[House Hearing, 110 Congress] [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office] REVIEW OF THE WELFARE OF ANIMALS IN AGRICULTURE ======================================================================= HEARING BEFORE THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON LIVESTOCK, DAIRY, AND POULTRY OF THE COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES ONE HUNDRED TENTH CONGRESS FIRST SESSION __________ MAY 8, 2007 __________ Serial No. 110-18 Printed for the use of the Committee on Agriculture www.agriculture.house.gov U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE 39-809 PDF WASHINGTON DC: 2008 --------------------------------------------------------------------- For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Printing Office Internet: bookstore.gpo.gov Phone: toll free (866)512-1800 DC area (202)512-1800 Fax: (202) 512-2250 Mail Stop SSOP, Washington, DC 20402-0001 COMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE COLLIN C. PETERSON, Minnesota, Chairman TIM HOLDEN, Pennsylvania BOB GOODLATTE, Virginia Vice Chairman Ranking Minority Member MIKE McINTYRE, North Carolina TERRY EVERETT, Alabama BOB ETHERIDGE, North Carolina FRANK D. LUCAS, Oklahoma LEONARD L. BOSWELL, Iowa JERRY MORAN, Kansas JOE BACA, California ROBIN HAYES, North Carolina DENNIS A. CARDOZA, California TIMOTHY V. JOHNSON, Illinois DAVID SCOTT, Georgia SAM GRAVES, Missouri JIM MARSHALL, Georgia JO BONNER, Alabama STEPHANIE HERSETH SANDLIN, South MIKE ROGERS, Alabama Dakota STEVE KING, Iowa HENRY CUELLAR, Texas MARILYN N. MUSGRAVE, Colorado JIM COSTA, California RANDY NEUGEBAUER, Texas JOHN T. SALAZAR, Colorado CHARLES W. BOUSTANY, Jr., BRAD ELLSWORTH, Indiana Louisiana NANCY E. BOYDA, Kansas JOHN R. "Randy" KUHL, Jr., New ZACHARY T. SPACE, Ohio York TIMOTHY J. WALZ, Minnesota VIRGINIA FOXX, North Carolina KIRSTEN E. GILLIBRAND, New York K. MICHAEL CONAWAY, Texas STEVE KAGEN, Wisconsin JEFF FORTENBERRY, Nebraska EARL POMEROY, North Dakota JEAN SCHMIDT, Ohio LINCOLN DAVIS, Tennessee ADRIAN SMITH, Nebraska JOHN BARROW, Georgia KEVIN McCARTHY, California NICK LAMPSON, Texas TIM WALBERG, Michigan JOE DONNELLY, Indiana TIM MAHONEY, Florida Professional Staff Robert L. Larew, Chief of Staff Andrew W. Baker, Chief Counsel William E. O'Conner, Jr., Minority Staff Director ......................................................... __________ Subcommittee on Livestock, Dairy, and Poultry LEONARD L. BOSWELL, Iowa, Chairman KIRSTEN E. GILLIBRAND, New York ROBIN HAYES, North Carolina STEVE KAGEN, Wisconsin Ranking Minority Member TIM HOLDEN, Pennsylvania MIKE ROGERS, Alabama JOE BACA, California STEVE KING, Iowa DENNIS A. CARDOZA, California VIRGINIA FOXX, North Carolina NICK LAMPSON, Texas K. MICHAEL CONAWAY, Texas JOE DONNELLY, Indiana JEAN SCHMIDT, Ohio JIM COSTA, California ADRIAN SMITH, Nebraska TIM MAHONEY, Florida TIM WALBERG, Michigan Chandler Goule, Subcommittee Staff Director ......................................................... (ii) C O N T E N T S ---------- Page Boswell, Hon. Leonard, a Representative in Congress from the State of Iowa, opening statment................................ 1 Prepared statement........................................... 52 Hayes, Hon. Robin, a Representative in Congress from the State of North Carolina, opening statement.............................. 3 Prepared statement........................................... 54 Lampson, Hon. Nick, a Representative in Congress from the State of Texas, prepared statement................................... 55 King, Hon. Steve, a Representative in Congress from the State of Iowa, prepared statement....................................... 56 Peterson, Hon. Collin C., a Representative in Congress from the State of Minnesota, opening statement.......................... 3 Prepared statement........................................... 57 Goodlatte, Hon. Bob, a Representative in Congress from the Commonwealth of Virginia, opening statement.................... 4 Prepared statement........................................... 59 Witnesses Stenholm, Hon. Charlie, Olsson, Frank, and Weeda, P.C., Washington, D.C................................................ 4 Prepared statement........................................... 60 Pacelle, Mr. Wayne, President and CEO, The Humane Society of the United States, Washington, D.C................................. 16 Prepared statement........................................... 64 Golab, Dr. Gail C., PhD, DVM, Associate Director, Animal Welfare Division, American Veterinary Medical Association, Schaumburg, Illinois....................................................... 18 Prepared statement........................................... 79 Leary, Dr. Steven L., DVM, Assistant Vice Chancellor, Veterinary Affairs, Washington University, on behalf of National Association for Biomedical Research, St. Louis, Missouri....... 20 Prepared statement........................................... 98 Gregory, Mr. Gene, President, United Egg Producers, Alpharetta, Georgia........................................................ 22 Prepared statement........................................... 108 Gonzalez, Mr. Guillermo, Owner, Sonoma Foie Gras, on behalf of Artisan Farmers Alliance, Sonoma, California................... 23 Prepared statement........................................... 114 Martosko, Mr. David, Director of Research, Center for Consumer Freedom, Washington, D.C....................................... 25 Prepared statement........................................... 116 Baur, Mr. Gene, President, Farm Sanctuary, Watkins Glen, New York 37 Prepared statement........................................... 123 Ramsey, Mr. Paxton, Member, National Cattlemen's Beef Association, Devers, Texas..................................... 39 Prepared statement........................................... 131 Determan, Ms. Barbara, National Pork Producers Council, Early, Iowa........................................................... 41 Prepared statement........................................... 136 Lange, Ms. Leslie Vagneur, National Director, American Quarter Horse Association, Greeley, Colorado........................... 43 Prepared statement........................................... 153 Jordan, Dr. Karen, Owner, Large Animal Veterinary Services, on behalf of National Milk Producers Federation, Siler City, North Carolina....................................................... 45 Prepared statement........................................... 158 Submitted Material Scott, Mr. Bryan, Executive Vice President, American Veal Association, Antioch, Illinois................................. 161 Golab, Dr. Gail C., PhD, DVM, Associate Director, Animal Welfare Division, American Veterinary Medical Association, Schaumburg, Illinois....................................................... 171 Pacelle, Mr. Wayne, President and CEO, Humane Society of the U.S., Washington, D.C.......................................... 175 National Cattlemen's Beef Association............................ 180 Riley, Ms. Janet M., Senior Vice President, American Meat Institute, Washington, D.C..................................... 204 Baur, Mr. Gene, President, Farm Sanctuary, Watkins Glen, New York 304 Gregory, Mr. Gene, President, United Egg Producers, Alpharetta, Georgia........................................................ 308 American Farm Bureau Federation, Washington, D.C................. 328 Stenholm, Hon. Charlie, Olsson, Frank, Weeda, P.C., Washington, D.C............................................................ 333 Jordan, Dr. Karen, DVM, Owner, Large Animal Veterinary Services, on behalf of National Milk Producers Federation, Siler City, North Carolina................................................. 242 Lange, Ms. Leslie Vagneur, National Director, American Quarter Horse Association, Greeley, Colorado [American Quarter Horse Association Official Handbook of Rules and Regulations Contained in Committee Records]................................ 391 Answers to submitted questions................................... 432 HEARING TO REVIEW THE WELFARE OF ANIMALS IN AGRICULTURE ---------- TUESDAY, MAY 8, 2007 House of Representatives, Subcommittee on Livestock, Dairy, and Poultry Committee on Agriculture Washington, DC. The Subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 10:35 a.m., in Room 1300 of the Longworth House Office Building, Hon. Leonard Boswell [Chairman of the Subcommittee] presiding. Members present: Representatives Boswell, Kagen, Holden, Cardoza, Lampson, Costa, Peterson (ex officio), Hayes, King, Conaway, Smith, Walberg, Schmidt and Goodlatte (ex officio). Staff present: Adam Durand, Chandler Goule, Tyler Jameson, Scott Kuschmider, John Riley, Sharon Rusnak, April Slayton, Debbie Smith, Kristin Sosanie, Lindsey Correa, John Goldberg, Pam Miller, Stephanie Myers, Pete Thomson, and Jamie Weyer. STATEMENT OF HON. LEONARD BOSWELL, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF IOWA Mr. Boswell. We would like to call our meeting to order for today, and I would like to thank all of you for being here. I give a special thanks to our witnesses for offering their insight into the current welfare issues surrounding animal agriculture. I look forward to hearing your testimony. I think it an opportunity for us to share together and treat each other like we would like to be treated and get some things out we ought to be talking about. I would just say this. Having spent most of my life involved in animal agriculture, I understand many of the issues firsthand. Looking back over my own history, I have worked with a variety of animals from dairy cows to feeder pigs to my current cow-calf operation and of course we have always had a couple of horses or more on the farm as we do even today. So these issues are not showing up on my radar for the first time. We will hear from all sides of this issue today with two primary questions, maybe more: what is the status of animal welfare in American agriculture, and what is the industry currently doing to address the concerns of consumers. On the first question, as animal agriculture has grown over the past 50 years, I believe our views on animal welfare have advanced. Today we will hear from the industry about the science-based self-regulation that the poultry, cattle, hog and many other livestock producers have developed to ensure that welfare standards remain current and reflect consumer concerns. My own experience in agriculture has shown me what happens when producers treat their animals poorly. Take, for example, dairy cows. If these animals are not properly fed, watered, and sheltered, we know what happens to milk production, which makes a difference in many cases whether the person can stay in business or close their doors. Mistreated animals simply will not produce and that is not good for the animal or the farmer. On the second question, I believe that the industry has already taken steps to address some consumer concerns. With the recent boom in demand for organic agriculture, which is going on across the country, it is clear that more and more consumers are focusing on not only what their food is but where it has come from and how it was grown and raised. For example, Burger King, Wendy's, Ben and Jerry's and all Wolfgang Puck restaurants also now expect their suppliers to meet certain animal welfare standards. I welcome these changes in industry from cage-free to free range chickens. Consumers deserve the choice. If someone is willing to pay $3 for a dozen eggs to ensure they come from chickens that lived in certain conditions, they should have that option. Similarly, if someone decides to use products from conventionally raised animals, they should have that choice as well as long as the operation is up to Federal, State and industry standards. These voluntary market-driven changes may or may not be enough to fix problems in the industry. However, there may still be more than we can do. That is why hearings like this are important. We need to consider all options and we must ensure that existing laws are being enforced before we move too quickly to write new ones. Creating news laws before the new ones are properly enforced is not necessarily the solution. Our hope is this hearing today will not simply focus on problems but solutions as well. We need solutions not only to protect animals but ensure safe, plentiful, and affordable food supply. Animal agriculture is a multibillion-dollar industry in the United States which not only helps feed those of us in this room but people around the world. In a sense, we all have a vested interest in agriculture, the consumer as well as the producer. We all have a vested interest for this reason, and that is simply this: Based on per capita, we have the least expensive food in the world. That is right. We have the most plentiful and we have the safest per capita. The percentage of disposable income in the United States, I am told by those who study this, is the lowest by quite a bit compared to modern places like western Europe all the way to the undeveloped countries where this takes all of their income. So we have a very good situation in that sense. We have food that is safe, plentiful and inexpensive. So as we go on to this discussion today, for some it is a highly emotional situation but I am glad to have witnesses from all sides of the debate so we can have a candid, respectful and productive discussion on the welfare of animals in American agriculture. So at this time, I would like to turn it over to my good friend and colleague, Robin Hayes from North Carolina, for any opening remarks he would like to make. STATEMENT OF HON. ROBIN HAYES, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA Mr. Hayes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Chairman Boswell has called today's hearing to discuss animal welfare issues affecting American's livestock and poultry producers. I am pleased that we will be hearing from the former Ranking Member of this committee and someone who is a great friend and expert of the U.S. producers, Congressman Charlie Stenholm. We welcome you hear today and know that you bring us insightful words of wisdom regarding animal welfare and the challenges that lie ahead for animal agriculture. I am sure Mr. Stenholm would agree that it is our job as members of this committee representing our agricultural constituents back home to stand strong for our producers and stand up to anyone wishing to put them out of business. I must applaud the animal agriculture industry for the great strides they have made over the years to address animal welfare. Producers have been proactive in the humane treatment of animals by implementing industry-led standards and guidelines based on the latest scientific recommendations for animal welfare and I might add their own concern for their own animals. Farmers, ranchers and sound science-based veterinarians, not activists, should be dictating animal husbandry practices. I am pleased to see representatives of the scientific and research community as well as the livestock industry that are here to share with us the programs and measures they have in place to ensure animals are treated with the utmost of care. Mr. Chairman, with the farm bill looming, I would like to express my concern about the timing of the hearing. I think we all recognize that we are in the middle of working on the farm bill and the hearings we have should directly relate to farm bill issues, especially considering the time constraints we are under. Given the fact that I do not believe these issues should be included in the farm bill, I do question the timing of the hearing. I believe everyone would be better served if we address these issues outside of the farm bill venue so that they can receive the attention they deserve. Having said that, I appreciate you and applaud your efforts to be inclusive in this hearing and I appreciate the witnesses' time in being here today. Thank you. Mr. Boswell. Thank you, Mr. Hayes. I notice we have the Chairman of the Full Committee with us and I would like to offer an opportunity for Congressman Peterson at this time. STATEMENT OF HON. COLLIN C. PETERSON, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF MINNESOTA Chairman Peterson. I thank the Chairman and the Ranking Member for their leadership in calling this hearing. I have got a statement but I think we have got a fairly long list of witnesses so I am just going to include the statement for the record and look forward to hearing the testimony. Mr. Boswell. Thank you, and I recognize Mr. Goodlatte, who is the Ranking Member of the Full Committee. STATEMENT OF HON. BOB GOODLATTE, A REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS FROM THE STATE OF VIRGINIA Mr. Goodlatte. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I would like to take this opportunity to welcome each of our witnesses today and to thank them for their time and effort in addressing the complex issues of today's hearing. In my conversations with Chairman Peterson, he has laid out a very challenging and aggressive schedule for the pending farm bill. For that reason, I am curious why we are having this particular hearing at this particular time. While we all share the same values in regard to animal welfare, the practical application of those values requires significantly more time and thoroughness than this hearing affords. Additionally, this hearing lacks the participation of the sheep industry or the packers including poultry, pork and beef sectors or animal exhibitions such as zoos, circuses, marine animal parks, rodeos or companion animal representatives. I think that if we were to have a complete record on this topic, we need to hear from all of them as well. Like all Americans, I support the humane treatment of all animals including those in our Nation's farms and stockyards, research facilities, processing plants, exhibitions and our homes. It is our responsibility to be good stewards of the animals under our charge. Let me be clear on this point. I know that I speak for my colleagues on this committee when I say that the inhumane treatment of animals will not be tolerated. In conversations I have had with farmers and ranchers across the country, it is clear that the animal agriculture industry shares this strong belief and appreciate for the animals in their care. These farmers work alongside their animals day in and day out. These animals are the very livelihood of many farmers in the 6th District of Virginia and elsewhere. For that reason, the animal agriculture industry continues to develop practices on its own that meet the evolving scientific research on animal welfare. As we discuss these issues going forward, I will continue to take my guidance from the men and women involved in animal agriculture, trusting in the knowledge that they both care about their animals and understand the challenges associated with their care. Mr. Chairman, I look forward to the testimony of today's witnesses and their responses to our questions. Thank you. Mr. Boswell. Thank you, Mr. Goodlatte. I appreciate you being with us today. The chair would request that other members submit their opening statements for the record so that witnesses may begin their testimony and we will do our best to ensure that there is ample time for questions. So at this time I would like to welcome our first panelist to the table, the Honorable Charlie Stenholm. Mr. Stenholm, please begin when you are ready. STATEMENT OF HON. CHARLIE STENHOLM, OLSSON, FRANK AND WEEDA, P.C., WASHINGTON, DC. Mr. Stenholm. