[House Hearing, 110 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
AFFORDABLE HOUSING NEEDS OF
AMERICA'S LOW-INCOME VETERANS
=======================================================================
HEARING
BEFORE THE
SUBCOMMITTEE ON
HOUSING AND COMMUNITY OPPORTUNITY
OF THE
COMMITTEE ON FINANCIAL SERVICES
U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED TENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
__________
DECEMBER 5, 2007
__________
Printed for the use of the Committee on Financial Services
Serial No. 110-82
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HOUSE COMMITTEE ON FINANCIAL SERVICES
BARNEY FRANK, Massachusetts, Chairman
PAUL E. KANJORSKI, Pennsylvania SPENCER BACHUS, Alabama
MAXINE WATERS, California RICHARD H. BAKER, Louisiana
CAROLYN B. MALONEY, New York DEBORAH PRYCE, Ohio
LUIS V. GUTIERREZ, Illinois MICHAEL N. CASTLE, Delaware
NYDIA M. VELAZQUEZ, New York PETER T. KING, New York
MELVIN L. WATT, North Carolina EDWARD R. ROYCE, California
GARY L. ACKERMAN, New York FRANK D. LUCAS, Oklahoma
JULIA CARSON, Indiana RON PAUL, Texas
BRAD SHERMAN, California STEVEN C. LaTOURETTE, Ohio
GREGORY W. MEEKS, New York DONALD A. MANZULLO, Illinois
DENNIS MOORE, Kansas WALTER B. JONES, Jr., North
MICHAEL E. CAPUANO, Massachusetts Carolina
RUBEN HINOJOSA, Texas JUDY BIGGERT, Illinois
WM. LACY CLAY, Missouri CHRISTOPHER SHAYS, Connecticut
CAROLYN McCARTHY, New York GARY G. MILLER, California
JOE BACA, California SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO, West
STEPHEN F. LYNCH, Massachusetts Virginia
BRAD MILLER, North Carolina TOM FEENEY, Florida
DAVID SCOTT, Georgia JEB HENSARLING, Texas
AL GREEN, Texas SCOTT GARRETT, New Jersey
EMANUEL CLEAVER, Missouri GINNY BROWN-WAITE, Florida
MELISSA L. BEAN, Illinois J. GRESHAM BARRETT, South Carolina
GWEN MOORE, Wisconsin, JIM GERLACH, Pennsylvania
LINCOLN DAVIS, Tennessee STEVAN PEARCE, New Mexico
ALBIO SIRES, New Jersey RANDY NEUGEBAUER, Texas
PAUL W. HODES, New Hampshire TOM PRICE, Georgia
KEITH ELLISON, Minnesota GEOFF DAVIS, Kentucky
RON KLEIN, Florida PATRICK T. McHENRY, North Carolina
TIM MAHONEY, Florida JOHN CAMPBELL, California
CHARLES A. WILSON, Ohio ADAM PUTNAM, Florida
ED PERLMUTTER, Colorado MICHELE BACHMANN, Minnesota
CHRISTOPHER S. MURPHY, Connecticut PETER J. ROSKAM, Illinois
JOE DONNELLY, Indiana THADDEUS G. McCOTTER, Michigan
ROBERT WEXLER, Florida KEVIN McCARTHY, California
JIM MARSHALL, Georgia
DAN BOREN, Oklahoma
Jeanne M. Roslanowick, Staff Director and Chief Counsel
Subcommittee on Housing and Community Opportunity
MAXINE WATERS, California, Chairwoman
NYDIA M. VELAZQUEZ, New York SHELLEY MOORE CAPITO, West
JULIA CARSON, Indiana Virginia
STEPHEN F. LYNCH, Massachusetts STEVAN PEARCE, New Mexico
EMANUEL CLEAVER, Missouri PETER T. KING, New York
AL GREEN, Texas JUDY BIGGERT, Illinois
WM. LACY CLAY, Missouri CHRISTOPHER SHAYS, Connecticut
CAROLYN B. MALONEY, New York GARY G. MILLER, California
GWEN MOORE, Wisconsin, SCOTT GARRETT, New Jersey
ALBIO SIRES, New Jersey RANDY NEUGEBAUER, Texas
KEITH ELLISON, Minnesota GEOFF DAVIS, Kentucky
CHARLES A. WILSON, Ohio JOHN CAMPBELL, California
CHRISTOPHER S. MURPHY, Connecticut THADDEUS G. McCOTTER, Michigan
JOE DONNELLY, Indiana KEVIN McCARTHY, California
BARNEY FRANK, Massachusetts
C O N T E N T S
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Page
Hearing held on:
December 5, 2007............................................. 1
Appendix:
December 5, 2007............................................. 49
WITNESSES
Wednesday, December 5, 2007
Basher, George, Chair, National Coalition for Homeless Veterans.. 29
Chamrin, Ronald F., Assistant Director, National Economic
Commission, The American Legion................................ 39
Dale, Karen M., Executive Vice President, Operations and
Strategic Development, Volunteers of America................... 32
DeSantis, Deborah, President and CEO, Corporation for Supportive
Housing........................................................ 36
Dougherty, Peter H., Director, Homeless Veterans Programs, U.S.
Department of Veterans Affairs................................. 11
Johnston, Mark, Deputy Assistant Secretary for Special Needs,
U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development............... 9
Radcliff, Dwight, Chief Executive Officer, United States Veterans
Initiative..................................................... 34
Roman, Nan, President, National Alliance to End Homelessness..... 31
Weidman, Rick, Director, Government Affairs, Vietnam Veterans of
America........................................................ 37
Wood, David, Director, Financial Markets and Community
Investment, US. Government Accountability Office............... 12
APPENDIX
Prepared statements:
Basher, George............................................... 50
Chamrin, Ronald F............................................ 57
Dale, Karen M................................................ 68
DeSantis, Deborah............................................ 76
Johnston, Mark............................................... 84
Roman, Nan................................................... 88
Wood, David G................................................ 97
AFFORDABLE HOUSING NEEDS OF
AMERICA'S LOW-INCOME VETERANS
----------
Wednesday, December 5, 2007
U.S. House of Representatives,
Subcommittee on Housing and
Community Opportunity,
Committee on Financial Services,
Washington, D.C.
The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:14 a.m., in
room 2128, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Maxine Waters
[chairwoman of the subcommittee] presiding.
Members present: Representatives Waters, Velazquez,
Cleaver, Green, Moore of Wisconsin, Sires, Ellison, Donnelly;
Capito, Biggert, Shays, Garrett, and Neugebauer.
Chairwoman Waters. The Subcommittee on Housing and
Community Opportunity will come to order. We will be joined in
a few minutes by Ms. Capito, and some other members if they can
get away from the Floor and other committees that they're
serving on. Today's hearing is on affordable housing needs of
America's low-income veterans. I think today's hearing will
continue the strong bipartisan work we're doing in this
subcommittee. Indeed, I may briefly turn over the gavel in
order to speak on the House Floor on H.R. 2930, the Section 202
Supportive Housing for the Elderly Act of 2007, a bill on which
we held an informative hearing in early September and
thereafter were able to work out differences in such a way that
the bill has gone on the suspension calendar.
Similarly, I expect that we will have bipartisan agreement
on the basic principle that no man or woman who has served this
country honorably in a time of war or peace should ever have to
live in desperate poverty, or even worse, literally on the
streets of our Nation. I'm looking forward to hearing from
today's witnesses about how we can do better by our poorest
veterans, because the facts today are sobering, even tragic.
It is simply disgraceful that as many as 200,000 veterans
are homeless on any given night in America, meaning that one
out of every four homeless individuals served in the military.
Often I take pride when my home State of California leads the
Nation in something. Not so here, where California has by far
the greatest absolute number of homeless veterans, nearly
50,000 across the State. It also has the second highest rate of
veterans homelessness in the country, with fully 2\1/4\ of
California's veterans experiencing homelessness.
Nearly as troubling is the tremendous number of veterans in
the State who are at risk of homelessness due to excessive
housing cost burdens; 3.4 percent of California's veterans,
over 73,000 individuals, pay more than half of their income in
rent, and that is unsustainable for the long term. In my home
City of Los Angeles, fully two-thirds of low-income veterans
pay more for their housing than HUD deems supportable, ensuring
a steady flow into an already overburdened homeless system.
But I don't want to leave the impression that the news is
all bad. I know that we will hear today about effective HUD and
VA programs to address the needs of homeless and low-income
veterans. In particular, I look forward to hearing from
witnesses about the potential to expand the availability of
permanent supportive housing to complement the important
transitional housing interventions that have characterized the
VA funded response to veterans homelessness to date.
Several of today's witnesses testified before the
subcommittee during our McKinney-Vento reauthorization hearings
and described the effectiveness and cost effectiveness of
permanent supportive housing for the chronic and disabled
homeless. It seems clear to me that we need to target this
intervention to homeless veterans who suffer from mental health
and other disabilities while languishing on the streets or in
shelters, living in their cars, or roughing it in the country's
backwoods.
And we need to take the enterprise to a scale that can meet
the tremendous need. This includes addressing the pent-up
demand for permanent housing solutions among Vietnam-era
veterans whom we must never forget, even as we prepare for what
seems certain to be an overwhelming number of Iraq and
Afghanistan war veterans at risk of homelessness.
Indeed, the first such veterans have already begun to
appear on the streets and in shelters nationwide. And let me
just mention, we cannot leave out the Desert Storm veterans as
we take a look at those who still need much assistance to get
into decent places to live.
Notably, one of the earliest structured supportive housing
initiatives was a joint HUD-VASH program in the early 1990's in
which local PHAs provided Section 8 vouchers and VA medical
centers furnished case management and clinical services to
participating veterans.
Long-term evaluations of the HUD-VASH program have shown
both improved housing and improved substance abuse outcomes
among veterans who received the vouchers over those who did
not. Veterans who received vouchers experienced fewer days of
homelessness and more days housed than veterans who received
intensive care, case management assistance, or standard care
through VA homeless programs alone.
Analysis also found that veterans with HUD-VASH vouchers
had fewer days of alcohol use, fewer days in which they drank
to intoxication, fewer days of drug use, and fewer days in
institutions. Unfortunately, a relatively paltry number of
additional HUD-VASH vouchers have been authorized in recent
years and none appropriated since Fiscal Year 1994. I am
pleased that our friends on the HUD and VA appropriations
committees have chosen to reverse this trend, providing for
7,500 vouchers and associated services funding in Fiscal Year
2008, HUD and VA conference reports, respectively. I look
forward to hearing the witnesses' perspectives on that.
