[Senate Hearing 109-186] [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office] S. Hrg. 109-186 THE CONTAINER SECURITY INITIATIVE AND THE CUSTOMS-TRADE PARTNERSHIP AGAINST TERRORISM: SECURING THE GLOBAL SUPPLY CHAIN OR TROJAN HORSE? ======================================================================= HEARING before the PERMANENT SUBCOMMITTEE ON INVESTIGATIONS of the COMMITTEE ON HOMELAND SECURITY AND GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS UNITED STATES SENATE ONE HUNDRED NINTH CONGRESS FIRST SESSION __________ MAY 26, 2005 __________ Printed for the use of the Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 21-825 WASHINGTON : 2005 _____________________________________________________________________________ For Sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office Internet: bookstore.gpo.gov Phone: toll free (866) 512-1800; (202) 512�091800 Fax: (202) 512�092250 Mail: Stop SSOP, Washington, DC 20402�090001 COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENTAL AFFAIRS SUSAN M. COLLINS, Maine, Chairman TED STEVENS, Alaska JOSEPH I. LIEBERMAN, Connecticut GEORGE V. VOINOVICH, Ohio CARL LEVIN, Michigan NORM COLEMAN, Minnesota DANIEL K. AKAKA, Hawaii TOM COBURN, Oklahoma THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware LINCOLN D. CHAFEE, Rhode Island MARK DAYTON, Minnesota ROBERT F. BENNETT, Utah FRANK LAUTENBERG, New Jersey PETE V. DOMENICI, New Mexico MARK PRYOR, Arkansas JOHN W. WARNER, Virginia Michael D. Bopp, Staff Director and Chief Counsel Joyce A. Rechtschaffen, Minority Staff Director and Chief Counsel Trina D. Tyrer, Chief Clerk PERMANENT SUBCOMMITTEE ON INVESTIGATIONS NORM COLEMAN, Minnesota, Chairman TED STEVENS, Alaska CARL LEVIN, Michigan TOM COBURN, Oklahoma DANIEL K. AKAKA, Hawaii LINCOLN D. CHAFEE, Rhode Island THOMAS R. CARPER, Delaware ROBERT F. BENNETT, Utah MARK DAYTON, Minnesota PETE V. DOMENICI, New Mexico FRANK LAUTENBERG, New Jersey JOHN W. WARNER, Virginia MARK PRYOR, Arkansas Raymond V. Shepherd, III, Staff Director and Chief Counsel Brian M. White, Professional Staff Member Elise J. Bean, Minority Staff Director and Chief Counsel Laura e. Stuber, Minority Counsel Mary D. Robertson, Chief Clerk C O N T E N T S ------ Opening statements: Page Senator Coleman.............................................. 1 Senator Levin................................................ 5 Senator Collins.............................................. 7 Senator Akaka................................................ 9 Senator Lautenberg........................................... 10 Senator Carper............................................... 33 WITNESSES Thursday, May 26, 2005 Hon. Robert C. Bonner, Commissioner, Customs and Border Protection, U.S. Department of Homeland Security............... 12 Richard M. Stana, Director, Homeland Security and Justice Issues, U.S. Government accountability Office.......................... 37 Stephan E. Flynn, Commander, U.S. Coast Guard (Ret.), Jeane J. Kirkpatrick Senior Fellow in National Security Studies, Council on Foreign Relations, New York, New York....................... 40 C. Stewart Verdery, Jr., Principal, Mehlman Vogel Castagnetti, Inc., Adjunct Fellow, Center for Strategic and International Studies, and Former Assistant Secretary of Border and Transportation Security Policy, U.S. Department of Homeland Security....................................................... 43 Alphabetical List of Witnesses Bonner, Hon. Robert C.: Testimony.................................................... 12 Prepared statement with attachments.......................... 53 Flynn, Stephen E.: Testimony.................................................... 40 Prepared statement........................................... 94 Stana, Richard M.: Testimony.................................................... 37 Prepared statement........................................... 66 Verdery, C. Stewart, Jr.: Testimony.................................................... 43 Prepared statement........................................... 102 EXHIBITS 1. High-Risk Shipments and Exams Conducted at Selected CSI Ports 2004--CSI Ports: Hong Kong, Yokohama, and Le Havre, chart prepared by the Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations....... 108 2. High-Risk Shipments and Exams Conducted at Selected CSI Ports 2004--CSI Ports: Durban, Gothenburg, and Rotterdam, chart prepared by the Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations....... 109 3. Status of Validating C-TPAT Members as of April 15, 2005 (Not Validated/Validated), chart prepared by the Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations................................. 110 4. C-TPAT Membership Process, chart prepared by the Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations................................. 111 5. Status of Validating C-TPAT Members as of April 15, 2005 (Nonimporters/Importers), chart prepared by the Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations................................. 112 6. Photograph of the Port of Hong Kong......................... 113 7. Photograph of Heimann Mobile x-ray at the Port of Felixstowe, England............................................ 114 8. U.S. Government Accountability Office (GAO) Report to Congressional Requesters, CARGO SECURITY--Partnership Program Grants Importers Reduced Scrutiny with Limited Assurance of Improved Security, March 2005, GAO-05-404...................... 115 9. U.S. Government Accountability Office (GAO) Report to Congressional Requesters, CONTAINER SECURITY--A Flexible Staffing Model and Minimum Equipment Requirements Would Improve Overseas Targeting and Inspection Efforts, April 2005, GAO-05- 557............................................................ 154 10. Responses to supplemental questions for the record submitted to Robert C. Bonner, Commissioner, U. S. Customs and Border Protection, Department of Homeland Security.................... 204 11. Responses to supplemental questions for the record submitted to Richard M. Stana, Director, Homeland Security & Justice Team, Government Accountability Office......................... 215 12. Photograph and x-ray image taken at a Michigan port of a container carrying Canadian trash.............................. 217 THE CONTAINER SECURITY INITIATIVE AND THE CUSTOMS-TRADE PARTNERSHIP AGAINST TERRORISM: SECURING THE GLOBAL SUPPLY CHAIN OR TROJAN HORSE? ---------- THURSDAY, MAY 26, 2005 U.S. Senate, Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations, of the Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs, Washington, DC. The Subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 9:32 a.m., in room SD-106, Dirksen Senate Office Building, Hon. Norm Coleman, Chairman of the Subcommittee, presiding. Present: Senators Coleman, Collins, Levin, Akaka, Carper, and Lautenberg. Staff Present: Raymond V. Shepherd, III, Staff Director and Chief Counsel; Mary D. Robertson, Chief Clerk; Brian M. White, Professional Staff Member; Leland Erickson, Counsel; Mark Nelson, Counsel; Katherine Russell, Detailee (FBI); Jeffrey James, Detailee (IRS); Richard Fahy, Detailee (ICE); Elise J. Bean, Staff Director and Chief Counsel to the Minority; Laura E.Stuber, Counsel to the Minority; Eric J. Diamant, Detailee (GAO); Merril Springer, Intern; and Adam Wallwork, Intern. OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR COLEMAN Senator Coleman. This hearing of the Permanent Subcommittee on Investigations is called to order. Good morning and thank you all for being here today. Today's hearing presents the first opportunity for this Subcommittee to examine key homeland security programs under the recently restructured full Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs. I look forward to working collaboratively with the full Committee and holding several additional oversight hearings on homeland security in the future. After September 11, unfairly or not, Customs and Border Protection (CBP) was thrust onto the front lines of our war on terrorism. CBP was placed in the untenable position of having to transform itself overnight--from an agency focused on interdicting guns, drugs, and money--to the agency chiefly responsible for protecting us against a chemical, biological, radiological, or nuclear attack. Commissioner, I want to thank you for your efforts to date in leading this transformation. Today's hearing will focus on the Federal Government's efforts to secure maritime commerce and the global supply chain. In early 2002, U.S. Customs and Border Protection launched both the Container Security Initiative (CSI), and the Customs-Trade Partnership Against Terrorism (C-TPAT), to address the threat of terrorism and the security of the global supply chain. These programs were, and still are, the right concepts for security in our new threat environment. Under the leadership of Commissioner Bonner, CBP aggressively implemented these programs, rather than endlessly debate the details here in Washington. That accomplishment alone is worth applauding. However, these programs have been in existence for over 3 years and it is time to start asking some tough questions and identifying how we can improve upon these promising concepts. While I believe these programs are indeed the right concepts, our oversight investigation into these programs has revealed significant shortcomings that we will address here today. In concert with our efforts, the Government Accountability Office (GAO), conducted two extensive audits of these programs. These reports reveal some significant problems and outline the substantial work that is required to transition these promising initiatives into effective and sustainable programs. As Secretary Chertoff stated at a full Committee budget hearing in March, ``the worst thing would be this: To have a program for reliable cargo that was insufficiently robust so that people could sneak in and use it as a Trojan Horse. That would be the worst of all worlds.'' Rest assured that PSI will conduct the necessary sustained oversight to strengthen these programs and ensure that they are not used as a Trojan Horse by those whose very raison d'etre is to destroy us. If there was one thing my colleague, Senator Kerry, and President Bush agreed on in their debates this past fall, it was the threat of nuclear terrorism. When both were asked about the ``single most serious threat to the national security of the United States, Senator Kerry responded, nuclear proliferation, nuclear proliferation.'' In response, President Bush concurred and told the audience, ``I agree with my opponent that the biggest threat facing this country is weapons of mass destruction in the hands of a terrorist network.'' Senator Kerry and President Bush agreed because the stakes are so very high. In a recent estimate, a 10 to 20 kiloton nuclear weapon detonated in a major seaport would kill between 50,000 to one million people and result in direct property damage of $50 to $500 billion, losses due to trade disruption of $100 billion to $200 billion, and indirect costs of $300 billion to $1.2 trillion. This is unfathomable and demonstrates why these programs are essential to homeland security. Recently, Director Robert Mueller, ominously assessed the terrorist threat at the annual Global Intelligence Briefing by stating he is concerned ``with the growing body of sensitive reporting that continues to show al Qaeda's clear intention to obtain and ultimately use some form of chemical, biological, radiological, nuclear, or high-energy explosives in attacks against America.'' Many terrorism experts believe that maritime container shipping may serve as an ideal platform to deliver these weapons to the United States. In fact, we recently saw that containers may also serve as ideal platforms to transport potential terrorists into the United States. This was demonstrated on January 15 and again on April 2 this year, when upwards of 30 Chinese immigrants were found emerging from containers arriving at the Port of Los Angeles. I know that the Chair, Senator Collins, was surveying that port and is very familiar with the situation. The individuals were actually not seen sneaking out of a container by the cameras, rather by an observant crane operator. The Subcommittee's concern is that smuggled immigrants could include members of terrorist organizations and/or that the container could have contained a weapon of mass destruction. The Customs-Trade Partnership Against Terrorism, or C-TPAT, attempts to secure the flow of goods bound for the United States by developing voluntary partnerships with the trade community. C-TPAT members--primarily importers--commit to improving the security of their supply chain and provide CBP with their supply chain security profiles for review. In exchange for this commitment, CBP provides C-TPAT members benefits to include upwards of seven times fewer inspection of their cargo at U.S. borders. Our concerns with C-TPAT include, one, these substantial benefits, including fewer inspections, that are provided to importers before a thorough review or validation of their supply chain security profiles, and two, of those validations that occur, the process lacks what I would call rigor or independence. To me, a validation is an independent physical audit of the supply chain security plan provided to CBP. However, CBP views a validation as an opportunity to ``share best practices'' and explicitly states that ``validations are not audits.'' Furthermore, of the 2,676 certified C-TPAT importers receiving reduced inspections, only 6 percent, 179, have been validated. Hence, 94 percent of the C-TPAT importers currently receiving seven times fewer inspections have not had their supply chain security personally validated by a CBP officer. This is simply unacceptable. The Container Security Initiative (CSI) was implemented to enable CBP to target high-risk containers for inspection at overseas ports prior to their departure for U.S. ports. Currently operating in 36 foreign ports, this program is based on the concept of ``pushing out our borders.'' While this concept is laudable and it is a good concept, a review of CBP data by this Subcommittee and GAO raises significant concerns. Many CSI ports are unable to inspect the quantity of containers necessary to significantly improve security. Our Subcommittee has identified some CSI reports that routinely ``waive'' the inspection of high-risk containers, despite requests by CSI personnel for an inspection. As a result, numerous high-risk containers are not subjected to an examination overseas, thereby undermining the primary objective and purpose of CSI. More specifically, CBP inspects approximately one-third of 1 percent of the total number of containers headed for U.S. shores from CSI ports. Equipment such as nuclear detection devices and non-intrusive inspection machines used for overseas inspections are untested and are of unknown quality. And CBP is unable to compare the performance of one CSI port to another. And finally, Customs identified 1.95 percent of containers transiting through CSI ports in 2004 as high-risk, and that is not a bad thing. However, of those containers deemed high-risk, only 17.5 percent are inspected overseas. Let me make the record clear. We have had a lot of discussion about numbers. CBP asserts that 90 percent of high- risk containers are inspected abroad, and when GAO states that 72 percent of high-risk containers are inspected abroad, they are referring to high-risk containers referred for inspection. When I state that only 17.5 percent of high-risk containers are inspected abroad, I am referring to all containers designated high-risk by CBP. So you have, and there is a chart showing this,\1\ a number of containers designated high-risk, but then a smaller percentage which are designated for inspection, and I believe at least domestically here that we inspect all high- risk containers. And yet abroad, I think our figure of 17.5 percent is the valid figure. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- \1\ See Exhibits No. 1 and 2 which appears in the Appendix on pages 108 and 109 respectively. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- While these findings are troubling, Customs has already moved aggressively to improve these programs by fulfilling the recommendations of the GAO audits. These changes are encouraging and are worth highlighting. I look forward to Commissioner Bonner's discussion of these substantial modifications. However, based on our oversight, I believe much work remains for Customs to build more robust and effective security programs--in partnership with industry--to confront the very real terrorist threat. This partnership will entail a transformation of the trade community, where security becomes embedded in the global supply chain. Instead of security being a cost of doing business, security needs to become a way of doing business. I want to take this opportunity to thank Ranking Member Levin, Chairman Collins, Senator Lieberman, and Representative Dingell for their support and interest in this important subject. Securing our Nation's borders and ports demands a bipartisan and bicameral approach. I would also like to thank Richard Stana, of the GAO, and his outstanding team of Stephen Caldwell, Deena Richart, and Kathryn Godfrey for producing two insightful reports that will contribute to improving our homeland security. I would like to welcome and thank the Commissioner of U.S. Customs and Border Protection, Commissioner Bonner, the Director of Homeland Security and Justice Team at GAO. Richard Stana, Commander Steven Flynn of the Council on Foreign Relations, and Stewart Verdery, the former Department of Homeland Security Assistant Secretary for Border and Transportation Security for appearing before this Subcommittee today. I look forward to their testimony and an engaging hearing. With that, I would like to recognize my Ranking Member, Senator Levin. OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR LEVIN Senator Levin. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate your effort, your energy, your commitment on a very difficult subject. It is an important security issue that we are addressing here this morning and the Chairman's leadership in this effort is essential and I commend you for it. I also want to commend our other colleagues, as you have, including Congressman John Dingell, the dean of the House, for his ongoing interest in this issue and for the major contributions that he has made to the investigation. On September 30, 2004, President Bush said ``the biggest threat facing this country is weapons of mass destruction in the hands of a terrorist network.'' On February 16, 2005, Porter Goss, Director of CIA, or Central Intelligence, told the Senate, ``It may be only a matter of time before al Qaeda or another group attempts to use chemical, biological, radiological, or nuclear weapons.'' In 1998, Osama bin Laden declared that acquiring chemical or nuclear weapons ``is a religious duty.'' These types of statements show that blocking avenues that could be used to smuggle weapons of mass destruction into this country is of utmost importance to our security. Today's hearing focuses on one of those avenues: The 23 million containers that enter the United States each year. The Container Security Initiative (CSI) and the Customs- Trade Partnership Against Terrorism (C-TPAT), are two programs designed by Customs as part of what it has called a multi- layered strategy to detect and prevent weapons from entering the United States through containers. The two reports being released today by the Government Accountability Office (GAO), have identified deficiencies in both programs and are the focus of today's hearing. Container security has special significance to me because each year, over 3 million containers cross the Michigan- Canadian border, 3 million containers a year. Many of these containers carry municipal solid waste from Canada and enter Michigan by truck at three ports: Port Huron, Detroit, and Sault Ste. Marie. Each month, in one of those ports, Port Huron alone, approximately 7,000 to 8,000 containers of Canadian waste enter Michigan across that border. Leaving aside the issue of why our Canadian neighbors are sending so much trash to my home State of Michigan each day, key question is whether our Customs personnel have the technology and resources necessary to inspect those containers and ensure that they are not carrying weapons of mass destruction into our country. One key type of detection equipment used to screen containers for security purposes uses X-rays to examine their contents. But X-rays of trash containers are usually unreadable--the trash is so dense and variable, that it is impossible to identify anomalies, such as weapons or other contraband. This photograph taken at a Michigan port of a container carrying Canadian trash illustrates the problem.\1\ Anything could be stashed in the middle of one of these trash containers, and our border personnel would have no way of detecting anomalies in the picture, and that is what they look for, anomalies. In trash, everything is anomalous. It is the definition of trash. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- \1\ See Exhibit No. 12 which appears in the Appendix on page 217. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The effectiveness of Customs detection equipment when it comes to trash containers is an issue that I have raised before with the Department of Homeland Security and other agencies and I raise it again today. The bottom line is that if we are relying on this equipment to detect WMD or other contraband in containers filled with trash, we are putting our faith in a faulty and limited system. We need to address that problem. The GAO reports raise a number of other very troubling container security issues that need to be addressed, and just a few of them, I will highlight here. First, inspection failures at foreign ports. The Chairman has addressed this issue and I will quickly summarize. One key problem identified in the GAO reports is the ongoing failure of the CSI program to convince foreign governments to inspect containers identified by U.S. personnel as high-risk cargo. I want to emphasize what the Chairman said. This is cargo we have identified as high-risk cargo. Now, the GAO found that 28 percent of the containers referred by U.S. personnel to a host government were not inspected. Maybe someone wants to argue over the percentage. I will stay with the GAO. But whether it is 10 percent, 20 percent, or 28 percent, every one of those containers that are high-risk containers identified by us should be inspected. One out of four containers, according to the GAO numbers, identified by U.S. personnel as high-risk cargo were not inspected. If these high-risk containers are not being inspected overseas, then why are we letting them into the United States? Another issue is overseas personnel costs. Another issue of concern involves CSI staffing levels overseas, and whether we are spending a needless amount of money to maintain U.S. personnel at foreign ports. We obviously want U.S. personnel at foreign ports, but the idea that we are paying an average cost of $430,000 annually, per year, to keep each American overseas is amazingly high. It is a figure which is incredibly high to me, and the latest figures from Customs indicate there are currently 114 Customs employees overseas at 36 ports. Now, it is helpful to have that staff working directly with host nations, and I am all for it. We ought to do it at a much more reasonable cost than that, but I am all for it. But typically, only one or two CSI team members deal directly with the host government's customs officials, while others work primarily at computers, analyzing data. The question is whether it is cost effective to place an entire CSI team at a port when only one or two individuals are personally interacting with foreign government personnel. Then we have the C-TPAT program. We have an automatic reduction in containers' scores because of that Partnership Against Terrorism. The reduction in the score is automatic and the question is whether or not it should be, where you automatically ease inspection standards for each shipper that signs up for the program. Right now, as soon as the shipper files the application to become a C-TPAT member, Customs immediately reduces the shipper's Automatic Targeting System (ATS) score by a sizeable amount of points, without any verification that a reduced score is appropriate. A sizeable, automatic point reduction is of concern because it may be enough to move a shipper from a high-risk category to a medium- or even low-risk category, reducing the chance that the shipper's containers will be inspected, even if the shipper hasn't yet met the program's minimum security requirements, and that is the issue. C-TPAT members shouldn't get the benefits of the program's just for signing up. The shipper should also have to show that it is meeting the program's security requirements to get the benefits. Customs carried on the approval at a fairly slow pace, and validating those plans has also been fairly slow. So after 3 years, Customs approved only about 50 percent of the security plans submitted by C-TPAT members and rejected about 20 percent. Of the approved plans, Customs has actually validated compliance for only about 10 percent, which means that almost 90 percent of the firms that are given reduced Customs scrutiny have never undergone a validation process showing that they are entitled to the reduced scrutiny. That is a large validation gap that invites abuse and we ought to try to correct it. It may be an appropriations issue, I am not sure. Finally, GAO has determined that DHS has no specified minimum technical requirements for the inspection equipment being developed and used at CSI ports and we need those standards in order to know whether the equipment being purchased is doing the job that needs to be done. It is an enormous problem, this container security issue which the Committee is addressing today. It is going to require an enormous effort to address, but again, I commend our Chairman for his leadership in addressing these gaps and addressing these problems. He is doing it for exactly the right reason, which is the security of this Nation. We want to be as positive as we possibly can be to give the assistance to Customs that they need to carry out these programs efficiently and effectively. Senator Coleman. Thank you, Senator Levin. I think it is interesting to note that Senator Levin, myself, and the Chairman all have States that are border States, and so these issues are particularly important. It is always an honor to have Chairman Collins here. This has really been her issue. She has personally vested time and energy in it. She has put it on the radar screen. She has been out to various ports, surveying the situation there, and so I just want to publicly thank her for her deep concern and leadership in raising these questions, and hopefully the work of the Subcommittee will assist her in her efforts to ensure greater security and greater safety for all our ports and borders. So with that, Chairman Collins. OPENING STATEMENT OF CHAIRMAN COLLINS Chairman Collins. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Let me commend you for your efforts to assess and improve the security of our vital maritime industry. You are correct that this issue is of great personal interest to me. I have long been concerned and convinced that our ports are one of our, if not the greatest, vulnerability that we have, and your hearing builds very well on previous oversight hearings that we have held at the full Committee. Coming from a State with the largest port by tonnage in New England, I am keenly aware of the importance of our seaports to our national economy. Ninety-five percent of U.S. trade, both imports and exports, moves through our seaports, and in the year 2004, the value of these imports alone exceeded $600 billion. I also understand the link between maritime security and our national security. In my judgment, based on the work that we have done and supplemented by the excellent work of this Subcommittee, the weakest link in maritime security is the cargo container. It used to be when I would see a giant cargo ship come into a port, I viewed it as a marvel of the global economy. Now, I worry that one of those containers may include the makings of a dirty bomb, a group of terrorists, or even a nuclear weapon. In 2004, nearly 27,000 of these potential Trojan Horses entered our country each day through our seaports. That amounts to roughly 9.7 million containers in that year. We know that most of the inbound containers are transporting legitimate goods--TV sets, sneakers, or toys. But we also know that smugglers for years have exploited the vulnerabilities of our container system to smuggle in contraband, such as drugs, illegal aliens, and other illegitimate commerce. Given the current technology and the sheer volume of traffic, we simply cannot inspect every container without bringing trade to a standstill. We cannot follow every container through its global journey, nor can we track every container and every piece of cargo along the roads, rails, and airways that bring them to ports. No one nation can secure the international supply chain. The two programs we examine today are designed to make securing the supply chain exactly what it should be, a shared responsibility, a shared partnership between the public and private sectors, a shared responsibility among nations. While these programs are extremely well conceived, their level of success can only be described as modest. A substantial majority of our ports worldwide are not part of the CSI program. The overwhelming majority of private sector entities have not enrolled in C-TPAT. Terrorists are nothing if not opportunistic. These gaps in security may well be too wide to ignore. Equally troubling, however, are the indications that the CSI and C-TPAT agreements in place are not as strong in practice as they appear to be on paper, and both of my colleagues already outlined some of the GAO's findings in this regard and we will hear from the GAO later today, so I won't repeat it here. We should, however, recognize the fact that Customs and Border Protection was compelled to roll out these two programs very quickly during a time of great stress and uncertainty. Given the urgent need to take action against terrorism following September 11, it is understandable that these programs began with what is frequently called the implement and amend approach. In other words, get it started and fix the problems as they come up. We must ensure, however, that the problems are, indeed, identified and fixed. The consequences of failing to do so could be staggering. The West Coast dock labor dispute in the fall of 2002 cost our economy an estimated $1 billion for each of the 10 days that it lasted. It not only brought the affected ports to a halt, but it also harmed businesses throughout this country and among our international trading partners. And that astonishing amount of economic damage was the result of an event that was both peaceful and anticipated. Just think what a deliberate attack on one of our large ports, or even a small port, could do to our economy. It would bring it to a standstill. It would result in all seaports being closed down temporarily, and obviously, it could cause a significant loss of life. The use of the Trojan Horse analogy is apt. Earlier this year, as the Chairman indicated, I toured the Ports of Los Angeles and Long Beach. The size of these facilities and the amount of activity is just extraordinary to behold. But so, too, are the risks and the vulnerabilities they offer for terrorists to exploit. I saw from the air from a Coast Guard helicopter the enormous number of containers being unloaded from ships in these two ports. By coincidence, as the Chairman mentioned, my visit came immediately before 32 Chinese nationals were smuggled into the Port of Los Angeles on two cargo containers. Fortunately, that Trojan Horse held people seeking a better way of life, not terrorists seeking to destroy our way of life. They were caught, but what is particularly disturbing about this case is they were not caught due to any security initiative or the technology or extensive television network surveillance cameras that were in place, but rather, as the Chairman indicated, by an alert crane operator. It is also troubling that the same kind of incident happened a second time just a few months later. We cannot continue to rely on luck or even alert crane operators to provide for the security of our seaports, our Nation, and our people. Mr. Chairman, I look forward to hearing the testimony today. Senator Coleman. Chairman Collins, I again want to thank you for your leadership on this important issue. Senator Akaka. OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR AKAKA Senator Akaka. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I am glad to join you in this hearing and I thank you for convening this hearing on the Container Security Initiative and the Customs- Trade Partnership Against Terrorism. These programs represent critical layers in the protection of American cargo and ports. Cargo security is especially important to my State of Hawaii because, as I noted in many previous hearings, Hawaii receives 98 percent of the goods it imports via the sea. An interruption in sea commerce could have a staggering impact on the daily lives of the people in Hawaii. Last week, Department of Homeland Security Secretary Chertoff stated that we need to create a world that is banded together with ``worldwide security envelopes,'' which he described as secure environments through which people and cargo can move rapidly, efficiently, and safely. Programs such as CSI and C-TPAT, which use voluntarily submitted information to focus scarce screening resources on high-risk shippers and cargo should be the cornerstones of Secretary Chertoff's vision. It is important not only to examine whether these programs function well, but how they will fit into Secretary Chertoff's vision of a worldwide security envelope. I have yet to see details that convince me that DHS has executed the planning necessary to achieve such a coordinated global effort. Unfortunately, there is only minimal coordination of international programs across the Department. For example, there are Immigration and Customs Enforcement, ICE, agents investigating illegal customs activities in countries that have CSI ports, and yet, often the Customs and Border Protection and ICE teams--can you imagine this--do not talk to each other. CSI teams are scrubbing data daily, looking for anomalies relating to weapons of mass destruction, but we also must be concerned about drug smuggling, human trafficking, counterfeit goods, and invasive species. We need to ensure that our international partnerships are not program specific. DHS's Office of International Affairs could play a critical role in coordinating operations abroad of the various entities within the Department. We need effective coordination to ensure that our various security programs are integrated and are mutually reinforcing. I look forward to the testimony of our witnesses, and thank you so much, Mr. Chairman. Senator Coleman. Thank you, Senator Akaka. Senator Lautenberg. OPENING STATEMENT OF SENATOR LAUTENBERG Senator Lautenberg. Thanks, Mr. Chairman, for holding this hearing. We have a duty in Congress to step back every once in a while and oversee how things are going. This is such an opportunity. I concur with your comments, Mr. Chairman, about the Chairman of the entire Committee. She has been very much interested and diligent about homeland security issues, so it is a welcome addition to the dialogue here that Chairman Collins is with us. In this case, I am afraid that the report card is one that will not make anyone particularly proud. The Administration has failed on port security. I'm concerned that if we review every program at DHS with the zeal that this Subcommittee shows here today, we might find even more frightening results. It has been almost 4 years since September 11 and we still inspect only 5.5 percent of all containers coming into the United States. Two programs, the Container Security Initiative and the Customs-Trade Partnership Against Terrorism, are aimed at detecting terrorist weapons brought to our country. But CSI has resulted in inspections of only 17.5 percent of high-risk cargo. The Customs and Border Protection may claim that they can only ask foreign countries to inspect for WMDs, but terrorists ship things other than weapons, too, like drugs, which are sold to pay for terrorist operations, and we rely on other nations to perform these inspections. We don't have standards for the equipment that they use to inspect. We don't even oversee some of these foreign inspections. In some cases, DHS personnel in the CSI program are stationed an hour away from where the actual loading takes place. There are big problems with the CSI program, as I expect our witnesses will discuss in more detail. The bottom line, however is that the Federal Government has not been doing enough to protect our citizens from container-borne threats. As for the C-TPAT program, it is alarming to me that after September 11, that the Administration would fashion a voluntary homeland security program to try and improve supply chains. If a voluntary program were all that was needed, then the industry could have done that on its own. If September 11 taught us anything, it should be the government has a duty to protect its citizens from terrorism, not simply rely on companies to upgrade security at isolated parts of a worldwide logistics system. We saw that very sharply in our inspection of cargo at the airports--the baggage screenage. The private sector was doing it as a business and doing it very poorly. I am pleased to say that I have seen marked improvements in those inspection routines. If the Administration knows what security measures should be taken to improve security of our logistics system, they should require them, not make them, optional. And finally, the Port Security Grant Program is now administered by the Office of Domestic Preparedness. Last September, the Administration announced a round of grants to help secure our ports. But those resources were not targeted to the ports that are most at risk, and it is a subject that I have discussed fairly frequently about security grants in general. Some of the grants went to facilities in Oklahoma, Indiana, and Kentucky, hardly the front lines of the war on terror, certainly not with the port presence that we have in the States that are represented here. I think it is just common sense that Port Security Grants should be based on risk, not politics. And I know that the Inspector General has agreed with my position. We cannot afford to play politics with port security. The consequences of failure are simply too great. Some 20 million people live near the New York-New Jersey port facilities, which are vulnerable to terrorist attacks. Hazardous materials move in and out of the port through pipelines and over roads and freight rail lines, and Newark Liberty International Airport is within a mile of the harbor or the port. So it is easy to imagine what is at stake for my State and the Nation if our port is attacked. I am upset with the failures of the Administration on port security and I hope these hearings this day will help illuminate the dangerous lapses and loopholes that leave our citizens at risk. I hope these hearings help us find solutions for moving forward. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Senator Coleman. Thank you, Senator Lautenberg. I would now like to call our first witness for today's hearing. It is my pleasure to welcome the Hon. Robert C. Bonner, Commissioner of U.S. Customs and Border Protection for the Department of Homeland Security. Commissioner Bonner, I appreciate your attendance at today's hearing and look forward to your testimony regarding CBP's efforts to secure maritime trade and the global supply chain, and let me say up front, we recognize the enormity of the task. I believe there are over 9 million eight-by-eight cargo containers that enter this country annually, and so we are looking at needles in a very big haystack. I also want to publicly thank you for your efforts to date. We do recognize that strides have been made, tremendous improvements have been made. But certainly the purpose of oversight is to look at what we have and say, how do we make it better? The stakes are simply so high here, they are so high that, clearly, this is the kind of oversight that is needed. Before we begin, pursuant to Rule 6, all witnesses before the Subcommittee are required to be sworn in. I would ask you to please stand and raise your right hand. Do you swear that the testimony you are about to give before the Subcommittee is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you, God? Mr. Bonner. I do. Senator Coleman. We will be using a timing system today. I think the oral testimony should be no more than 10 minutes. When you see the amber light come on, come to a conclusion. But your entire testimony will be entered into the record as a whole. With that, Commissioner, please proceed. TESTIMONY OF HON. ROBERT C. BONNER,\1\ COMMISSIONER, CUSTOMS AND BORDER PROTECTION, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY Mr. Bonner. I appreciate that, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the kind words, and Senator Levin, Chairman Collins. I am very pleased to appear before the Subcommittee, Mr. Chairman, today to have this opportunity to discuss two very important initiatives of Customs and Border Protection and these are the Container Security Initiative and the Customs-Trade Partnership Against Terrorism, or C-TPAT. And I want to thank the Members of the Subcommittee for your support of CBP and the work that it does every day to help protect America and keep it safe, and by that, I mean the help that this Committee, the Subcommittee has given us to help secure our borders and our ports. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- \1\ The prepared statement of Mr. Bonner appears in the Appendix on page 53. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I might also say, Mr. Chairman, that the GAO and this Subcommittee and the staff of the Subcommittee have offered over the course of time some very valuable suggestions to us and recommendations with respect to both CSI and C-TPAT, and I can tell you that we appreciate the interest and oversight, and we also have taken many of these suggestions and recommendations to heart because we have implemented a good many of them. These initiatives that I want to talk about a bit this morning, as you know, seek to add security to our country, but to do so without choking off the flow of legitimate trade that is so important to our economy. I would say one of the realizations that I had, and I am sure many people did on the morning of September 11, was that on that morning, the priority mission of U.S. Customs, now Customs and Border Protection, became national security. The mission became nothing short of doing everything that we could responsibly with the resources we have to prevent terrorists and terrorist weapons from getting into our country. But I will also say, having been there, that there was another realization that came to me the following day, on September 12, 2001, and that is as important as it is that we increase our security and make it more difficult for al Qaeda and al Qaeda-associated terrorist organizations to be able to attack America and to get into this country or to get weapons into this country, we had to do that without shutting down our economy. On the morning of September 11, U.S. Customs went to the highest security-level alert that existed at that time, short of actually just shutting down the ports of entry into our country. And the result as, by the next day, September 12, we had virtually shut down our border. The wait times at the Ambassador Bridge that comes from Ontario over to Detroit, the bridges into Buffalo from Canada, they literally froze up. We went from wait times on September 10 that averaged about 10 minutes to 12 hours by September 12 and September 13. And so it was important that we figured out, as best we could and as quickly as we could, how we did the security in a way that didn't shut down our economy in the process, because I can tell you, by the 13th and 14th of September, as a result of the actions that we took, companies, many companies that relied on just-in-time deliveries in the United States were ready to shut down their plants. In fact, a few plants of the major automobile manufacturers did shut down on September 14. So we have needed, as we have looked at this issue, to figure out ways that we could accomplish essentially what I would describe as twin goals: The goals of securing our country in a way that does not shut down the flow of legitimate trade and damage our economy. And those twin goals, and I have described them many times, are part and parcel of CBP's strategy of a smart border and an extended border strategy, one that pushes our zone of security out beyond our borders so that we know what is headed our way before it arrives here at our ports and so that our borders are our last line of defense, not our first line of defense. And when I say our borders here, I mean all of our ports, official ports of entry into the United States, all the official crossing points. Our strategy, by the way, that we put together and we have implemented is essentially based upon four interrelated and interlocking initiatives. It is no one initiative. This is a layered approach that we have taken to increase significantly the security of maritime cargo and all cargo moving into the United States. But it is built upon four key initiatives, and the first is the 24-hour and Trade Act rules, and these were rules and regulations we put into place requiring advance electronic information, initially on all ocean-going sea containers 24 hours before they were shipped to the United States, and now on all cargo shipped to the United States. The second initiative was building and developing the Automated Targeting System that is our risk targeting system at CBP's National Targeting Center that uses targeting rules that are based upon strategic intelligence and anomaly analysis to assess for risk of terrorism every single cargo shipment that heads to the United States before it arrives. And in the case of sea cargo containers, before it even leaves foreign seaports to the United States. The third is the Container Security Initiative, and that, of course, is our partnership with governments, other governments of the world to screen high-risk containers before they are loaded on board vessels for the United States. To implement CSI, we have entered into CSI agreements with over 23 countries and we have implemented, that is made operational CSI at 36 of the largest foreign seaports of the world, seaports that include everything from Rotterdam to Singapore to, recently, Shanghai. Now, these didn't all start at once. They started with one port. You have to start someplace. That was the Port of Rotterdam, by the way, as a result of an agreement with the Dutch, with the Netherlands, and the most recent port being Shanghai, China, one of the largest seaports in Asia. The fourth initiative was the Customs-Trade Partnership Against Terrorism, or C-TPAT, and that is our partnership with the private sector, with the major U.S. importers, with ocean- going carriers and others that own, operate, or are key participants in the supply chain from overseas to the United States. Today, C-TPAT has more than 5,000 certified C-TPAT companies who have, I submit, increased the security of the supply chain, literally from the foreign loading docks of their foreign suppliers to U.S. ports of arrival, and they have done it, in part, in exchange for benefits from Customs and Border Protection in the form of faster processing of their goods on arrival. Let me say just right out of the box here, none of those initiatives existed on September 11. All of them have been put in place since September 11, and taken together, these initiatives are part of our layered strategy and they do provide greater protection to our country against terrorist attacks, and importantly, they provide greater protection for the primary system of international trade. These initiatives help protect the trading system itself against potential terrorist exploitation. I might add, by the way, while I didn't list it as an initiative, of course, part of our strategy, too, has been adding significant additional detection technology at our own borders, at our own ports of entry, both seaports and land ports, to better detect against potential terrorist weapons. But CSI and C-TPAT, they are revolutionary initiatives, but they were initiatives that, in my judgment, in our judgment, we needed to move forward with, and we needed to move forward with them quickly, indeed, as quickly as possible because for all practical purposes, there was no security of the supply chain to protect essentially the movement of goods to the United States before September 11, or very little. But these initiatives are and they were always intended to be--let me make this point very clear--dynamic and evolving initiatives that have improved and need to continue to improve. These initiatives work in concert with each other and with the National Targeting Center and with advance information and risk management. As a result of one of the recommendations of the GAO, we have decided to, for example, reduce the credits for being a certified C-TPAT partner. We didn't eliminate them, but we have reduced them and we have gone to a tiered system. Let me also say that, with respect to these initiatives, I think it is important to understand that essentially as we proposed and launched them, that many people actually said that it couldn't be done. Many people said it would take years to get them done, that there were sovereignty concerns and all of that. And I can tell you that customs agencies in other countries around the world, they use their inspectional capabilities for inbound containers. It was a revolutionary idea to say, based upon the United States making a request that we deem this container high-risk and after analysis something that should be inspected outbound, that we want foreign countries to inspect containers going outbound rather than inbound into their respective countries. And there may be some disagreement on the percentage here, but based upon the number of containers that we have requested be inspected by our host nation colleagues in these 36 foreign seaports, those requests have been honored about 90 percent of the time. There have been occasions where we have gotten additional information from the host nation where we could actually assess the risk as not being sufficient to require an outbound inspection, and there have been--I think the point is, you have to be there, you have to work with these countries in order to make sure that we have as many of the highest-risk containers that are searched outbound before they come to the United States. If they are not searched there, though, this is a layered defense strategy and we have mandated that every container that we deem to be high-risk for purposes of inbound, and that is every container that scores above 190 pursuant to our Automated Targeting System, it must be inspected upon arrival into the United States if it has not been inspected in an outbound CSI port. Mr. Chairman, I see my time is up. I just want to conclude by saying that I believe that these initiatives are working. I am convinced that America is safer today because of them. I look forward to working with this Subcommittee, with the full Committee, with the Congress, with GAO to further improve, because there are some further improvements we want to make to make these initiatives even more effective. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Senator Coleman. Thank you very much, Commissioner. I want to first talk about C-TPAT and the concern that we have. Can we have Exhibit 4\1\ displayed? Let us first talk about the process by which someone becomes a member. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- \1\ See Exhibit No. 4 which appears in the Appendix on page 111. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The concern is if there is a recognition--can we turn that sideways? Thank you. By virtue of membership, the benefit is a diminished likelihood of inspection. Is that the purpose? Mr. Bonner. That is the essential bargain that incentivizes the investment by private sector companies to improve their supply chain security. Senator Coleman. The concern is that to receive benefits, a company provides Customs and Border Protection with their supply chain security profile. The supply chain specialist looks at the written information, checks various databases, and upon successful completion of this paper review, a member receives seven times as few inspections. Is that a fair summary of the process today? Mr. Bonner. Well, before we have modified this, and we did it recently, I thought it was about six times less likely that you would receive a security inspection if you had committed to meet the security standards and criteria of C-TPAT. Senator Coleman. One can talk about the number of times, but in effect, are you virtually ensuring that shipments will not be searched? Mr. Bonner. No, by no means. But it does recognize that if you have committed--and by the way, in many instances, we are talking about major U.S. importers that we have dealt with, that U.S. Customs has dealt with for many years who are signing on the line that they are committing to meet the security criteria of C-TPAT, and that means that they are making a commitment to use their leverage against their foreign suppliers and vendors to meet the security criteria of C-TPAT. We are actually reaching into a part of the supply chain that is beyond the regulatory reach of the United States. I want this Subcommittee to understand that. In other words, we could not even regulate what a foreign supplier does in terms of supply chain security, but large U.S. importers which are C- TPAT members have the leverage to require those security criteria to be met under their purchase contracts and purchase orders, and that is what C-TPAT companies are doing. They have committed to do that. If they are not, by the way, they are subject potentially to criminal prosecution, penalties, and the like. So there is some measure of assurance that they have actually done what they have said they are going to do because we have dealt with them over the years. We know that they can be trusted. Now, we haven't ended it there, as you know, Mr. Chairman. We have said, trust but verify, and I have heard the recommendations of the GAO and I believe that we need to--and we are ramping up the verifications of C-TPAT members. Right now we have about 12 percent of the U.S. importers that are certified C-TPAT members that are validated. That is to say, we have verified that they are meeting their commitments with respect to their foreign supply chain. We have another 40 percent that are in progress. So over half of the current C-TPAT partners, we have either validated or we are in the process of validating their supply chain, and we are hiring up and ramping up the number of supply chain security specialists at Customs and Border Protection in order to be able to do this more rapidly and to make sure that the C-TPAT members out there know that we are going to validate, and frankly, if they aren't living up to their commitments, and most of them are, virtually all of them are, but the ones that aren't are going to be suspended and decertified and thrown out of the program. Senator Coleman. We have a discussion about numbers here. At least as I understand it--I think Exhibit 3\1\ demonstrates--that we currently have 9,011 applicants to the program---- --------------------------------------------------------------------------- \1\ See Exhibit No. 3 which appears in the Appendix on page 110. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mr. Bonner. That is about right. Senator Coleman. I have applicants, of which 4,857 have been certified by staff members and now receive the benefits. But in terms of validation, only 546 of those certified have had their security programs verified or validated. Is that accurate? Mr. Bonner. I think that is about right. Ten to 12 percent have had the validations completed and there are another, roughly, of the importers, another about 40 percent or so that are in progress. Senator Coleman. But all those that are certified receive the benefit of participating in the program. Mr. Bonner. That is right. We have reduced that benefit now recently based upon some of this recommendation. Senator Coleman. Now you have a tiered benefit. As a result of the investigations---- Mr. Bonner. You are absolutely right. There are benefits in terms of some degree of reduced inspections because you have committed and represented to U.S. Customs and Border Protection that you have and are meeting the minimal supply chain security criteria for your supply chain back to your foreign vendor. So that is true. Senator Coleman. I believe that in the two instances that the Chairman spoke of, where Chinese nationals were smuggled into this country, involved C-TPAT members. Is that correct? Mr. Bonner. It was a C-TPAT ocean-going carrier. The importer wasn't C-TPAT nor was--but the one link that was C- TPAT there was the ocean-going carrier, in other words, the company that was actually carrying the container from--and that was from, in both cases, from the port of Shekou, which is in Shenzhen, China, to the Port of Los Angeles-Long Beach. Senator Coleman. Let me go back on the validation process. Can you briefly describe that? Mr. Bonner. Well, yes. The validation process, we try to avoid the word ``audit'' because it has historic repercussions for the trade, Customs audits, and this is pre-September 11, before I became Commissioner, but it usually meant months that people would be in your company poring over all of your papers for compliance purposes. But it is a verification. The validation is a verification that you have, in fact, implemented the commitments that you have made and that you have said you are carrying out to improve the security of your supply chain, for example, that you actually do have in your purchase order contractual requirements of your foreign suppliers that it meet the security criteria that the C-TPAT importer has told it must do in order to be a certified C-TPAT importer, and that they do periodically monitor to see that their contract, that the contractual obligation is carried out. Now, we are verifying that--that is an essential part of the supply chain--as part of our validation process, Mr. Chairman. Senator Coleman. The GAO report has raised concerns that the validation process does not have any standard operating procedure. There is not a uniform system of validation. Is that a fair criticism? Mr. Bonner. I know that there was a criticism in the GAO report, and as a result of the criticism, we have put together a validation plan and I believe it sets forth our strategy for validations, how we prioritize validations, what we want our validators to look for. By the way, I will agree, at the very beginning of this process that we were--how do we know what the best practices were for the supply chain security? We went to major companies and we found out what it was. We had to develop expertise in this area. I think we have a lot now. But I believe we have met the concern of--a number of concerns that GAO raised, one of which was that we needed to have a validation plan, how we were going to go about it, what the rules of the games are. I am not saying, by the way, there can't be improvements here. Mr. Stana may well suggest some and we are interested in continually improving how we validate, and the fact that we want to validate the C-TPAT members and we have a regime now and a staffing level that is going to help us do that far more rapidly than we were able to do when we launched this program, starting with seven private sector companies that partnered with us back in December 2001. Senator Coleman. Commissioner, I will sum it up this way. I understand the vision of C-TPAT is to identify best practices and then use those. The concern, however, is that you have a substantial number of operations--and they are not all Wal-Mart and they are not all internationally known operations--that receive substantial benefits prior to certification, prior to validation, and the program is expanding. I think that is the concern in this here report, and I appreciate the fact that you are continuing to look at this, to develop a tiered system, to improve the validation process, but I think those concerned, based on the risk if we fail, and you are in a business where failure, you can't allow it. If we fail, folks are going to come back and say, how did you let this operation get through? They simply applied. It was done on paper. You never looked at their operation, never did any physical review, never did any audit, never did any validation, and they are going to be pointing right at you and I think it is going to be tough to respond if, God forbid, the unthinkable happens. Mr. Bonner. Well, nobody gets benefits unless they have been certified, and as you know, Mr. Chairman, of the security plans that have been put forward to us, we rejected one out of five. About 1,000, we have said, no, this doesn't cut it. This is not meeting the security criteria that is required for C- TPAT. But I understand what you are saying and we agree, I think, that we need to--actually, as a result of things that the Subcommittee and the staff has done here, I have taken a look with my staff and we have not eliminated, we have reduced the level of benefits for just being certified and moved to a tiered system so that you do get more increased benefits after we have actually validated or verified that you have met your commitments. Senator Coleman. That is appreciated, Commissioner. Senator Levin. Senator Levin. If you are certified but not validated, you get less benefits? Mr. Bonner. That is right. Senator Levin. You said before the changes, there was six times less likelihood of what? Mr. Bonner. Well, if you---- Senator Levin. Less likelihood of---- Mr. Bonner [continuing]. Were certified, just on average-- this is just taking a statistical analysis--if you were a certified C-TPAT member, you had made the commitments, said you were doing them, and so forth, it was less likely that you would get inspected. The reason is---- Senator Levin. Six times---- Mr. Bonner [continuing]. You got a credit. You literally got a credit against the Risk Targeting Scoring System for being a certified C-TPAT partner---- Senator Levin. You were six times---- Mr. Bonner [continuing]. The effect of which---- Senator Levin. Got you. You were six times less likely. Mr. Bonner. Yes. Senator Levin. After the changes, where you now tier the benefit, depending on whether it has been validated, if you are not validated, what