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member Hayes, members of the committee. I appreciate very much the opportunity to testify here today on behalf of all animal agriculture. If you eat or wear clothes, you are affected by agriculture. The industry remains an important part of the United States economy. According to USDA, animal products account for the majority, 51 percent, of the value of U.S. agricultural products, exceeding $100 billion per year. I am sure many of you went to zoos as a child or will bring your children or grandchildren to one this summer. Caregivers at zoos nationwide care about the welfare of their animals. Many of you probably remember the first time you saw a circus and may attend one when it comes here. The Ringling Brothers Barnum and Bailey Center for Elephant Conservation has one of the most successful breeding programs for endangered Asian elephants outside of Southeast Asia. They care about the welfare of their animals. Just like these groups of animal owners, production agriculture has not and will never be given the credit it is due by animal rights activists and that we too care about the welfare of our animals. There is one thing though that everyone you will hear from today agrees on. All animals should be treated humanely from birth until death. Now, what you will not hear is an agreement on the facts. Everyone is entitled to their opinions but not everyone is entitled to their interpretation of the facts. You will hear testimony today from several livestock producer associations and they all care about the same thing: ensuring the health and well-being of their animals is their number one priority. The livestock industry has worked hard both from a legislative standpoint through this committee and through industry guidelines to improve animal welfare conditions. Animal agriculture constantly works to accept new technologies and science and apply them to industry, investing millions of dollars every year to ensure the wellness of their livestock. Producers recognize the need to maintain animal welfare regulations for the safety and nutrition of their livestock, for the conservation of the environment and for the profitability of their operations. But those regulations should be based on sound science from veterinary professionals that best understand animals, working together with legitimate animal use industries. While the livestock industry has a long history of supporting animal welfare, many activist groups such as PETA, the Humane Society of the United States, and Farm Sanctuary have used falsehoods and scare tactics to push their hidden agendas of fundraising and systematically abolishing all use of animals including production agriculture, zoos, circuses and sporting events. These groups campaign for animal rights, which is not synonymous with animal welfare, using half truths or complete deception. These groups also fail to mention the millions of dollars in fundraising and assets that drive their misguided goals. The Humane Society has accumulated $113 million in assets, has a budget 3 times the size of PETA's, and according to the ActivistCash website, has more than enough funding to finance animal shelters in all 50 States. Yet it only operates one animal sanctuary, Black Beauty Ranch in Texas, which is at full capacity. Now, you will hear later that they are doing more, and that is great, we commend them for it, but they haven't to this point. According to the Wall Street Journal, two offshoots of Humane Society spent $3.4 million on Congressional elections and ballot initiatives, which is more than Exxon Mobile Corporation spent and there is an ongoing investigation by the Louisiana Attorney General to determine if the $30 million the Humane Society fundraised during the Hurricane Katrina crisis has been handled appropriately. Now, these activist groups use the platform of animal rights to advocate for regulations so strict they will put animal agriculture out of business, which is their real goal. A video recently circulated to Members of Conservation and a video produced by the Humane Society make numerous false claims against the livestock industry. For example, the video suggests that horses are inhumanely transported on double-deck trailers on their way to slaughter, and if a horse does arrive in one of those trailers, the processing facility would not accept it. They say that we are still doing it. It has been against the law since 1995. In addition, numerous truck drivers invested in new trailers at a tremendous investment on their part to comply with the law and agriculture has stepped up once again to improve animal welfare conditions. Another example of misleading rhetoric by animal rights activists involves the process of captive bolt euthanasia. The previously mentioned videos claim that captive bolt is not humane. Interestingly, however, the 2000 report of the AVMA's panel on euthanasia specifically approves the use of captive bolt as a humane technique of euthanasia for horses. It is also an approved method of euthanasia for pork, cattle and lamb. The captive bolt method meets specific humane requirements set forth by AVMA's panel on euthanasia, USDA and, interestingly, the Humane Society of the United States statement on euthanasia because it results in instantaneous brain death and is generally agreed to be the most humane method of euthanasia for livestock. Watching the end of life for any living creature is not a pleasant experience, even when performed in the most humane manner. However, these groups continue to use human emotion and sensationalism to prey on the public's sensitivity in order to reach their goal of abolishing animal agriculture. Unfortunately, we all know mistakes happen and laws are broken. We cannot say that any form of euthanasia is perfect. I will not try to convince you or anyone else otherwise. But when these unfortunate incidents occur, appropriate action should be taken. We should not get in the habit of creating arbitrary, uninformed and emotionally based regulations on an industry whose livelihood depends on the health and well-being of its animals. We should not tie the hands of researchers and investors that continually seek improvements in animal welfare practices and we should not tie the hands of producers who work night and day to ensure the quality of life of their livestock so they can provide this country and others with the most abundant, safest, and the most affordable food supply. In conclusion, Mr. Chairman, professional experts such as AVMA, the American Association of Equine Practitioners and USDA should not have their expertise continue to be questioned by animal rights activists who line their own pockets with donations secured by exploiting and distorting the issues. These groups throw sensationalistic and often staged photos in the faces of those who do not understand it including your fellow Members of Congress not on this committee. What they do not do is use their millions of dollars in fundraising to build animal shelters and provide research for new technologies and procedures or provide truthful information to consumers about animal agriculture industry. Emotions run high and with continued antics by activist groups, the ultimate outcome will be devastating. If animal rights activist groups continue to be successful like we have seen in recent months with the closing of U.S. horse processing facilities, abandonment of animals will increase, animal welfare will decline, honest and legal businesses will close, America's trade balance will worsen, jobs will disappear, family heritage and livelihood will be stolen and the best interest in the welfare of animals will be lost. As the Agriculture Committee, it is your job and responsibility to keep science and best management practices at the forefront of your decisions when developing legislation. Emotional, feel-good policy is not reasonable for the agricultural industry. As a committee, you are tasked with providing the type of environment for your agricultural constituents and your other constituents, the 99.3 percent of your constituents who enjoy the food that is produced by the .07 percent that in fact are the producers. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Boswell. Well, thank you, Mr. Stenholm. We appreciate that. You covered a lot of territory. I didn't know a Texan could talk that fast. I appreciate what you said. I have a couple questions and then we will go to the rest of the members. Some of your testimony speaks of the efforts of the European Union to regulate animal welfare. What are your thoughts on these efforts and has it impacted their trade balance? Mr. Stenholm. Well, one of the--you look for a pony in the pile every now and then in this whole area and just recently Britain has decided they have had enough with the animal rights activists in Britain where a lot of our folks go to be trained in some of the tactics that are used and they have said enough is enough, and interestingly, public perception in Europe is now beginning to change. Europeans are finally, recognizing that if you continue to do as some would have us to do, eliminate the use of animals in research and eliminate the use of good science and technology in all production agriculture, that the world is going to have a hard time feeding itself. So that is one of the areas that we have seen a little good news. Just this last week USA Today had an article on it, it was the first time I had heard about it. But from the standpoint of trade balance, I have been fortunate and honored and pleased to be declared the spokesman for the Horse Welfare Coalition over the last year and a half. Chairman Goodlatte and Ranking Member Peterson last year, turned around this year, did an excellent job on this committee of showing to our colleagues that ending the horse industry, which is what the folks have successfully done with the temporary reprieve now with Cavel being back in operation as I speak but hopefully a permanent reprieve coming soon in which the processing component of the horse industry, which adds over $30 million to the export trade surplus for the United States, will not be ended. People will say to you, we don't have any intention of ending the animal industry but folks have been almost successful in ending the horse processing industry in the United States at a loss of jobs, loss of income and the devastating results now to the horse industry that we are already beginning to see. Mr. Boswell. Thank you. I have other questions but I think I will yield to Mr. Hayes at this time. Mr. Hayes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Stenholm, it is a rare and unique opportunity to have someone of your stature who has been on both sides of the witness table and we appreciate what you bring to the table and you also have been on both sides of the horse and the cow and the livestock industry. Just take a few moments, if you will, to describe from your own perspective the attitude and the relationship between the rancher and his animals. Mr. Stenholm. That is one of the parts of the emotionalism of this that has really bothered me, and again, I want to make it very clear. I respect the rights of those who you will hear from who basically want to eliminate horse slaughter as an option. I respect their right to that opinion. But I do not respect their right to take that away from me as a horse owner or my fellow horse owners. The private property rights option is one that the cattle industry and the horse industry and sheep industry and all agriculture and it is amazing to me how many of our members now in this Congress have suddenly forgotten about individual property rights. No one argues about how a horse's life should be ended or a calf's life should be ended. Well, some do. Some believe no life should ever be ended except naturally, but that is a very small minority. But an owner of livestock, to be accused of mismanaging or mishandling their livestock when their very livelihood depends on that animal living a healthy life under the best conditions that you can present to them affects the bottom line. Now, this bothers some people, the bottom line. But, Mr. Chairman, as you noted in your opening statement, we are blessed to live in a country that has the most abundant food supply, the best quality, the safest food supply at the lowest cost of people in any other country in the world. That doesn't happen by accident. That happens because producers use the best science and technology from the best universities in the world, teaching our young people how to do better, how it used to be said in Norman Borlog's time, how to make 2 blades of grass grow where 1 grew before and then to use that and to use it in a humane fashion. With all due respect, I would say that I believe it is good we are holding this hearing today because you can be almost guaranteed that there will be amendments offered in the Congress on an appropriations bill, which got us off on the wrong foot with horses a couple years ago, you remember. You can imagine that there will be folks that will have amendments, and by providing this good record today, showing what ranchers, farmers, livestock producers, all individuals who are concerned about the welfare of animals what you are actually doing is something that I know you have already been using but what we have got to do is find a way to get that story out to where more of the non-agricultural press begin to pick up on what we are really doing in agriculture, not what some people say we are. Mr. Hayes. Thank you, sir, and one more question. As a rancher, is there anything any more important to you as a businessman and rancher than the welfare of your livestock? Mr. Stenholm. No. Mr. Hayes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back. Mr. Boswell. At this time the chair recognizes Mr. Goodlatte. Mr. Goodlatte. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Charlie, welcome back. We very much appreciate your testimony and very much appreciate the opportunity to work with you on this committee for many years including as the Ranking Member. You mentioned in your testimony that the Humane Society of the United States operates an animal sanctuary in Texas. Is this sanctuary subject to regulation under the Federal Animal Welfare Act? Mr. Stenholm. I don't believe that it is but I think you will find general agreement that it should be. Mr. Goodlatte. Has it been inspected by the U.S. Department of Agriculture? Mr. Stenholm. Not to my knowledge it has not. Mr. Goodlatte. Do you know anything about its compliance history with animal welfare regulations? Mr. Stenholm. Not to my knowledge, it doesn't. Mr. Goodlatte. There is no record at the Federal level? Mr. Stenholm. There is no record that we have ever been able to determine because again, under current law, I believe this approximates what is called private property rights but this is an area that quite rightly should be looked at in the same venue in which we look at how we have done an excellent job of regulating the horse processing industry, for example. Every horse that is brought to the plan is inspected. This constant statement of stolen horses is not true. Now, when I say that, there is always the possibility that one is going to slip through the cracks. It is like the unloading of the double-decker trucks. Every horse that is euthanized in a processing plant, it is done under the supervision of a veterinarian. That is not true in other countries of the world. So, this is where there is a lot of needs out there by those who advocate the abolition of horse slaughter in this case without ever answering the question what is going to happen to the 100,000 unwanted horses and how are they going to be regulated and under what conditions. We are seeing it all over the country now, all over the country in which we are already beginning to see inhumane treatment of horses by people who have good intentions. Mr. Goodlatte. I take it if that sanctuary is not inspected under the Federal Animal Welfare Act, than other sanctuaries for animals are not inspected as well. Is that correct? Mr. Stenholm. That is my understanding because in our pursuit of legislation and pursuit of bigger and better laws, I guess is what you would say, that is one area that has not been looked at to the same degree that we have in all of other production agriculture. We got a double standard. Mr. Goodlatte. I see periodically, even under the current circumstances where there are clearly not enough sanctuaries for unwanted animals, horses included, of course, in existence right now, I see periodic reports even of the number that exist today of animals not treated well where local authorities intercede to take action for animals that are underfed or not given proper treatment or medical care. Do you think that is a circumstance that ought to be regulated? Mr. Stenholm. That is always a tough call for me because I think we have got plenty of regulation in so many areas and I always hesitate before I answer a question of that nature. It is tremendously costly. I think that is something that we would want to look at. Certainly if we are going to follow the line that some are advocating in which you are going to have more and more unwanted horses that have to be cared for, more and more unwanted other animals that have to be cared for. At some point in time I think you are going to see a clamor for it. But in the same vein in which we have as production agriculture, as we have constantly and consistently upgraded our laws and regulations to meet the sincere requirements or the commonsense requirements for humane treatment of animals, it is amazing that we have kind of excused some of the other side from any of that. Mr. Goodlatte. I see my time is almost expired. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Boswell. Thank you, Mr. Goodlatte. The chair at this time would recognize the gentleman from California, Mr. Cardoza. Mr. Cardoza has stepped out. Okay. Mr. Lampson stepped out. I am just catching up here. I guess I should keep up with everybody who is coming and going. Mr. Kagen. Mr. Kagen. I didn't chase anybody out, Mr. Chairman. They left on their own. Congressman Stenholm, I am new in Congress, a little over 110 or 120 days, and I want to thank you for your years of service. I have got to ask you, do you miss being a Congressman? Mr. Stenholm. I don't miss the hours you are keeping and I don't miss the controversy that you are involved in. It feels pretty good to be up here telling you what you ought to do. Mr. Kagen. Well, my father raises horses and he told me when I came to Congress I would be getting a lot of advice and I appreciate your advice, but you served on this committee before and you have seen these issues come up before in terms of animal welfare. Has anything changed over the years in terms of your point of view, not just back home but also here in Congress in terms of how you feel Congress could make a difference on the farm or in agricultural control of animals? Mr. Stenholm. Yes, I have seen dramatic changes from--this will be my 8th farm bill that I have participated in, 2 before Congress, 5 in and 1 now after Congress. It used to be back in the good old days, as was said, that only had to consult 3 entities to write a farm bill, or any issue. One was the House and Senate Ag committees, 2 was USDA, and 3 was the farm organizations. Well, we now have hundreds if not thousands of organizations that have an interest and again, as I said in my testimony, have every right to have input into the policies of our food production system but it makes for a much more complex situation and it makes the difficulty of finding a majority vote that is helpful is a lot more challenging than it was 28 years ago when I sat not in that chair but down here. Mr. Kagen. Well, would you agree that there is an economic interest on all people in agriculture who raise animals for eventual slaughter or for use in food production to keep their animals happy and healthy and their general welfare? Isn't there an economic interest to keep them in that condition? Mr. Stenholm. Absolutely. Here again, I respect all opinions. My opinion differs from what is humane treatment and the most acceptable from some of the animal rights folks. That is the biggest disagreement I have with the idea that animals have rights like humans have rights. All animals deserve to be humanely treated from birth until death, period. Definitions of humane treatment from birth until death differ, particularly with those of us who raise animals and those who only consider them pets. Mr. Kagen. Very good. Thank you very much. I yield back my time. Mr. Boswell. Thank you. The chair now recognizes the gentleman from Texas, Mr. Conaway. Mr. Conaway. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Welcome, Charlie. Good to see you here this morning. There has also been restrictions placed on our ability to manage wild horses and wild burros on Federal lands being swept into this whole issue as well. What is your understanding of how those excess horses and burros are being warehoused? Mr. Stenholm. This is an interesting phenomenon that we have today because in the wisdom of Congress several years ago, we decided that excess wild horses could not be processed for human consumption and therefore must be preserved until their natural death or they are adopted and most of us in production agriculture agree that adoption of wild horses is the preferred alternative. The last resort is slaughter for human consumption. But now we have somewhere around 30,000 wild horses unadoptable, unwanted that are being fed in feed lots and other pasture operations at a cost to taxpayers approximating $50 million a year and we are going to add another 4,000 surplus horses to that number this year. Now, here is where I have a little bit of problem with what I guess kindly I would have to say is a little hypocrisy because many of the same groups that say it is inhumane to keep wild animals in zoos say it is perfectly all right to keep a wild animal in a pen, a wild horse or a wild burro. Now, that is where common sense gets in the way of good policy and that is why it is so emotional. But we are talking about real horse owners, the majority of which disagree with the majority of Congress and with the majority of this House voted and a majority of the Senate committee. They will tell you privately, we understand but it is emotionalism and that is scary but you bring up a point that again common sense needs to be prevailing in this and it doesn't make sense to spend $50 million a year feeding unwanted wild horses. Mr. Conaway. My second question was going to be, if those feed lots were zoos, would they meet standards for maintaining animals? A horse is a roaming type of an animal and to keep it locked in the feed lot for years, cattle go into feed lots for a limited amount of time but putting a horse into a feed lot environment for the rest of its natural days to me seems noticeably cruel. Mr. Stenholm. I have to assume that they are because that is under the jurisdiction of the BLM and I have to assume that the regulations like Mr. Goodlatte was asking about, private facilities, do not apply there but I think this is a question that I would recommend to this committee to ask the appropriate committee in the Interior to do a little oversight on this. I don't think we have done any oversight that I can remember and that is a long time. Mr. Conaway. We have asked for pictures and we are trying to get those. Let me ask you this. Under the Fifth Amendment, by taking personal property away from folks, which is in effect what this destroying the horse processing business does, do you see the Federal Government having a responsibility for all of these abandoned horses as a result of not being able to sell them into a market that previously existed? In other words, is there an unfunded mandate that we passed that forces counties to now take care of these horses that are abandoned? Should that be the Federal Government's responsibility to assume responsibility for those horses that this business has taken out by these new regulations, new laws? Mr. Stenholm. Only if the Federal Government insists on following a procedure in which the Federal Government determines what is going to happen to the unwanted horses. Then I think it is natural the Federal Government should assume the responsibility. It is like what we have done with wild horses. We have assumed that. But, I have been working with the livestock marketing association. The first people that have come in contact now with this unwanted horse phenomenon has been the people bringing their horse in to the livestock auction to sell it and they are being turned away because they are being told we can't buy your horse; what do you mean, you can't buy my horse? The Federal Government has now provided laws enforced by the courts so far that we can't buy your horse to go to a processing plant. What do you mean, you can't buy my horse? It is my horse. Mr. Conaway. Well, actually I can't sell my horse. Mr. Stenholm. Yes. Mr. Conaway. Or, why can't I sell my horse? Mr. Stenholm. Why can't I sell my horse, why can't you buy my horse? That is a good question and it is one the legal courts are ultimately going to have to decide of which I believe as you, I believe by the nature of your question, believe, it is a private property right. Taking away that right is bordering on unconstitutionality. Mr. Conaway. Thank you, Mr. Stenholm. Mr. Chairman, I yield back. Mr. Boswell. Thank you. The chair at this time would recognize the gentleman from California, Mr. Costa. Mr. Costa. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate the opportunity to hear from our distinguished colleague and friend who I think is well respected, as it has already been established. In your testimony, Mr. Stenholm, you talked about what constitutes in your mind animal welfare that is reflective of the care that I think we all want to see provided whether we are talking about one person's animals or whether we are talking about, in the case of animal and livestock industries, business efforts that also constitute proper care of animals. Have you or your organization had an opportunity beyond Texas to look at and examine or your organization the list of animal welfare laws that exist in the country today, and if your organization has, do you have an ability to reflect on what areas and which States are working better than others? It seems to me that under the theory that, you know, there is really not that much that is new under a lot of this, that taking a reflection of what a lot of States have done, some efforts have been I think positive, some have not worked as intended and some have always faced, as I like to say, the law of unintended consequences. I am wondering if you could give us a snapshot in terms of what you sense, what your organization senses as occurring around the country. Mr. Stenholm. Well, we have got more and more States getting involved in determining what is humane and inhumane treatment of animals. That is one of the concerns that I bring to this committee. You know, at some point we have got to have some uniformity in what the standards are. It is going to be an impossible situation to have differing States with differing rules and regulations in modern commerce. You know, we have had the attacks on the veal industry and certain States have outlawed veal production. We have had the sow stalls controversy now that is creating a lot of consternation in the pork industry and again, sow stalls and what you replace them with or what you do to me always needs to be based on the sound science and what is best for the pigs. There are different opinions on that. Different States are beginning to involve themselves. Ranking Member Goodlatte mentioned the need of regulation in States of some of the animal welfare groups that are going to be there. You are going to hear in just a moment that there is a big effort now to provide for animal shelters. That is great, but under what Federal supervision and should it be State supervision? These are questions that you are going to have to answer. I specifically speak to the horse issue but right now we are in the process of attempting to repeal the law in Texas prohibiting it. As I speak, there is a hearing and a protest in Illinois regarding the banning of the Cavel processing plant. The protest is coming from horse owners saying to Illinois, please don't ban horse processing in the State of Illinois. You are going to see more and more of this because it is so emotional and it is so sensational for those on the other side. It is difficult to stand up in a State legislature where you served so well for so many years. You know the difficulty of dealing with emotionalism and the different States doing it is going to wreck havoc on an animal industry. Mr. Costa. In the remainder of my time, I would like to make a suggestion and that is that you, with some of the other organizations that are so concerned and I think appropriately so, possibly set up a type of a workshop and maybe we do it in conjunction with the subcommittee with organizations like the National Conference of State Legislatures, with possibly the National Governors Association. I mean, I think there needs to be a matrix, Mr. Chairman, as we look at what laws exist around the country and see if we can get a better understanding of the challenges out there, what has worked, what has not worked, and see if we can bring about some level of consensus and uniformity because frankly, I think this current situation status quo is not helpful to the industry. It is not helpful to humane treatment for animals in areas where we can I think have agreement and it seems to me something that we could work on. Mr. Stenholm. Mr. Costa, there is an effort, I believe they are called the Animal Alliance, that is set up on the agriculture side to help do just what you are suggesting and I think that you will be hearing from them quite often. Mr. Boswell. Thank you for the suggestion. The chair at this time would recognize the gentleman from Nebraska, Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, Congressman Stenholm, for appearing before us today. Growing up in rural America, certainly I have always paid a lot of attention to animal issues, livestock issues, and most recently, or more recently I should say, it has been brought to my attention the commitment that having animals on the premises entails, whether it is a small dog or cat or certainly a horse, and the financial commitment of caring appropriately whether it is the feeding or veterinary expenses as well. You touched a little bit on the cost of caring for these wild horses and certainly that was a new number for me. It has been brought to my attention in my district that there is a concern that you have touched on a bit of what do we do with the unwanted horses and there has been some concern expressed in my district that a rancher might find some unwanted horses on his or her property. What then? I mean, are you aware of what the options a rancher might have, that are liability issues and certainly in light of Federal penalties that may exist? Could you please elaborate? Mr. Stenholm. You bring up a very good question, and if it is on a ranch and the horse is unwanted, it probably will be euthanized with a bullet and allowed--well, it probably won't even be buried and nobody will ever know about it. But if you are in a non-rural area, you have a problem. Landfills in many cities will not accept large animals so you don't have the option of euthanasia by a veterinarian, and here it is interesting to me when you hear--there are three ways of euthanizing that unwanted horse. One is captive bolt, which is the most humane, two is bullet, and three is overdose of barbiturates. Talk to any veterinarian and they will tell you that overdose of barbiturates is not the most humane way to end your horse's life. That is what veterinarians tell us. And we are already seeing this happening. We are seeing it reportedly in Kentucky now, these are thoroughbreds, and contrary to what you hear from California, talk to the livestock auctions and listen to them what is happening there with mistreated horses that come in to them. People bring them in because they find them wandering. People don't have the wherewithal financially to deal with that question. Renderers, we don't have many of those left. In some cases that is an option but you have to pay somebody to come get your horse. That gets into what Mr. Conaway was talking about a moment ago. What makes the Federal Government believe that we in our super wisdom can take away the private property right of that individual rancher who finds that horse to take it and receive value from if it is still of value? What makes us believe that we can do this constitutionally, but those are the choices that you are putting on those ranchers that you are talking about. Mr. Smith. Thank you. I yield back. Mr. Boswell. Thank you. The chair at this time would recognize the gentleman from Michigan, Mr. Walberg. Mr. Walberg. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I just have one question and I hope it wasn't asked before I entered the room but I will take the chance on that. Someone said that if we continue down the path that we are on presently in relation to animal welfare, specifically the horse slaughter bill, that we are basically beginning the roadmap to the end of taking meat, pork, poultry and other meats off the dinner table. Now, that is a statement I have heard numerous times in the past several weeks, and I would, Mr. Stenholm, be interested in just seeing how you respond to that. Is that a path that indeed we are taking or is that just a scare tactic? Mr. Stenholm. I have to say that there are those, I don't brand everyone, I don't want to say everyone on the animal welfare side is one of these. I don't say that, but there are those, and I don't see how even those that are argue that they are just for the humane treatment but we don't want to eliminate animal agriculture can square that with some of the decisions that are now being made regarding how animal agriculture shall function for the humane treatment of animals. And when you specifically look at one form of livestock, horses, you are having a major effect on the economy of an industry that is $39 billion by itself, over $100 billion in economic activity, and when you remove the floor price for the unwanted horse, which is what you do when you remove the process buyer, you are reducing the value of all horses in the United States of which we have economists at universities that have estimated somewhere between $100 and $200 per horse. That is a pretty good blow to an industry. Now, there will be those that say well, that is just horses, horses are different. They are not different. Horses are livestock. They are different to you if you own the horse and we make it very clear, if you own a horse and do not wish it to be processed for human consumption, we are for you, don't sell your horse, euthanize it yourself, take it to a renderer. If you are more comfortable having your horse piled on top of a garbage heap after it has been euthanized rather than having it consumed in countries that do it, we are for you. That is called private property rights. All we are saying is, it is a slippery slope, and remember, the same folks are out to eliminate zoos because it is inhumane to keep animals in pens. You have to be the judge. And I just say, let us be careful before we take the first step down the slippery slope. Let us have everyone with a smile on their face acknowledge, I am for the humane treatment of animals. I believe Wayne Pacelle, you will hear from the Humane Society, is for the humane treatment of animals. I believe that. But we have different opinions of what the facts are of humane treatment. That is the political side of this that has really gotten on a slippery slope and with the 300 million Americans who only see what you have seen on your Internet and the movies that are being shown about how horses are slaughtered, how they are brought to market, how they are mistreated, if that is all you see, you tell me where the votes are going to be and why you are having such a difficulty with your own constituency dealing with this one. And when you have $100 million to spend on the campaigns and the politics and the media, get ready for the slippery slope to take off. Mr. Walberg. I appreciate the response. I yield back. Mr. Boswell. Thank you. The chair recognizes the lady from Ohio, Congresswoman Schmidt. Ms. Schmidt. Thank you, sir. I didn't have any questions. Mr. Boswell. Okay. That is fine. That completes our first round of questions. Does anybody on either side have other questions? Okay. With that, I would thank you, Mr. Stenholm, we appreciate your testimony and we would ask that the second panel would come to the table. I thank the second panel for coming to the table, and by matter of introduction, we have beginning Mr. Wayne Pacelle, President and CEO of the Humane Society of the United States, Washington, D.C. Welcome, Wayne. Glad to have you here. Dr. Gail Golab, Ph.D., DVM, Associate Director of Animal Welfare Division, American Veterinary Medical Association. We have Mr. Steven Leary, DVM, Assistant Vice Chancellor of Veterinary Affairs, Washington University, on behalf of the National Association of Biomedical Research of St. Louis, Missouri. We have Mr. Gene Gregory, President of United Egg Producers from Alpharetta, Georgia. We have Mr. Guillermo Gonzalez, Owner, Sonoma Foie Gras, on behalf of Artisan Farmers Alliance, Sonoma, California. And last but not least, finally, Mr. David Martosko, Director of Research, Center for Consumer Freedom of Washington, DC. So with that, we welcome you all. We appreciate you being here. We would like for you, Mr. Pacelle, to please begin when you are ready. STATEMENT OF WAYNE PACELLE, PRESIDENT AND CEO, THE HUMANE SOCIETY OF THE UNITED STATES, WASHINGTON, DC. Mr. Pacelle. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you for inviting me to testify. I am Wayne Pacelle, President and CEO of the Humane Society of the United States. I feel a little bit unusual in this circumstance, having heard Congressman Stenholm. Congressman Stenholm is a respected member of the community in Washington and Texas, served a long time, but what he did was seek to caricature animal advocates. I represent just one organization, one of 10,000 organizations that exist in this country, charitable organizations that work to alleviate suffering and protect animals from needless cruelty. Just our organization has 10 million supporters, which is one of every 30 Americans in the country. Mr. Stenholm and some of the others whom you will hear from today are seeking to caricature the entire cause of animal protection as a bunch of folks who want to stop zoos and meat eating and all animal research, and it is false. If you look at the issues that the Humane Society works on, we work on particular abuses that are out of step with prevailing public sentiment in this country. Look at every issue that we are behind in this Congress and you will see strong support among the American public for our position. Unfortunately, historically, and we hope that this committee marks a break from the past. This committee has completely abrogated its responsibility to have proper oversight on animal welfare issues. This is the first hearing on animal welfare other than an animal fighting bill in 2000 that has been held on production agriculture since 1989, 18 years, and this committee which has authorized and responsibility for animal welfare programs hasn't had any action on these issues. The USDA unfortunately has also grown very close to the industry and we have an unregulated situation where there are basically no protections for farm animals at the Federal level in production agriculture. There is a humane slaughter act that the humane community pushed and there is a transport law that was first passed in 1873 that the USDA had not enforced until HSUS pushed for its active enforcement. I just want to mention a couple of examples to talk about how our policies truly are sensible and how we hear this hysterical exaggeration about the consequences of the adoption of our preferred set of policies. One is the issue of gestation crates. These are 2-foot by 7-foot cages that breeding sows are housed in for their entire gestation period, for the pre- birthing period, and they are taken out of the gestation crate just before giving birth and then they give birth in a farrowing crate, then they are put back into the gestation crate. They may endure 7, 8, 9, 10 successive pregnancies in a 2-foot by 7-foot cage in which they cannot turn around. These are curious animals that like to root around in the mud. When this issue was put to voters in Florida, when it was put to voters in Arizona, the industry, Mr. Stenholm and others said this will be the demise of the pork industry, it will be the end of animal agriculture in terms of hog production. And what we have seen after voters overwhelmingly approved the measures in both States was that the largest pig producer in the world, Smithfield, has voluntarily agreed to phase out gestation crates over a 10-year period. We also heard apocalyptic comments about downed animal protection. You know, downers are livestock too sick or injured to walk and a number of members of this House have pushed to stop the policy of abusing downed animals and dragging them into slaughter houses for processing for human consumption. It was Mr. Stenholm on the Floor of the House who said in 2003 that no sick animal, no BSE-positive animal, no mad cow can ever get into the food supply, and it was just 6 months later that a downer cow with BSE found its way into the food supply. The consequence of that was pretty severe but it wasn't severe in terms of the animal welfare issues. It was severe in terms of the economic impact of the industry because 44 nations closed their doors to American beef products. The USDA passed an administrative rule to ban downers in 2003 and we have seen no adverse impact of a downer ban being imposed. And we can go on and on. This canard about horse slaughter, there were 350,000 horses being slaughtered in the early 1990s. Now there is about 100,000. Where did these 250,000 horses go? They have been absorbed into this country because there are a network of sanctuaries and there is also the matter of responsible ownership of animals and how people who are taking animals, certainly horses, have a responsibility to care for them, and euthanasia is an option on site rather than transporting them 1,000 or 1,500 miles. In terms of specific policy proposals, Mr. Chairman, there is a bill called the Farm Animal Stewardship Purchasing Act that deals with some of the worst abuses and intensive confinement livestock agriculture including gestation crates, veal crates and battery cages. We are seeing tremendous change in the private sector already. I have mentioned some of the public policy changes. Maple Leaf Foods, the largest pig producer in Canada has said it will stop using gestation crates. Two of the largest veal producers, Strauss Farms and Marcho Farms, have said that they are going to stop crating young male veal calves, and the head of Strauss called the crates inhumane and archaic. In terms of battery cage production, which is the predominant egg laying system, each bird under the United Egg Producers standards gets 2/3 of an 8-1/2 by 11 sheet of paper to live her life in, 8-1/2 by 11, 67 square inches. This is the living space for these animals. Now, we can talk all about radical animal rights activism, we can hear caricatures of the animal welfare movement but the fact is, if this is acceptable as a living space for an egg laying hen, then, this is not he world I am living in. The public is appalled by the idea that animals are intensively confined for such long periods during their lifetimes. We are advocating that the Congress include poultry under humane slaughter. Mr. Boswell. The rest of your testimony, Mr. Pacelle, will be placed in the record but time has expired and we appreciate your enthusiasm, so---- Mr. Pacelle. May I just close? Mr. Boswell. You may make a short closing remark if you wish and then we will move on. Mr. Pacelle. Thank you. We are very hopeful that the Congress will include an animal welfare title in the farm bill. This is an issue that has been long ignored. When the committee ignores it, the issue gets addressed in other committees in this Congress. It is time for this committee to address these issues. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. [The prepared statement of Mr. Pacelle appears at the conclusion of the hearing:] Mr. Boswell. Thank you. Dr. Golab. STATEMENT OF DR. GAIL C. GOLAB, PH.D., DVM, ASSOCIATE DIRECTOR, ANIMAL WELFARE DIVISION, AMERICAN VETERINARY MEDICAL ASSOCIATION, SCHAUMBURG, ILLINOIS Ms. Golab. Mr. Chairman and members of the subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to provide comment on behalf of the American Veterinary Medical Association. The AVMA comprises more than 75,000 members and represents approximately 86 percent of the Nation's practicing veterinarians. Animal welfare is of primary importance to the veterinary profession and therefore primary importance to the AVMA. This hearing will highlight some differences that exist among stakeholders with regard to how we believe animals should be used and cared for. An important underlying truth, however, is that most people in the United States believe it is acceptable to use animals for food and fiber as long as the welfare of those animals is good. But what is good welfare? When evaluating animal welfare, it is important to be clear what people mean. Animal producers tend to cite elements of good health and performance as evidence of good welfare whereas animal activists are often most comfortable when animals are allowed to live in natural environments. This dichotomy of use is a result of different experiences leading to different value frameworks. The AVMA believes animal welfare science is an important tool that can be used successfully to bridge these dichotomies. Although the degree of importance attributed to each element making up an animal's welfare state may vary, the AVMA believes no assessment is complete unless all elements are considered. It is not satisfactory, for example, to judge the welfare of an animal on the basis of its physical health without regard to whether it is suffering or frustrated nor is it appropriate to conclude that an animal that can engage in species-typical behaviors has a good state of welfare without also evaluating its health and biologic function. Veterinarians by virtue of their broad-based training are extraordinarily well positioned to integrate and bring the relevant elements of animal welfare science to the table to assist key decision makers like yourselves in making good decisions. Two issues currently under the microscope of animal welfare advocates can be used to demonstrate the power of animal welfare science to help make decisions and ensure positive animal welfare outcomes. These issues are space allowances and cages housing laying hens and usage of station stalls to house pregnant sows. With respect to cages, the egg industry pulled together a multidisciplinary, multistakeholder advisory committee and charged them with making recommendations for revision of that industry's animal care guidelines. After conducting a scientific review, this advisory committee suggested cage space needed to be increased. By phasing in space allowances according to science-based parameters, hen welfare improved and economic benefits were also realized. This experience taught us two important things: first, that science could be used to help define and resolve an animal welfare problem, and second, that science should be used to help draft animal care guidelines rather than being called in after the fact. The use of gestation stalls is an example of where animal welfare science can point out fallacies and simplistic solutions. Comprising individuals representing expertise in multiple disciplines and multiple stakeholder interests, the AVMA's task force on the housing of pregnant sows conducted a comprehensive review of the scientific literature on housing systems with the intent of determining whether gestation stalls were appropriate. In this case, the science couldn't identify a particular system as being unequivocally superior but it did provide information suggesting that simply banning gestation stalls was probably not a quick and easy solution to improving sow welfare overall. Animal welfare is an increasing public interest but the American public has little direct connection with the actual process of raising animals for food and fiber. As a result, sometimes people become fixated on forcing changes that they think will improve animal welfare when in reality that might not be the case. At the same time, the public's desire for inexpensive, high-quality food products can create conflicts between human and animal interests and the industry's efforts to meet those demands and remain profitable. Pulling together societal expectations and industry needs means that guidelines for animal care must be both science-based and dynamic. Common sense and science depend on each other to reach sound conclusions on animal welfare. In acting on recommendations regarding animal welfare, the AVMA hopes Congress will ensure that, one, sound science serves as a basis for any recommended interventions; two, actions are consistent with the reason for the intervention and are based on a comprehensive risk assessment; three, responses are proportionate and a complete assessment of costs and benefits is performed; four, decisions are made in partnership with key stakeholders; and five, resulting actions will promote a sustainable agricultural industry as well as meet societal expectations. I have submitted a written statement with additional comments and materials for the subcommittee to consider and I ask that this information be included in the record of these proceedings. On behalf of my profession and our association, I sincerely thank you for the opportunity to appear today. [The prepared statement of Dr. Golab appears at the conclusion of the hearing:] Mr. Boswell. I recognize Mr. Leary. STATEMENT OF STEVEN L. LEARY, DVM, ASSISTANT VICE CHANCELLOR, VETERINARY AFFAIRS, WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY, ON BEHALF OF NATIONAL ASSOCIATION FOR BIOMEDICAL RESEARCH, ST. LOUIS, MISSOURI Mr. Leary. Thank you for allowing me to testify today and for conducting this hearing on animal welfare. By the way, Mr. Chairman, I was born and raised in Des Moines and graduated from Iowa State. It is nice to see you here. I am testifying today on behalf of the National Association for Biomedical Research. NABR is the only national nonprofit organization dedicated solely to advocating sound public policy that recognizes the vital role of humane animal use in biomedical research, higher education and product safety testing. Founded in 1979, NABR provides the unified voice for the scientific community on legislative and regulatory matters affecting laboratory animal research. NABR's membership is comprised of more than 300 public and private universities, medical and veterinary schools, teaching hospitals, voluntary health agencies, professional societies, pharmaceutical and biotechnology companies and other animal research-related firms. Animal research has played a vital role in virtually every medical advance of the last century for both human and animal health. Ample proof of the success of animal research can be found in the vast body of Nobel Prize-winning work in physiology and medicine where 68 awardees since 1901 have relied at least in part on animal research. Thanks to animal research, many diseases that once killed millions of people every year are either treatable or have been eradicated all together. Six of the discoveries related to cancer using animals were recognized with the Nobel Prize, among them bone marrow transplantation, cloning of the first gene and the discovery that a normal cell could have latent cancer genes. Animal research for animal health has also resulted in many remarkable life-saving and life-extending treatments for animals. Pacemakers, artificial joints, organ transplants and vaccines contribute to longer, happier and healthier lives for animals. Through research with animals, sciences are learning more every day. Key findings from a recent national public opinion survey on animal research found overwhelming support. In fact, 81 percent agree with medical and scientific research using laboratory animals if they believe it will help alleviate suffering from a serious disease. Animal research is still a requirement. Research on animals is in many cases an obligation that prevents humans from being used as medical guinea pigs. The Declaration of Helsinki states that medical research on human subjects should be based on accurately performed laboratory and animal experimentation. Responsible regulation is a very important component of oversight to instill public confidence in animal research. Congress already has provided the mechanism for assurances of proper care and treatment of laboratory animals with the 1966 enactment of the Animal Welfare Act and multiple subsequent amendments. For example, the 1985 amendments require the establishment of the Institutional Animal Care and Use Committee, or IACUC. The IACUC, which is taken very seriously by each research institution, is an internal committee that is charged with reviewing, approving and monitoring research protocols. IACUC approval for a proposed research project must be acquired before any government funds can be secured and any animals used. Many institutions have gone above and beyond what is required of them by the law. Ninety-nine of the top 100 NIH awardee institutions have voluntarily sought accreditation with the association for Assessment and Accreditation of Laboratory Animal Care. In addition, a number of non-animal procedures and tests have been developed to supplement animal research. Computer modeling and in vitro testing serve as valuable adjuncts to basic animal research but there is still no replacement for animal research. In conclusion, we are all challenged with that delicate balance of ensuring the public trust and the highest standard of care for laboratory animals with a regulatory mandate that still allows the freedom of inquiry so important to medical discovery. We who are directly involved with animal research share this challenge and concern. In fact, it is that very concern which has drawn many of us to choose careers in veterinary medicine or medical research. We too have family members who contract diseases. We too have pets that become ill. For these reasons, we are dedicated to finding ways to cure both human and animal ailments. In the words of the esteemed Dr. Michael E. DeBakey, chancellor emeritus of the Baylor College of Medicine and director of the DeBakey Heart Center: ``These scientists, veterinarians, physicians, surgeons and others who do research in animal labs are as much concerned about the care of the animals as anyone can be. Their respect for the dignity of life and compassion for the sick and disabled in fact is what motivated them to search for ways of relieving the pain and suffering caused by diseases.'' Thank you, Mr. Chairman and members of the subcommittee again for this opportunity to testify. [The prepared statement of Dr. Leary appears at the conclusion of the hearing:] Mr. Boswell. Thank you, Mr. Leary. We will recognize Mr. Gregory. STATEMENT OF GENE GREGORY, PRESIDENT, UNITED EGG PRODUCERS, ALPHARETTA, GEORGIA Mr. Gregory. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My name is Gene Gregory and I am the President of United Egg Producers. I have worked for UEP for the past 25 years. Earlier in my career, I was in the egg business working for Corn Belt Hatcheries in central Illinois for more than 20 years. About 90 percent of all the eggs in the United States are produced by our UEP members. We are a farm cooperative and we also administer a program of animal husbandry standards called the UEP Certified Program, which I will discuss later. UEP prides itself on being a forward-looking, proactive organization. We have helped our industry respond to environmental concerns, animal diseases and other challenges. We approach animal welfare in the same spirit. It is increasingly important to our customers in food retailing and food service and to American consumers. Unfortunately, this is also a subject that lends itself to emotional, unsubstantiated allegations and extreme tactics. If we reduce animal welfare to emotion or subject views of what feels right, we will base the care of animals of nothing more than opinion and endless argument. That is not good enough. Instead, we need to use science. That is why in 1999 UEP commissioned an unpaid scientific advisory committee to review the animal welfare standards we had at the time and advise us about science-based changes we should make. The chair of that committee, Dr. Jeffrey Armstrong, is a dean of the College of Agriculture and Natural Resources at Michigan State University. He brought together nine other scientists and together they recommended significant changes in egg production practices. Today about 85 percent of our industry has implemented these standards including an increase in the amount of space for each bird in cage production systems with the increase ranging from 26 to 40. Dr. Armstrong has written on behalf of the entire committee saying we believe these guidelines set the baseline for humane care. The committee's recommendations became what is now the UEP Certified Program. This program features a trademark seal approved by the Federal Trade Commission and the USDA that producers that can place on their egg cartons if they adhere to the UEP Certified guidelines. Every participating producer is subject to an annual third-party audit by the USDA's Agriculture Marketing Service or Validus Services, and if a producer wants to be a part of the UEP Certified program, all of that producer's operations must conform to our animal care standards. We are confident that our program reflects the best science. Many of the scientists on our committee have also helped developed standards for major food service chains such as McDonald's and Burger King. Our program also has been endorsed by the Food Marketing Institute representing the Nations' major food retailers and the National Council of Chain Restaurants. At UEP, we are in favor of consumers having choices including cage-free, free-range and organic eggs which some of our members produce. However, we vigorously dispute the proposition that only free-range or cage-free production is humane. We disagree with that view and so does our scientific advisory committee. Cage housing systems protect birds from predators and diseases such a highly pathogenic avian influenza. Cage systems also may reduce pecking and other aggressive behavior including cannibalism. The way eggs are handled in cage systems may also reduce the chances that the outside of the egg will be contaminated with its feces, offering a food safety benefit. If consumer choices are restricted as some animal rights activists would like to do, the consequences would be higher food costs for low-income Americans and a greater strain on our land resources. If all U.S. production had to be free range, consumers would have to pay an additional $4.65 billion every year for eggs and we would need to find additional land resources roughly the size of the State of Delaware. Frankly, there is nothing our industry could do short of all declaring bankruptcy and leaving the farm that would satisfy some of the activist groups. UEP has been a target of these groups, even as we have tried to implement the best science-based guidelines for the care of laying hens. UEP asks the members of this subcommittee to help us educate your colleagues about the importance of animal agriculture and the shortsightedness of legislation that would harm our industries. We ask you to resist amendments to the 2007 Farm Bill that would harm animal agriculture including efforts to set new and arbitrary standards for Federal procurement. The marketplace is the appropriate place to establish science-based standards that will allow consumers to make their own choices. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. [The prepared statement of Mr. Gregory appears at the conclusion of the hearing:] Mr. Boswell. Thank you, Mr. Gregory. Mr. Gonzalez. STATEMENT OF GUILLERMO GONZALEZ, OWNER, SONOMA FOIE GRAS, ON BEHALF OF ARTISAN FARMERS ALLIANCE, SONOMA, CALIFORNIA Mr. Gonzalez. Good morning, Chairman Boswell, Ranking Member Hayes and members of the subcommittee. My name is Guillermo Gonzalez. I am a farmer and the owner of Sonoma Foie Gras. I am here today on behalf of the Artisan Farmers Alliance, a new group that represents the three farms in the United States that produce foie gras. Thank you for the opportunity to set the record straight about our farming practices and to share with you the struggle of our three small farms to stay in business in the face of an aggressive assault by extremist animal activists. Foie gras is French for ``fat liver.'' It dates back to ancient Egypt where they depicted the hand feeding of waterfowl in colorful relief paintings. Over the centuries, it became an integral part of French cooking. As you may be able to tell from my accent, I am not French. I was born and raised in El Salvador. In the 1980s I moved to France to learn traditional foie gras farming techniques. Then in 1986, I moved to Sonoma County, California, and began to produce foie gras and other duck products. I operate a very small farm set in a walnut orchard southeast of Stockton in California's great Central Valley. Last year I raised 50,000 ducks. To put this in perspective, a modern poultry plant processes more birds in a single 8-hour shift than I do in an entire year. On my farm, we still use very traditional methods and I am proud of our operations. As anyone who has ever worked in animal agriculture will tell you, there is no one who cares more about animal welfare than farmers. My entire livelihood depends on the health of my flocks. The peer-reviewed scientific studies support our methods and conclude that the feeding does not create abnormal stress in ducks, and in each of the last 2 years the American Veterinary Medical Association has reviewed the foie gras issue and rejected calls to label it inhumane. Last year the AVMA sent a blue ribbon panel to review firsthand the operations on a foie gras farm. While we farmers focus on the objective science, we are attacked on the basis of emotional appeals. Of course we understand that some people will choose not to eat our product just as some people will choose not to eat beef or chicken or fish. That is their right. But what about the rights of other individuals to make their own decisions about what they do or do not eat? Huge multimillion-dollar organizations are trying to limit consumer choices and drive us out of business. They have tried to ban the sale of our USDA inspected and approved products in many jurisdictions and they have filed countless lawsuits against us in an effort to drive us out of our land and into bankruptcy. In many cases, activists have gone well beyond the law in their zeal to impose their views on others. My own farm and the two other U.S. foie gras farms, both in upstate New York, have been broken into and vandalized repeatedly. They trespass, damage our property, steal our animals and sometimes do much worse. In 2002, my wife and I took our retirement savings from years of hard work and decided to open a restaurant in Sonoma, California. As the construction was in progress, violent animal activists broke into the restaurant's historic building, filled the drains with concrete and turned on the water faucets. They scrawled on the wall ``stop or be stopped, death, scum, torturer.'' Perhaps even worse for me as an immigrant, they spray-painted ``Go home.'' The restaurant was ruined and we lost our savings. Bad as it was, I am lucky compared to my business partner. Activists stalked him and his family including his small child. Secretly, they videotaped them in their daily routines. One day his wife found a wrapped package containing the tape in their front yard with a note saying ``We are watching you.'' These stories highlight a disturbing trend. Acting in the name of animal rights, some seem to have forgotten the human rights of farmers. Animal rights groups need to realize that their inflammatory rhetoric has real consequences. They call me a torturer. Mr. Baur's own written testimony today equates animal agriculture with slavery. This subject of animal welfare needs less heat and more light. We need a discussion based on science, fact, reason and experience rather than emotional anthropomorphic appeals. This is increasingly important as fewer and fewer Americans have a personal experience with agriculture. The truth is that food doesn't come from supermarkets. It comes from the hard work of farmers and we ought to respect farmers for the hard work they do, not demonize them. Thank you for this opportunity to speak with you today. [The prepared statement of Mr. Gonzalez appears at the conclusion of the hearing:] Mr. Boswell. Thank you, Mr. Gonzalez. We would like to recognize now Mr. Martosko. STATEMENT OF DAVID MARTOSKO, DIRECTOR OF RESEARCH, CENTER FOR CONSUMER FREEDOM, WASHINGTON, DC. Mr. Martosko. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and members of the subcommittee for inviting me here today. I am David Martosko, Director of Research at the nonprofit Center for Consumer Freedom. We are based here in Washington and it is managed by Berman and Company, a public affairs and association management firm. Support for the center comes from members of the general public and from private industry including restaurant and food companies. I am very happy to see so many people here today who actually know something about animal agriculture but I must urge you to be skeptical of organizations that propose to extend human rights to animals. Groups like these do include the Humane Society of the United States, Farm Sanctuary, People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, PETA, and PETA's quasi- medical affiliate, the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine. These groups are all led by strict vegans who discourage Americans from eating any meat no matter how humanely it is raised. Now, that is not a caricature, that is a fact. When the topic of discussion is how to make livestock farming better, the complaints of radical vegans should be seen for what they are, an attempt to dismantle animal agriculture, not improve it. Their true agenda is to put livestock farmers out of business and we should all recognize their ulterior motives. Let me express this to you in political terms. What if Rush Limbaugh suggested that the Democratic National Committee should invite him into its planning meetings or what if Cindy Sheehan put her own name forward to moderate a Republican Party debate? Now, the last thing Cindy Sheehan wants is for the GOP to improve itself. She wants its marginalized and made less powerful. The same is true about Mr. Limbaugh and the DNC and it is also true of HSUS and the entire livestock food chain including farmers, ranchers, packers, restaurants and retailers. Encouraging the input of people who want to crush you is a strange way of seeking sensible reform. And keep in mind that despite its name, the Humane Society of the United States is not affiliated with any local humane society anywhere in the United States. Now, few Americans know this. So HSUS uses public goodwill that it doesn't deserve in order to raise millions, and all that money gives HSUS the power to unfairly attack just about every segment of animal agriculture. I was really pleased to hear Mr. Gonzalez speaking just before me, and look what has happened in the case of foie gras. HSUS and Farm Sanctuary aren't pushing for animal welfare reform, they want abolition. They are trying to outlaw a kind of animal protein that many people enjoy. Now, I have never tasted foie gras but who are these people to decide I shouldn't have the chance to try it? When zealots ban books because of their politics, millions of us rise up. Why isn't banning food for political reasons viewed the same way? And what is next? A speakeasy where a secret password will be required to get a veal cutlet? Wouldn't that be ironic too? Veal farmers spend tons of money paying veterinarians to audit their farms. They provide a purpose for male dairy calves that would otherwise be destroyed at birth. HSUS and Farm Sanctuary ought to be promoting veal but they would rather see it disappear to make room for a vegan utopia and besides, it is good for fundraising. In 2005, after the Humane Society of the U.S. released its guide to vegetarian eating, one manager of the group told the animal rights movement magazine that his organization's goals include, and I quote, ``promoting vegetarian eating.'' And Mr. Pacelle said HSUS was ``doing a guide to vegetarian eating to really make the case for it.'' Just last week HSUS ranked U.S. cities according to what it calls a humane index, and one part of the index which they call humane eats, it is a scorecard, it judges how humane a city's dining options are by counting just one thing: the number of vegetarian restaurants per capita. That is all they care about. HSUS is judging that only meatless eating should be considered humane. You see, no matter how much farmers take their animals' welfare into account, animal rights leaders won't be satisfied until all animal protein disappears from our diets. The truth is that HSUS and PETA share the same long-term goals: no meat, no dairy, no animal ag, period, more rights for animals, fewer for you and me. HSUS is basically PETA with a nicer wristwatch and fewer naked interns. Now, please don't misunderstand me. My organization is not an anti-vegetarian group. We are interested in protecting all dietary choices including those of the tiny segment of Americans who choose to be vegetarians. It is a free country. But when groups with huge budgets mislead Americans about food they don't believe we should be allowed to choose, that is not fair. For instance, right now on HSUS's website, they overstate the fat content of chicken by over 500 percent in order to discourage people from eating it. That is not fair. Now, I can almost understand why animal rights groups spread this kind of misinformation. If you believe that a veal calf or a breeding sow or a lab rate is worth the same as my mother or your daughter, then of course it is remarkably easy to invent moral justifications for cutting factual corners or breaking election finance law as Farm Sanctuary did hundreds of times in the 2002 Florida elections, or even in the case of ones spokesperson for the Physicians Committee for Responsible Medicine, advocating the murder of people who don't agree with you. I will leave you with this last thought. Congress could require U.S. farmers to supply every pig, chicken, duck and cow with private rooms, daily rubdowns, video iPods, organic meals catered by Wolfgang Puck. You could do all of this but it still wouldn't satisfy activists who actually believe farm animals have the right not to be eaten no matter how they were raised. Thank you very much for inviting my testimony. [The prepared statement of Mr. Martosko appears at the conclusion of the hearing:] Mr. Boswell. Well, thank you, Mr. Martosko. You made several pretty strong statements. Are you saying that Mr. Pacelle and his organization do not want any human consumption of meat or animal? Mr. Martosko. Yes, absolutely, and their own literature and their own website points this out. Mr. Pacelle said that the reason they came up with the vegetarians guide was---- Mr. Boswell. I am reclaiming my time. Thank you. Mr. Pacelle, is that correct? Mr. Pacelle. No, it is absolutely incorrect as are a laundry list of other statements from Mr. Martosko, who today is attacking the Humane Society. On other days he attacks Mothers Against Drunk Driving for its efforts to keep people who are inebriated off the road, public health---- Mr. Boswell. You are expanding. Because of time--thank you. So you---- Mr. Martosko. Mr. Chairman, we support a program---- Mr. Boswell. Reclaiming my time. Hold on a second. I think you mentioned several times in your testimony that the organization prefers more humane methods of raising and slaughtering animals for consumption, so is it therefore true that the society has no problem with those who eat meat? Mr. Pacelle. Ninety-five percent of our members are meat eaters, Mr. Chairman, and---- Mr. Boswell. So you have no problem with that? Mr. Pacelle. No. If you look at the---- Mr. Boswell. Let me move on to another question because of time. Thank you very much. I was a little surprised in earlier testimonies regarding the amount of dollars accumulated by your organization and so a question comes to my mind, do you have sanctuaries scattered across the country? Do you have investments in those? Mr. Pacelle. Mr. Chairman, we have $5 and $10 and $15 and $20 donors, Americans from every State in the country, and as I mentioned, 10 million of them. They scrutinize all programs. All of our programs are advertised on our website and other materials. This is a program--Mr. Martosko and others are always fond of saying we don't care for animals. This is an entire guide about out animal shelter---- Mr. Boswell. No, come on. The question is, do you have sanctuaries for animals across the country or in---- Mr. Pacelle. We have three facilities that are entirely animal-related facilities. What we do is, we help shelters run better across the country. We don't run every shelter. There are thousands of them across the country. Mr. Boswell. But you do have shelters? Mr. Pacelle. We have several different kinds of shelters. We have an entire veterinary services program that goes into rural areas and last year handled 40,000 dogs and cats in the most rural areas in the country, just that one program, which is a small part of our program. Mr. Boswell. Okay. Last question and I will yield to Mr. Hayes. It has been called to my attention that the Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act in the last Congress that protected animal producers and families from extremist animal rights activists, your organization did not support that. Is that true? Mr. Pacelle. We have long opposed any illegal actions related to promoting animal protection. I have spoken on it publicly, and the people that have been condemned here today for going beyond the bounds of the law, we have joined in the course of criticizing. We were concerned about---- Mr. Boswell. So you did support the---- Mr. Pacelle. Because it had overreaching provisions that would have checked what we believe are protected speech activities. Mr. Boswell. So you did not support it then? Mr. Pacelle. Not in the form. We wanted to support it but we could not in the form that it was moved out of the committee. There was no markup on the bill. There was no hearing that allowed for any examination of those First Amendment questions. Mr. Boswell. Okay. Mr. Pacelle. But on our website is a strong statement against violent and illegal activities, and that is core to what we do. Mr. Boswell. I appreciate that. Mr. Hayes. Mr. Hayes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I will reserve my time. I don't have a question right now. Mr. Boswell. Mr. Kagen. Mr. Kagen. Thank you everyone for being here. With all this talk about food, I am getting kind of hungry, so I am going to just ask some yes or no questions. Mr. Pacelle, I would just like to know, do you live in the city or in the country? Because where I come from, if you come from the city you don't understand things are born and die every day. If you live in the country, you understand the whole circle of life. Do you live in the city? Mr. Pacelle. I live in a suburb. Mr. Kagen. And do you have pets in your house? Mr. Pacelle. Yes. Mr. Kagen. And so you are not eating your pets, you are not recommending people eat their pets. Am I correct? Mr. Pacelle. Correct. Mr. Kagen. And do you eat meat from chickens or eggs or cows? Mr. Pacelle. I am a vegetarian. Mr. Kagen. Okay. So you don't feel comfortable with the slaughtering of animals for consumption. Is that a fair statement? Mr. Pacelle. Excuse me? Mr. Kagen. You don't feel comfortable---- Mr. Pacelle. Personally? Mr. Kagen. Correct. Mr. Pacelle. I choose not to do it, yes. Mr. Kagen. Okay. And I am a person that feels that how you spend your money either as an individual or as a family or a Congress is a reflection of your values so in terms of percentages of your organization's budget, what percent of your budget for the Humane Society do you spend for the direct care of animals? Mr. Pacelle. We have the highest rating on the charity navigator regulatory group. It is a 4-star rating. Mr. Kagen. I don't know what that regulatory group is but I am just looking for a number. Mr. Pacelle. We are not only a direct care group. Other groups would like us to spend all of our money caring for animals. We work on policy issues. We work on a wide range of other issues. We work with corporations---- Mr. Kagen. I understand that, but what I am looking for is a number. Mr. Pacelle. I couldn't give you the percentage. We spend millions on direct care--millions. We take in--last year we had revenues from average Americans, not from the government, of $130 million. We spend millions on direct care of animals. Mr. Kagen. So that would be 1 percent, 2 percent? Mr. Pacelle. No. It depends which year. During Katrina---- Mr. Kagen. Maybe you could study that and get information to me. I would be very interested in that. Mr. Pacelle. I would be happy to. Mr. Kagen. And that is the end of my time, so I yield back. Thank you. Mr. Boswell. Thank you very much. The gentleman from Iowa, Mr. King. Mr. King. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I appreciate this hearing. I appreciate the testimony. This is a big issue facing all of us as we go forward to write this new farm bill. As I listen to this testimony, I direct my first question to Mr. Pacelle and that is, I would ask you if you could point out the statutes that you are referring to when you state that it is illegal to consume horseflesh in America. Mr. Pacelle. I don't believe I ever said that. Mr. King. You are on record as doing that and so I would ask---- Mr. Pacelle. Well, I would like---- Mr. King. --if you could provide--go ahead, Mr. Pacelle. Mr. Pacelle. No, I would like the context of the comment. It is often that people take comments out of context. Mr. King. Okay. This is a context of a complete article that you have posted on a website that has no source titled ``King Watch'' and so it is some of the information that you provided in my district that is by my position false and so I want to give you an opportunity to speak to that, but what I will do is, since you don't know about the facts of this, I would ask you to submit to the record a correction of that if you had an opportunity to do some research, because I think it would be important for this panel to understand if there are any laws out there in local jurisdictions that you might have been referring to at the time that might have passed, you might have forgotten. But I think we have established that case. But I wanted to spend my time more---- Mr. Pacelle. Well---- Mr. King. Oh, no, I am completed. Mr. Martosko, your testimony here today was emphatic enough to I think bring everybody's attention to this issue and I would ask you, as you looked at the organizations that you named that you say are determined to eliminate the livestock production industry in this country, there are a lot of threats to the livestock industry. We have diseases, 1, regulations, another, environmental regulations in particular. You have activist groups that are involved in legislation and litigation and BSE in the case of livestock. In fact, 1 of the organizations states that swine is also a sort of BSE and I don't find that to be the case. But of all of the things that threaten livestock, what is the greatest risk to the livestock industry in your opinion? Mr. Martosko. In my opinion, the greatest risk right now is the possibility that the Congress will take seriously the advice of people who have sworn never to eat meat in crafting policy that will damage farming. Mr. King. And I would ask Mr. Gonzalez, what is your greatest concern to the overall livestock industry or particularly your own, which I have not had the opportunity to try either. Mr. Gonzalez. My greatest concern is that national market for meat and poultry products can break down if every city and town starts banning USDA-approved products. Mr. King. Thank you. Dr. Golab, at least the implication, if not the statement, has been introduced into this record or made that swine can carry BSE. Do you have any knowledge of that? Mr. Golab. I am not aware that there has been direct evidence of that up to this point in time. Mr. King. In fact, I would point out there is a British study that fed concentrated quantities of BSE-carrying material to swine back when they had their--are you familiar with that study or at least have you read of it? Mr. Golab. No, I have not seen that study. Mr. King. Any studies that I can find establish that there is no connection, no link, no transfer from swine to any other animal that might be subject to potentially BSE. I also wanted to make a point that was just interesting to me. Mr. Chairman, I think you might enjoy this. I look back on some of the things that pop up in my mind as we have these discussions about particularly animal husbandry and I am thinking about back in the 1970s when, and I am pulling this off of memory, but when John McKay was coaching the UCLA Bruins to national championships, they had a center there named Bill Walton, about 6"11, a red-haired vegetarian. He did a good job as an All American center in basketball and I believe they won at least 1 national championship under him. He went on to play for the Seattle Supersonics, by my recollection. But his legs wouldn't hold up and they went to specialist after specialist, and finally 1 particular doctor said to him, you need to increase your fluids, you can't play 4 or 5 games a week; 1 or 2 was fine when you were in college but you are in the pros now and you need to increase your protein. So he recommended that Bill Walton increase his diet and take on beer and steak. Now, I am kind of in favor of those things and it is reported in the news that increasing that protein diet by going to that more protein concentrated including Pacific salmon was the first year that he had a good year and his legs held up. So I want to hold up the livestock industry and ensure that we can watch all kinds of competitive sports across America for a long time to come. I am interested in your industry and I am interested in our entertainment as well. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I would yield back. Mr. Boswell. Thank you, Mr. King. Just a question to the panel at large, and I would like to ask this. I know I have gotten contacts, a lot of efforts made throughout the industry whether it is all different types of agriculture production that you are putting a lot of effort into the science and study to try to give appreciation to the needs of animals and healthy environment and so on. Does anybody want to make any comment of what you are actually doing to try to meet the concerns that have been brought up to us today? Anybody? Mr. Pacelle. Mr. Chairman, there was just a study that came out of Iowa State University from, it was the Leopold Center and Iowa State study about sows in hoop barns as an alternative to gestation crates, and I believe that sort of work is happening around the country and it is showing that not only is it more humane for the animals but it is more efficient in terms of the productivity of the pigs and it is better from a manure management standpoint. All this talk, you know, I never bring up vegetarianism. The only thing I ever bring up vegetarianism is when people like Mr. Martosko and others try to caricature us. If you look at every policy reform that we advance, it is about making life a little better for creatures who are less powerful than we are, and this research validates that elemental notion that has always governed agriculture before it got so intensive: give an animal a little space, give an animal a little opportunity to turn around. Mr. Boswell. Any other members? Mr. Gregory? Mr. Gregory. Mr. Chairman---- Mr. Boswell. Mr. Gregory, just in your area because I am acquainted with a gentleman named Van Zetten. Now, you may know him, Blair, but he tells me, knowing this meeting was coming up we had a discussion and talked about the efforts that are made in the egg-laying industry to provide what the consumer wants, and I would like for you to address that a little bit from your perspective. Is it across the industry this happening or is Blair the only 1 that is doing it? Mr. Gregory. First of all, he is a friend of yours and mine so I will tell him that you asked about him. Blair is in the egg products business and his customers are companies that buy eggs as an ingredient to make other food items. So the ingredient-buying food manufacturing business has expressed an interest in their suppliers meeting animal welfare guidelines nearly at the speed by which retail groceries have done so. Our program is open and available and voluntarily people come to it and so we have said to Blair, whenever your customers are ready for it, we are happy to work with you, and we think that will happen one day. Could I say one other thing, Mr. Chairman, while we have the opportunity? I am really proud of our egg industry because I really believe that we can find solutions to most anything. Most any challenge that we are faced with, we try to resolve, and we try to do it in a way that we are critical about what we do. We think it is an example of how we have done it in animal welfare as with the science-based committee of which Dr. Golab is one of those committee members. We are doing the same thing now to try to solve environmental problems. We have a scientific panel headed by Dr. Hong Wa Shin at Iowa State. But you had asked a question earlier about what is our greatest concern. I actually believe we can solve almost every problem there is in our business except the thing that I am most fearful of is animal activists. They literally want to put all of animal agriculture out of business and they have broken into our facilities. They have presented distorted video, and when they talk about this university or this retailer or so and so making a switch to cage-free eggs, please understand, our producers also produce cage-free eggs and organic eggs and so we are not disparaging to any kind of system. We think there are advantages and disadvantages to all. But most retailers, most university dining facilities, et cetera, don't willingly make those choices. They make those choices after having been intimidated by some of the animal activist groups that are in this room today. So make sure that you understand that this doesn't happen just out of the goodwill of the people to do this. It comes through intimidation of the marketplace. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Pacelle. Mr. Chairman, can I answer that since it is kind of directed at us? Mr. Boswell. My time has run out. I will see if Mr. Hayes has a question and we will go from there. Mr. Hayes? Mr. Hayes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Dr. Golab, there are some implications beyond what we have talked about today. For example, in your medical veterinary opinion, ending the use of antibiotics in the livestock and poultry industry, how would such a ban, a blanket ban, affect the welfare of livestock on our farms and ranches and other associated issues? Ms. Golab. I am sorry. I didn't hear the last part of that. Mr. Hayes. Okay. Blanket ban on antibiotics in livestock, what other implication besides the livestock, include that as well, would be created by banning antibiotics in treating livestock? Ms. Golab. Well, if you take a look at what happened over in Europe when a certain proportion of antibiotics administered to livestock were prohibited, what you saw was that the amount of antibiotics administered to livestock for treatment purposes went up considerably. At the same time what you did not see is human resistance go down, which is what the primary concern has been with the use of antibiotics in livestock. What we see as veterinarians is increased disease, increased mortality. That is our principal concern at that point when you start eliminating preventive uses in particular. Mr. Hayes. I appreciate the comment and I think the point to be made is, some of these extreme positions that are held have not only unintended consequences but they are not victimless positions. Mr. Gonzalez, we applaud you for your efforts as a small businessman, immigrant to this country. You have raised some issues. Mr. Gregory has also raised issues. I think it is important because this Congress has passed the Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act, which if you think about, we should have never had to do because people should never have done the things that prompted us to have to do this, and I am particularly sensitive to you as an individual and a farmer, not an association. Are there other instances--and by the way, organizations are opposed and lobbied against the Animal Enterprise Terrorism Act, which is somewhat hypocritical with some of the statements that have been made here today. Have you had other experiences that you did not mention in your limited time for testimony that you think are valuable to this ongoing discussion? Mr. Gonzalez. Well, I want to support Mr. Gregory's statement in terms of changes being made in the marketplace as a result of intimidation and coercion. The particular case happening with the foie gras market is that all the restaurants are being blanketed with letters being sent by these organizations telling them that if they do not withdraw the product from their menus, they are going to be picketed, and obviously no restaurant, especially high-end restaurants, enjoys or wants their customers to be bothered with picketers on the outside and this is happening on a regular basis. Obviously, and this is probably the most important part of my testimony is, an invitation to these animal rights groups to tone down, to dial down their inflammatory rhetoric because nobody can tell when--it takes only one person to snap and it is very risky at the individual level, especially in our case of the foie gras producers that we are very clearly identified, and the way they portray us in the public eye is really putting our lives and our families at risk. So I made a respectful invitation to civility in this issue in order to tone down the rhetoric because it can have real consequences. The hate mail that I have received is regular. Just before the moment I was taking off to come to this meeting, I received one that you don't know who is going to be ticked off by this. I can go on and on but basically that is my main message. Mr. Hayes. I appreciate your presence here today. Mr. Gonzalez. Thank you. Mr. Hayes. The business of hate mail is extremely serious, but the fact that your restaurant was destroyed before it was ever completed kind of eliminated the picketing and I think it is important that the public knows that. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back. Mr. Boswell. Thank you. The chair recognizes the gentleman from Michigan, Mr. Walberg. Mr. Walberg. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Let me ask Dr. Golab, as a person who works with animals and handles the science side of this issue, what does current science say about the treatment of sows, cows, cattle and other animals that are processed for consumption? Ms. Golab. Well, I think that the single biggest issue that we take home, and this is important to me because I concentrate across issues rather than concentrating on a particular species, basically what it comes down to is that every single production system has its advantages and disadvantages, and one of our biggest concerns I think as an association and as a profession is when you take those systems and you try and piecemeal them, and what I mean by that is, you take pieces of a particular system and you try and take actions on those pieces rather than considering the system as a whole. When you do that, you can create situations where you have changed a piece of a system but the rest of the production has not caught up with a change. For example, if you were to suddenly move from stall housing systems for gestating sows to group systems without consideration for the type of animal that you have in that system, the individuals that are managing those animals, how that animal is fed, you could actually make the welfare of that animal considerably worse rather than better, and that is pretty true across the system irrespective of whatever piece of it you select. And so our great wish is that these would be considered as comprehensive systems, and if changes need to be made, because the public is uncomfortable with something, do it in such a way that we phase in those changes and we make sure that we retain the advantages of the particular system that we are presently using but resolve its disadvantages. Mr. Walberg. How do we compare with other nations? Ms. Golab. I am sorry. What? Mr. Walberg. How do we compare with other nations in the handling, the processing, the care for animals? Ms. Golab. I think in terms of other nations, you have to look at it in the context of what the philosophy is in those nations. The fact of the matter is, the way that animals are viewed differs and it is also a fact that depending upon the amount of resources that you have, depends how much you can devote to things like animal welfare. Certainly I think in comparison with industrialized systems, we are certainly among the best, if not the best, at what we do. Certainly in less industrialized nations, they are doing the best they can, I think, but they have to devote their resources and allocate those as necessary, and right now they are not able to provide as much resource in terms of animal welfare. Mr. Walberg. I want to move on with a few more questions as long as time remains here, and specifically asking Mr. Gregory, during the depression my father made it through as a chicken farmer and learned the value of the egg and I watched him in my young life train us in the value of the egg whether we liked it or not and sometimes devouring raw eggs because he still thought they were good for him, he lived to a ripe old age as well. But what do you do specifically to maintain the welfare of your animals, and especially considering these animals are your livelihood and source of revenue in the industry that you represent? I guess I am looking for specifics that show your intentions and show the lengths you go. Mr. Gregory. Well, first of all, sir, I am not an egg producer. I am the President of the United Egg Producers Association. So I would speak for what we ask of our producers to do, and that is that we believe that egg production can be humanely produced in cages or in cage-free systems, organic systems, whatever it may be, providing that the farmer, the producer is following the recommendations of respected scientists that knows the well-being of the animals. We encourage all of our members to follow those kind of guidelines, and if they do, we believe that their animals will respond kindly to them as well. Mr. Walberg. Thank you. I yield back. Mr. Boswell. Mr. Goodlatte, do you have questions? Or Mr. King has one. I will let you get organized, whichever. Mr. Goodlatte. I just want to set the record straight on something that concerns me greatly because animal welfare obviously is a very important issue but also food safety is a very important issue as well and it was asserted by Mr. Pacelle in his testimony that there was a downer cow with BSE that got into our food supply. That is absolutely false, and one of the reasons why we have the system that we have to protect consumers is to make sure that kind of thing does not happen. In his testimony, he suggested that the BSE-positive cattle had entered the food supply. Due to the large number of overlapping firewalls, no cattle testing positive for BSE have entered the food supply in the United States. I think this small example justifies Mr. Stenholm's testimony regarding the scare tactics used by animal rights activists to invent facts to support their extreme agenda, and we will submit information from the USDA of every cow that has been discovered in the United States with BSE, and there are only a few of them, to show that in each instance, the cow did not enter the food supply. And of course, a further safety measure is that the specified risk material in these animals is removed prior to the processing anyway so that portion that would contain any such ingredient would not get in anyway. But notwithstanding that fact, there is no cow that has entered our food supply, and I just want to make sure that the record reflects that so that the American consumer knows that our beef supply is indeed safe. Mr. Boswell. Mr. Goodlatte, would you yield on that point? Mr. Goodlatte. I would be happy to yield. Mr. Boswell. I appreciate you making those comments. A concern of mine for some time of course has been the same thing that we have shared, you and I have talked about and others on the committee about BSE, et cetera, and all animals aren't the same, and concern has risen caused by some that the same thing applies to pork. That is just not so. Even efforts have been made to inject in tests, I am told, with BSE and it didn't take. And I want to ask for you to yield to make this comment. As a young person, I used to feed and haul a lot of hogs to market and I had somebody ask me one time well, what goes on when a pig or a hog just lays down, and some would call that a downed animal, and I said well, first off, you understand it has been proven they are very smart animals. They have an intellect that is unusual when it comes to animals. And to get my point across, I finally said I will tell you what, as a person that dealt with that, they protest, they lay down. And the person said, well, what do you do then, and I said well, we are trying to load them to go to market, I said, we put a person on each ear and the tail and give them encouragement and maybe they just stand up and go. Now, a little on the light side of it, I get down to the Kansas City market, I was just a young fellow at those times, didn't have anybody to help me but sometimes they decided to protest versus get off the top deck getting off the truck, and guess who had to go back up in there and get them out after healing them for 2 or 3 hours? I had a lot of involvement in that, but it is true, the hog, the swine, there has never, ever been a case of anything that would be remotely connected to BSE according to the many scientists and people that I have talked to and the people in the business. They are smart animals and they will do things like that to make you think they might be sick and they are not sick at all, and there is no evidence of it, and I may be overstretching the comment by saying they protest but that is exactly the way I see it to understand what they will do, having dealt with them over the times of my life. So thank you for yielding. I yield back. Mr. Goodlatte. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have got to leave and I just want to point out, Mr. Pacelle and I disagree on the whole downed animal issue and I understand his position. I think it is incorrect because I think you correctly note that there are a multitude of reasons why an animal might be downed, and there are provisions in the law to assure that an animal that is downed and may be diseased does not get into the food supply. An animal that might have a broken leg or something like that under the old provisions would still be suitable for slaughter. The disagreement we had was over whether it should be all-encompassing like that and that an animal that had those kind of problems would still get into the food supply and an animal that is diseased shouldn't get into the food supply under any circumstances whether it is downed or not. But the important thing here is to make very clear that in no instance of the very small number, I am not sure of the exact number, the 3, 4, 5 cows with BSE that have been found in the United States, none have entered the human food supply, and I just think it is important to set the record straight on that issue so that any coverage of this hearing makes it clear that the food supply, that the confidence of the American consumer in the safety of their beef is not any way impaired by that. I thank you very much for allowing me to make that one point. Mr. Boswell. Well, thank you, and I would say this in credit to Mr. Pacelle or anybody else in the room: If you have a concern about BSE or downed animals, we all do. Nobody objects to that. We all do, and I think that is across the country, so I think that is something we absolutely agree on but we just have to use the science and be factual about it. This pretty much wraps up this panel. Is there anybody that wants to have the last--Mr. King? Mr. King. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I think it is important that we end this panel and this important section of this hearing on the right tone. So sometimes I listen to testimony, a question will pop up in my mind, and I think I have to have an answer to that. The question that popped up in my mind was, can a vegan or a vegetarian, can they eat a carnivore, and as I rolled that question around in my mind, the very agile staff that we have comes up with an answer for me that I would like to share with this committee, and the answer to that is yes, that there are five plants, at least that we know of, that are carnivores themselves and we are all familiar with the Venus Flytrap but if you go across the range from the consumption of a small insect whereas the largest one is a Raja pitcher plant, they can actually digest mice. So I would think there would be a way to get some retribution by making a salad out of these five carnivorous plants. But I also wanted to make a confession just to end up my time here and that is that I am also a vegetarian, that I eat recycled, concentrated, enhanced vegetables in the form of meat. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back. Mr. Boswell. I would like to close this panel at this time and thank every one of you for your patience and your contribution and the manner in which you presented things you feel strongly about. Thank you very much. We would excuse you at this time and ask the third and final panel to join us at the table. As you are getting situated, let me say to the third panel, thank you for your tolerance and your patience. You have waited a long time, and we don't want you to think you are any less important for being here because sometimes they even say the best is last. I don't know if that would be applicable here but nevertheless, we are pleased to have you here. By introduction, I would introduce Mr. Gene Baur, President of Farm Sanctuary, Watkins Glen, New York; Mr. Paxton Ramsey, Member, National Cattlemen's Beef Association, Devers, Texas; Ms. Barbara Determan, National Pork Producers Counsel, Early, Iowa, I know where that is; Ms. Leslie Vagneur Lange, National Director, American Quarter Horse Association from Greeley, Colorado; and Ms. Karen Jordan, DVM, Owner of Large Animal Veterinary Services on behalf of the National Milk Producers Federation, Siler City, North Carolina. Welcome to the panel. Mr. Baur, would you please share with us. STATEMENT OF GENE BAUR, PRESIDENT, FARM SANCTUARY, WATKINS GLEN, NEW YORK Mr. Baur. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, thank you very much for holding this hearing to address farm animal welfare. It is an area of growing concern across our country and that is why we are seeing companies like Whole Foods develop more humane standards and where companies like Smithfield are starting to move away from certain practices that have been common. My name is Gene Baur. I am the Oresident and Cofounder of Farm Sanctuary. We operate two sanctuaries for farm animals, one in New York, one in California. I also have a master's degree on agricultural economics from Cornell University. So I have spent a fair bit of time taking care of animals. I have firsthand experience taking care of animals. Our shelters actually began when we would find living animals literally thrown in trashcans or living animals left on piles of dead animals behind stockyards. What has happened as we have pushed to produce more food more cheaply is that animals have become increasingly commodified. Animals are not being seen as living, feeling creatures and they are seen more as production units, and I am glad to hear that this assumption that if animals are productive, their welfare is good, is now being questioned. In fact, as Dr. Golab pointed out, there are competing interests on the farm. In some instances, animal welfare is actually in conflict with animal production. To produce egg-laying breeds of hens, hatcheries discard millions of unwanted male chicks every year. I have photos of baby chicks in dumpsters. I was at a hatchery once and watched living chicks put on an auger, sent into a manure spreader to be spread on the field as manure. As Dr. Temple Grandin has said, and she is one of the Nation's and in fact the world's leading livestock handling experts, bad has become normal oftentimes what happens on farms. I also want to just say that I don't believe that farmers are bad people. I don't believe that people who are throwing living animals in trashcans or confining them in these devices which I believe are inhumane, I don't believe that those individuals are cruel or intentionally causing harm to animals but I believe people have become jaded, and the industry has looked to maximize production and it has come at the expensive of animal welfare. Science has shown us what we can do but it has not asked the question, what we should do. Ethics is the issue we are dealing with here and that is why these issues are so emotional. Animal advocates are very upset about what they see happening to animals and I also understand that animal producers sometimes feel threatened and feel that they are being called cruel. That is not an easy thing to hear. But I would like to point out again that these are not people intentionally causing harm or wishing to cause harm. Nobody wants to cause harm. We all like to see ourselves as humane citizens. But what is happening on farms is, in the view of myself and Farm Sanctuary's members and most U.S. citizens, what is happening on farms is unacceptable. Most people do not feel that it is right to keep breeding pigs in 2-foot-wide crates for years. They feel that it is wrong to just throw living animals in trashcans or leave them on piles of dead animals. When we address how animals are raised, we need to look at the ethical issues. Science is important, that needs to be brought into the equation but ethics is also important, and that is one of the things that we haven't really heard very much about here. What is humane? What is appropriate? What do we stand for as a people and as a society? Do we think it is okay for living chicks to be thrown on an auger and dumped into a manure spreader to be spread on the field as manure? Do we think that is appropriate? And I would also just say from the legal standpoint, farm animals are excluded from the Federal Animal Welfare Act and they are also excluded from many state anticruelty laws. So this idea of throwing these live animals away could in some cases be considered legal, and in fact, we had a court case in New Jersey where there were a couple of live hens that were thrown into a trashcan as manure. The egg industry's lawyer actually argued in court that legally the birds could be treated like manure. The judge said isn't there a difference between live birds and manure? And the attorney said no, Your Honor. So it has gotten to such a point that cruelty is defended and I think this hearing will hopefully shed some light on some of the real conditions and I really appreciate the opportunity to be here. Thank you. [The prepared statement of Mr. Baur appears at the conclusion of the hearing:] Mr. Boswell. Thank you. We would now recognize Mr. Ramsey. STATEMENT OF PAXTON RAMSEY, MEMBER, NATIONAL CATTLEMEN'S BEEF ASSOCIATION, DEVERS, TEXAS Mr. Ramsey. Thank you. Good morning, Mr. Chairman and members of the committee. My name is Paxton Ramsey and I am the 4th of 5 generations on my family's ranch in south Texas where we raise cattle and horses, and I am honored to be here this morning on behalf of the American rancher to confirm the importance of animal welfare in our industry. Each morning on ranches across the country, over a cup of coffee in the barn, cowboys are feeding, grooming, shoeing horses, putting orphaned calves on a nurse cow as they meet and prioritize their duties of the day. A plan is devised and each man departs for the day in a dirty pickup with a pair of fencing pliers, a sandwich, medicine and a fresh horse in his trailer. Our goal is to as thorough and efficient as we can in checking and handling our portion of the livestock with animal welfare and profitability in mind. This includes providing adequate water, minerals and vitamins based on age, condition, sex and time of year. A man once told me that ranching is an art and should be handled in a business-like way. Poorly tended animals will cause a ranch to go under, the same ranch the world is counting on for food. The longstanding commitment to the health and welfare of our animals is probably not something we talk about enough in public because it is not something that we have to make a conscious decision to pursue. Good care of our animals is second nature to us and it is not something we do because it is popular or newsworthy. We do it because these animals depend on us and we cannot fail them. If I may, allow me to take you a few miles off the highway where a young man has been working since before we all ate breakfast to locate a sick calf. He and his horse have just exhibited a harmony beyond words in roping this calf and giving the appropriate shots needed to prevent the signs of pneumonia from spreading. Picture the heat, the thorns, the dust, the potholes and many more pitfalls that this team has endured to get through rough country just to doctor one little old calf that neither you nor I will ever know about if he dies. Is it really worth all the work, risk and danger? What if the market value of that calf is at an all-time low? It is worth doing when no one will ever know if he turns his back and rides away? Yes, sir, it is. Do you know why? Because that young man promised his forefathers and his children that he would. Being a good steward is the job that he asked for and his integrity and the welfare of his animals are not to be compromised. Stewardship requires work. The cattle and horses of our family ranch count on us to adequately care for them as much or more than we count on them to take care of us. It is not only our moral obligation, it has also proven to be a more profitable way of business. We have learned through years of experience that if you take care of your pennies, your dollars will take care of themselves. A stressed animal that goes to market produces a substandard product. An animal that was raised without proper management practices will not produce high-quality meat. As a member of the National Cattlemen's Beef Association and the Texas and Southwestern Cattle Raisers Association, I rely on them to help ensure that animal welfare is taken seriously throughout our industry. NCBA has worked with USDA, land grant universities, county agents, vets, animal scientists and cowboys to determine the effects of handling and care on livestock. That knowledge has helped the industry to develop new processes, procedures and equipment that improve animal welfare. For example, NCBA has long taken these principles and practices from the grass roots level and added the expertise of many associated entities to develop producer-led initiatives such as the Beef Quality Assurance Program and the cattle industry's guidelines for the care and handling of cattle. Created in 1987, BQA provides guidelines for livestock care and handling and nutrition and veterinary treatment. Emphasis on education helps producers identify the day-to-day ranch management practices that influence the production of safe, wholesome beef. BQA incorporates current FDA, EPA and USDA regulations as well as HACCP principles. Today BQA influences more than 90 percent of U.S. cattle. The BQA producer code of cattle care gives the following guidelines for cattle producers: provide adequate food, water and care to protect cattle health and well-being; provide disease prevention practices to protect the health of the herd including access to veterinary care; provide facilities that allow safe, humane and effective movement and/or restraint of livestock; use humane methods to euthanize sick or injured livestock and dispose of them properly; provide personnel with training to properly handle and care for cattle; make timely observations of livestock to ensure basic needs are being met; provide transportation that avoids undue stress caused by overcrowding, excess time in transit or improper handling during loading and unloading; keep updated on advancements and changes in the industry to make decisions based on sound production practices and consideration to animal well-being;, and finally, not to tolerate people or practices which willfully mistreat animals. In addition, the cattle industry's guidelines for care and handling cattle, which were developed in 2003, are a comprehensive set of the best practices for every aspect of the cattle production. Some of the best practices include: low- stress cattle handling; effective shelter and housing; careful loading and transporting; and tips on reducing heat stress. As you can see, ladies and gentlemen, animal welfare is given great consideration every day in my business. Not only is proper care and handling something we practice, it is also regulated by state and federal law. As such, we look forward to working with Congress to ensure that state and federal agencies such as APHIS have all the resources they need for the inspection of regulated facilities that handle livestock. In addition, we hope to work with you to continue efforts that ensure we have plenty of enthusiastic and talented vets entering large-animal practices. In closing, years of practical experience have shaped the practices we as cattlemen use to care for our livestock. It is not just something we talk about, it is something we do every day. I assure you, no one looks out for the welfare of our animals more than we do because it is an integral part of ensuring the industry remains as healthy and as vibrant as our cattle. On behalf of NCBA and the American rancher, I appreciate your time here today. [The prepared statement of Mr. Ramsey appears at the conclusion of the hearing:] Mr. Boswell. Thank you, Mr. Ramsey. The chair recognizes Ms. Determan. STATEMENT OF BARBARA DETERMAN, NATIONAL PORK PRODUCERS COUNCIL, EARLY, IOWA Ms. Determan. Good morning, Chairman Boswell and Ranking Member Hayes and other members of the subcommittee. I am Barb Determan. I am a 4th-generation pork producer from Early, Iowa, and I am a Past President of the National Pork Producers Council. First, I want to make a very clear, definitive statement to this committee and to Congress. American's pork producers recognize our moral obligation to provide for the well-being of our animals and we raise our pigs in a humane, compassionate and socially responsible manner. Any production practice that falls short of this high performance standard is totally unacceptable and will not be tolerated by our industry. In addition to our moral obligation, pork producers' livelihoods depend on the well-being and performance of their pigs. Through my own farm experiences and the countless number of people that I have met through my work and travels as an NPPC officer, I have learned that one thing is very constant among pork producers. We are in this business because we love working with pigs. None of us would do anything that would be knowingly harmful to the pigs' well-being but remember, these are food animals, not household pets. Today I will tell you how American's pork producers are addressing the well-being of our pigs through compassionate swine care, humane sow housing, responsible use of antibiotics and safe transportation. In 1989, pork producers established the Pork Quality Assurance, PQA, food safety program. Major meatpackers require our producers to have PQA certification. While producers have long used humane well-being practices, the industry further developed animal care guidelines in the early 1990s and we made them into standards as new knowledge about animal care became available. More recently, the industry developed and implemented the Trucker Quality Assurance Program for those who handle and transport market hogs. The majority of packing plants also require truckers to be TQA certified. All three of these efforts were among the first of their kind in the livestock industry and were developed in cooperation with animal well-being experts from land grant universities, practicing veterinarians and other scientists. In 2002, producers endorsed an updated U.S. producer code of practice that calls for us to: provide facilities to protect and shelter our pigs; provide personnel with training for proper care of our pigs with zero tolerance for mistreatment of our pigs in their care; provide access to good quality water, nutritionally balanced diets; provide prompt veterinary medical care when required; and maintain adequate biosecurity to protect the health of our herd. In 2003, the industry updated its Swine Care Handbook which is the foundation for the Swine Welfare Assurance Program, called SWAP. It is an educational and assessment program that looks at 10 specific areas of animal care. Now the principles of SWAP are in the industry's ongoing and groundbreaking Pork Quality Assurance Plus Program which does include certification, on-farm assessments and third-party audits. There was no pressure to implement these programs other than our belief to do the right thing. All our animals, even those raised for food, deserve to be provided with care and decency, and we do that 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year. With regard to sow housing, the pork industry agrees with the position of the American Veterinary Medical Association, the American Association of Swine Veterinarians and other organizations, which recognize gestation stalls and group housing systems as appropriate for providing for the well-being of sows during pregnancy. Science and practice suggest that both individual and group housing have advantages and disadvantages. That is why we strongly believe the skill of the individual taking care of the pigs is the ultimate determining fact in the well-being of sows and market pigs. Healthy, well- cared-for animals are raised in almost any system as long as the care of the animal is the top priority. Science and farmer experience also tell us that mandating any one type of sow housing or simply changing for the sake of change is not necessarily in the best interest of the pig. We do not believe Congress has the understanding or the expertise to decide on farm practices for our production. We also believe that includes the use of antibiotics to treat injured or sick pigs and that prevent wound infections, pain and suffering. Pork producers use antibiotics in consultation with their veterinarian in a responsible manner. In fact, the industry created the Take Care, Use Antibiotics Responsibly program to enhance producers' awareness of antibiotic use. Banning antibiotics because of some misconception or outdated information related to the antibiotic resistance in humans will only jeopardize the well-being of our animals. It is clear that antibiotic resistance in humans would not end if antibiotic use on farms were eliminated. One peer-reviewed study estimates that 96 percent of antibiotic resistance in humans is due to the human use of antibiotic and not from the consumption of meet products. In addition, the FDA has a rigorous science- based approval process for animal antibiotics that addresses human health concerns and sets withdrawal times for each antibiotic use. I am proud to be part of an industry that on our own has developed and implemented world-class programs that help pork producers raise and care for their animals in a humane, compassionate and socially responsible manner. We oppose legislation that dictates our production practices or that bans products and practices that help us care for our pigs and we oppose including an animal welfare title in the farm bill. Again, thank you for letting me testify on behalf of the Nation's pork producers and I will be happy to answer any questions at the appropriate time. [The prepared statement of Ms. Determan appears at the conclusion of the hearing:] Mr. Boswell. Thank you very much. Ms. Lange. STATEMENT OF LESLIE VAGNEUR LANGE, NATIONAL DIRECTOR, AMERICAN QUARTER HORSE ASSOCIATION Ms. Lange. Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and members of the subcommittee. My name is Leslie Lange. I am the National Director for the American Quarter Horse Association from my home State of Colorado. It is AQHA's hope that by providing this testimony, commonsense legislation can be addressed that will not adversely affect horse owners, horses or the industry at large. There are many examples of people who believe they are working for positive changes yet they are in fact irreparably damaging the agricultural industry. Threats received by Colorado's own beloved, century-old National Western Stock Show and Rodeo and protests at rodeos across the country by militant animal rights groups are just a few examples. Today I want to focus on what has occurred recently as a result of the closure of some horse processing facilities in the United States. The American Quarter Horse Association represents a broad base of members who are involved in many different areas of the industry. The primary concern of these members, my fellow directors and staff is ensuring that the welfare of the horse is paramount to all other considerations. I would like to have added to the record a copy of AQHA's rulebook that addresses humane treatment. I want the record to reflect that AQHA does not favor slaughter as a way of dealing with America's unwanted horses. However, the association's board does recognize that the processing of unwanted horses is currently a necessary aspect of the equine industry. Some have publicly mischaracterized AQHA as not being for the horse and that could not be further from the truth. If it weren't for the horse, AQHA would not exist. Additionally, it has been improperly stated that the majority of horses that go to slaughter are American Quarter Horses. To be accurate, the processing facilities do not know the breeds of these horses. As a breed registry, the association's primary role is to record the pedigrees of American quarter horses. It is not AQHA's role to restrict a breeder's right to breed their horses. In fact, courts have ruled that in certain cases, it is a restraint of trade for the association to do so. The three areas I would like to comment on are long-term care for horses, funding for enforcement and an equine welfare system and how the industry is handling the unwanted-horse issue without the government reacting to animal rights activists or celebrities who are out of touch. Earlier this year when the horse processing facilities were closed, AQHA warned that if this were to occur without addressing long-term-care solutions, some horses would needlessly suffer. Their owners would not have a way to sell a horse they no longer wanted nor could afford to keep. An unwanted horse is one that has become a burden rather than a joy to its owner. Examples of these problems, AQHA took a call from an irate salebarn owner who found himself in possession of a handful of horses that the owner had simply abandoned because he couldn't even get the consignment fee for them in the auction. The association received a call from a feed store in Mississippi that was approached to help feed 70 horses that had been abandoned. An AQHA member from Montana mailed pictures of a 3-year-old gelding that died of starvation because its owner simply walked away. And in my home State of Colorado, 23 horses were locked in a barn