Finally, I conclude by applauding subcommittee member Al
Green for his legislative work in this area. He will now
provide details on his two important bills, H.R. 3329, the
Homes for Heroes Act of 2007, and H.R. 4161, the Veterans
Homelessness Prevention Act of 2007. But suffice it to say that
he has offered two critical starting points for the
subcommittee to consider, not only for expanding the HUD-VASH
program to the appropriate magnitude, but also for getting HUD
into the permanent supportive housing development business
where it needs to be, given tight rental markets in so many
parts of the country where veterans homelessness is widespread.
With that, I will recognize our ranking member,
Congresswoman Capito, for her opening statement.
Ms. Capito. Thank you, Chairwoman Waters, and I apologize
for being a little tardy to the hearing. I look forward to this
hearing, and I thank you for convening this important hearing
entitled, ``Affordable Housing Needs for America's Low-Income
Veterans.''
As a Nation, we owe no greater debt than the one we owe to
our veterans for their unwavering protection of our very
freedom, providing suitable housing, affordable housing, and
supportive services to these individuals should be the goal of
all policymakers, and I believe it is our goal, our collective
goal. This hearing represents an important opportunity for the
committee to take a good look at the housing needs of our
veterans.
Recent studies have shown that a disproportionately large
percentage of the overall homeless population is comprised of
veterans, and that this percentage continues to grow. This
growing trend not only raises questions about the adequacy of
homeless shelters services available to veterans, but also
about the availability of affordable housing for low-income
veterans.
The statistics on this subject are also not encouraging.
The Department of Veterans Affairs estimates that as of
September 2006, there were 24 million veterans living in the
United States and Puerto Rico, and of this population, 196,000
are homeless on any given night, making up 19 percent of the
total homeless population and one-third of the adult homeless
population. There are numerous reasons for this
overrepresentation of homeless veterans within the overall
homeless population that could include mental health diagnosis,
addictions to alcohol and other substances, and physical health
problems.
According to an August 2007 GAO study, low-income veteran
households who rent their home are not faring much better. The
GAO study found that 2.3 million veteran households that are
low-income renters, of that 2.3 million, 1.3 million experience
housing affordability problems. In my own State of West
Virginia, studies show that between 51 and 55 percent of
veteran renters are low income. GAO also found that low-income
veteran households are less likely to receive HUD rental
assistance than other low-income households.
I hope that through today's hearing, we can gain a better
understanding of the housing needs of our veterans. I thank all
of the witnesses for their dedication to this issue and for
their opportunity to enlighten us as a committee. Our Nation's
heroes deserve the very best that we have to offer, and I look
forward to hearing the testimony. I yield back.
Chairwoman Waters. Thank you very much. We have gotten an
agreement from the members on the subcommittee that Mr. Green,
the author of the bills that we are focusing on today--who also
has an important bill on the Floor--will go first with his
opening statement, and then we will go to the other members and
quickly get to the testimony. Hopefully, Mr. Green, you will be
around for the question and answer period.
But with that, I will recognize you for 5 minutes for your
opening statement.
Mr. Green. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. I greatly
appreciate your convening this most important hearing. And
Madam Chairwoman, if I may say so, you have truly been a friend
of those who are living in the streets of life, whether they be
veterans or whether they be persons without any portfolio at
all, you have truly been a friend.
I also would like to thank Ranking Member Capito for her
efforts to assist and to be a part of making it possible for
all persons to have a place to call home. The chairman of the
full committee and the ranking member of the full committee,
that would be Chairman Frank and Ranking Member Bachus, merit
our expressions of appreciation as well.
We have two bills on the Floor--the Homes for Heroes Act
and the Veterans Homlessness Prevention Act--and when I say the
Floor, I mean within this committee. Before I go to them, I'd
like to make just a few comments. Some of what I will say has
been said, but some things are so important that they bear
repeating.
Let me start by paraphrasing words from Father Dennis
O'Brien. Father O'Brien reminds us that the ultimate protector
of freedom is the soldier. He reminds us that it's not the
reporter who ultimately protects freedom of the press; it's the
soldier. It's not the poet who protects freedom of speech; it's
the soldier. It's not the activist who protects our freedom to
demonstrate. He reminds us that the soldier who salutes the
flag is the soldier who serves beneath the flag. It is the
soldier's body that is draped by the flag. And it is the
soldier who allows the protestor to burn the flag.
The soldier makes real our great American ideals, which is
why we must demonstrate concern for our soldiers who are
sleeping in the streets of life. We are blessed to be in the
richest country in the world, a country where we have homes or
houses for our cars. They're called garages. And, however, as
so many are sleeping in the suites of life, we have many who
are sleeping in the streets of life.
Approximately 800,000 persons on any given night will sleep
in the streets of life. We can do better. Two hundred thousand
of these homeless persons are veterans. Four hundred thousand
veterans will sleep on the streets of life in the course of a
year, 400,000 different veterans. We can truly do better.
In Texas, we have about 16,000 homeless veterans--2,500 in
Houston alone. We have 1.5 million veterans who have incomes
below the poverty level; 643,000 of these have incomes at 50
percent of the poverty level. We can do better. Vets are 11
percent of the population, and 25 percent of the homeless,
depending on who's counting. I'm not sure anyone really knows,
but we do know that we have a significant number and we have
too many. Someone might ask, how many is too many, Al Green?
The answer is one--one sleeping in the streets of life is too
many.
A report from the National Alliance to End Homelessness
found that the lack of affordable housing is the primary cause
of this concern that we bring to your attention today. More
than 467,000 veterans are severely rent-burdened. That means
that they are paying more than 50 percent of their income in
rent, depending on who's counting again. And 43 percent of
these are receiving food stamps. Among the homeless veterans,
half have mental illnesses. About 56 percent are African
American or Latino. Two-thirds of them suffer from alcohol or
some sort of substance abuse.
We must be do better, and this is why we've introduced H.R.
3329, the Homes for Heroes Act, along with Representative
Michael Michaud. I am so honored to have his assistance. He is
a person who is chairing the Subcommittee on Veterans Affairs.
Let me get that title correct. The Veterans Affairs Health
Subcommittee. I also am honored that Congresswoman Maxine
Waters, and Representative Patrick Murphy, an Iraq veteran,
have been of great assistance to us, and they are also
sponsoring one of these pieces of legislation that I shall call
to your attention. I'd like to thank their staffs, as well.
But to H.R. 3329, this piece of legislation, the Homes for
Heroes Act, would provide a special assistant for veterans
affairs with HUD. We need someone in HUD who is looking out for
vets. It establishes a $200 million assistance program for
permanent supportive housing and services for low-income
veterans. Someone has to help them as they move from the
streets of life back into life as we know it. This is why we
have a $1 million assistance program. It provides grants and
assistance to these service providers who can help them make
these transitions. And hopefully, we can have a holistic
approach that will deal with more than just the homeless
circumstance that we can see. There are oftentimes
circumstances that we cannot see that must be addressed as
well.
The program will call for 20,000 vouchers annually for
veterans, and an annual report to Congress on the needs of
homeless veterans and the steps that HUD will be taking to
address the needs of these veterans.
May I have 30 seconds? Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. And
finally, in the second bill, this is a 2-year, $25 million
pilot program that will provide for 10,000 vouchers for
veterans annually for 2008 and $750,000 in technical
assistance. I just want to conclude with we can do better, we
must do better. God Bless America, and thank God for the
American soldier.
I yield back.
Chairwoman Waters. Thank you very much. I will now
recognize the gentleman from Connecticut, Congressman Shays,
for 5 minutes.
Mr. Shays. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, and I thank our
ranking member as well. Before Mr. Green leaves, I just want to
tell him how much I admire his work on so many issues, and
particularly this issue, and I look forward to co-sponsoring
his bills.
Madam Chairwoman, I requested, obviously along with others,
a hearing examining the rising rates of homelessness among our
Nation's veterans after reviewing a recent analysis of census
and Veterans Administration records conducted by the Alliance
to End Homelessness, which concluded that veterans make up a
disproportionate share of the homeless population.
While veterans only represent 13 percent of the civilian
population aged 18 and over, they account for 26 percent of our
Nation's homeless population. This is simply unacceptable. This
disparity is especially concerning as our Nation's troops in
Iraq and Afghanistan return home. While the VA currently has
over 19,000 transitional housing beds for homeless veterans,
and has invested in new initiatives specifically targeting at-
risk populations, various Governmental Accountability Office
(GAO) and VA studies indicate that the VA still lacks the
capacity to provide timely access to health services for
veterans at risk for homelessness.
Veterans are twice as likely to be chronically homeless
compared to other Americans. Additional obstacles including
mental health-related problems, weakened social networks,
highly successful occupational demands, and nontransferability
of skills to civilian jobs create the need for additional
supportive services for this population. The National Alliance
to End Homelessness found that nearly half-a-million of our
Nation's veterans are severely rent-burdened and devote more
than 50 percent of their income to rent.
Permanent supportive housing remains the number one unmet
need of homeless veterans. Section 8 vouchers provided through
HUD and VASH, a supportive housing program between Housing and
Urban Development and Veterans Affairs Supportive Housing, are
an effective means of getting veterans in housing, but funding
increases to the program have only kept existing vouchers and
not expanded program participation.
While Federal funding for a variety of supportive services
directed to our homeless veterans continues to increase, many
homeless veterans remain underserved, and it may be that we
need to develop better methods of informing our veterans about
the programs to which they are entitled.
The VA continues to support programs including healthcare
for homeless veterans, domicile care of homeless veterans,
compensated work therapy, and the grant and per diem program.
Funding for the homeless veterans reintegration program,
administered by the Department of Labor, has also steadily
increased since 1998.
It also seems to me that the identification and expansion
of successful local programs and community initiatives is also
important. An estimated 5,000 veterans in my home State of
Connecticut are homeless. A successful model that I hope we can
expand upon is one undertaken by Homes for the Brave in
Bridgeport, which has provided really excellent transitional
housing and supportive services to our community's homeless
veterans for the past 7 years.
We all care deeply about the well-being of our veterans. I
look forward to hearing from our witnesses their
recommendations for supporting this vulnerable population. And,
again, thanks to you, Madam Chairwoman, and to Mr. Green, and
to my ranking member.