is the multiplier? Are you four times less likely? Mr. Bonner. Let me tell you what it means in terms of the scoring credit. We reduced the scoring credit from about 125 for being certified, plus you could also get a potential of even more than that just for being certified, we have reduced that down to 75. And we have done an evaluation, Senator, we have done an evaluation at Customs and Border Protection and this is our National Targeting Center, it is our Office of Intelligence, and so forth, an evaluation of looking at the various risk factors that are in our targeting rules, and there are 300 targeting rules that can fire with respect to any particular container and there is a certain level of points, if you will, that are assigned if a container--and they go from--I don't want to go into great detail here---- Senator Levin. Yes, I wish you wouldn't. Mr. Bonner [continuing]. By country of origin and so forth. Senator Levin. I wish you would just try to give me the bottom line. You were six times less likely to be inspected after you are validated. Before you are validated but after you are certified, is that about three times less likely, would you say? Mr. Bonner. I can't really give you an answer. We just implemented this in the end of April and we are going to need to see how it works out. I believe it will be that there will be some degree of increased inspections over what it had been before for just being certified, and it may well be that there is some degree of increased benefits if we have actually validated the C-TPAT member. Senator Levin. In terms of the number of containers coming into the country, as I understand the figures, roughly 9 million come by sea, 8 million by truck, and 6 million by rail. Does that sound about right? Mr. Bonner. Well, it is 11 million by truck. Seven million come across the Canadian border. It is between 9 and 10 million, last year, sea containers. Senator Levin. OK. Mr. Bonner. That has actually gone up about--almost 50 percent since 2001---- Senator Lautenberg. That is across the entire country? Mr. Bonner. Across the entire country. Senator Levin. So we have more coming in by truck than we do by sea? Mr. Bonner. That is correct. Senator Levin. And we have about 6 million by rail, is that about right? Mr. Bonner. That is about right. I don't have that figure before me, but there are--we do get rail cars from both Mexico and Canada, as you know, Senator. Senator Levin. The program applies to all these containers? Mr. Bonner. The C-TPAT program, yes, it does. Senator Levin. Now, in terms of the--you said you can't-- you do the C-TPAT by agreement with the importers, basically, and that we are able to reach back into the supply chain in ways you could not do but for that voluntary agreement with the importers, is that basically what you said? Mr. Bonner. In essence, that is right. Senator Levin. I am not suggesting we change our approach, but isn't it true that we could simply say, unless you can certify to us that you have reached back, you cannot import? Why do you just assume that we cannot enforce our rules without an agreement on the part of importers? That is a lot better way to do it, I am not arguing with that. But I am just saying the premise that you establish here, it seems to me is one I want to challenge. Mr. Bonner. Here is the problem. Ultimately, it is--you are building in the critical foreign security--security is actually at the foreign supplier where the container is actually being loaded or stuffed. That foreign supplier, we don't have any regulatory power over that foreign supplier. Senator Levin. Correct. Mr. Bonner. As I was discussing this, and this goes back literally to October or November 2001, what do we do under this circumstance? I mean, we are going to increase security in terms of things moving through our ports, but is there a way to extend the border out and could we do this in partnership? I will say this. It is very difficult to think of a regulatory regime that is enforceable against the foreign supplier. So you have to literally go through the U.S. importer---- Senator Levin. That is not my question. My question is, you could require a certification of the importer that certain protective actions have been taken by that importer, couldn't you? Mr. Bonner. Well, yes, you could, I think, but some importers would say--if you are trying to do this by regulation, some importers will say, well, look, we can't do that. We don't have leverage over our foreign suppliers. Our foreign supplier is a big distributor in China or Malaysia and we don't have that leverage. Senator Levin. You have huge leverage over them. Unless we can certify to the U.S. Customs, we ain't buying your stuff. That is huge leverage. I just want to challenge your statement, because it seems to me it could lead to some actions or inactions on our part which I won't accept. Now, I want to do it by partnership. I would rather do it your way. But I don't want to accept the premise that you could not require an importer to certify that he has actually achieved that same level of protection through agreement with whoever his supplier is that you can do in a voluntary way. I will leave it at that. I just want to tell you I challenge your premise. Mr. Bonner. If you just, though, if you think about it, if you are trying to regulate, you are telling every U.S. importer, you must do this and you must establish this level of supply chain security, and there are companies, small companies---- Senator Levin. No, we are not saying you must---- Mr. Bonner [continuing]. Small importers that can't do that, and, therefore, can't participate in C-TPAT, either, because they are not able to do the security of the supply chain that is necessary. Senator Levin. So it is a practical way to do it. It is the better way to do it. I am just saying you are not limited to do that, and to suggest that our government is limited in that way, it seems to me, is giving away much too much. We someday may have to require certification of certain things to protect our borders which does not depend upon a voluntary agreement but says, unless you certify that, you cannot bring in materials. Let me leave it at that---- Mr. Bonner. I take your point. I still think, overall, a voluntary partnership approach made a lot of sense at the time---- Senator Levin. I agree with that. Mr. Bonner [continuing]. This is November 2001. I still think it makes a lot of sense. Senator Levin. I do, too. I am not challenging your effort. I think it is the right way to go. You have indicated that all of the high-risk cargoes are inspected either overseas or here, that is mandatory, is that correct? Mr. Bonner. Yes. I probably should define high-risk, but yes. Senator Levin. Yes, but, as you define it, because there was an article in the paper that suggested that you are not quite that confident that those inspections take place at one point or another. It was a New York Times article, I believe, that was either today or yesterday which said that Customs officials would not provide documentation to show that all the high-risk containers not inspected in foreign ports were checked once they arrived in the United States, but they said they were reasonably confident the checks had been made. Is that a more accurate way to state it, or are you more confident than reasonably confident? Mr. Bonner. Let me tell you my view on it, the reason I do have some confidence that the high-risk containers do get a security inspection, and that is that I am going to define high-risk container--there are different ways of defining it-- -- Senator Levin. I understand. Mr. Bonner [continuing]. But I am just going to define it right now as this is the rough cut through our Automated Targeting System at the National Targeting Center that says this container has a threshold scoring of 190 or above. Now, by the way, you can do further analysis as to whether that is high-risk or not, but we have essentially said and implemented, and this goes back to the summer of 2002, we basically said to our ports of arrival, and that is the Port of Newark and that is the Port of Los Angeles, that every container that scores over 190 will be inspected at the port of arrival in the United States unless it has, in fact, had a security inspection at a CSI port overseas. In other words, we are not requiring it be done twice if, in fact, that CSI inspection has taken place. But that is why I can say with a fair degree of confidence that every container that scores above 190 and is defined as high-risk for the terrorist threat in that way is going to be screened, if not at CSI ports, and we are still trying to push that number up, but is going to get an inspection on arrival, and that is a defense in depth. We have extended our border out and we are trying to get the extended border closer to what we do on arrival. But that is why I think I can say with some confidence that every high-risk container defined that way does get an inspection, either at CSI ports outbound or on arrival in the United States. Senator Levin. That is a little more assuring than reasonably confident, as reported in yesterday's New York Times. That is all I am saying. I am glad to hear it. You are more confident than reasonably confident. I am glad you are. I hope you are right. I will just wind up by saying I am out of time, so we can't get into this trash issue, but I have looked at those X-rays. Mr. Bonner. We have talked about that before and---- Senator Levin. We are going to have to find a way, one way or another, because it is unacceptable to have thousands of these trucks coming in. It is all anomalous cargo. You can't see it on an X-ray. One way or another, we are going to protect--we have to find a way to protect our people. Mr. Bonner. As you know from our conversations, I don't think we should be--we shouldn't have trash coming in from Canada into the United States, but I cannot---- Senator Levin. Amen. Mr. Bonner [continuing]. I cannot prohibit it. I am going to need some statutory authority to say that is prohibited material. Senator Levin. If you can't reasonably assure us the way you just did on this other cargo, if you can't reasonably assure us through an X-ray, and you sure can't because it is all anomalous, then you have to tell them, hey, after this point, no more trash. Mr. Bonner. We are running it all through radiation detection, too, to let you know, but---- Senator Levin. I am not talking radiation. Mr. Bonner. I know. We will talk about that some more. Senator Levin. We need your help on that. Senator Coleman. Thank you, Senator Levin. Senator Collins. Chairman Collins. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Commissioner, I want to follow up on the issue that Senator Levin just raised about containers that appear to be high-risk and have been referred to host government officials for inspection. In its report, GAO found that since the CSI program started, 28 percent of the suspect containers referred to host government officials for inspection were not, in fact, inspected for a variety of reasons. But more recently, GAO notes that the percentage of inspections has gone up to 93 percent, so we clearly are getting more cooperation from the host governments which is very important. One of the reasons that containers might not be inspected cited by the GAO and noted in the New York Times story yesterday, is they have already been loaded and are on their way to our shores. That creates the worst-case scenario. So I want to follow up on your exchange with Senator Levin. Are you saying that when you have a high-risk container that has been targeted for inspection but was not inspected by the host government, it is now inspected upon arrival? Mr. Bonner. Yes, I am saying that. I am making an assumption that it was targeted because it had a risk targeting score for the terrorism threat of 190 or above, and I will say in each and every case--now, I mean, I can't sit here and say that somebody didn't fail in their job in some way. But if you looked at, for example, just taking last month, April, there were--the total number of containers that scored over 190 was about 32,000, and 99.9 percent of those containers were inspected on arrival. So I do have a pretty high degree of confidence that if has been loaded and we deemed it as a high- risk, that we would get it on arrival. Now, we are getting better, too, with the host nation in terms of getting information quicker so that we are reducing even that small percentage, which I think was not great, but that small percentage of containers that had been loaded. And I want to point out one other thing that is important, I think, in just thinking about this issue, and that is if we have specific intelligence about a container or there is just enough risk factors that we deem it to be totally high-risk, I have no-load authority, and we have used that sparingly, but that is the authority to tell the carrier, don't load that container or unload it at that seaport. Now, we use that very sparingly because we don't want to, frankly, sour the relationship with the host nations which are cooperating with us in the Container Security Initiative unless we really have to. Chairman Collins. It does look like there has been considerable progress in that area. Is it feasible to inspect en route, to have the Coast Guard or Customs officials go out? The reason that I ask is, obviously, having the inspection occur in the host country is the best solution. Having it occur once it gets to our shores could in some cases be too late. The whole idea is to keep the danger away from our shores. Is it feasible to do an inspection en route? Mr. Bonner. It is difficult, but we have done it with the U.S. Coast Guard. The Coast Guard boards. It has taken Customs and Border Protection inspectors on board with it because we are concerned about a particular container before it actually is allowed to come into port. Now, again, that has been relatively rare we have done that, but we have done it when there was tactical intelligence that indicated that there might be a terrorist threat with respect to containers on board a vessel that make those--not just above 190 here, but those that we are really concerned about. So it is possible to do it. It is difficult, though, because if you have a container ship with 3,000 containers stacked on top of each other, it is very difficult to get access, to be able to open it. We can't run it through X-ray scanning machines and so forth. So it is difficult. We have done it. To me, that would not be the preferred solution. You are right. It is better to identify this container and have that security inspection done before it leaves the foreign port, before it goes on board that vessel. But we can do it. We have done it on a relatively few occasions. Chairman Collins. Of course, our greatest fear is that a cargo container would be used to smuggle weapons of mass destruction into the United States, and some experts have predicted an attempted terrorist nuclear strike within the next decade. That is obviously a horrible scenario, but one that we need to try to defend against. For that reason, CBP has been deploying, I understand, radiation portal monitors at U.S. seaports. I understand, however, that these portals are deployed at the exit gates of our seaports, yet containers may sit at a port for as long as 5 to 7 days before they are screened for radiation. We know that many of our major seaports are located in heavily populated areas--New York, Los Angeles--that clearly could be targets. I am concerned that we don't do the screening immediately upon arrival as opposed to at the exit gates. Is this an issue you have looked at? Mr. Bonner. We have looked at it. I couldn't agree with you more. There are some difficulties in how do you do this. First of all, the thing I would like to do, and we are joining very closely now with the Department of Energy and have over the past year or so, is to make sure that their megaports program, where they have radiation portal monitors and funding to put these in foreign seaports, is conjoined with our CSI ports. And as we expand CSI ports, we not only have the large- scale X-ray machines, which, by the way, countries that want to be in CSI, they either use their own equipment--they already had it or they have purchased it. We do not purchase it for them. But we would like to also get the radiation portal monitors overseas, at least every container that we deem to be high-risk after analysis by our CSI team goes through not just large- scale X-ray imaging, but a radiation portal monitor. Right now, it goes through some X-ray screening, but it is not as good as a portal monitor. Now, we have also looked at this issue of how do you do this as containers are being offloaded, and we have been looking at--unsuccessfully, I will tell you, so far--attempting to get some radiation detection on the crane, literally, the gantry that loads and unloads containers, so that as you are unloading the container, you would get a determination whether it is reading radiation. As you know, most of these radiation reads, we know from our portal monitors that we have in place, are innocuous material, but you compare it with the manifest and so on. So far, that hasn't worked out so well, and we think that, nonetheless, we have to do the best we can here in terms of being able to screen cargo containers for radiation emissions and then resolving whether that is something of concern or, as it usually turns out to be the case, not of concern. So far, the best positioning we have for ports of arrival is as those containers are being essentially put on board trucks and moving out of the seaport. I wish there was a better solution. We sure as heck have looked at this. And I invite anybody here who has a better answer, tell us, because we are right in the process right now of rolling out the radiation portal monitors to our seaports around the country, we have many of the major terminals of the Port of New York, which is mainly in New Jersey, as well as the Port of Oakland and several other ports. So if there is a better solution, we are looking hard at it, but that is the best one we have right now. Chairman Collins. That is a challenge. I am very intrigued by the idea of having the monitor built into the crane somehow. That really sounds very interesting. As I understand it, the Department of Energy has deployed portals in only two foreign seaports at this point, is that correct? Mr. Bonner. That is my understanding, Port Piraeus--we have CSI in Piraeus, as well--and Port of Rotterdam. We are also on CSI there. But we are working with them so they will work with us in concert here, and they are committed to doing this at the Department of Energy so that we expand the radiation portal to the other 34 CSI ports as well as the new CSI ports that we will be expanding to. Chairman Collins. Is this a matter of insufficient resources to pay for these monitors to be deployed, or is it a lack of cooperation from the host countries, or is there some other reason? Two is not very many. Mr. Bonner. No. You are going to have to ask the people at the--this is the second line of defense--mega ports initiative at the Department of Energy. I don't feel comfortable telling you. But we have offered and they have accepted that every CSI port we go to to implement CSI, that they will essentially be joined at the hip with us moving forward now, and that is very important. And they do have funding. Ironically, I suppose, in some ways, they have funding to put radiation portal monitors at overseas ports. We don't have that funding. We don't have enough funding to totally complete our implementation plan for radiation portal monitors at our own seaports and land border crossings and the like. But we are making good progress with the funding that we have. Chairman Collins. Thank you for that information and thank you for your good work. Mr. Bonner. Thank you. Senator Coleman. Thank you, Senator Collins. Senator Lautenberg. Senator Lautenberg. Thanks, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Bonner, you agreed to the fact that there were some 9 million-plus containers that come here each year. I don't know whether you are aware of it, but the New Jersey-New York port takes almost 30 percent of those containers each year. Two- point-six million out of 9 million is almost 30 percent, right? And so it is a very high volume that reaches our shore, and it has been noted by several of the other Senators that these ports are located typically in very highly populated, densely populated places. Am I correct with my arithmetic? Mr. Bonner. I know that the Port of New York-New Jersey is the second largest in terms of the movement of cargo containers after the port of L.A.