and abandoned. The owner told authorities he could no longer afford to take care of these horses because of rising prices and plummeting value. Certainly, all owners should care for their animals properly. Unfortunately, not all do because they can no longer afford to. While many business owners and animal lovers have a soft spot for these abandoned horses now, at some point the gravy train is going to run dry and horses are already becoming victims. Activists and misguided legislation circulating around Washington relating to horse slaughter are having a powerful impact on the very animal meant to be protected. Whether or not we want to admit it, economics comes into play. The slaughter market determines the base or floor price for horses. When that bottom falls out or is removed, as it has been, it simply stands to reason that it will adversely affect the horse industry and the horses themselves. I make my living off the horse industry, and even at the upper end where I train and compete, owners are beginning to feel the effects of the bottoming of the horse industry. When the floor is removed, the entire industry begins to fall, and as we are seeing, values are beginning to decline. I would like to add to the record the American Horse Council's Economic Impact of the Horse Industry. The other economic issue deals with how are we going to care for 90,000 horses each year entering the equine welfare system. By most assessments, it would take an additional 2,700 bona fide rescue facilities. By providing only the most basic care of hay and water, it will cost $171 million to care for 90,000 unwanted horses displaced as a result of banning horse slaughter in the United States. Staff at AQHA called the hometowns of each of the members of this subcommittee. Of the 18 municipalities contacted, only one had the facilities to take in displaced horses. We have a long way to go. As a result of the closing of the Nation's processing facilities, today there are more horses on the market causing the value to plunge. Low prices have consequences, and while slaughter is not pretty, it does provide a humane, economical way for an owner to relinquish an unwanted horse. The option of sending a horse for processing must remain available to those who need it so long as measures ensuring humane transportation and treatment of horses are in place. Today those rules exist, and in the United States we protect the dignity of even the most unwanted or unusable horse. Once an animal is taken outside the borders, we lose those standards of care. The good news is, the horse industry is addressing the issue without government intervention through the Unwanted Horse Coalition. The Unwanted Horse Coalition, which was established in 2005, is working to eliminate America's unwanted horses. Their goal is not to pay for the care of unwanted horses but to reduce their number and improve their welfare. Through education and hard work, we are addressing this problem without creating inadvertent problems like this ban has. Ladies and gentlemen of this subcommittee, I love horses and I love how good the agriculture industry has been to me. If you are serious about helping horses and the good people who make their livelihood off the livestock industry, I hope you will do what is right to end this problem. It is not about passing laws that have unintended consequences; it is about being realistic, doing what is right for horses and feasible for taxpayers. Thank you for your time today. [The prepared statement of Ms. Lange appears at the conclusion of the hearing:] Mr. Boswell. Thank you for your testimony. Ms. Jordan. STATEMENT OF KAREN JORDAN, DVM, OWNER, LARGE ANIMAL VETERINARY SERVICES, ON BEHALF OF NATIONAL MILK PRODUCERS FEDERATION, SILER CITY, NORTH CAROLINA Ms. Jordan. Thank you for inviting the National Milk Producers Federation to testify before you today. My name is Karen Jordan and I am a practicing large-animal veterinarian from Siler City, North Carolina. My husband and I also own Brush Creek Swiss Farms, where we milk 75 registered Brown Swiss and raise about 70 replacement heifers. Currently I serve as Vice-Chair of the Animal Health Committee of National Milk and Chair of the Cattle Health Committee of the National Institution for Animal Agriculture. My testimony today focuses on the animal care that our U.S. dairy farmers provide every day for their animals and the incorporation of new technology as it becomes available to improve the welfare of our animals. Dairy farmers know that improving animal welfare pays back on a daily basis. Every day, regardless of the size of the operation, dairy farmers invest time and money in providing the best health care, housing and nutrition that is available. While specific animal care practices vary depending on the geographic region and climate, proper animal care is practiced throughout the industry. Simply put, what is good for our cows is good for our businesses. In 2002, National Milk Producers and the Milk and Dairy Beef Quality Assurance Center came together to develop the Caring for Dairy Animals Technical Reference Guide. This is a comprehensive set of dairy animal well-being guidelines that covers all aspects of dairy animal care. The Milk and Dairy Beef Quality Assurance Center also offers a third-party auditing component of the program and many dairy farmers choose to go through own farm audit to verify their best management practices. These guidelines have been recognized by the Food Marketing Institute and the National Council of Chain Restaurants. The guidelines were developed using the most current animal well- being research and these guidelines have been extensively reviewed by dairy animal welfare experts and are endorsed by the American Association of Bovine Practitioners. At the inception of the guidelines, a strong promotional effort led by National Milk was initiated and these guidelines were widely distributed to dairy farmers, veterinarians, dairy nutritionists, milk cooperative field staff and others who interact with dairy farmers on a daily basis. The dairy industry has not only addressed animal care standards for the milking cow but also for dairy calves, replacement heifers and for veal calves. Farmers that raise replacement heifers utilize the Raising Quality Replacement Heifers guidelines. The American Veal Association has developed the Veal Quality Assurance Program, which provides stringent guidelines for animal well-being and care and requires multiple yearly onsite visits from an accredited and licensed veterinarian to document compliance. Several years ago, the New Jersey Department of Agriculture was mandated to develop and adopt regulations governing the minimum standards for the humane treatment of domestic livestock. The same Caring for Dairy Animals Technical Reference Guide was a set of dairy animal welfare guidelines that the State of New Jersey used to develop the dairy component of their standards. There are also other dairy animal welfare verification programs that states or dairy organizations have developed. For example, the States of California and New York have quality assurance programs that have a dairy animal welfare component to them. In addition to animal care guidelines, the dairy industry also supports new research in the animal well-being area. As new appropriate technologies and/or animal care practices arise, they are recommended to producers, and in the past decade animal welfare research has lead to many improvements in cow comfort. Because of this research, farmers have applied the improvements gained from the research into their management practices. Today many farmers provide their cows with fans and sprinkler systems to keep them cool and comfortable. Farmers also install rubber mats for their cows to stand on as well as clean, comfortable bedding such as sand and rubber-filled mattresses for their cows to lie on. Routine herd health programs are also a part of all dairy farmers' daily management. Through a combination of modern production technologies and experienced gained across generations of dairying, today's milk producers know how to maximize cow comfort and well-being in order to achieve the record levels of milk production that you are seeing today. National Milk Producers continues to work with other dairy organizations to promote the animal care guidelines to our dairy producers. As you can see, U.S. dairy farmers have been very involved in the welfare of their animals and dairy farmers want to provide the utmost care for their animals. Because of all the industry efforts, we respectfully request that you oppose any proposed farm animal welfare legislation as part of the 2007 Farm Bill. Dairy farmers' livelihood is already based on well- cared-for and healthy animals to produce wholesome, nutritious dairy products. Thank you for providing me with the opportunity to testify on behalf of the National Milk Producers Federation, and I have a copy of the guidelines that I have referred to during this testimony that I would like for this to be made part of the record. [The prepared statement of Ms. Jordan appears at the conclusion of the hearing:] Mr. Boswell. Well, thank you, Ms. Jordan, for an excellent testimony. We will move to our questions now. I guess it is a learning process for me, but Mr. Baur, if I could start off with, is Farm Sanctuary an animal welfare or animal rights organization? Mr. Baur. We are both. We encourage people to consider eating in a compassionate way, which would include a vegan lifestyle, but we also work to stop cruelty so we recognize that each person has to make their own food choices though. Mr. Boswell. Okay. I am trying to understand your goals. Is it to end animal agriculture? Mr. Baur. No, our goals are to prevent suffering, to prevent cruelty. We are not anti-farmer; we are anti-cruelty. Mr. Boswell. So you just said you are a vegetarian or a---- Mr. Baur. I am a vegan, yes, but we recognize that each person has to make their own choice in terms of what they eat. Mr. Boswell. Out of curiosity, and I am not picking on you, but would you like to see an end to raising and the slaughter of animals for food? Mr. Baur. Personally, I think it is a violent--killing animals is a bloody, violent thing and I frankly feel kind of bad for those who have to do it, so in my ideal world and what I dream about, yes, that is what I would like to see. I also recognize that I am individual with my own dreams and each of us have our own dreams but we as a society need to decide what is appropriate, and I think that is where we are currently not acting appropriately. We are doing some very bad things to animals. Mr. Boswell. I am curious about, if I could, where does Farm Sanctuary gets its funding. Do you get it from HSUS? Do you receive funding from them? Mr. Baur. No, the vast majority of our support comes from our members. We have 150,000 supporters across the U.S. Mr. Boswell. But back to my question, do you get any funding from HSUS? Mr. Baur. We were involved with a rescue of chickens from Katrina and we did get a donation from HSUS for that particular rescue but that was a one-time thing and---- Mr. Boswell. But how about other help? For example, PETA, do you get any---- Mr. Baur. No, we have never gotten any funding from PETA. Mr. Boswell. Well, thank you very much. I would like to address this question to some of the others. I am aware that a lot of quality assurance activity goes on within your industries, beef, pork, dairy, I think it does with horses as well so would you just, to enlighten us a little bit, give me just a little bit of what you are doing to try to put this forward. Mr. Ramsey. If I may, Mr. Chairman, I think it varies from region to region as each ranch requires certain activity to ensure welfare of animals. I know that NCBA has worked hard to establish its Beef Quality Assurance Program and it is a recommended procedure to all of their members. However, our ranch personally, for example, we actually have to go above and beyond that to some degree. Mr. Boswell. But you have an education program, if I remember. Mr. Ramsey. Yes, sir. Mr. Boswell. I think it is very good. I am going to give you a chance to tell the folks about that. Mr. Ramsey. Yes, sir. I think it promotes an activity among all ranches to be in touch with their veterinarians, to be in touch with what is a good vaccine program to prevent any unnecessary sickness or death. But it is very---- Mr. Boswell. Barbara? Ms. Determan. The Pork Quality Assurance Program, like we said, has been around since 1989 and anybody who handles hogs, and especially on our farm, goes through PQA training, even down to my teenage daughter has gone through Pork Quality Assurance training. And what that is, is an education process with a certified veterinarian who walks us through the education process of how to handle the pigs. The PQA Plus Program that is going to be introduced this year to producers now includes the animal welfare component to it too which will have an assessment as well as third-party audit within that. Most of the major packers in the pork industry require producers to be PQA certified. Mr. Boswell. Ms. Jordan or Ms. Lange, either one, your quality programs? Ms. Jordan. For the dairy industry, our Caring for Dairy Animals Technical Reference Guide has been well circulated through our different dairy magazines. It has been made available to the field staff for different member cooperatives for distribution to our dairy farmers. Mr. Boswell. Thank you. Ms. Lange. In the equine industry, it is obvious that we don't consume a large amount of horsemeat in the United States but the American Quarter Horse Association does have over $6 million in contributions in equine research for the health and well-being of the equine animal, and as I spoke in my testimony, the Unwanted Horse Coalition is working to provide a place other than slaughter for horses that are unwanted or unusable. We have brochures that we have put out addressing those unwanted-horse issues and what the options are besides slaughter to try to address the unwanted-horse issue. Mr. Boswell. Thank you very well. Mr. Hayes. Mr. Hayes. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Ms. Jordan, would you outline briefly the guidelines employed by veal raisers to improve and to ensure animal care? Ms. Jordan. I am sorry. I would have to get back to you on that. I don't have access to that document. Mr. Hayes. How about your personal experience? That is all I am asking about. Ms. Jordan. Well, personal experience, our book has--we usually keep them on the farm for 7 to 10 days and then they are usually sold locally and they are handled just like as if they were a heifer calf, and we are trying to get them started out just as well as any of our heifer calves are started out. Mr. Hayes. Is Johnson's still in Siler City? Mr. Jordan. Johnson's Restaurant? Mr. Hayes. Yes. Ms. Jordan. Yes, sir, best hamburgers. Mr. Hayes. We could convert some vegans there, I believe. Ms. Determan, thank you for coming by yesterday. Talk briefly about the downers and the ban that is proposed under H.R. 661. What impact would that have and is that practical and realistic? Ms. Determan. Well, as Chairman Boswell explained, pigs sometimes just protest, and so the pigs when we are unloading them at the slaughter plant, sometimes we have--they just get stubborn and especially if it is warm, they will just lay down, and that could possibly eliminate a lot of pigs from our supply because this is just a trait of theirs. By eliminating pigs who are perfectly healthy and pose no threat to the food supply would be a huge impact on our industry. But more importantly, they are safe and they are good, quality product to go to consumers who need to feed their families. Mr. Hayes. Mr. Baur, do you think Roe v. Wade should be overturned? Mr. Baur. I haven't honestly given it a lot of thought. I mean, we are here to talk about farm animals. Well, Roe v. Wade, I mean, that is--I honestly don't have a position on it. Mr. Hayes. Okay. Mr. Chairman, thank you. A couple things. I would ask unanimous consent that Mr. Stenholm's May 23 letter to Mr. Pacelle be entered into the record today, and I would also from personal experience like to add to the testimony that as a great fan, my wife and I of PBR, the bulls are treated much better than the cowboys, exemplary across the board. Also, the circus, as a grandfather, I have never seen better care for animals and in the quarter horse industry, the dairy farmers, poultry--Mama, don't let your baby grow up to be a cowboy. You did a great job, Mr. Ramsey. They are doing a good job. So thank you for the hearing, and I will yield my time in case some other questions need to be asked. You need to think about that Roe v. Wade, Mr. Baur. It is interesting, given your position. Mr. Boswell. Well, thank you, Mr. Hayes. Mr. King. Mr. King. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I will move quickly. Ms. Determan, when I was a young boy, we farrowed pigs with wooden panels in the barn, pitched straw over them and bedded the sows in that. They had the pigs, got up, laid back down, laid on them, sometimes they ate them. How many pigs did we wean per litter then and compared to 20 years ago when we came with farrowing crates compared to today with gestation crates? What has happened to the survivability of those pigs? Ms. Determan. Survivability of the pigs has greatly increased, first of all. Second of all, I had the same experience. I grew up on a pig farm too so I had the same experience of having those pigs get laid on and other things happened. But mainly the survivability has increased from anywhere from 2 to 3 pigs per litter, and that is per litter, not yearlong but per litter. So it has been a very-- I have had experience both ways and I will tell you that the individual care that I can give to each animal in a stall is extremely important for me as a producer to be able to take care of each animal individually, not only care-wise but also make sure they get the right feed and the whole works. Mr. King. But today you see a wean average approaching 10 pigs per litter? Ms. Determan. Yes. Mr. King. And when I was a little boy, what was that number, what would you--just a guess. Ms. Determan. Less than seven. Now is 10. Mr. King. That is about how many pigs' lives one would sacrifice if they went back to a more natural way of doing this. I yield back the balance of my time. I thank the chairman and thank the witnesses. Mr. Boswell. I understand Mr. Walberg has no questions. Mr. Hayes, we are going to ask you if you have any closing remarks before we wrap up here. Seeing none at this moment, I would like to say this for my part: excellent panel. Thank you very much, Mr. Baur, Mr. Ramsey, Ms. Determan, Ms. Lange, Ms. Jordan, I appreciate you taking the time and coming and sharing with us and helping us discuss this issue of animal welfare. I think overall as we think of what has happened here these last 3 hours or so, that it has been an open opportunity to put things under glass, if you will, out in daylight and talk about it. One thing I have learned and appreciate very much is that folks are concerned about animal welfare, they are serious about it, but I also learned very much that a lot is being done in the industry to address this, and I want you to know that we appreciate that. As a participant myself, I have grown up trying to do that so I think that you are doing the right thing and we want you to know we appreciate it. I am concerned particularly about the downed animal situation that some misinformation is out there and we have to make sure that is corrected. I rely on a lot of you in the industry and those who practice medicine in the industry to help us out on that because I think it would be devastating to the pork industry, for example, if they would be falsely accused of sick animals when they are not sick animals. I have got too much grease on me from the past. I know better. So I would trust that we would work together on that particular point because it seems to keep coming back from time to time and I think it is an education process, so I would hope that today has facilitated that. That is what we have tried to do. I am going to bring this to a close and say this for the record. Under the rules of the committee, the record for today's hearing will remain open for 10 days to receive additional material and supplemental responses from witnesses to any question posed by a member of the panel. This hearing of the Subcommittee of Livestock, Dairy and Poultry Subcommittee is now adjourned. Thank you very much. [Whereupon, at 1:25 p.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.] [GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]