Chairwoman Waters. Thank you very much. The gentlewoman
from New York, Ms. Velazquez.
Ms. Velazquez. I will ask unanimous consent that my entire
opening statement be included into the record.
Chairwoman Waters. Thank you very much. Congressman
Neugebauer.
Mr. Neugebauer. Well, thank you, Madam Chairwoman, and I
just want to echo what my other colleagues have said. It is
important as we have an all-volunteer service in our country
and we are making promises and representation to the men and
women who are putting their lives on the line for our country,
it is important for us to make sure that we keep our promises
as well as to those who have served in the past. And so I look
forward to discussing this issue. It is important.
You know, I think making sure that our veterans have a safe
and warm place to sleep, but more importantly also, make sure
that the freedoms and the opportunities that they fought for,
that they're allowed to participate in. And so along with this
initiative, making sure that we have job training and making
sure that as our soldiers come back from war that we are able
to integrate them back into the economy and to provide jobs and
opportunity for them, because it is--probably they have a
greater entitlement to be able to participate and enjoy the
fruits, the freedoms, and the opportunities in America than
just about any of us.
So this is a very important hearing, and I look forward to
our witnesses today and seeing what we can do to make sure that
we do take care of America's finest. I thank you.
Chairwoman Waters. Thank you very much. The gentleman from
Missouri, Mr. Cleaver.
Mr. Cleaver. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. I don't need the
entire 5 minutes. I'd like to express my appreciation to you
and to Ms. Capito for the hearing, and to my colleague, Al
Green, for his vision in putting forth legislation to deal with
what I consider to be one of the major problems facing us.
I've had many veterans say to me that we seem to be
supportive while they are in battle, but when they return, we
seem to forget them. There are a potpourri of complaints they
register, and one of them was very clear to me. As I mentioned
before, in my district, we do a stand down in August of each
year, and we average about 600 veterans. I don't even know how
the communication gets out, but they all show up at Emanuel
High School and we go through the whole process of providing a
meal, shaves, haircuts, some medical attention, dental
attention, and it is amazing that after this one Saturday, they
return to, in many instances, the banks of the Missouri River
where many of them stay.
I represent, of course, Harry Truman's district. This seat
is Harry Truman's in a large sense. And the 33rd President of
our country was someone who understood what our veterans
experienced when they return home, and so what he did at the
end of World War II was to begin the process of providing
housing for veterans. The first unit was actually in our
district. It was called Ridgeway Heights. It was known previous
to that as Boulevard Village. But at any rate, it provided
housing for homeless veterans way back after World War II.
We've not done enough since then. Today it's a housing complex
for veterans as well as other citizens. There are about 200
people who still live there at Ridgeway Heights.
And I agree with our President, my leader in our
congressional district, Harry Truman, that we need to take care
of our veterans. I also believe that when you serve, you
deserve, and that is exactly what I compliment my colleague for
seeing, and I look forward to receiving the testimony of our
witnesses and delving even deeper into this issue.
Thank you, Madam Chairwoman.
Chairwoman Waters. Thank you very much. The gentleman from
New Jersey, Mr. Sires.
Mr. Sires. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, for this important
hearing. And I want to compliment my colleague, Congressman
Green, for all his hard work and for always being there for the
veterans.
I just have a couple of statements. I served as a local
mayor, and one of the problems that we had in this community
was the housing that was built, apartments that were built for
veterans after the war, it was turned over to the housing
authority at one stretch. And HUD was supposed to manage the
people who were there, collecting the rents and everything
else. But one of the problems that we encountered was that the
housing authority was not allowed to invest the money in
repairing and maintaining the building.
One of the things that I want to find out is if this policy
is still there, because there are still houses that were built
after the war, apartments, basically--I come from a very urban
area--that are part of the housing authority. And somewhere
along the line, these are veterans who are living there. And if
we don't allow some of the investments to make their life
better, I think the policy needs to be reviewed.
The other issue I think we have to look at is, before the
veterans become homeless, what can we do to assist those
families? Because I think that's where some of the problems can
be headed off. As they serve in this army, it puts a great deal
of economic pressure on the families as they come back, they're
practically in debt because they just can't do it economically.
So I think a combination of both things, just before they come
back, and if you could address that issue on the policy or look
into it, I know that is disruptive, but that's what I wanted to
say. Thank you very much.
Chairwoman Waters. Thank you very much. Next, I will
recognize Mr. Donnelly.
Mr. Donnelly. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, and I want to
thank the ranking member and Mr. Green for your tremendous work
in this area. I am blessed to be a member of both the Financial
Services Committee and the Veterans Affairs Committee, so this
is an issue of significant importance to me.
Last week, I visited some of the homeless shelters in my
district in order to see how we were dealing with the needs of
our veterans and how we were appropriately taking care of them.
This is not just another opportunity for the Congress to work
on a program. This is an obligation that we as a country have
to the people who have given us the very freedom that we have
every day. And so it is critically important.
We have to get this right. This is one of those things that
we cannot take a chance on getting wrong, and so, Mr. Green,
your work has been extraordinarily important to all of us, and
we appreciate it. I look forward to being part of this.
Thank you, Madam Chairwoman.
Chairwoman Waters. Mr. Ellison was here, and I think he
left, so we will proceed with our first panel. I'd like to
introduce our first witness panel. First, we have Mr. Mark
Johnston, Deputy Assistance Secretary for Special Needs, U.S.
Department of Housing and Urban Development.
Next, we have Mr. Pete Dougherty, Director, Homeless
Veterans Programs, U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs. I want
the members to be aware that due to the short notice VA
received regarding this hearing, I've extended the deadline for
submission of their written testimony for the record. Mr.
Dougherty will provide oral testimony and will be available for
questions.
And finally, we have Mr. David Wood, Director, Financial
Markets and Community Investment, U.S. Government
Accountability Office.
Thank you all for appearing before the subcommittee today,
and without objection, your written statements will be made a
part of the record. You will now be recognized for a 5-minute
summary of your testimony.
We will start with Mr. Johnston.
STATEMENT OF MARK JOHNSTON, DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY FOR
SPECIAL NEEDS, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HOUSING AND URBAN DEVELOPMENT
Mr. Johnston. Thank you, Chairwoman Waters, Ranking Member
Capito, and members of the subcommittee. I am pleased to be
here today to represent Secretary Alfonso Jackson of the U.S.
Department of Housing and Urban Development. The Secretary
recognizes the moral responsibility HUD has to its veterans.
This is especially true for those who have served our country
who now sleep on the streets of this great Nation.
The Department administers a variety of housing programs
that can assist veterans. These include the Housing Choice
Voucher program, the Public Housing program, the Community
Development Block Grant program, and HOME Investment
Partnerships. These programs, by statute, provide great
flexibility so that communities can use these resources to meet
their particular local needs, including the needs of their
veterans.
In addition to these programs, Congress has authorized a
variety of targeted programs for special needs populations,
including homeless persons. Unfortunately, veterans are well-
represented in the homeless population. HUD is committed to
serving homeless veterans and recognizes that Congress charges
HUD to serve all homeless groups. HUD provides an array of
housing and supportive services to all homeless groups,
including homeless veterans.
I'd like to take a moment to outline our activities that
specifically relate to serving homeless veterans. In February
of 2007, HUD competitively awarded a total of nearly $1.3
billion in homeless assistance. A record 5,288 projects were
awarded funds. It's important to note that veterans are
eligible for all of our homeless assistance programs, and HUD
emphasizes the importance of serving veterans in its grant
application.
A total of 205 applications were submitted wherein at least
half of the program clients would be veterans. Of that number,
90 percent of these veteran-focused projects were successfully
awarded funding. We awarded just over $41 million to these
projects. In addition, we awarded funds to projects that will
be serving a smaller share of homeless veterans, but serving
veterans nonetheless. When you combine all projects serving
veterans, targeted and non-targeted projects, we awarded funds
to more than 1,420 projects for over $342 million.
To underscore our continued commitment to serve homeless
veterans, we have highlighted veterans in our annual planning
and grantmaking process. In the grant application, for
instance, we score applications on whether organizations that
represent homeless veterans are at the planning table. Because
of HUD's emphasis, over 90 percent of all communities
nationwide have homeless veteran representation.
Many of those living on our streets in this country are
unfortunately veterans. The Administration's goal of ending
chronic homelessness is helping to meet the needs of these
veterans. Because the chronically homeless face many
challenges, it's imperative to involve many partners. HUD, the
VA, the Department of Labor, the Department of Health and Human
Services, and other agencies that make up the Interagency
Council on Homelessness, have worked together to achieve the
goal of ending chronic homelessness at the Federal level and
work regularly with State and local partners.
With a sustained effort since 2002, we are starting to see
real results. HUD just recently announced an 11.5 percent
reduction in chronic homelessness nationwide between 2005 and
2006. This is the first time since the Federal homelessness
programs were created in 1987 that this country has seen a
reduction of homelessness of any kind. We are currently
reviewing the 2007 data to see if this is a trend, and we'll be
releasing that information in the next couple of months.
To further illustrate HUD's involvement in addressing the
needs of veterans, I represent HUD on VA's Secretarial Advisory
Committee on Homeless Veterans. In fact, I returned just
yesterday, as did Mr. Dougherty, who oversees this committee,
from a 2-day advisory committee meeting where we met with
various Federal agencies to discuss the programs and how they
can better meet the needs of homeless veterans. The Department
also serves veterans by providing technical assistance. In one
recent effort, we dedicated $350,000 to enhance assistance to
providers serving homeless veterans, to update existing
materials to help them, and to coordinate better with VA's
local planning process.
In conclusion, I want to reiterate my and HUD's desire and
commitment to help our veterans, including those who are
homeless. We will continue to work with our Federal, State, and
local partners to do so.
Madam Chairwoman, I would be glad to address any questions
at the appropriate time.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Johnston can be found on
page 84 of the appendix.]
Chairwoman Waters. Okay. Thank you very much. Next we will
have Mr. Peter--what is the correct pronunciation of your name?
Mr. Dougherty. I pronounce it ``Dougherty.''
Chairwoman Waters. Dougherty. I've heard three different
pronunciations, including the one I first started off with.
Thank you very much.
Mr. Dougherty. Ms. Waters, actually, we've had about 10
different ways to pronounce it in my career.