-Long Beach. I would say that is in the ballpark. Senator Lautenberg. OK. Mr. Bonner. It is 2 or 3 million containers a year that come into the Port of New York. Senator Lautenberg. I don't want a long discussion about arithmetic. It is or it is not. Mr. Bonner. I don't have the exact number, but that is about right. Senator Lautenberg. Thank you. But the volume is what I think deserves some attention in terms of grants that are given for port security. Mr. Chairman, we have 30 percent of the containers coming into a very highly, densely populated area. It is said that the distance between Newark Liberty Airport and the Port of New York-New Jersey is the most dangerous two miles for terrorist targeting in the country and there is something there that we really have to work on. Now, what I don't understand, could you explain just this one chart that I looked at, CSI ports, it is headed, Hong Kong, Yokohama, and Le Havre. It says, percentage of exams requested that were actually conducted---- Senator Coleman. I think it is Exhibit 1.\1\ We have it set up, Senator Lautenberg. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- \1\ See Exhibit No. 1 which appears in the Appendix on page 108. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Senator Lautenberg. Thanks. So the requests are made by us, I assume, Mr. Bonner, and it says Le Havre, and I picked on Le Havre particularly because it was a place I landed during World War II and know that it was a very active harbor. But I also know that Le Havre and France have had serious problems with immigration, both legal and illegal, from North Africa, where there are lots of people who are not so friendly to us. So is the 29.61 percent the number of times that we said, we want to inspect these cargoes, and was it denied, or that they were actually conducted from the total volume of cargo that was leaving there? Is that what that is? Mr. Bonner. Well, it could be a number of reasons for it, but I am troubled by that, the fact that usually most of these CSI ports, our requests are honored 90 percent or more of the time, and at Le Havre, that is troubling that it is so low. Senator Lautenberg. I agree. Mr. Bonner. And it is one of the most--it does stand out. It is something, by the way, we are continuously evaluating and working with the French customs authorities, and all other CSI ports, for that matter, to increase the percentage of requests that are honored, because that is the whole point of CSI. If they are not---- Senator Lautenberg. And it ranks comparative to Hong Kong and Yokohama--these are both very active ports--Le Havre has substantially more cargo than Yokohama and yet the inspections are a very low percentage of the high-risk suspected cargo. So it is a matter of concern. One of the things that also stands high in my mind, and that is when we look at countries like Afghanistan, Egypt, Libya, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, why aren't we focusing our efforts on cargo originating in countries that pose some real threat? And again, we would have to expand our CSI initiative. Mr. Bonner. Maybe I could put my map board on here, but that is a good question and let me just say the reason that we put CSI--there are a number of reasons, but CSI is at ports, seaports through which most of, let us say, the cargo shipments from Port Saiid, Egypt, move through, are offloaded by feeder ships onto ports in Italy, for example, where we do have CSI. Most of the--not 100 percent, but most of the shipments, let us say, out of Pakistan move through by feeder ship to Singapore, are offloaded--or other ports in Asia--are offloaded, so we are able to inspect a lot of the cargo containers that are coming from what I would call the most high-risk areas in terms of presence of potential terrorists. Senator Lautenberg. And it would be unreasonable, wouldn't it, to say that every piece of cargo that leaves there has to go through some other port. That would be an awful lot of trouble in terms of cargo delay and sending economic opportunity to other ports. But the question was asked by Senator Collins about the inspections by Coast Guard. We have a lot of lightering of cargo in, let us say, the Port of New York-New Jersey. At that point in time, would it be possible for either Customs or Coast Guard to get to those places, especially if those ships come from some of these ports, and take a look around? There is equipment that is fairly mobile that would give you some indication of what might be a threat in one of those containers. Mr. Bonner. We would do it, if there were specific intelligence or just the risk factors were sufficient. We would figure out a way to do it. It is hard to do even on a lighter, by the way, because you want to run it through large-scale X- ray scanning machines. You can run it through radiation detection, to some extent, not the monitors, but you can have radiation detection devices. But if I could go back, you made an interesting point. The part of CSI, thinking about what it has done, it is not just all about how many containers get inspected. We actually have the capability right now because we have built out the Container Security Initiative that if there were time of stress where we elevated the threat level, we have the possibility right now with relatively minimal disruption to require every container coming from high-risk areas to come through, to be offloaded at a CSI port before it comes to the United States. Most of them do already, but we have that ability. And think of CSI that way, because it is designed to be essentially the insurance policy to keep the flow of trade moving, particularly if there is a terrorist attack or we move to, based upon intelligence, to a much higher threat level than we are at today. So that is exactly it. Everything from, potentially from--and I won't name the country here, but may have to go through one of these CSI ports if it is coming to the United States. Senator Lautenberg. Mr. Chairman, I think it would be of interest to get an update on this program to see whether, in fact, we have expanded the program and to say whether you are short of personnel. Do you have enough people to do all these jobs? Mr. Bonner. Well, I heard--I can't remember, it might have been you, Senator Lautenberg, but maybe it was Mr. Akaka, but just the cost--I know the cost seems a lot to place people overseas, and it does cost more. The rule of thumb to me was two times as much, but I will have to look at those costs. But we only have about 200 people overseas for CSI, and those are our targeters and those are the people that are getting additional information and intelligence, in some cases, from our host nation counterparts, and those are people whose job is to also essentially jawbone our host nation to make sure that it is inspecting the containers that are high-risk unless we have been assured, based upon information that the host nation has been able to give to us. Senator Lautenberg. I don't mean to cut you off, but time is running here and I don't have much left. You provoked a question in my mind when you said something about the equipment in those countries that are doing the inspections and implied that you weren't sure what kind of equipment it was. Do we have a standard that we send to these countries to say, listen, this is the least effective equipment that you can use that can get certification that we will pass? Mr. Bonner. I have seen in many cases the X-ray imaging equipment that these countries have, and I will tell you, with one exception, and I won't name the country, but with one exception, the large-scale X-ray imaging equipment that the CSI countries are actually using for these outbound inspections equals or exceeds what we have and what we use in the United States. So I am not against, by the way, having a standard on this. I know that is a recommendation of the GAO. But it is not just about penetrating power. It is also about the mobility of the equipment and that sort of thing. It is a combination of factors. But I am just saying, I have looked at their machines that---- Senator Lautenberg. But I thought in your response to Senator Levin that there was a suggestion that we didn't know in each case what kind of equipment or whether the equipment was sufficient to give us any security. Mr. Bonner. We know exactly what the equipment is. We have assessed---- Senator Lautenberg. Every country? Mr. Bonner. But we haven't said that you have to meet these precise standards or specification. We know that in every country, it equals or exceeds what we have in terms of our own NII equipment---- Senator Lautenberg. So if ours is poor, theirs is poor? Mr. Bonner. Except for one, and we are working on that country. But they are paying for the equipment. We are not buying it for them. So there is a certain amount of chutzpah to say, you have to do X, Y, and Z, particularly if the equipment--and as I say, I personally examined--not that I am the expert here, but our teams that go over for CSI examine and make an assessment---- Senator Lautenberg. I wouldn't think it was too nervy to say, what kind of stuff have you got? If you would, Mr. Chairman, the country unnamed in public here, if it could be named under an executive commitment from the Chairman, I would like to know which of the countries---- Mr. Bonner. I will---- Senator Coleman. I share that concern and we would like to get that information, Commissioner. Senator Lautenberg. Thanks very much. Thank you, Mr. Bonner. Senator Coleman. Just to follow up on Senator Lautenberg's question about standardized equipment, I understand that there isn't a standard, but your testimony is that with the exception of one country, the standards equal or exceed ours. First, my concern is that this program, CSI, is only in the end as good as its weakest link. If there is a weak link, we could pay a price for that. As I understand from reports that I have read, the equipment that may meet or exceed ours are the gamma imagers, but in terms of radiation portal monitors, are there any standards that you are aware of? Mr. Bonner. Well, on the radiation portal monitors, I addressed that. What we have done and what we need to do is to link the Department of Energy, their funding for radiation portal monitors overseas. This is their megaports initiative with CSI. We have met with the Department of Energy a number of times. They are committed to doing this and we are doing it. And so that would be the radiation portal monitors, then, as we join them into the array of detection technology for at CSI ports, particularly for potentially high-risk containers. Those portal monitors are essentially the type of radiation portal monitors that we are deploying. We have deployed almost 500 of them now to our land border ports of entry and we are making great progress with our seaports. That is the best available technology there is in terms of being highly sensitive to be able to detect against even potentially nuclear devices and/or materials that could be used to make nuclear devices. We are working, by the way, on some advanced technology which we hope to have within about a year or so. It is essentially highly sensitive radiation portal monitors that can detect even fairly low energy emissions of both gamma and neutrons. Senator Coleman. I understand that there are supposed to be minimum standards--supposed to be--and I think the information we got from the agency, that a number of items a prospective CSI port must commit to, ability of their customs to inspect cargo exiting or transiting their country, access to and use of the non-intrusive inspection equipment, willingness to share trade data and intelligence. I believe the GAO report, and I know that this Subcommittee's investigation found several countries not complying with some of these minimal standards, instances where countries were unwilling or unable to share intelligence, did not have the non-intrusive equipment or were using substandard equipment, and some lacked the authority to search U.S.-bound cargo that was transiting their ports. Would you disagree with that assessment? Mr. Bonner. As broadly as you put it, there are issues that we are working with with various countries. Not all of them, some of them have been extremely responsive and receptive, but there are some situations where they have agreed to acquire NII equipment but they haven't--we have seen the purchase order, their government is buying it, but they don't have it there. But there is NII equipment. In some cases, we loan them NII equipment for some developing countries. So you can't be in CSI. It is not operational unless you have the large-scale X-ray imaging equipment. So all of them have it. Now, I mentioned the one country that we are--their equipment that they had purchased isn't where we want it to be and we are working with that country to upgrade its NII equipment. Senator Coleman. CBP enters into declarations of principle with the host country? Shouldn't you incorporate minimal standards into these declaration of principles. And if they are not going to share or can't share intelligence or they don't have the equipment, simply say that they are not a CSI operation. Otherwise, how do we have any assurance that we are getting adequate inspections if you don't have these kind of uniform standards that are critical? Mr. Bonner. We definitely need the uniform standards. I totally agree with that principle. But the way we do it, I believe, is we work with the host nation, but if we can't resolve an issue, we withdraw CSI. And CSI is very important economically to the countries that have implemented CSI because they are protecting their trade lanes, literally, between their foreign seaports, whether that is Rotterdam or Singapore, and the United States, and they understand that. So I believe we can get--some of these CSI ports we just got online in the last 2 months, in Dubai and Shanghai. Some of them, we have had for a while. But we work very actively with the host nation, and ultimately, we may clear what it is that they need to do to be a CSI partner with us. And I believe we can get there. But again, it is a matter of dialogue. It is a matter of working with many different foreign governments and foreign customs administrations. So I believe we are making good progress here. We do regularly evaluate where we are with respect to each one of these CSI ports through our management team here at Customs and Border Protection headquarters. I am not disagreeing with some of the conclusions there. They are probably right. Some of them, we have been able to correct. Some of them, we are moving forward on. Some of them, as Senator Lautenberg pointed out with respect to Le Havre, even though France was the third country to sign a CSI agreement, a declaration of principles with us, some of them are not sufficiently honoring our request to inspect, do a security inspection of high-risk containers before they leave foreign seaports. We work that number up, but if it doesn't ultimately get to where it needs to be, then, of course, they are not meeting the CSI commitment and we will have no choice but to--and we are reluctant to do this, but we will essentially withdraw and we will not have that port as a CSI port unless they are meeting their commitments. Senator Coleman. And you have made it clear in your testimony that there is a significant economic advantage for these countries to have a CSI port. I suggest, Commissioner, we can do better than making it clear. We can make it mandatory. We can say, this is what we are going to require, or you are not going to get the economic benefit. Mr. Bonner. Yes. We could go back on that. We wanted the declaration of principles to be the principles of CSI and not get into all of the specific details, let us say standards and that sort of thing. There was a reason for that. There were two reasons for it. One is Circular 175 authority, and that is once you say it is a formal agreement, we have to go through the State Department. It takes a lot longer to even get an agreement in place. Second, when you start negotiating all of the specific terms with countries--we tell them exactly what is expected, by the way. When you start negotiating it and trying to put that in a written, let us say, agreement, it takes--it would have taken a lot, lot longer. Now, it might well be that at this point, we can circle back and say we need to definitize those commitments better, whether that is through an agreement, whether that is through some side protocol for the declaration of principles. And it also has to be the same for every country that is participating in CSI. Senator Coleman. And the concern is if it isn't the same, you are really getting varying degrees of reliability on these inspections. Mr. Bonner. Well, if you don't have the right--let us say the one country which its equipment may not be all we would like it to be, if we are not satisfied with the X-ray scan or image of the container, and based upon all of our information we think it is a high-risk container, we are not able to rule it out, we will ask for physical inspection, and we do and we get physical inspections. So there is--again, that is more time consuming, more laborious, and the host nation is doing it. But we get physical inspections when there is an anomaly or when--which is in a relatively small percentage of the containers that are run through X-rays--or if you don't have an adequate X-ray machine, then we--the recourse is to do an actual physical inspection to make sure that the container does not contain a terrorist weapon. Senator Coleman. If we could get Exhibit 1,\1\ the exhibit with Yokohama and Le Havre and the other ports. Just two questions regarding that. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- \1\ See Exhibit No. 1 which appears in the Appendix on page 108. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- The green, the higher risk, the number for Hong Kong being 15,000, a little over 15,000, Le Havre, 4,259. Is your testimony that those that are high-risk that every one of those 15,129 containers are checked in this country, if not inspected abroad. Mr. Bonner. At least on arrival, if they haven't been security inspected at a CSI port. And, the high-risk, the thing about talking about CSI, we didn't start off with CSI. We actually started off with saying, let us have an automated system that uses strategic intelligence for purposes of what containers we should inspect at our ports of entry, and let us do it on a national basis and let us just say that if something scores above a certain level, that is going to give us at least a broad enough concern that we want it inspected on arrival. That is what we did first. Then we expanded our border out with CSI. But, yes, that is a very high number because Hong Kong is a port, the largest port in the world. It is responsible for shipping 10 percent of all of those 9 million containers to the United States come from or through the Port of Hong Kong. So it has a huge number of containers and it has a huge volume. The CSI team there made 1,086 requests of Hong Kong Customs and Excise that they do a security inspection. I am not totally happy with that number, but 832 times out of roughly a thousand, they did, so 80 percent. We would like to get that higher. Our CSI management team, some of whom are behind me right now, work to push that number up so that our request, when we say we are sufficiently concerned about this container that we want it inspected, is closer to 100 percent. I mean, that is what we are looking for. There will always be some reasons why we probably won't reach 100 percent, but---- Senator Coleman. Let me ask another question about the high-risk containers that are supposed to be checked here. Our investigators looking into that, we were not able to either find a paper trail or anything to actually confirm that they were inspected here. And so I would ask if you would supply that to this Subcommittee. How are you sure that, in fact, those that are identified as high-risk are, in fact, inspected when they arrive here? Mr. Bonner. Well, I am assured because--as assured as one can be, as the Commissioner, because we have mandated that at our ports of arrival, that every container that scores above 190 will be inspected, and we started that essentially in about the summer of 2002. So if we can't get it over there--and this is before we had a single CSI port. The first CSI port came online in September 2002, and that was Rotterdam. So we started that program, and we never said with CSI, look, we are using host nations' equipment, we are using the host nations' resources, we are kibitzing whether we think that their X-ray scan shows an anomaly or not. We have never said that we are going to get total equilibrium. By the way, I would like to see that, where we are actually getting everything above 190 that would be given a security inspection overseas at a CSI port. But what we have said is after getting the 190, we have our targeters there. We do further analysis. We do get information, by the way, in many instances. I am not saying it is perfect in every country, but we do get information that provides us additional input as to whether a container is a potential risk or it is not a potential risk. Sometimes this is just the--it is the customs authority getting on the phone and saying, well, we have a freight forwarder here. Who is the real shipper? Who is the real party and interest, that sort of thing, just getting additional information to make a more--a better assessment of what is the highest risk, basically, and then making that request to the host nation that would do it. Now, if we need to at time of stress, this system is in place. It is not like we have to build it. We don't have to build the cockpit doors here. These are the cockpit doors for maritime security. It is there. If we have a time of stress, we can increase the level of our request and require and demand, for the reasons you are saying. And what is our ultimate lever here? You don't do it, the Commissioner is exercising no-load authority. It is telling the carrier they cannot put that container on board the vessel. So we have a way of ratcheting this up, particularly at a time of stress. So view it as a security system or a piece of an overall security system---- Senator Coleman. And time of stress, what do you mean by time of stress? Mr. Bonner. By time of stress, I mean there is a terrorist attack that might have been using the maritime cargo system in some way. There is significant intelligence that indicates that there is a significantly high risk of terrorist exploitation of a, let us say, the Trojan Horse, an oceangoing cargo container to carry a weapons of mass destruction. That is a time of higher stress, and we now can ratchet the system up or we can just say, you don't do it. The containers are staying at the CSI port. They are not getting loaded. So that is what I mean. It is a system that is--it does what it does right now, and it does add security right now because it has the capability of detecting and, therefore, preventing and deterring, I believe, global terrorists, al Qaeda, from exploiting this system. It has some deterrent effect. But it is also a system that can be elevated when we need to do so. Senator Coleman. I would still maintain that we have a system with some holes in it. Mr. Bonner. I wouldn't want to--I don't rely totally on CSI. That is why we have a layered and a number of initiatives that are--that in combination give us greater assurance. But if the--nobody can say that you can develop a foolproof system, or at least a foolproof system that would not, in essence, choke off and stave off the flow of legitimate trade and do enormous harm to our economy. So whatever system we have to put into place, there is some balancing we have to do and should do to protect, as I have said, the American livelihoods as well as American lives. You have to balance that out as you do it. But part of that is extended border strategy, and CSI and C-TPAT are very much two of our important initiatives in terms of extending our zone of security beyond our little ports of entry and our border. Senator Coleman. Senator Carper. Senator Carper. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and Mr. Bonner, welcome. Looking around at these empty seats, you wonder where everybody is. We all have other hearings that we are trying to get to, as well. I have two others and I apologize for not being here to hear all of your testimony. Let me start by just asking, what are some of the possible consequences of our not doing a good enough job to reduce the security threats that our Nation faces that flow through our ports? What are the possible consequences of our not doing a good job? Mr. Bonner. They are great. A number of people, like Steve Flynn, who is going to testify for this Subcommittee this morning, who I talked to shortly after September 11, have outlined the--if there is a terrorist incident or a terrorist attack that utilizes, let us say, an oceangoing cargo container and we have no security system in place, the consequence was clear, and that is the whole system shuts down. It freezes, which would very likely send the U.S. economy in a tailspin and bring the rest of the world economy down with it. So those are huge consequences, no doubt about it. The question is, how do you build, and that is the question I faced shortly--starting on the morning of September 11 and September 12, is how we would do this--how could we best do this. We are not complete yet, but how could we best do this in terms of building out a strategy that involves a number of initiatives, not just the two we are talking about today, to make it far more difficult, far less likely that this system can be exploited. I don't think there is a perfect system that I am aware of. If somebody can devise the perfect system for providing the absolute security in terms of the movement of goods and cargo and at the same time do that without essentially choking off the flow of trade and the economic consequences of that, I am here to learn and listen, as I have been all along. But we have taken steps that are really some revolutionary initiatives. Senator Carper. Let me just follow things here. Mr. Bonner. Yes. Senator Carper. What are some of the things that you think we are really doing well? Mr. Bonner. Well, I think the things that we are--first of all, I would say I take it in layers. The very first thing we did was to say--and I said in talking to our people at U.S. Customs, we need to have some ability to sort out what may be a terrorist threat and what may not be a terrorist threat and we need to use advance information that we get electronically and automated targeting--we have to build our Automated Targeting Systems to do this. We have to establish a National Targeting Center so that we can--somebody said, well, you are only inspecting 5.5 percent. The question is, we are inspecting those not on a random basis, but on a basis using strategic intelligence as to what poses a higher risk. We know that some shipments pose no risk whatsoever. So how do you do that, though? How do you make that sort? And the very first thing we did, and I think we--by the way, it hadn't been done by any country before, but it was to build--essentially mandate that we had to get advance electronic information about every single cargo shipment to the United States. Then we had to evaluate that against our historic Customs database in terms of things that would be unusual or anomalous about shipments, build in strategic intelligence about where the threat is, what countries are more likely to be a threat than others, and risk manage the terrorism issue. So I think that is not done, either. I mean, that is an evolving thing. We literally meet daily to assess intelligence that might and many times does change our targeting rules or tweak up our targeting rules that we use to decide which containers to inspect or not. The next thing, though, we did was to say, look, we don't have enough people or detection technology at our ports of entry. That is why our ports of entry froze on September 12 and September 13, because if you increase inspections and you don't have enough people to keep all lanes open 24/7, you increase inspections, you don't have any detection technology so you are able to do it faster and speedier, your border is not going to be fluid. You are going to end up damaging the economy. And so we have added enormous detection equipment, both, by the way, large-scale X-ray imaging machines at the Northern border with Canada, at our major entry points, at our seaports, that didn't exist--weren't there before September 11. We have added radiation portal monitors. Ninety percent, right now, of the commercial trucks that come from Canada into the United States go through a highly sensitive radiation portal monitor. Eighty percent of all of the passenger vehicles, the SUVs, the cars, go through radiation portal monitors. We will have 100 percent of the Mexican border done this year with radiation portal monitors. We have about 50 percent now. We are rolling out to the seaports. Look, I think that is an important step. It is giving us a better way to detect against potential terrorist weapons, but to do it without laborious manual inspections of everything that would shut down our ports of entry, in my judgment. Now what we are talking about at this hearing is what have we done to extend our border outward and the two very key initiatives CSI and C-TPAT, that we put into place to do that. Senator Carper. That may fall into my last question, and that is what are some of the quick layers we need to do better where we could be helpful? Mr. Bonner. I think one area that we do need to be better, to do better, and we have been talking about it at this hearing, and this Subcommittee and GAO and the staff here have been helpful, but the C-TPAT program is a trust-but-verify program. We are doing better with our validations, or verifying that the supply chain security commitments have been met. But we understand and we agree that we need to do more and we need to do more more quickly, because we do give a certain level of benefit, even though we have reduced it somewhat, to companies that we think are reliable and trustworthy who are certified, that is to say, they have told us that they are doing what they say they are doing in terms of supply chain security. But that is an area, look, it needs improvement. We do need to--and by the way, we work on this literally every day. We do need to elevate, make sure that we are getting an even higher percentage of our request at CSI ports that are honored, that is to say that the security inspection is done by the host nation. We are above 90 percent now, I believe, or an average of 90 percent--don't hold me to the exact figure. But we have steadily moved that up. There are a few ports that are laggards and we need to--we are working to get that up, and our goal is to get pretty close to 100 percent, if not 100 percent, of all the requests of outbound containers unless there is some really good reason why it can't be done. Senator Carper. Is there anything in particular that Senator Coleman needs to be doing to help get this job done? [Laughter.] Mr. Bonner. Look, I think this Subcommittee and the Chairman have been very supportive, but that doesn't mean that--I do not believe in oversight. I think it is a healthy thing that questions get asked. I want to make sure that if it is put in the right context, that people understand what we did, why we did it when we did it, and how fast we needed to do it, but on the other hand, these initiatives, I think, are good initiatives, but they can be improved. We want to work with the Subcommittee and GAO to make sure that we implement what are, I think, certainly in the main very sound recommendations that are going to help us make these programs better. Senator Carper. Mr. Bonner, thanks very much, and Mr. Chairman, back to you. Senator Coleman. Thank, Senator Carper. Commissioner, I want to thank you for your appearance today. I do want to add my voice, by the way, to the concerns raised by Senator Levin regarding trash coming in from Michigan and the inability to sort out what is in there, whether there are things in there that could be very dangerous for all of us. So I would seek your personal assurance that you will work with this Subcommittee, work directly also with Senator Levin to see if we--not if we can, we have to improve that situation or fix it. Mr. Bonner. I agree. I share the concern, so I will work with you and Senator Levin on that issue. Senator Coleman. Thank you very much, Commissioner. Mr. Bonner. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Senator Coleman. Now, I would like to welcome our final witnesses for today's hearing, Richard M. Stana, Director of Homeland Security and Justice Team at the Government Accountability Office; Retired Coast Guard Commander Stephen E. Flynn, currently a Jeane J. Kirkpatrick Senior Fellow for National Security Studies at the Council on Foreign Relations in New York City; and Stewart Verdery, a principal with Mehlman Vogel Castagnetti, Incorporated, here in Washington, DC, and the former Assistant Secretary of Border and Transportation Security Policy for the Department of Homeland Security. Gentlemen, I appreciate your attendance at today's hearing and look forward to your testimony and perspective on CBP programs discussed here today as well as your recommendations for securing maritime trade and the global supply chain. As you are aware, pursuant to Rule 6, all witnesses who testify before this Subcommittee are required to be sworn in. I would ask you to please stand and raise your right hand. Do you swear the testimony you are about to give before this Subcommittee is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you, God? Mr. Stana. I do. Commander Flynn. I do. Mr. Verdery. I do. Senator Coleman. Please limit your opening statements to 10 minutes. Your entire statement will be entered into the record in its entirety. If you can follow the amber lights, you will know time is about up. Mr. Stana, we will start with you. We will then go to Commander Flynn and then we will go to Mr. Verdery. Mr. Stana. TESTIMONY OF RICHARD M. STANA,\1\ DIRECTOR, HOMELAND SECURITY AND JUSTICE ISSUES, U.S. GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY OFFICE Mr. Stana. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the opportunity to appear before you today to discuss the results of our reports on the C-TPAT and CSI programs.\2\ As you know, these programs are key elements of CBP's multi-layered strategy to address security concerns posed by the 9 million cargo containers that enter U.S. ports each year. Getting these programs right is important if we are to prevent terrorist weapons of mass destruction from entering the country. In my oral statement, I would like to highlight some key points we make in those reports, starting with the C-TPAT program. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- \1\ The prepared statement of Mr. Stana appears in the Appendix on page 66. \2\ See Exhibits No. 8 and 9, which appear in the Appendix on pages 115 and 154 respectively. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- C-TPAT membership is open to all components of the supply chain, including shippers and importers. In return for committing to making improvements to the security of their shipments, C-TPAT members receive a range of benefits which significantly reduce the level of scrutiny provided to their U.S.-bound shipments. These benefits can reduce or eliminate inspections at the ports and reduce wait times for members' shipments. While this arrangement seeks a reasonable balance between enforcement and trade facilitation, CBP's process for verifying the members' security arrangements has several problems that could increase security risks and throw the intended balance a bit off center. The first problem is that CBP awards the benefits which reduce or possibly eliminate the chances of detailed inspection at the ports without verifying that members have accurately reported their security measures and that they are effective. When companies apply for the program, CBP reviews their self- reported information about their security processes and checks their compliance and violation history in various databases. If it certifies a company after this indirect review, which it has in most cases, the benefits begin in a few weeks. Since the program's inception in 2002, CBP has directly reviewed and validated members' security procedures for only about 11 percent of the companies it has verified. More importantly, this figure goes down to 7 percent of the certified importers, and this group of members receives the greatest number of benefits. Moreover, it is unclear whether the other 89 percent could have serious vulnerabilities in their supply chain security and still be awarded program benefits. The second problem is that the validation process itself is flawed. For the 11 percent of companies that have been validated, CBP did not take a uniformly rigorous approach to reviewing the security procedures. Validations are supposed to verify that security measures are in place and are effective. However, CBP typically examines only a few facets of member security profiles and CBP and the company jointly agree on which security elements are reviewed and which locations are visited. In some cases, the majority of a company's overseas supply chain was not examined. Further, CBP had no written guidelines to indicate what scope of validation is adequate nor a baseline standard for what minimally constitutes a validation. C-TPAT program officials say that validation is not intended to be an audit of voluntary members, but the review that is done does not always add up to a reliable assessment of supply chain security. A third problem is that CBP has not determined which and how many members need to be validated and how many staff it needs to devote to this important activity to mitigate security risks. Although it initially intended to validate every C-TPAT member, CBP devoted an inadequate number of staff to do that. In August 2004, it began using what it calls a risk management approach to prioritizing which members should be validated first, as resources allow. CBP has established some selection criteria, such as import volume, value of imports, and method of transportation. While this is a step in the right direction, CBP still needs to determine the validations that are needed to help assure that members deserve the benefits that they are awarded. CBP is addressing the management weaknesses we noted in our July 2003 report, but it still has a ways to go in some areas. It hasn't yet completed a human capital plan and it hasn't developed its performance measures fully and importantly. Our review disclosed that its basic records management system was in such poor shape that we could not rely on it to gauge program operations or reconstruct management decisionmaking. Turning now to the CSI program, we found some positive factors that have affected CBP's ability to target and inspect high-risk cargo shipments at foreign ports before they leave for the United States. Among these are improved information sharing between CBP and foreign customs staffs and a heightened level of bilateral cooperation and international awareness of the need to secure the whole global shipping system. However, our work also disclosed several significant problems in the CSI program. One problem is that about a third of the cargo containers leaving CSI ports are not fully screened before they depart. This is because diplomatic and practical considerations made it very difficult to fully staff certain ports to the level prescribed in its staffing model. This has limited CBP's ability to screen all shipments leaving some CSI ports. Also, CSI hadn't yet determined which duties require an overseas presence, like coordinating with host government officials, and which duties could be performed in the United States, like reviewing manifests and databases. Given the diplomatic and logistical consideration and the high cost of stationing staff overseas, CBP needs to consider shifting work to domestic locations where feasible. Another problem is that not all cargo containers that are screened and referred to host nation customs officials for inspection are actually inspected before they leave the ports. Reasons for not inspecting these containers include the availability of host nation information that suggests that a container might not pose a security risk, the host nation's customs officials could not get to the container before it left the port, and in 1 percent of the cases, a host nation inspection denial, most often because the risk identified relates to a customs violation rather than a security concern. Our audit check of a 3-month period found that CBP can and does inspect most of these potentially risky containers when they arrive at U.S. ports. However, we were unable to verify that 7 percent of these containers that were referred for state-side inspection were actually inspected upon arrival. I think this might have been a point of confusion in Chairman Collins's note that 93 percent were inspected. That number was not the percentage inspected at CSI ports. That was the ones that were not inspected at CSI ports and referred to U.S. ports for inspection and documents show an inspection was done. As the Commissioner mentioned, CBP also has issued ``do not load'' orders in a few cases where it felt strongly about the need to inspect a container before it arrives at a U.S. port. A third problem involves the lack of minimum technical requirements for inspection equipment. Both CSI ports and U.S. ports rely heavily on non-intrusive inspection equipment, such as various types of X-ray and gamma ray imaging machines, to conduct inspections of cargo containers. Equipment used at various CSI ports can differ in their penetration capabilities, scan speed, and several other factors. Without minimum technical requirements, CBP has limited assurance that the equipment in use can successfully detect all weapons of mass destruction. It is important that CBP establish such requirements because non-intrusive inspections at a CSI port may be the only inspection some containers receive before they enter the interior of the country. Finally, CBP has made several improvements to the management of the program, but some problems still exist. To its credit, it has made some progress developing a strategic plan and performance measures, but further refinements are needed, particularly with developing meaningful measures of bilateral progress, terrorism deterrence, facilitating economic growth, and not disrupting the flow of trade. In closing, we made a number of recommendations aimed at addressing procedural, staffing, technical, and management problems we identified in the C-TPAT and CSI programs and we are encouraged by the constructive tone of CBP's response. It is very important to resolve these problems as soon as possible, because in CBP's multi-layered strategy for mitigating the risk of a weapons of mass destruction being transported in cargo containers, any weakness in one program or layer could affect the other layers. Mr. Chairman, this concludes my oral statement. I would be happy to answer any questions you or other Members of the Subcommittee may have. Senator Coleman. Thank you very much, Mr. Stana, and thank you for the good work being done by the staff and the folks at GAO on these reports. It has been very helpful and really outstanding, so I just want to say thanks. Commander Flynn. TESTIMONY OF STEPHEN E. FLYNN,\1\ COMMANDER, U.S. COAST GUARD (RET.), JEANE J. KIRKPATRICK SENIOR FELLOW IN NATIONAL SECURITY STUDIES, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS, NEW YORK, NEW YORK Commander Flynn. Good morning, Mr. Chairman. It is an honor to be here this morning to talk about this absolutely vital issue. I really want to commend you and the Subcommittee and the Committee for taking the container security issue on. