the Bulls are not around now, but are replaced. It is
just modernized and more dressed up to be the same thing. If it
is a cat, smells like a cat, and growls like a cat, that is
what it is. It is the same thing.
Senator Dorgan. Mr. Chairman, I have only asked a few
questions so far, and I am doing pretty well, but I am here
actually in shape to go to 12 rounds here in these questions.
If I might ask one more question, I do want to ask you a
question, Mr. Hopkins. Senator McCain and I work in a business
where we actually are practiced and professional at avoiding a
direct question we do not want to answer. We both know how to
do that and do it--well, Senator McCain perhaps less well than
I, but I assure you, it is a skill that allows you to get to
this position that you must possess.
Mr. Hopkins. Well, I have been in court a couple of times.
I have learned that know that, too.
[Laughter.]
Senator Dorgan. You are a wonderful boxer, one of the best
in the world. I have watched you box, and you are incredible.
Senator McCain asked you a direct question, and he did not
touch you with it because he was asking about Roy Jones, and
you said Roy Jones was scared of you. Of course, we know that
is not the case. You knew that was not the case when you
answered. Tell me why----
Mr. Hopkins. I have been in a couple of courts. I know how
to answer questions.
Senator Dorgan. But we all know that is hyperbole. Tell me
why, in the current circumstances, why has a Hopkins-Jones
fight not happened? One would expect it to have happened. You
both are at the top of the boxing world.
Mr. Hopkins. We are both in our 30s.
Senator Dorgan. He is not afraid of you, you are not afraid
of him. Obviously, you would both like to see the contest. Why
has it not happened?
Mr. Hopkins. One reason is money. The middleweight
tournament was based and predicated--Ross can speak if he wants
to about this, and this was all about winning the tournament.
The wrong guy won the tournament, sir. Trinidad did not win the
tournament. Bernard messed up an economy that was so built up
on Trinidad and Roy, and that was my calling. I was supposed to
have been executed that night, but the wrong guy won. If
Trinidad would have won--he had the Latin backing--it would
have been great. Roy Jones, they were building up they were
talking about it.
With all due respect, you have got two big writers here,
they will tell you, they were talking about Roy and Trinidad
before they even fought. The wrong guy won, first of all.
Second, Roy Jones is finding out that he is not the only
smart businessman in boxing. Bernard Hopkins also is a
businessman, a boxer second, and when Roy Jones, Jr. backed out
of his fight and went out of the tournament, he made it a
business issue to ease out of it, and some bought it and some
did not, because everybody knows that Bernard Hopkins is worthy
and paid his dues.
When Roy was feeding off the mandatory fights, people did
not--HBO will tell you, they are not proud of the ratings they
got from some of the Roy Jones fights in the last 4 or 5 years,
so I took a risk fighting Trinidad, and even the money proved
my point, proved it well.
Now Roy Jones and Hopkins, well, Roy Jones wants to take
the majority of the money because he feels he has a victory
over me in 1993 in RFK Stadium in D.C. under the Riddick Bowe
and Jessie Ferguson card. Well, he is holding that against me
to today. Roy said he has home court advantage because he has
beat me over 9 years ago, and I said Roy Jones is caught
between two sports. It is not basketball. There is no home
court advantage because you did something 9 years ago. What
have you done in the last 5 or 6 years to say that you want 80
percent or 60 percent of the money?
It is about money. It is about Roy knowing he is going to
fight a tough fight, and I am just starting to break through to
get the rewards of about my 15-year tender in this sport, and I
have a lot to prove when I fight a Roy or anybody else.
I think an Oscar de la Hoya fight--which is, 6 pounds
separate us--is bigger than a me and Roy Jones fight, and that
is my feelings on it. Roy is a guy I want to fight, but Roy is
175. He is fighting at 190, not because he has got to put on
weight. He walks around close to 190, 195. I walk around at
best 6 or 7 pounds above my weight.
Everybody credits me, my enemies in the sport credit me for
my well, well-known discipline for staying in shape, even in
between fights, so I would rather make an Oscar and a Hopkins
fight. Oscar is 154, Bernard Hopkins is 160. That is easy to
meet. It is bigger money.
You always say, you say about the Irish and the Italians,
such and such. Well, you have got Oscar de la Hoya, and you
have a Bernard Hopkins. Oscar has a Mexican following. He just
beat Fernando Vargas, and we only separate 5 or 6 pounds. Why
aren't the media beating the drums to make that happen? No,
because they want to beat the drums and say, fight Roy,
Bernard, at any expense. I am not at 175 pounds. I know my
limit. I am successful for 14 years as a middleweight. Why
would I get out of my habitat to satisfy Roy Jones, because he
is Roy Jones, and I did not beat the biggest guy in boxing,
which is Felix Trinidad, who had Roy beat in 3 years of being
pound-for-pound.