STATEMENT OF PETER H. DOUGHERTY, DIRECTOR, HOMELESS VETERANS
PROGRAMS, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF VETERANS AFFAIRS
Mr. Dougherty. Chairwoman Waters, I'm very pleased to be
here with you and the members of the subcommittee to discuss
this very important issue. At the Department of Veterans
Affairs, our mission is clear and consistent: to do all within
our authority and ability to help those men and women readjust
back successfully into civilian society after their military
experience ends. This adjustment is difficult for many,
particularly those who are homeless.
The Department of Veterans Affairs administers a variety of
programs, many of which you have already outlined, that help to
reintegrate veterans back into mainstream society. We are the
Nation's largest single provider of healthcare. We provide
healthcare to more than 5 million veterans each year, and we
provide healthcare specifically to more than 100,000 veterans
who are identified as being homeless.
We're second only to Social Security in the amount of
economic benefits we provide to members of this society. We
provide nearly 3 million veterans and their families with
benefits, $27 billion in compensation benefits and nearly 3
billion in pension benefits annually.
Veterans who are homeless are far more likely to be
eligible and receive benefits once identified and once they
have claims that are brought to us. We have a single family
home loan guarantee program that was originally started at the
end of World War II, which was really designed to help get
veterans into housing in ways that private sector non-veterans
could not do. That program has been very successful over the
years and has helped many of those low-income veterans who are
even marginally employed to get in without having to make
downpayments.
The Department's mainstream programs that we provide are
also supplemented by many homeless-specific programs. We
provide more than 15,000 veterans transitional housing services
in virtually every State in the union. We have over 8,500 units
available today. We are already approved to have 12,000, and we
will soon announce funding announcements that will add housing
for those veterans.
We also provide over 6,000 units of housing in our
residential treatment program in VA-operated programs under our
domiciliary care programs and other residential treatment
programs. Madam Chairwoman, you've already mentioned the very
successful HUD-VASH program, and that provides nearly 2,000
veterans with a safe, decent place to stay.
Our efforts to reduce homelessness are in fact having
success. We are tracking numbers that indicate the number of
veterans who are homeless is going down similar to what HUD has
reported. While that is positive, as Mr. Green indicated, far
too many veterans are homeless in America.
You specifically referenced, and I will respond back about
the HUD-VASH program. As you mentioned, the HUD-VASH program is
a very successful program. The Appropriations Committee has at
least agreed between the two Houses to support an increased
number of HUD-VASH vouchers. That program is very, very
successful in helping those veterans move forward.
We would look forward to the opportunity to case manage
additional vouchers. We've testified in favor of additional
vouchers and think that the ability to manage what we think is
the best housing by HUD and supportive services by the
Department of Veterans Affairs is a very successful program.
I also would be remiss if I did not mention that the
Administration has put forth some legislative proposals,
including one that would allow us to provide supportive
services grants to veterans living in permanent housing.
Senator Akaka has introduced that in the Senate as part of S.
2273. That legislation is pending and has not had any action
yet.
We look forward and have continued to be an active partner
with our friends at HUD and the other Federal agencies, much of
which we are happy to talk about here with you. We think this
is an important issue, and as always, we're willing to aid this
committee's effort in any effort to make housing more available
for low-income veterans.
Thank you.
Chairwoman Waters. Thank you very much.
Mr. David Wood.
STATEMENT OF DAVID G. WOOD, DIRECTOR, FINANCIAL MARKETS AND
COMMUNITY INVESTMENT, US. GOVERNMENT ACCOUNTABILITY OFFICE
Mr. Wood. Thank you, Chairwoman Waters. My statement today
is based on a report that we issued in August 2007 in response
to a congressional mandate. The conference report accompanying
the Fiscal Year 2006 Quality of Life and Veterans Affairs
Appropriations Act directed GAO to report on housing assistance
to low-income veterans.
In consultation with the Committees on Appropriations in
both Houses of Congress, we focused our work on veterans who
rent their housing. We examined four topics:
First, the income and demographic characteristics of
veteran renter households, including the extent to which such
households were facing rent affordability problems.
Second, the extent to which the Department of Housing and
Urban Development's rental assistance programs recognize
veteran status when determining eligibility.
Third, the extent to which local housing agencies and
private landlords that administer HUD's programs offer a
veterans' preference when selecting tenants. And finally, the
extent to which veterans actually received rental assistance
from HUD.
To identify the characteristics of veteran rental
households, we used data from the Census Bureau's 2005 American
Community Survey. Among other things, we found that in 2005,
there were about 4.3 million veteran renter households
nationwide, and just over half were considered low income; that
is, their incomes were 80 percent or less of their area's
median income. About half of those low-income veteran
households, or about 1.3 million in total, had housing
affordability problems. That is, their rental costs exceeded 30
percent of their household incomes.
Compared with non-veteran renter households, veterans were
somewhat less likely to be low income or to have a housing
affordability problem. However, they were more likely to
include a household member who was elderly, aged 62 or older,
or who had a disability. In reviewing HUD's major rental
assistance programs, we found that they're not required to take
a household's veteran status into account when determining
eligibility. However, veterans can benefit from HUD's programs
as long as they meet the income restrictions and other
eligibility criteria.
The local housing agencies that administer HUD's programs
are authorized, but are not required, to offer preferences in
selecting tenants. Such preferences may be offered to veterans
or to others, such as the elderly, families with children, or
homeless persons. Our contacts with many of the largest
agencies revealed that most did not offer a preference for
veterans. Specifically, of the 34 largest agencies that
administer the public housing program, 14 offered a veterans
preference. And 13 of the 40 largest agencies that administer
the Housing Choice Voucher program did so.
In addition, our work indicated that the private landlords
participating in HUD's project-based programs generally did not
offer a veterans preference. To determine how many veterans
were actually assisted by HUD, we matched data from the
Department of Veterans Affairs with HUD's data on program
tenants. We found that at least 250,000 low-income veteran
households were assisted by HUD's programs in 2005. That was
about 11 percent of all such households.
However, as noted previously, veteran households were less
likely to receive HUD rental assistance than their non-veteran
counterparts. About 19 percent of the non-veteran households
were assisted through HUD programs. Our discussions with local
and Federal agency officials identified some potential reasons
for this difference. These included variations in housing
needs, infrequent use of veterans preferences, and requirements
that direct some assistance to extremely low-income households.
Chairwoman Waters, that concludes my prepared statement,
and I'd be glad to respond to any questions that you or other
members may have.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Wood can be found on page 97
of the appendix.]
Chairwoman Waters. Thank you very much. We will now proceed
with questions for panel one. Mr. Dougherty, I understand that
permanent supportive housing providers who access HUD McKinney-
Vento funds and other sources of services financing often use
those funds to pay for their own staff or that of nonprofit
partners to deliver services. By contrast, I understand that
under the HUD-VASH initiative, VA staff themselves deliver
services.
Can you describe the pros and cons of each approach, and
whether the VA currently has authority to increase the extent
to which it contracts out the delivery of supportive services
to homeless veterans and permanent supportive housing, or
should have increased authority to do so?
Mr. Dougherty. Madam Chairwoman, the HUD-VASH program
operates as you have indicated. We provide clinically trained
VA employees who provide case management services to those
veterans who are in permanent housing under the public housing
authority. As you noted in your opening statement, the success
of that program has been very good. Veterans who participate in
that program get the benefit of direct access.
When you're working with these veterans, many of them have
long-term and chronic health problems, and having a VA case
manager who can work with the Department because they're a
Department employee, to help them access benefits and needed
healthcare services, has been very, very beneficial.
Now we don't have any specific authority, as you know,
having served on the House Veterans Affairs Committee as well.
Permanent housing is a new concept for us. We, by statute, have
not had the ability to do this in the past. We prefer not to be
in the housing business. But we think the pilot program that I
described briefly under S. 2273 would give us the ability to
look at the other form of supportive housing--services grants
to organizations that could provide supportive services to
veterans in permanent housing.
We think that would be successful, based upon what the
community and through our CHALENG assessment meetings tell us,
that there is a need for supportive services and permanent
housing. It is a very heavy demand at this time.
Chairwoman Waters. Thank you very much. Mr. Johnston, HUD's
homeless assistance programs clearly serve many veterans. How
good are your providers at tracking the veteran status of
program participants? In particular, I'm interested in how
successful they are at capitalizing on opportunities to obtain
income and other benefits for veteran clients.
Mr. Johnston. Okay. We encourage the communities and the
grantees to serve veterans in a couple of different ways. The
first is, we give points in our competition for the continuum
of care, which represents all of our competitive programs, and
that represents about $1.3 billion. To the extent they include
organizations that represent veterans at the planning table
when the decisions are made for which projects will be funded,
they get a higher score.
As a result of that emphasis on the score and the
competitive nature of our programs, we have a high level of
participation. About 90 percent of all communities in the
Nation do have active veteran participation at the planning
table. Moreover, when we collect information from each awarded
grantee at the end of each year, what we call the annual
progress report, we ask for specific information, such as
veteran status for every client being served, as well as
income. And we look at about eleven different income
categories--veterans' benefits, SSI, SSDI, Medicaid, etc.
So we have a pretty good handle within projects the extent
to which they can increase their income, and we heartily
encourage that increased income. In fact, they get a higher
score for that as well. If they are able to engage veterans and
non-veterans in getting into mainstream programs, we give them
extra points in our competition.
Chairwoman Waters. So I suppose your answer is that you are
doing everything that you can to make sure that veterans are
getting their benefits and what they have, what they're
eligible for? Because as I understand it, there are homeless
veterans who have not been able to negotiate the system and to
get disability benefits and other benefits that they're
eligible for. Most of us in our offices receive many, many
calls from veterans to assist them, and I have one person in my
Los Angeles office who is totally dedicated to working with
veterans. We have to work very, very hard to sometimes get them
the disability benefits in particular that they are eligible
for. And sometimes it takes us months in order to correct what
we think are problems that have been made in the way the
benefits are allocated. But I guess the bottom line is, do you
think that your people are doing a good job with this?
Mr. Johnston. Well, we could clearly always do better. One
of the benefits of the program that this committee has
authorized, the Supportive Housing program, which is our
largest homeless program, is that it's not just for housing. We
spend about $435 million a year on services to address the very
issue that you've raised. Most of that money for supportive
services goes to case management, which helps clients go
through the system and access those various Federal benefits
and State and local benefits.
So we can always do better, and we encourage increased
access to the programs, and continuums that do a good job get a
higher score and therefore get more funds.