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- \1\ The prepared statement of Commander Flynn appears in the Appendix on page 94. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have been somebody who has been working the container security issue for well over a decade. I want to start by saying this has been a longstanding vulnerability which went largely unrecognized prior to September 11. Even in the immediate aftermath of September 11, there was not a whole lot of activity happening across the U.S. Government, and I commend Commissioner Bonner for grabbing this issue when the Department of Transportation was otherwise focused on aviation and when the Coast Guard focused on ships and terminals but wouldn't go after the cargo issue. That leadership should be applauded. But, of course, where we are at right now is how to deal with an issue of enormous stakes, as we have been talking about, and how we can move this thing forward. What I would like to do in the few minutes I have here to provide oral testimony, is talk about the stakes, my view of the threat, and how I believe that C-TPAT is missing that threat in how it is currently operating and some suggestions, recommendations on how we could move forward. I think the best way to illustrate the stakes is to bifurcate them in two parts. One is that the container system, the intermodal transportation system, could be a conduit for a weapons of mass destruction. That is the one that consumes the bulk of our attention. The second issue is that the system itself is targeted, our trust in it erodes, and we stop using it for a while, and that could potentially lead to a global recession. Now, those stakes are, I would argue, national security imperatives of the first order. We have to deal with those two problem sets. But the best way to illustrate the second one is to visit a place like Hong Kong, the world's busiest container port in the world and the busiest terminal there is one called HIT Terminal. I was there a little over a year ago with the brilliant Malaysian who designed the operation of that terminal in 1992 to handle 3.1 million containers per year. Today, HIT Terminal is moving 5.5 million on the same footprint, on the same square acreage. That entails 10 Panamax or post-Panamax container ships being loaded simultaneously with 3 to 4 gantry cranes per ship, 35 moves per crane per hour, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year. He quipped that ``we no longer take off Chinese New Year.'' There is a 1-hour slippage time between ships. Now, when something goes wrong, such as the computers go down for 30 minutes, they will snarl truck traffic throughout the Port of Hong Kong. If it goes down for 2 hours, the trucks back up to the Chinese border. A little over a year and a half ago, they told me they had a typhoon come through where they had to shut the port down for 96 hours and they had a 140-mile backup of trucks. Between 16,000 and 18,000 trucks were queued up into the Chinese mainland. This is a system of incredible fragility, that if we have a disruptive event, the cascading effects are immediate and have significant economic repercussions. Now, it is also, therefore, a system that is very difficult to police. C-TPAT and CSI, of course, are designed to help advance that. The concepts of obviously targeting before it is loaded and getting the private sector to be a partner in this process makes sense. The critical issue that I have separated myself from where CBP is going with this is the notion that CBP can identify the right 5 percent and put this through the scrutiny of, to put it in the words of Commissioner Bonner, the 100 percent of the right 5 percent and presume the other 95 percent is low-risk and does not require inspection, whether overseas or even here at home. The central problem with this premise is that its view is that CBP has the ability to identify this high-risk universe, which would clearly require that CBP has a level of intelligence CBP does not have for this adversary. But second, it is that Customs believes that that universe where the terrorists are most likely to exploit would be the places that make up the shadow world CBP has learned about by failure for customs compliance in the past with trade laws and so forth, new players we don't know much about, so they have no track record, or they have had a history of smuggling before. The assumption is that a terrorist intending to bring in a weapon of mass destruction into the United States would gravitate towards the place where CBP already sees aberrant activity. That is what CBP targets. CBP inspects that, but assumes that terrorists wouldn't gravitate to legitimate companies. Where I would argue that this is wrong-minded is that in the case of a smuggler, it is an ongoing conspiracy. He has to be in the shadow world. He does not smuggle drugs in once, or he does not violate a revenue law once. He does it as an ongoing conspiracy. And if he goes to a legitimate company, they have controls and over time, and he is going to get caught. So that doesn't make any sense. That is a different problem from the lower-probability, high-consequence risk of a weapon of mass destruction being put in the United States with the goal of setting it off. In that situation, he is happy to succeed once, and it may have taken him 2 or 3 years to acquire the weapons. And so if he is somebody who is interested in carrying out the strike and CBP has already advertised up front that this legitimate company's 95 percent universe is viewed as low-risk and not subject to even the most cursory inspections, that is where he will focus his attention and he is going to take the time to do it. It turns out we are expecting too much from private sector companies to secure themselves with a fail-safe approach. Security in any private sector, if you talk to any chief security officers as I do, is much like other audit systems. You look for behavior over time. A good security system is one that has trip wires in the company to see whether or not the rules are being violated, has an investigatory arm to go out and check on the behavior, has a sanctions system for people caught violating the behavior that sets a deterrent across the company that employees should play by rules or you are going to have a consequence. You are going to go to jail or you are going to lose your job. It is a reactive system, in other words. No system is designed to protect the system for the first offense. Basically, bringing a weapon of mass destruction into the United States in the 95 percent universe CBP is defining as low-risk is as simple as a large payment to a truck driver to take an extra-long lunch break so as to gain access to that load, and you are on your way. So my concern is, not that we are getting companies to be a partner in this process, but that automatically creates this 95 percent low universe that doesn't warrant CBP checking. Even today, CBP focuses their attention on the high-risk universe of what CBP has found these problems. But I am very concerned about this 95 percent low-risk, and let me push it a step further. It is not only that I believe that it is the richest opportunity for somebody to get in once, into the United States to cause this event. I also believe that--and this takes a little more sophistication on their part--if the goal is mass economic disruption, the kinds of things Osama bin Laden has been talking about, they will want to strike that low-risk universe because it will then invalidate the regime, the entire--all containers will look at high-risk. So this leads us to rethink how we do inspections. Building on C-TPAT, building on CSI, which are minimal approaches, one is we have a greater assurance that companies are living up to the security obligations. We talked about the issue of jurisdiction today being a problem, it is clearly an issue. The lack of capacity and resources is an issue. We have ways to solve this. It is called third-party independent auditors, folks who are bonded to do this job, and you audit the auditors. It is the kind of format the Coast Guard uses routinely through outfits called the Professional Classification Society like the Bureau of Shipping. Resident technical experts go out and check, and the Coast Guard check, the checkers. Customs has been reluctant to go to this approach, and frankly, I don't understand why. It is a way you can get in overseas jurisdictions and you can have a validation process relatively quickly deployed. The second piece, though, is that we have to move to a system where we validate low-risk as low-risk. This is not a physical inspection of everything moving through. And I want to highlight specifically an initiative that I have been involved with in the Port of Hong Kong. The Port of Hong Kong today has an initiative where every truck coming into that busy terminal, I just described, is going through a radiation portal, a gamma imaging, an optical character recognition capturing the container number and putting it into a database. Right now, there are about 180,000 images sitting in this database since January 1. Nobody in the U.S. Government has asked them to do this. It is being funded by the Container Terminal Operators Association, and a U.S. company has been involved with it, SAIC, has put the equipment together. But nobody in the U.S. Government has told them that this is desirable behavior. Now, their interest in capturing this data up front is really threefold. One is the ability to deter for every box, that low-risk universe as well as what we would target as a high-risk universe, that it is going to get scanned and we are going to raise the risk of detection. If you spent 3 years getting a weapon of mass destruction, do you want to put it into a system where everything is getting scanned and hope it is not detected? The second piece that makes this an attractive approach is if, God forbid, something happens, they have the black box. They have the forensic tool that you can go back and say, it came from the Port of Hong Kong but it was specifically this supply chain. We may have missed it, but here is the tape. So we indemnify the port and we isolate the problem to a supply chain. That keeps the whole megaport from coming down. The kind of dump the concourse problem we see in airports. They can avoid that. And the last piece that has value for them is the current process of targeting, this typically requires a pulling of the box from the stack, dragging it over to the one inspection facility, putting it through the same screen that can be done up front, costing the importer the money to do it there, disrupting the terminal operation, and likely missing the voyage. And what they see as attractive about this is you can do that virtually and 99 percent of the time resolve the kind of questions that a CSI targeter would have by just looking at the image in real time, and you can look at them here in Virginia or you can look at them in Hong Kong or wherever you want to go. That system, we could migrate globally quickly, and it is not the end of all ends, but it is a layered approach in which we move away from saying there is a very finite universe of high-risk things and instead which we apply more broadly across. And so I would in conclusion here make the recommendation we need to be thinking about a validation process that low-risk players are low-risk. A birth certificate, the starting process, third-party independent players, a tracking as it moves through, a vetting at loading port. This is in the realm of technically possible, commercially possible. We just need to move forward aggressively. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. Senator Coleman. Thank you. Mr. Verdery. TESTIMONY OF C. STEWART VERDERY, JR.,\1\ PRINCIPAL, MEHLMAN VOGEL CASTAGNETTI, INC., ADJUNCT FELLOW, CENTER FOR STRATEGIC AND INTERNATIONAL STUDIES, AND FORMER ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF BORDER AND TRANSPORTATION SECURITY POLICY, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY Mr. Verdery. Thank you, Senator Coleman, for the chance to be here today. As was mentioned, I am a principal at the consulting firm of Mehlman Vogel Castagnetti. I am also an Adjunct Fellow with the Center for Strategic and International Studies, but the views are my own that I will explain today, and I would just go over a couple of the key points because I know we have been here for a while. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- \1\ The prepared statement of Mr. Verdery appears in the Appendix on page 102. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- As you know, I was Assistant Secretary for Border and Transportation Security Policy and Planning for the last 2 years, until my resignation earlier this spring. I was responsible for immigration and visa policy, transportation security, as well as cargo security, largely carried out in the field by CBP, ICE, and TSA. I would be remiss if I didn't thank the Committee for your outstanding efforts to support DHS during my tenure--the intelligence bill probably the most famous--but also your oversight responsibilities were very helpful in focusing our energies and making us do a better job. The point of today's hearing, I think, is to understand that this is a layering of programs, and while we are focusing on two very specific and important programs, CSI and C-TPAT, they are not the only programs that are relevant and they shouldn't be looked at in a vacuum. I think Commissioner Bonner talked eloquently about the layering that CBP is responsible for, but it is really beyond CBP, and I will talk about that in a second. I strongly disagree with any analysis, such as the press accounts we have seen the last couple days, that somehow suggests we are worse off with CSI and C-TPAT and the related programs that they undergird than we would be without them. There are minor flaws that need to be fixed--some of which already have been--due to budget or operational concerns or technology limitations or international agreements, and they have to be worked on, but that should not lead one to the conclusion that we are better off without them. It is not an either/or proposition, as the title of the hearing might suggest, and I know people make hearing titles to be catchy, but it is incremental progress that should be considered that the Department and the Congress supported their programs and we need to think of it in that light. Now, I will say, having looked at some of the major other issues that we face in Homeland Security, we have done more in other areas to come up with an overall strategic plan. You think of visa policy, you think of entry/exit, you think of aviation security, intelligence gathering. With cargo and supply chain security, we have not really done that. The programs we talked about are part of that, but they are not a plan in and of themselves, the programs that CBP and the Coast Guard and other parts of our government implement, and that is why, at the direction of Secretary Ridge and especially Deputy Secretary Loy last year, we were instructed in my office to build a National Strategic Plan for Cargo Security. For any of you who were at the cargo summit that DHS put on in December, you saw the first draft of that. It is a public document. That is now being reviewed within the Department as part of Secretary Chertoff's second-stage review, and my understanding is that will be something that he is focusing on moving forward throughout this summer. He is coming up with a rubric under which all programs can be handled. Let me talk about a couple of things that are beyond CSI and C-TPAT just for a second before returning to this. I do agree with the witnesses today. We do need a zero tolerance for weapons of mass destruction and to devote whatever energies it takes to build that into our system. It is a layered approach, but we have to have that as a 100 percent layer along the way at some point, preferably overseas, if not overseas then domestically. And so we are moving in that direction with the procurements and the deployments we have talked about. I think it is absolutely critical that we rely on our Science and Technology Directorate who has come up with a procurement announcement earlier this year to get the best equipment out there and to have standards. I also would encourage the Congress to support the proposed Domestic Nuclear Detection Office, the DNDO, as a great opportunity to coordinate efforts that do cross agencies within DHS and even beyond DHS in this absolutely critical area. The second phase that is beyond these programs is the Maritime Domain Awareness Effort led by the Coast Guard and the Navy under Homeland Security Presidential Directive 13, signed last winter. This will bring visibility into shipments between when they leave a foreign port and when they arrive domestically. Couple that with the improvements in in-transit protection that we need, first, a regulation that is in the works on mechanical seals, subsequently with high-tech seals or so-called ``smart boxes'' to provide detection notification. Those are things that will bring a measure of accountability between departure and arrival that we absolutely need. Turning briefly to CSI and C-TPAT, I completely agree with the GAO's suggestions in many respects, and I found their work to be very helpful in my responsibilities and think they do a great job. In terms of CSI, I think that CBP does need to redouble efforts to get people overseas to support these efforts. Deploying people is not an easy thing. We worked on it in many other programs besides CSI, and finding the space to get these people overseas, getting the agreements in place with the State Department is not simple. So it does take time and people have to be somewhat patient. I am not sure I agree with the suggestion that we should be returning those people back to the United States to do work here. Once we get people overseas and have gone to that trouble, we ought to be having them work more with host governments to develop leads, to work with local law enforcement and customs officials to figure out the best ways to make that targeting the most effective we can. That can only be done overseas, working with people on the ground. I also would recommend that people try to make these deployments for as long a term as possible to develop those long-term relationships and not have people deployed on TDY basis. In terms of C-TPAT, I am heartened that CBP, working with myself and Under Secretary Hutchinson, have increased the number of validators that are coming online to make the system more whole. I do agree that--and I take some blame here in not coming up with this idea myself--there should be a tiering among the companies that have been accepted or certified but not validated, and I think it is an entirely appropriate measure of risk management to have a tiering for companies that have essentially made promises that have not been confirmed. It does strike me that these companies have track records in dealing with the government that ought to be considered and that they should be given some measure of benefit, but not the full benefits that are given to fully certified C-TPAT members. The last thing I want to mention in my oral remarks is the need for a more broad, more expansive policy office within the Department. I noted with some irony that neither of the GAO reports even mentioned the fact that there is any type of policy oversight within the Department for CBP or any of the other agencies at the bureau level. We see that this issue really does cover issues beyond CBP's