Money is the issue. Roy does not want to fight Bernard
Hopkins unless HBO or someone with some dictations to Roy to
say, you have got to fight Bernard Hopkins 50-50--I even went
as far as saying, 60-40, winner takes 60, loser takes 40, make
it interesting. We will sell more tickets.
Mr. Sugar. One quick note, because I just want to add one
little story to what Bernard said to agree with him probably
more than he agrees with me sometimes, but he said he upset the
apple cart that night in September of 2000 when he beat
Trinidad. There was a Sugar Ray Robinson trophy to be given out
to the winner of this four-champion tournament. Don King
afterwards, greeting Bernard Hopkins to the podium, said that
someone had left the building with the key in their pocket, and
they could not get the trophy, they would have it for him
Monday. It had already been inscribed with Felix Trinidad's
name on it.
Mr. Hopkins. They already had his name on it.
[Laughter.]
Senator Dorgan. Well, Mr. Chairman, this has been a most
interesting panel. I really look forward to working with you
this year and in this Congress.
The Chairman. We are going to mark up this bill at the next
markup within a few weeks, and then see if we cannot get some
reservations that people have about--the whole problem is what
degree HBO-Showtime are involved in this legislation, and we
are trying to get it resolved, and I hope we can move forward.
And Mr. Pannella, I am pleased to know that--it may not be
a unanimous opinion, but I am glad that some of the State
boxing commissioners are in favor of this. We intend the
legislation not to micromanage the State boxing commissions,
but I think you and I understand the obvious problems of not
having some kind of Federal oversight of the entire sport.
Go ahead if you want.
Mr. Pannella. Thank you, Senator McCain.
You know, I am hearing all this conversation. You talk
about the IBF and the problem many years ago with Bobby Lee. I
am thinking to myself, the individual who at one time had my
job in Virginia was the guy who actually had money in his sock
on the highway up in New York and made the deal. That was an
individual who is in a position similar to mine in another
State, and I am just thinking about that, and my attorney
always uses the word, firewall. We have got to create a
firewall between the commissions, the sanctioning bodies,
everybody. We must be above reproach, and in the Federal Boxing
Act of 1996, prior to that, we had members of commissions who
were members of sanctioning bodies. It happened all over.
It is changing. It needs to take more, and the United
States Boxing Administration will help to build that firewall.
The Chairman. Thank you.
Well, I have learned from this hearing, 1) that we need to
try to get enforcement of existing laws. It seems to me that is
a reasonable thing for citizens to expect, enforcement of
existing law, including contacting the FTC again. They have a
new commissioner, and new commissions, and maybe also perhaps
trying to light a fire under the Justice Department, because
there have been some egregious violations of the law; and
second of all, to try to get this done; and third of all, keep
the focus and attention on this issue until such time as there
is some measurable improvement.
Mr. Hopkins, you have heard me say before the reason why
Senator Dorgan and I love this sport is for a variety of
reasons, including, it provides the only opportunity for some
people to achieve great success in life, and it seems to me we
should have assured them of a level playing field, as is
generally the case in all other professional sports in America,
with the exception of the sport of boxing.
So I would be glad to hear any final comments that the
witnesses may have, beginning with you, Mr. Pannella, or did
you already just do that?
Mr. Pannella. I just want to say that the work that is
going on here, the bravery of the boxer Bernard Hopkins, and
the interest that Senator McCain and Senator Dorgan have is
very much appreciated. We have to move forward. Again, there
have been positive changes made, and the Federal boxing laws in
1996 since then have made those changes. They need to continue,
and I believe the public will be best served by the United
States Boxing Administration, as will the boxers.
Thank you.
The Chairman. Bert.
Mr. Sugar. Senator McCain, Senator Dorgan, I applaud what
you are doing. I just hope, yes, fervently, that you put teeth
in it and we go forward, because I think therein lies the whole
answer. We can have about 20 more of these panels. If we do not
get teeth in it, it ain't going to work, and I wish you
Godspeed. Let us get it done. We have got people out there who
do not take money under the table, they take it around the
table. I have even seen them take the table. We have got to
take the initiative. I leave it to you.
The Chairman. Thank you. You are always welcome here, Mr.
Sugar. We find you not only enlightening, but entertaining.
Mr. Hauser.
Mr. Hauser. I will just quote what you said, Senator, and I
believe I am quoting accurately. We should light a fire under
the Justice Department, because there have been some egregious
violations of the law.