Chairwoman Waters. All right. Thank you very much, and I
think I'm going to ask my staff to assist me in making sure we
understand how you can identify which veterans you have
actually connected with their benefits so that perhaps they can
get off the streets and not have to rely on our system. With
that, Ms. Capito?
Ms. Capito. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. I have a question,
a real life scenario. I have a veteran who returned from Iraq
with very severe injuries, both physical and mental injuries--
he's 100 percent disabled, I believe--and he is a single father
now. When he came back, he went back to live with his parents,
and he has asked for our assistance to try to help him get into
a housing development or public housing situation. He said that
what he has found is that his disability income exceeds any
kind of help that he could possibly get.
Do some of these vouchers take into consideration that
people who have very high disabilities who may need additional
help, can't hold a job, and so should be able to qualify for
these housing benefits?
Mr. Johnston. Let me begin, and Pete may jump in as well in
terms of HUD-VASH. The Section 8 program has a requirement that
30 percent of the person's income would be contributed towards
rent. And so if they have a very modest income, then their rent
contribution will be very modest. If a person has no income,
then they don't contribute any.
Ms. Capito. But is their retirement and disability from the
VA considered income?
Mr. Johnston. It isn't considered income.
Ms. Capito. Yes. Okay. I'm sorry. Go ahead.
Mr. Dougherty. If I could add onto that, one of the things
that is in the appropriations act gives the Department of
Veterans Affairs some significant authority--if passed, it
would give us the ability to waive out some of those
requirements. So if we said that veteran needed that kind of
housing, they would be able to be placed in that housing.
Ms. Capito. And that can be done through what mechanism?
Mr. Dougherty. Under the appropriations bill that has been
agreed to between both Houses, it gives the Department of
Veterans Affairs the ability, if we make the referral of that
veteran for that kind of housing--
Ms. Capito. From the VA?
Mr. Dougherty. If the VA made the request, then that would
basically trump the normal local housing authority
requirements. Because income is in fact considered otherwise.
Ms. Capito. Yes. That's interesting. We also, in the State
of West Virginia, have just opened a State veterans nursing
home, which I think is another issue. I mean, I know there are
different age groups that we're looking at here, and certainly
our older veterans are reaching a point where they're not going
to be able to stay in their own homes. They may need some
assistance either that they haven't needed in the past, and
because of some injuries that they may have sustained as long
ago as World War II, may need that additional assistance.
Is this a growing problem or is this something that the
VA--because I know there's a shortage of beds that are
specifically designated for veterans.
Mr. Dougherty. I'm not the technical expert. Actually, Mr.
Basher, who will testify later, and is a State director of
veterans affairs may be better to answer this than I am. But
clearly, we look at the demographic trends. If you look at the
Department of Veterans Affairs and you look at veterans
generally, we're about 20 years ahead of the rest of the
country when it comes to geriatrics and extended care needs. We
have greatly expanded the number of nursing home State
partnerships across the country as a result of that.
Ms. Capito. All right. Thank you.
Mr. Dougherty. As well as our own internal programs.
Ms. Capito. Thank you. I would just like to say that I
think our veterans are going to be best served when we have
great coordination between agencies. And I think of course
we're seeing that in the panel today, the fact that you all
were in a meeting yesterday, obviously talking about this very
issue I think is a step in the right direction, and I think
it's something that we need to really reaffirm and more
affirmatively work on so that we can maximize the resources for
our veterans.
Thank you.
Mr. Dougherty. You make a very good point. And if I might
add, one of the things that the Department of Housing and Urban
Development did is to try to make sure that the people being
served were being identified, so that their accounting, if you
will, is now better. And they're using a methodology now that
if we can sort of crack the nut with local authorities, we
allow VA to better identify who is being served.
In the City of New York, for example, if you're coming into
the New York emergency services shelters, names, dates of
birth, and Social Security numbers are included. What our
benefits offices are now able to do is to run that information
from the City against VA benefits records. That gives us an
opportunity to know there may be 40 homeless veterans living in
a certain location where the opportunity to get them benefits
and healthcare services exists in a way that it did not exist
in the past.
That coordination has been very helpful. I think it will be
very helpful in the next few years in helping to make sure more
of those veterans get access to healthcare and benefits from
the VA.
Chairwoman Waters. Thank you very much. Without objection,
we'll continue in the order that we first gave our opening
statements, giving the author, Mr. Green, who must get to the
Floor, an opportunity to raise questions now. We'll recognize
you, Mr. Green, for 5 minutes.
Mr. Green. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. And thank you,
witnesses, for your testimony. Let me start with Mr. Johnston.
Mr. Johnston, sir, I see this as an opportunity for HUD and
Congress to work together for the benefit of our veterans. I
assume that you see a similar opportunity. Does HUD look
favorably upon the position that we have articulated today?
Mr. Johnston. The Administration and therefore HUD does not
yet have a position on either bill, so I'm not able to discuss
them at great length in terms of the Administration's position.
I will observe that I think there are some very good elements
in the bills. And let me just jump on one that there is a need
for that and we have been addressing, and that is the special
advisor who would be at HUD within the Office of the Secretary.
We do have a special advisor on a full time veteran, who is
a special advisor on homelessness and veteran issues across the
Department. The person doesn't report directly to the
Secretary, but works directly with me on a regular basis. And I
think there are some commonalities that perhaps we could even
do better on that are included in your bill that we could even
do administratively.
Mr. Green. Let's speak for just a moment about the
vouchers. Mr. Dougherty indicated that additional vouchers
would be welcome. Would HUD support additional Section 8
vouchers?
Mr. Johnston. Traditionally, our position has been that
HUD-VASH was a very well-done demonstration, and I can speak
from personal experience. I was at HUD back then when we
developed it and I personally helped develop the HUD-VASH
program with Paul Herrera and others at the VA. So to see this
connection of HUD doing housing, and another agency such as the
VA doing services, I think was a great example of what can
happen.
We, about a year after HUD-VASH started up, proposed--
Mr. Green. Mr. Johnston, if I may, my time is very limited,
and pardon me for saying this: no disrespect intended, but
sometimes when folks finish, I don't know whether they have
said ``yes'' or ``no.'' So I have to ask you: Could you kindly
indicate whether HUD, yes or no, would welcome the additional
vouchers that Congress would accord our veterans?
Mr. Johnston. To be honest, I can't give you--I'd be glad
to answer the question, but I really can't give a simple yes or
no answer to that question. Could I just take two sentences?
Mr. Green. Of course.
Mr. Johnston. We created in 1992 the Shelter Plus Care
program modeled on HUD-VASH. It's our largest permanent housing
program that targets disabled persons, including veterans. And
that's a wonderful program that HUD has been funded from the
Congress for years on.
Mr. Green. Well, I appreciate that, and I appreciate much
of what you've said. But I'm detecting some hesitation and
perhaps a degree of consternation in the way you are presenting
this. It seems to me that the empirical evidence supports what
we are talking about. It seems almost intuitively obvious to
the most casual observer that this kind of assistance is
needed. But I detect a little bit of pushback from HUD, and I'm
being candid with you because it causes me some concern to
think that HUD is going to have some pushback.
Now one of the things that I'm concerned about also is
whether HUD is going to--perhaps next week or next month or
within the foreseeable future or before Congress can finish
what we're doing and try to work with HUD in a cooperative
way--have some program that is going to address homeless
veterans and the need for assistance that in some way would
cause us not to be able to deliver as much as we can from
Congress? Is there something on the horizon that HUD is about
to do?
Mr. Johnston. Well, our traditional approach, which
continues today, is to use our mainstream housing programs,
programs like Section 8, public housing, CDBG, and HOME--
Mr. Green. Am I to take that as a yes? That you're about to
do something?
Mr. Johnston. Well, I guess we'd--I guess my answer would
be we've already done something, and that is we submitted a
budget--
Mr. Green. Well, you can tell me what the something is. But
in Texas, when a person talks the way you're talking, we say
they are ``fixing to do something.'' Are you fixing to do
something?
Mr. Johnston. Our approach is to give maximum flexibility
to localities and let them make the call.
Mr. Green. Sir, we're talking about helping veterans. Can
you kindly indicate if you're about to do something? We all
want to be on the same page.
Mr. Johnston. Okay.
Mr. Green. Are you fixing to do something?
Mr. Johnston. We do not have a specific proposal to create
a brand new program for--
Mr. Green. Are you developing a proposal in response to
what we are proposing?
Mr. Johnston. We are reviewing within the Administration
these two bills.
Mr. Green. Well, I would hope that we can work together. My
time is up. Madam Chairwoman, I sincerely hope that HUD will
work with us so that we can work efficaciously for our
veterans, and I yield back.
Chairwoman Waters. Thank you very much. Next, we will
recognize Mrs. Biggert from Illinois for questions.
Mrs. Biggert. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. I'm sorry that I
missed the testimony, so I hope I don't ask a question that has
already been asked.
One of the panelists later on has a recommendation that all
veterans, when they're exiting military service, should be
assessed as to their housing status, and that the VA should
have resources to assist veterans to access housing. I will
start with Mr. Dougherty. Do you think that's something that
should be done or can be done?
Mr. Dougherty. The Department of Veterans Affairs
coordinates some with the Department of Defense and with the
Department of Labor on transition assistance programs. The
access and availability to healthcare services from the VA and
other benefits, both employment and housing benefits are
reviewed.
I'm not aware that there is a determination made about how
that person will specifically be housed once they leave
military service. My experience would be that many people when
they're first looking at discharging may not have a good answer
of that in their own mind. They may have a variety of options
they think may have available to them that may or may not come
to pass after that.
I do think one of the things that we have said at the
Department of Veterans Affairs consistently is that those
veterans who are discharging, particularly who think they have
a problem in their readjustment and may have some condition as
a result of their military service, are encouraged to come
forward. Quite frankly, when they do, we think that helps us to
put them specifically in connection with both healthcare needs
that they have as well as the benefits assistance that they
need.
Mrs. Biggert. Thank you. Mr. Johnston, do you see the
homeless veterans coming forward to you after they've been out
of the services?
Mr. Johnston. Yes. But the data suggests that it has often
been 10 years or more between when they leave the service and
become homeless. So there are clearly a number of factors being
affected there. When you look at the demographics of veterans
and--the National Alliance report did a wonderful job, I think,
in sort of summarizing a lot of the census data on this--
relative to non-veterans, they do pretty well in a number of
different areas, income, for instance, and unemployment, lower
unemployment than non-veterans, and lower poverty rates than
non-veterans.