responsibilities, especially on the international front, and the reports don't even mention a DHS policy coordination effort or a BTS policy coordination effort and I think that speaks volumes of the dilemma that we have. The work has to be coordinated between Coast Guard, between TSA, between the Science and Technology Directorate, and especially overseas, where we need to bring the full weight of the DHS relationship to bear on each of the programs. We should not be having Customs overseas negotiating separate agreements, and the Coast Guard overseas, ICE, and TSA, they need to be worked together. And so my hope and my expectation is that the Department will come up with a robust policy office providing guidance to all the operational bureaus as well as managing international affairs as part of the Secretary's second-stage review that is ongoing. I thank you for the chance to be here today. I look forward to your questions. Senator Coleman. Thank you very much for your testimony. I want to go over a couple of things that Commissioner Bonner stated. He indicated very clearly that all high-risk containers overseas, if they are not inspected overseas, are inspected when they get here. Was GAO able to verify that? Mr. Stana. No. In fact, of the 65 percent of the containers that were classified as high-risk and were reviewed by the staff overseas, our detailed work at the ports suggested even within that 65 percent, there is no guarantee that all those were high-risk or not high-risk. That is the first point. The second point is when the CSI port people call the U.S. port people and notify them that they couldn't get it inspected for whatever reason, we found no records that could assure us that in all cases the inspection was done stateside. So we don't have the high level of assurance that Commissioner Bonner has. I might add also, if you recall, about a year ago, we did some work on the ATS system and there were some problems there identifying cargo risks and making appropriate designations. This whole CSI system is predicated on ATS. Senator Coleman. Explain ATS. Mr. Stana. ATS is the Automated Targeting System, the system of rules that Commissioner Bonner was describing. There are many of them, hundreds of rules that, based mainly on manifest data, create a point score and risk designation. We found problems with the ATS system that suggests that it also is not absolutely reliable in identifying high-risk cargo. So you put those three together and it suggests problems. I understand where he is coming from, but I wouldn't speak with the same level of assurance. Senator Coleman. Mr. Verdery says we are not worse off, but I think one of the problems here is that we have a system based on an ATS system of which there are concerns about it, the system does a good enough job identifying the risk. Commander Flynn. Well, it is true that we are probably not worse off because we have these systems in place. In fact, they are good faith efforts, as you pointed out. The problem is, is that when you rely on these systems to do the things that they are designed to do and they don't, it creates other vulnerabilities. For example, in some ports, if a container came from a CSI port, they may reduce level of inspection or eliminate it, not necessarily on a point score but because it came from a CSI port. Senator Coleman. I am not arguing with you, Mr. Verdery, in terms of worse off, but I worry about a false sense of security. I worry about increased vulnerability because of reliance upon a system that, at its core, has a few challenges. Commander Flynn. I might just highlight, and this speaks to the need for the coordination, but the National Targeting Center, for instance, isn't hooked up to the Office of Naval Intelligence or Coast Guard's efforts to target based on maritime data. But that targeting effort is based on prior history. CBP is really operating in terms that past performance equals future results. If you have been shipping terrorist-free for 2 years and you have been complying with Customs rules, you are viewed as no risk of terror having compromised a global supply chain. Now, that is just something that no company can achieve and one that we can't have automatic confidence in. It is not that we can't find scary places, but the underlying intelligence that goes into the ATS system is very weak, as we know from just the intelligence that we have about this adversary overall. So it is all built on that edifice of Automatic Targeting System primarily with just applying it overseas. CBP is getting it early enough that CBP can do some analysis and ask a few more questions. But the rest of that universe is viewed as something CBP does not need to look at, and I think that is problematic. Senator Coleman. I am going to come back to the issue of auditing and what that means, but I just want to follow up on another thing the Commissioner said. He was pretty confident that, with one exception, the non-intrusive equipment that is being used at the CSI ports meets or exceeds what we have here. Would you concur with that? Mr. Stana. We are doing some work on that issue right now. We are doing a technology assessment of the different non- intrusive inspection equipment being used. But I will say this. In our classified report, you may recall a chart that we had of three different types of equipment. They had different scan speeds, they had different penetration abilities, and so on. They are not all the same. Some may be better off in some areas, some may be better off in others. But what we are suggesting isn't so much to set a standard so that one port improves or that one country improves. What we are suggesting is, is you may want to set a standard so that you have scan speed and penetration ability that is consistent so that when you get an inspection done, it is a consistent inspection and you can have confidence in it and you don't need to reinspect the cargo container. Commander Flynn. Mr. Chairman, if I can on that issue, one of the biggest problems is the disconnect, between radiation portal monitors and gamma scanning and whether or not detection can happen. CBP may have good equipment, but when they are not used together, the central problem is this. Radiation portals won't help you with shielded weapon, which would be a loose nuke. It won't help you with a shielded RDD, a dirty bomb. And it won't help you with highly-enriched uranium because it doesn't give off enough of a signature vis- a-vis the background. So to rely primarily on a radiation portal technology, it is not helping us with the scariest problem set. But when you have a radiation portal, it forces the shielding because they know you could detect it for the dirty bomb problem, particularly. Then your imaging would say there is a big cylinder object or whatever here in the middle of a shipment of sneakers. That is a problem. So part of the issue is DOE has been marching off deploying radiation portals entirely isolated from DHS's effort. DHS only uses the gamma for a very small population, because that is all they have the resources to do. They ask other countries to apply it in the same way. And these two worlds haven't come together. So it is not the technology itself is a problem, it is how we integrate the technology, how we integrate it with data. And I will just highlight another issue, keeping the information. We are not storing the information after we get these images. Storage is cheap, but CBP is tossing it away. CBP is basically throwing away a forensic tool if something went wrong, or even a tool that CBP can learn from over time. I don't understand why that is happening, but for stuff coming across the Canadian border, as soon as the image is taken, within a day or so, the image is gone. CBP dumps it. It makes no sense that CBP is not storing this and trying to learn from it, as well. So it is the technology has limits, but it is more about how we integrate it, how we interface with software, how we use human judgment as a part of the process. Mr. Stana. And if I could just add one more thing, most of the detection equipment we are speaking of is aimed at nuclear or radiological threats. There are other types of weapons of mass destruction that we do need to focus on and to build some standards around. Senator Coleman. Let me talk a little bit about the audits. As I was listening, Commander Flynn, to your testimony, I was wondering, where are you going with it? In other words, what are you proposing? What is the solution? Commander Flynn. We have a system now that if you talk about the system of terrorism it is not going to be a pattern, all you have to do is one shot, you have to get it through, so the thing that we are looking at now of narcotics and other things are based on, as you said, somebody continuing to use a system and figuring out a way to avoid it. So the best targets, I think the soft targets are those operations that have been ``validated,'' that, in effect, really almost guarantee not being checked further. If there was one concern I had with the Commissioner--one other concern I had with the Commissioner's testimony was even though there is a tiered system right now, the fact is that you are giving, in effect, carte blanche to companies that have not been audited, clearly not been audited. Mr. Stana. Yes. I think that is a cause for concern. I heard the tier approach. I think it is a step in the right direction, but the fact of the matter is, with the vetting process, you are assuming that the kinds of vulnerabilities that you addressed in the past are indicative of the security chain vulnerabilities of the future, and this assumption is made without a validation. What they are doing is giving a number of benefit points to a vetted company without validation, and the number of points is sufficient to move them from a high-risk category to a low-risk category. Senator Coleman. In part, is the problem of validation perhaps almost--perhaps a difference in philosophy? Customs and Border Protection isn't really talking about auditing. Even their validation is not an audit. Commander Flynn, you ultimately said that you have to audit the auditors. That is an audit. Commander Flynn. Right. Senator Coleman. And what I am not hearing in place today is a system in which GAO actually would consider an audit. Mr. Stana. Or at least a reasonable examination of the supply chain security. What is happening is you have the CBP and the company agree to what CBP will look at, and oftentimes, it is not the crux or even the majority of the operation, and that is troublesome. Mr. Verdery. If I could just suggest, I think that in my prepared remarks, I talked about the consideration of turning parts of C-TPAT into a baseline regulatory regime. Not all of it is probably suitable to go into your typical statutes and regulations, but as we load up more and more bells and whistles onto essentially a voluntary deal, I think the time has come to consider whether or not this should apply to all players, all importers and other folks in the supply chain, and also, I think, provide a degree of transparency into how these processes are done. As I understand it, the recent changes on the tiering were announced by E-mail. I am not sure this is the way government business ought to be handled. And I do think that a regulatory baseline in some respects of C-TPAT would provide that kind of--it is not going to be an audit, but it would provide that kind of level of assurance that you might give the public more confidence. Now, I don't think people should take too much the fact that something is validated: That is a snapshot in time. That is no guarantee that a week later, things haven't changed. So I don't think you can divide the world into black and white. These are companies we have to have ongoing relationships with and a regulatory regime might be a way to make that more productive. Commander Flynn. If I can, Mr. Chairman, where I am going with this is this validation is the entry-level argument, so it is the birth certificate process. Agreed-upon protocols, somebody goes out and checks that the company is actually living up to them. Sarbanes-Oxley style, basically. Are you living up to the controls? It is not done by the U.S. Government, it is done by folks who are skilled at auditing. And then DMS checks the checking process. So that is the kind of mechanism there. But then to assure that, in fact, this is happening, that the low-risk is staying low-risk, you have confidence it was stopped, you are tracking it through and you are spot-checking along the way. It doesn't have to be 100 percent because terrorists don't have unlimited resources or unlimited weapons of mass destruction. If, in fact, it looks like the deterrent-- the probability of success in the system looks not so good, even 50/50, they are going to go another route. So by building this robustness to it--but my nightmare scenario now is the weapon of mass destruction will go off in Minneapolis and it will come via a C-TPAT company on a C-TPAT- compliant carrier through an ISPS-compliant port, an ISPS- compliant ship, and the entire regime will fall apart because we didn't build the controls in up front to give us confidence in it. Senator Coleman. It is pretty sobering. I sense in your testimony about keeping data, in part what you are saying is if something does happen, you can at least identify this is the problem so that the entire system is not cast aside? Commander Flynn. To deal with the incident, the analogy I would use, Mr. Chairman, is the black box in an airplane. We don't put them in there because they are free and because they make the planes fly better. But every time--the rare times that jet airliners fall out of the sky, if the only thing that the aviation industry and the government did was shrug and say, it doesn't happen very often, it is one in a million times, people wouldn't get back on planes. Having the tools and the system to verify even after, to support the investigation, so as to find an isolated supply chain that was a problem. CBP can focus on it. It means you don't have to close the border with Canada. You don't have to close the seaports around the country. But if you can't do that, you have to assume everything is at risk, and that becomes a real problem for us. Senator Coleman. My problem may be definition of terms. We talk about things being certified. In the public's mind, I think they think certification has some really strong value. This is USDA-certified Grade A meat or whatever. Somebody has looked at it. Somebody has inspected it. Somebody then checked it out and they have made a judgment. And what we are having here is we have application, certification really being looking at paperwork, just looking at paperwork and trusting--this is trust but not verify--that you got what you got. That is a far cry from certification. And then in terms of validation, you can have validation which is not validating this is the way the system works. What you are looking at, it is the blind man and the elephant. You are literally looking at one little piece of it that may or may not be representative of the rest of the system, and you are looking at a piece, by the way, that you have agreed up front to look at. So it is a kind of thing that FDA wouldn't do. So that is my concern, that we have phrases here--certification, validation--that I don't think meet the standard definition that most folks would think about. And again, when we go back to the risks here, they are pretty significant. Let me ask a question, though, about validation, even the system that we have. It seems to me the program is growing very rapidly, but we are only validating a small percentage. Is that problematic? Mr. Verdery. They have to catch up, and I think they are catching up. Bringing on these validators, you have to get them hired and trained and the like and they are catching up. I think you heard the Commissioner say 11 percent are validated now and they have 40 percent in the works. I do think that the recruitment efforts, perhaps, ought to take a back seat for a while to the validation efforts. Sir, if I could just--I think, essentially, you have a situation where you have an interim security clearance. We allow those in other types of situations. And the question is, do you provide any kind of benefit for somebody at that level? I think it is a reasonable risk management tool to give some benefit, even if you are not going to give a full panoply of benefits. And again, I think people would be a lot more comfortable with this whole rubric or regime if at one point along the way there was a 100 percent check for WMD, and that, I think, has got to be a priority, to get those machines out, preferably overseas. Where we can't get them overseas, have them domestically. I think that would provide a kind of a backbone to make this thing make more sense from a logical basis. Senator Coleman. Let me have Mr. Stana first, and then I want to follow up on this point. One, this question of catching up, what is your best estimate of our capability to catch up? Mr. Stana. It is going to take years at this rate. I mean, we are not much further along now in hiring new people than we were months ago. For that reason, a couple things have to happen. They are going to have to prioritize which ones to validate first, and I would start with the importers who are receiving the greatest benefits. And yet only 7 percent of them have been validated. Second, I haven't really studied Steve Flynn's idea about going to the private sector or going elsewhere to get a bonded third party with appropriate background checks to do some of the validations. That approach might hold some promise. I would need to study it a little bit, but those kinds of auditing models are available elsewhere in government. But I am not comfortable in saying that a cargo container can move from a high-risk designation to a low-risk designation simply because the importer filled out the paperwork correctly and we don't have any noncompliance history in our data files. I don't know if that is enough in this day and age. Senator Coleman. Commander Flynn. Commander Flynn. I would agree with that. I just would point to the Port State Control Regime that the Coast Guard uses. The way you close the gap is you bring third parties who have expertise in the supply chains, which Customs has very little of. That is not a skill set that is a result of being a Customs official. They are trying to build it now. Instead of hiring a lot of new government employees on this front, you build that set for oversight purposes, but you go out to the marketplace and you say to the importers, as a part of being C- TPAT, you have to have a third-party player who has verified your compliance. Port State Control works this way. If you are an oil tanker coming into the U.S. waters, you have to have on file with the Coast Guard a certificate of financial responsibility, insurance, that you have come in. In order to get the insurance, you have to have a Classification Society go on board and confirm that you live up to the international safety standards. Then the Coast Guard spot checks when the ship comes in to say, are you living up to--have you, based on its expertise--was that inspection done with due diligence? If it was not, the ship is held up. But every other ship that used that classifier is also held up. That creates the incentive for everybody to go to the top-shelf certifier. So there are ways in which the market can be used for expertise and to validate. Now, clearly when it is a security validation or a safety one, you need some liability protection, and that is why there will have to be a robust oversight process for this, as well. But the only way to close the gap, I would argue, would be to take this third-party model. Otherwise, it will be years and years and as far as we can go. Senator Coleman. And Mr. Stana, on behalf of the requestors of your work, Chairman Collins, Senator Lieberman, myself, and Senator Levin, I would ask you, and we will put this in writing, but continue to follow up on this. I think this is very important work, and I think we have made a lot of progress. And again, from the beginning, I have mentioned that we need to applaud the efforts that have been taken. These are steps in the right direction. My concern, though, is that there are still significant vulnerabilities, and even in regard to issues like validation and certification, I am not sure that we are speaking the same language here. I think we have to be speaking the same language so that we can have some consistent levels of confidence that we are catching the problem before it ultimately is a huge disaster. I also noticed that Gene Aloise, the Director at GAO, who led the team that produced the Megaports report is here and I want to thank Gene for his efforts, and again, your entire team. I am going to keep the record open for 2 weeks. There is additional information that we want. I want to thank everybody for their testimony. This has been a very productive and very informative hearing. With that, this hearing is adjourned. 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