The Chairman. Thank you. Mr. Greenburg, while you answer,
let me just say HBO and other cable service providers have been
criticized for acting like promoters. Many in the boxing
industry argue, and the witnesses have today, that HBO controls
boxing, HBO is a promoter, and thus should be regulated as
such. How do you respond to that in your final comments here?
Mr. Greenburg. Well, first of all, power does not corrupt.
People with corruption in their bloodstream corrupt. We are a
bank. We are powerful. We enjoy this sport. We live by this
sport. We like to entertain our subscribers with the sport of
boxing. That is our job. We are not just suits.
I guess many times--I heard Bernard loud and clear--we have
looked out for the betterment of boxers like Bernard our entire
business life, and will continue to do that. As we look ahead
into the future, we believe at HBO, like both of you Senators,
that this kind of Federal regulation can work and clean up the
sport not only for the fighters, but for all the managers and
promoters and sanctioning organizations, and all the other
bodies out there that contribute, casinos and the like, to this
sport's betterment.
We are not promoters. We televise the sport of boxing. We
enter into agreements with boxers and with promoters in order
to televise fights. We will go, and we will continue to do
that, and we will do that with your cooperation, and we will
hopefully--hopefully, in the long term, be standing alongside
the great fighters like Bernard Hopkins and Roy Jones and
Lennox Lewis and Sugar Ray Leonard and Marvin Hagler and Mike
Tyson in his best days as a heavyweight to lift the sport, to
help give it its profile, to help give it its electricity to
the American viewer, and that is really what this is all about.
I am here to support both of you, Senators, as you go into
the future and try to enact a bill, and will be standing right
by your side, because no one wants this sport to thrive more
than HBO.
The Chairman. Mr. Hopkins, thank you for taking time from
your training to be here today. We appreciate it very much.
Mr. Hopkins. Thanks. I would like to thank all of the
Senators. I would like to thank everyone involved in putting
this together, and also I would like to put an invitation out
that any time you need Bernard Hopkins, any time you need
someone in the boxing part as an athlete, being undisputed, I
have a lot of influence on young fighters, and even the ones on
top, and who are trying to get on top, and the ones on the
bottom, I am willing to be here to spearhead, to be the fighter
who speaks out without backing out of something that is very
important to me even after my career is over.
I also have to promote my fight, March 29 in Philadelphia.
The Chairman. Is that Pay-Per View?
Mr. Hopkins. That is HBO--Ross Greenburg is right here, so
it's cool----
[Laughter.]
Mr. Hopkins. That--as we speak, and that is HBO, and that
is my--I named it Sweet 16. Any woman or young lady that is
past 16 understands how, when they turn 16, they feel so proud,
and it was great. This is my 16th defense as a champion, and
everybody at this panel, at this desk here, can know that very
often, very few fighters achieve that in the same weight class.
In the same weight class.
So again, thank you for giving me the time, Senator McCain
and--I forgot your name. I have had 42 fights, and every now
and then--Senator Dorgan.
[Laughter.]
Senator Dorgan. If I am ever ranked number 1, you will know
me.
[Laughter.]
Mr. Hopkins. Okay. Any time you need me, feel free. I am at
your call. I am here to help, as a fighter I am here to help,
and God forbid if I do not keep the title another year or two,
because I am looking to retire by 40. I am 38. I have got a 3-
year-old daughter that I want to raise and be able to talk, and
maybe go talk to her principal and the principal understands
me, so I am considering all that.
Thanks for having me here, and I hope everyone like Tom
Hauser and Bert Sugar, they have a lot of influence on boxing,
too, they write about it. People listen to them. Believe it or
not, people listen to them, and I am glad they are here saying
things I agree with, and they agree with me, so thank you all
for having me here.
The Chairman. Well, thank you, and we appreciate that we
gave you the opportunity for that plug for your upcoming fight,
and we wish you every success. You did not have to mention HBO,
though, they do enough. But thank you very much.
Senator Dorgan. Mr. Chairman, can I just say, the last
hearing we held, Roy Jones, Jr. actually testified at that
hearing, and I might say that you remind me a lot of him, or he
reminds me a lot of you. I take great heart from the fact that
we have two very articulate, very passionate fighters,
champions who care so much about this sport and want to make it
better.
I was impressed when Roy Jones, Jr. came, and I was very
impressed today, Mr. Hopkins.
Mr. Hopkins. We do have something in common. His birthday
is January 16th, mine is the 15th. Maybe it is the personality.
The Chairman. I think the other thing you have is
incredible skills, which I think you are probably the two best
fighters in America.
Mr. Hopkins. Well, call him up and tell him that so I can
get this $10 million and maybe retire early.
The Chairman. I give up. This hearing is adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 11:15 a.m., the Committee adjourned.]