So there obviously must be some other reasons that veterans
are disproportionately represented in the homeless population,
and it certainly seems to be that post traumatic stress
syndrome may be one of those factors that contributes to their
homelessness, not immediately, but over time, and effects of
substance abuse, mental health, and so forth, and then over
time they, you know, more often than in the general population,
fall into homelessness.
Mrs. Biggert. You know, in one of the other hearings that
we've had recently, we've been looking at a couple of bills and
looking at the definition of homeless, and between whether it
should be as probably now is the priority of the single person
who is homeless versus the family with children. Do you think
if the definition were changed that this would cut down on the
number of homeless veterans who would be able to be served, or
wouldn't it make any difference?
Mr. Johnston. Well, I attended one of those hearings
recently, and the challenge is that HUD has about 160,000 beds
for homeless people, and there are about 750,000 homeless
people. We have far more homeless people than we have beds, so
to expand the definition beyond 750,000 to something in the
bill, for instance, which is in the range of 10 to 12 million,
I don't know what impact that would have on serving more
people, given the number of beds that we have.
Mrs. Biggert. Thank you. My time has just about expired.
I'll yield back. Thank you.
Chairwoman Waters. Thank you very much. Ms. Velazquez.
Ms. Velazquez. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. Mr. Dougherty,
it has come to my attention that the Dow Fund, a not-for-profit
organization based in New York City, received a veterans grant
to open a shelter in the Brooklyn part of my district. I am
fully supportive of compassionate and effective programs for
veterans, but I have to say that the process through which this
project has been handled with the community raises many
questions. And this is not a NIMBY issue, it's not a not-in-my-
backyard issue. Can you describe the process and criteria used
to rate different grant proposals? And do they include a
community consultation component? Do you require grantees to
engage the community during the planning process?
Mr. Dougherty. Our program is not a local community-driven
process. It's a national competition. The need in the community
is one of the very serious factors that's taken into
consideration. I can't tell you about the specifics without
going back and looking, but I certainly would be happy to--
Ms. Velazquez. Will you do that?
Mr. Dougherty. Absolutely.
Ms. Velazquez. Let me explain to you why. Yes, there is an
astronomical increase in homelessness among veterans in New
York City. But the same is true with low-income communities who
have been forced out from their own communities. The community
where this shelter is going to open has within five blocks two
other shelters with 600 beds. For too long, the government in
New York City neglected this community. We came together. We
fought back, and there is a renaissance. What I'm asking is, go
back and make it part of your rule that there must be community
consultation.
Mr. Dougherty. Well, although we don't have a community
consultation, I think, in the phrase that you're using, we do
solicit that in the application process. It strengthens the
application to show that there is community partnership and
agreement for the program to go forward.
Ms. Velazquez. In this case, it didn't happen. Mr.
Dougherty, given the fact that there are 162,000 soldiers in
Iraq as of November 24, 2007, and that we have not been able to
solve veterans' homelessness for the soldiers of wars dating
back to World War II, how is the Department preparing for the
imminent surge in service demand?
Mr. Dougherty. Well, we are doing a number of things
differently than we did before. We make the availability to
healthcare for veterans who come back from Iraq and Afghanistan
much easier than it has ever been before for those veterans to
access the healthcare system.
I get asked these kinds of questions fairly often. We never
had, with the Vietnam generation and thereafter, any vet
centers. We didn't have any place in the community where you
could go talk to a combat veteran about the experience that you
had and what has happened. We didn't have any homeless programs
within the Department of Veterans Affairs, and we didn't have
hundreds of community providers, some of whom are going to be
represented in the next panel, who are out there helping to
make us aware of the need.
We aggressively outreach to any veteran, particularly those
who have served in Iraq and Afghanistan. I think the different,
as Mr. Johnston mentioned a few moments ago, is that
historically we wouldn't see many of these veterans for many,
many years. Our thrust with the veterans coming back from Iraq
and Afghanistan is to see them early, to get them access to
healthcare and benefits assistance now so that they can, in
fact, do better.
We have had over 400 veterans from Iraq and Afghanistan
served in homeless specific programs already. What we can tell
you is that many of them are doing better than all other
veterans we see as far as getting back into independent living
and getting a good job once again. That is our goal--to
readjust all veterans back into society's mainstream.
So while I agree with you that it's very, very sad to see
any veteran who is homeless, particularly those who have gone
voluntarily to serve their Nation, we're hoping that we are
going to catch many of these who have significant mental
illness problems. That's the most significant issue we found
among this newest group of veterans. The mental illness issue
is the most significant problem, particularly combat-related
PTSD. That is the major source of the problem for many of them.
Their readjustment back has been blocked by that.
Coming in, getting treatment, and then getting on with
their lives and getting back into independent housing and
employment is significant. We think we're not going to have a
surge. We're hoping that we're going to do what good healthcare
ought to be able to do, and that is to address the healthcare
problem as it is emerging, and address it appropriately.
Ms. Velazquez. Thank you.
Chairwoman Waters. Thank you very much. Mr. Shays.
Mr. Shays. I thank you, Madam Chairwoman. I wrestle with
what we do for our veterans like everyone else in Congress. It
seems to me that we are concerned about their health, about
their educational needs, about their housing needs, and I'd add
into that, employment.
When I was in the Peace Corps, when I came home, I was
unemployed for 3 months. It was the most devastating thing I've
ever gone through in my life, because I thought the whole world
would be waiting, and I was looking for one particular kind of
job, and it didn't open up. But I was aware that my wife was
aware that I didn't have a job. I began to doubt my
capabilities. It had tremendous impact on, frankly, my mental
state.
And I'm just wondering how much of this is job-related. In
the presentation of the GAO, there is the background that about
80 percent of veterans own their own homes; 80 percent own
their own homes, a significantly higher percentage than was the
case for non-veterans households. So, in one case of the
homeless, veterans tend to be--there's a greater rate of
homelessness among veterans, but ironically, among those who
own their own homes, there is a greater percent of veterans who
own their own homes versus not. It's the exact opposite.
But then of those who rent, the 20 percent who rent, a good
chunk of them, an estimated 2.3 million or about 53 percent,
were low income. So what I'd like to do is just ask how much of
the homeless problem is just veterans who come home who--and I
have veterans who write me and they say, ``I'm coming home. Can
you help me find employment?'' I find myself writing back and
saying, ``Well, what kind of job are you looking for and what
kind of job do you think you would be qualified for?'' And I
get back an answer that tells me they're really wrestling with
it. They really don't know.
So the irony of this is, could we be dealing with the
homeless problem in a way that's less effective by focusing on
housing, and could we be doing a better job of focusing in on
helping them get jobs so they have income for a place and they
have better self-esteem? That's what I'm wrestling with. And
I'd like to start backwards and start with you, Mr. Wood, and
then we'll go in the other direction.
Mr. Wood. The issue that you raised, I think, has been
raised in the broader context of the recipients of low-income
housing assistance as to whether the fundamental problem is
housing or income, and I don't know that it's ever been
definitively decided one way or the other.
You are correct. The veterans that we looked at were more
likely to be homeowners and in fact, even if you look at low-
income veterans, the homeownership rate was about 68 percent,
which is roughly the national average rate of homeownership for
the population at large. So I don't really have a definitive
answer to you other than to say that certainly the income angle
has been brought up before.
Mr. Shays. And before I get to our other two witnesses,
I'll just add for emphasis, obviously we are dealing with post-
traumatic stress disorder, but I'll tell you this, if you're
unemployed, if you are on the edge with post-traumatic stress
disorder, being unemployed is just going to add to that.
Mr. Dougherty. Mr. Shays, I think you're absolutely right.
In 1994, Secretary Jesse Brown convened the first national
summit on homelessness among veterans. After that summit ended,
a group of experts got together, and the ultimate finding of
that group of experts was that employment was the psychological
barrier that made a veteran feel like they had worth--
Mr. Shays. Unemployment.
Mr. Dougherty. That having employment changed that
position.
Mr. Shays. Oh, I see.
Mr. Dougherty. Unemployment is a very debilitating
condition. The people who serve in the Nation's military are
there, and particularly at this time, because they want to be
there. They want to have a meaningful experience. They know
what they do is important to our country and what they do is
critical for the men and women they serve with.
Not having a job when they come back is obviously very,
very difficult for many of them to deal with. The ability to
get employment is significant. Now as you've indicated, though,
many of them have health-related problems, and what we're
trying to do is trying to shorten that gap so that the veteran
who may not have a job and has health problems stays out of
coming in and getting assistance from us in whatever form.
Because if I have severe combat-related PTSD, I'm not going
to be a very good employee. I'm not going to be there. And if I
get housing immediately, and I don't address the underlying
healthcare issues, I'm not going to stay in that housing very
long before I leave as well. So we comprehensively have to look
at who that veteran is, what their needs are, and address them
appropriately as quickly as possible.
Mr. Shays. Thank you.
Mr. Johnston. I certainly agree that employment is
critical. When we look at our individual grant applications and
applications from an overall community to get HUD homeless
funding, we have two primary performance measures. One is
housing stability, obviously. We want people to be able to move
into housing and stay there. And the second is employment,
because we recognize they may not be eligible for other
benefits or, frankly, more importantly, they want to get to
work.
And so we encourage that, and we support and fund job
training, because it is critical.
Mr. Shays. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman.
Chairwoman Waters. Mr. Cleaver.
Mr. Cleaver. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. Can any of you
give me the requested amount for veterans in the Fiscal Year
2008 budget request?
Mr. Dougherty. How much was requested?
Mr. Cleaver. Yes, sir.
Mr. Dougherty. In the Department of Veterans Affairs
budget, we provide most of the care through our healthcare
system. We estimate about $1.6 billion for healthcare for
homeless veterans. That's about $100 million more than the
previous year, and $287 million in homeless-specific programs,
which I believe was a $24 million increase from last year.
Mr. Cleaver. What portion of it would go specifically for
housing?
Mr. Dougherty. Well, we provide about $87 million to
transitional housing providers, the 300-plus grantees who are
operating transitional housing. So in that sense, that would be
probably the more specific number.
Mr. Cleaver. But we don't have--I mean, we can't say, for
example, that in the FY08 budget request, our goal is to
provide housing for the homeless at a level of ``X?''
Mr. Dougherty. I'm not sure what the ``X'' is in--
Mr. Cleaver. Well, that's what I'm asking for. Why?
Mr. Dougherty. We would expect that we would, with the
coming year's budget, be able to provide transitional housing
for 20,000 homeless veterans in the grant and per diem program
as well as probably 6,000 to 7,000 homeless veterans in
residential treatment programs operated specifically by the VA.
Mr. Cleaver. Now the appropriators approved 7,500 vouchers
last year. Did you support that, Mr. Johnston?
Mr. Dougherty. I don't know that the Administration has
taken a specific position on that appropriation. I have, in
previous testimony before Congress, have been authorized to
support additional vouchers for veterans underneath that
program.
Mr. Cleaver. Does that mean you're hoping that we can go
higher than 7,500?
Mr. Dougherty. I didn't say that, Mr.--
Mr. Cleaver. Well, you kind of said it.
Mr. Dougherty. What I said is that when I--
Mr. Cleaver. I understand.
Mr. Dougherty. Before the Appropriations Committee came
forward with their Act, I had spoken before authorizing
committees before and had supported, on behalf of the
Administration, additional vouchers specifically for homeless
veterans. I did not have any specific number per se that had
previously been approved.
I can tell you that we hold community meetings that
assessed what the need for that kind of housing is, and the
community tells us we need more than 20,000 of those units.
Mr. Cleaver. So is it a stretch to assume that you and Mr.
Johnston would support 20,000 vouchers? I'm not trying to start
anything. I'm just trying to represent my constituents.
Mr. Johnston. The $75 million for the 7,500 vouchers that
was inserted into the conference report is a funding level that
exceeds HUD's request. And--
Mr. Cleaver. I know it exceeds HUD's request, which has
been a problem we've had before, that HUD is not requesting
more. And I'm not going to ask you whether or not you agree
with the official request of HUD. Just like I'm not going to
ask you any more whether or not you think we need 20,000
vouchers. I think that would not be nice of me to try to put
you in a position--
Mr. Johnston. Thank you.
Mr. Cleaver. --of discomfort. And so I'm not going to ask
you that. I think I have an answer. But my final question is,
as you know, the subprime and secondary market crisis is just
wreaking havoc all across the country, which means that there
is no exemption to veterans.
Is there anything that you would suggest we do, or that Mr.
Green could perhaps add to his legislation, that would help us
to deal with the veterans who are going to wake up when their
reset goes sky high and find that they are homeless?
Mr. Dougherty. I'm not sure I can answer specifically about
the subprime mortgage problem except that I do--
Mr. Cleaver. Well, I mean, with regard to veterans.
Mr. Dougherty. I just received information yesterday at the
meeting that Mr. Johnston and I attended from one of our Deputy
Under Secretaries, and on the VA side, the VA home loan
guarantee side, I can tell you that the numbers are very, very
positive. The numbers of veterans who have potential
foreclosure is way under that subprime number and the number of
veterans who are in foreclosure is at historic lows.
The problem is that obviously many veterans may not have
used the VA home loan guarantee program and may still end up in
that way. So I guess the--
Mr. Cleaver. That's the whole point. That some of them have
dipped into the subprime market trying to get approval of their
mortgage. Is there anything that Mr. Green can add to his
legislation to address that issue?
Mr. Dougherty. I'm not aware of anything. I'm not
knowledgeable enough to answer that question
Mr. Cleaver. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman.
Chairwoman Waters. Thank you very much. Mr. Garrett.
Mr. Garrett. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, and thank you
gentlemen for being here today and also for the work your
Departments do. I think one of the most critically important
issues that any member works on is services for veterans, so I
appreciate what you do.
Just to recap, Mr. Johnston, an earlier question was, are
there any specific proposals that are coming down or out of the
Department without a yes or a no, I would hope that your
answer, if not specific to that point, is--and you need to tell
me if I'm wrong with the assumption. I should never assume.
That there is just a continual review, and Mr. Dougherty the
same thing, that there is just a continual review of the
situation on the ground with veterans, with veterans groups,
with the housing situation to analyze it today, tomorrow, next
week in perpetuity as far as whether we should be doing
something, whether you should be coming back to us with
additional requests or changes in the existing programs.
Mr. Johnston. That's accurate. I certainly agree with you.
And let me cite something that relates to the future. Just like
this good committee, the Senate counterpart as well as HUD have
proposed to greatly simplify HUD's various homeless programs.
In so doing, HUD has proposed not the same level of funding,
but frankly, a large increase. If you look at the funding level
that we had at HUD in 2001 versus 2008, it's an increase of 55
percent.
I think you'll agree there are very few programs in the
Federal Government where you have that kind of an increase at
this time. Just between 2007 and 2008, the request made, which
is the exact amount that's in the conference report, would
provide a lot of additional funds to better serve homeless
persons, including homeless veterans.
Mr. Garrett. I don't know if Mr. Dougherty wants to--
Mr. Dougherty. You're absolutely correct. We look at this
each and every year. We have continued to expand programs.
We've targeted grant proposals to make sure that some
historically underserved areas, tribal governments, and States
and localities that have not had homeless-specific programs,
are included.
We've had a very consistent and significant increase both
in the number of veterans that we're seeing and serving and we
think that's working very well as our immediate past Secretary
said, Secretary Nicholson, that when you're showing you're
succeeding in doing this, that's not the time to lift off the
accelerator. That's the time to go forward. And I think that's
the mode that we're in, to do more.
Mr. Garrett. Okay. And in one of those areas, specifically
where we may be going forward, and someone asked this question
in part on HUD-VASH--correct me if I'm wrong. That's the only
dedicated voucher program aligned in that area. Is there
anything that you're looking at as far as the--maybe you talk
with the various housing agencies, local housing agencies and
the like that can work with them to increase the actual
utilization by them of those voucher programs?
Mr. Dougherty. I think one of the things that we can tell
you, because we monitor every veteran who is in that permanent
housing with case management, the original HUD-VASH
Administration initiative that began many years ago, about half
of those vouchers that were originally started for that purpose
have gone away. The other half that has really come back to
almost max the original number were because local public
housing authorities came to the Department of Veterans Affairs
and said we have Section 8 vouchers. If you will provide
specific case management to veterans, we'll give a preference
for veterans to get into that housing.
Mr. Garrett. Why did those other ones go away?
Mr. Dougherty. Well--I'm not the expert.
Mr. Johnston. As the tenant leaves the unit, that Section 8
goes back to the PHA.
Mr. Garrett. Okay. I see. Another interesting thing I
learned, that's why I come here, I learned from your testimony
today, Mr. Wood, as well as far as the--well the various
positions, Mr. Shays addressed it in some part--the economic
status of the veterans in general. It's sort of
counterintuitive when you just come to these hearings, you
don't hear that side of the equation. You think it's just a
total negative, gloomy picture. And yet in fact if you can just
reiterate some of them on the economic side, on the job
employment side, and over homeownership rates, they're at the
level, or in certain cases, above the level. So, first of all,
correct me if I'm wrong on that. And secondly, if the problem
then is--is the problem then with just a specific targeted
group? And if so, and I guess part of your answer is already is
you've tried to define or identify causation of that targeted
group. You talked about post-traumatic stress. Economic, of
course, is one, but there has to be an underlying cause of
that. Another factor which you didn't raise, I just wonder is
there a correlation between those individuals--we have a
volunteer service at this point. Is there a correlation of the
status of those individuals post being in the service and pre
being in the service? In other words, we're encouraging people
maybe in certain economic status and their economic status
continues afterwards, or what variables do you consider may be
the cause? And that's my last question.
Chairwoman Waters. I'm sorry. We have a vote on, and I'm
going to try and get Ms. Moore in with her questions before we
have to leave and dismiss this panel. I would ask the gentleman
to respond in writing to Mr. Garrett's question.
Ms. Moore, would you like to try and get your questions in
now?
Ms. Moore. Thank you so much, Madam Chairwoman. I have so
many questions, so I'm going to have to sort of squeeze all of
them in a short period of time. The GOE data seemed to indicate
that we are serving homeless veterans disproportionately less
than we are other homeless populations. And I certainly do
understand that we don't have enough vouchers to serve all of
the homeless and we don't want to necessarily pit homeless
veterans against homeless families or other homeless
individuals. However, I am very curious about the planning
process at HUD where you invite communities to identify--to use
the challenge data and to identify homeless veterans and then
make it optional for those communities to provide veterans
preferences. So I am curious as to whether or not any of you
think, number one, that we might want to revisit the veterans
preference scenario for housing, given the numbers of troops
that will inevitably come back in greater numbers because of
the incursions in Afghanistan and Iraq and of the multiple
deployments.
Also, I know that there are 39 exclusions for income for
veterans. So we talk--we've heard over and over again from
members and from the panel that often veterans have a higher
income. And so there's sort of a disconnect between why there
are more homeless veterans if they have higher incomes. Have we
ever considered that some of the recurring income that veterans
receive, that portions of that ought to be excluded, too,
particularly if there have been post-traumatic stress disorder
diagnoses?
The gentleman from the Veterans Affairs, if there were more
assessments done. And thirdly, this flexibility that we give
these housing authorities where they want to get substance
abusers out of the house. You can't visit your mother who lives
in public housing if you've been convicted of anything.
Do you think that that particular predilection of local
housing authorities, public housing authorities, do not want
people with substance abuse histories in their housing, would
militate against those communities really serving the needs of
our veterans?
Sorry I had to squeeze it all in like that, but go for it.
I guess I want to start with Mr. Johnston.
Mr. Johnston. Okay. In terms of the preference, for years,
as you know, instead of having Federal preferences, which we
had many years ago, they are local preferences. And I think the
reason that Congress and HUD thought that was a good idea was
that there are so many different characteristics when you go
from city to city that it gives communities much more
flexibility to target the needs of their particular community.
We do recognize that veterans are a needy population, and
this summer, Assistant Secretary Cabrera, who administers the
Section 8 program, issued a letter to all of the executive
directors of the public housing agencies urging them to
consider establishing a local preference for veterans. So we'll
be getting some information later, once they've had some time
to think that through and consider implementing to see what
effect that will have.
Ms. Moore. If we saw, for example, like we see now, that
there is a disproportionate number of homeless veterans, is
that something we might want to do? Not offer that flexibility?
Mr. Johnston. I can certainly bring that question back.
Ms. Moore. Okay.
Mr. Johnston. I don't administer the Section 8 program.
Ms. Moore. All right. Go on. I would like to hear a little
bit about the exclusions--I mean, if you think we ought to look
at excluding, particularly when veterans are disabled, if their
recurring income are disability payments, certainly I think
others here on the panel have pointed out that you have higher
needs, that there are more expenses related to being disabled.
You can't just run out and mow your lawn if you're disabled.
You have to pay somebody.
Mr. Johnston. Right.
Ms. Moore. You can't just jump in your car and go
somewhere. You have to get a cab. And these expenses mount up.
Should we exclude more of their income for disabilities? And
then also I want somebody to address the housing flexibility
issue as it relates to substance abuse.
Mr. Johnston. Well, in terms of excluding the income, it's
certainly a very good question, and let me take that back to
Mr. Cabrera and--
Ms. Moore. Okay.
Mr. Johnston. --find out to what extent this is in the
statute, to what extent it's worked, and what exclusions there
are currently with income. That's a very good question.
Chairwoman Waters. Thank you very much. The Chair notes
that some members may have additional questions for this panel
which they may wish to submit in writing. Without objection,
the hearing record will remain open for 30 days for members to
submit written questions to these witnesses, and to place their
responses in the record.
Before dismissing this panel, I would like to ask that you
respond to Ms. Moore's questions that did not get addressed.
Unfortunately, we have about 4\1/2\ minutes left to get to the
Floor, and I'm going to dismiss this panel so that you won't
sit here and wait, and we will convene the next panel when we
return in about 30 minutes. So, thank you very much for coming
today. This panel is now dismissed.
[Recess]
Chairwoman Waters. I'm very pleased to welcome our
distinguished second panel. In particular, I would like to
personally welcome to the panel Dwight Radcliff, chief
executive officer of U.S. Vets, headquartered in my district,
with whom I have worked closely and productively. I am pleased
that today the other members of the subcommittee will benefit
from Dwight's comprehensive knowledge and insights in this
area, as I have for some time.
So, we won't wait for other members, we'll just get
started. The floor is quite busy. The committees are quite
busy, and we will now have our panel: Mr. George Basher, chair,
National Coalition for Homeless Veterans; Ms. Nan Roman,
president, National Alliance to End Homelessness, whom we
welcome back before the subcommittee; Ms. Karen M. Dale,
executive vice president of operations and strategic
development, Volunteers of America; Ms. Deborah DeSantis,
president and CEO, Corporation for Supportive Housing; and Mr.
Rick Weidman--I have a card here somewhere for Mr. Weidman. He
is director of government affairs for Vietnam Veterans of
America. And we had thought that Sharon Hodge would be
presenting today, so we're very pleased that Mr. Weidman is
able to be here.
We will get started with the testimony, and I will start--
oh, and also, Mr. Ron Chamrin, assistant director, National
Economic Commission, The American Legion, Washington, D.C.
Mr. Basher, will you start off the testimony for us,
please?
STATEMENT OF GEORGE BASHER, CHAIR, NATIONAL COALITION FOR
HOMELESS VETERANS
Mr. Basher. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. The National
Coalition for Homeless Veterans appreciates the opportunity to
testify before this committee. I'd to introduce myself. My name
is George Basher, and I am chairman of the board of directors
for the National Coalition for Homeless Vets. I also have the
honor to serve as the chairman of the Veterans Affairs Advisory
Committee for Homeless Vets, which you heard referred to
earlier by Mr. Dougherty. And for the past 12 years, I had the
pleasure to serve as the director of the New York State
Division of Veterans Affairs.
With respect to the National Coalition, NCHV was founded by
a group of community-based homeless veteran service providers
in 1990. It's a nonprofit organization. Our mission is ending
homelessness among veterans by shaping public policy, promoting
collaboration, and building the capacity of service providers.
NCHV is the only national organization totally dedicated to
helping end homelessness among America's veterans.
The founders were all former members of the military, and
they were concerned that neither the public nor policymakers
understood either the unique reasons for homelessness among
veterans or appreciated the reality that so many veterans were
overlooked and underserved during their period of personal
crisis. In the years since its founding, NCHV's membership has
grown to over 280 organizations in 48 States and the District
of Columbia and Guam. As a network, NCHV members provide the
full continuum of care to homeless veterans and their families,
including emergency shelter, food and clothing, recuperative
and hospice care, addiction and mental health services,
employment support, educational assistance, legal aid, and
transitional and permanent housing.
Now we heard testimony earlier from the previous panel
about the degree of homelessness, and by anybody's measure and
anybody's count, veterans today comprise roughly 20 to 25
percent of the total homeless population, recognizing that
veterans make up about 11 percent of the population in the
country, and today's military is populated by less than 1
percent of the population of this Nation.
So, clearly, veterans are overrepresented in the homeless
population. We've heard a variety of the possible reasons and
probable reasons discussed, whether it be issues of mental
health, whether it be issues of post-traumatic stress, or
issues of unemployment or unemployability, all of those factors
have combined to make this population particularly vulnerable
to homelessness. And with respect to those who are at risk for
homelessness, I would suggest to you that the percentages
probably don't look too much different.
So having said that, you asked us to comment on the various
programs that VA and HUD have to offer for veterans. And with
respect to the Department of Veterans Affairs, I think that
they do a tremendous job of clinical care for veterans. The VA
spends over a quarter-of-a-billion dollars directly to support
homeless programs, and their healthcare for homeless vets
program is clearly the best in the Nation and probably does as
much for about 100,000 vets who are homeless ever year as any
organization possibly can.
The problem with all of this is that the VA has a focus on
transitional housing, and so far to date, the only permanent
housing program that VA has any involvement in is the HUD-VASH
program, which we've heard, again, considerable testimony on.
The success of this program, I don't think, can be underrated
but the need to spread a program like this, I think, is
something that needs to be attended to, and I believe, Mr.
Green, you've done a very good job of attempting to make that
happen.
Other VA programs, whether it's the domiciliary program or
their compensated work therapy program or any of the other
healthcare outpatient programs that the VA directly provides
services for, are more than supplanted by the programs that the
community-based providers represented by NCHV bring to the
table. These are typically small reparations during
transitional housing, averaging 20 to 40 beds. These are not
large operations, but, again, their focus is primarily
transitional.
When you get to the HUD side, as Mr. Johnston pointed out,
we have the Shelter Plus Care program, which is HUD's most
successful homeless program. While not specifically targeted
for vets, it was designed to be modeled after the HUD-VASH
program.
One of the difficulties that we've had, and I can speak to
this particularly in my role as State director in trying to
connect people who are veterans with the various services that
are available to them, is always trying to be able to make sure
that those veterans who are in HUD programs are identified,
screened for eligibility for potential compensation or pension
benefits, and then had the wherewithal to find assistance to
pursue those benefits. That has always been a difficulty for
those of us involved in this effort, that linkage between VA
services and whatever services HUD provided.
The provision in both of those bills that we have a special
assistant to link HUD and VA services, I think, is absolutely
critical. There needs to be an understanding. Veterans access
services just the same as every other citizen in this country,
but the unique circumstances that made these veterans
vulnerable can best be treated clinically by the VA, but some
of those needs are better met by HUD when it comes to housing.
So there has to be a way to make that crosswalk between the
agencies and make sure that we don't have gaps and that we
don't leave people out in the cold and unhoused.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Basher can be found on page
50 of the appendix.]
Chairwoman Waters. Thank you very much.
Ms. Nan Roman, president, National Alliance to End
Homelessness.
STATEMENT OF NAN ROMAN, PRESIDENT, NATIONAL ALLIANCE TO END
HOMELESSNESS
Ms. Roman. Thank you so much, Chairwoman Waters, for your
leadership on the housing needs of the most vulnerable people.
The Homelessness Research Institute of the National Alliance to
End Homelessness has just issued a report using 2005 and 2006
VA, Census Bureau, and American Community Survey data to assess
the housing situation of veterans. That report has been
referenced here today.
I can tell you that the report says that there are far too
many homeless veterans. On any given night, one in four
homeless people is a veteran. And in 2006, this meant that
there were nearly 200,000 veterans homeless on a given night.
Veterans also make up a disproportionate share of homeless
people. They represent 26 percent of homeless people, but only
11 percent of the adult civilian population. In addition, in
2005, we estimated that at least 44,000 veterans were
chronically homeless.
Are there so many homeless veterans because veterans have
more housing problems? We've learned that, no, generally
speaking, veterans are doing very well with respect to housing.
Only about half as many veteran renters have housing costs
burdens as the general population, 4 percent versus 8 percent
in the general population, and 80 percent of veterans are
homeowners versus 69 percent of the general population.
We did, however, find that there is a group of veterans who
rent housing and who have severe housing cost burdens. In 2005,
that was 468,000 veterans who were severely rent burdened. Of
those veterans, 87 percent were extremely low income. The
following characteristics were also overrepresented in this
group: disability, female sex, living alone, and older. This
goes to the question of why it is that some veterans do better
than other veterans with respect to housing.
So what does this mean? It means that most veterans are
well housed. That's the good news. But around half-a-million
are not, and this group tends to be poor, disabled, female,
alone, and older. Further, 200,000 per night are homeless.
Given the veterans' housing data and what we know more
generally about homelessness, we can deduce that veterans with
disabilities are very vulnerable to homelessness. Veterans,
then, may be homeless not only because they lack affordable
housing, but because the services to support them in housing
are lacking. What can be done about that?
Currently, the only housing assistance that's available to
all veterans is for homeownership for higher-income people.
There are some targeted VA homeless programs, but those fall
far short of need. There are also general HHS and HUD homeless
programs, again that don't meet the need. So, basically, unless
a veteran has the money to be a homeowner or is homeless,
there's nothing for them but to get in line with everybody else
on the waiting list for public housing and Section 8. And we
should be able to do better than that for veterans.
We have several recommendations. One is to do a better job
of helping people with housing before they leave the military.
This is not so much to identify people who are going to be
homeless as to catch people who are likely to have housing
problems. Many people enter the military poor. They exit poor.
And the people who are exiting poor, we could help with housing
assistance.
We could make sure that the VA has the resources to provide
rapid re-housing and transitional housing to scale, so if they
see housing problems, they have some ability to address that.
Currently, they have very few resources or the ability to
address housing problems.
We can provide enough permanent supportive housing to
address the needs of disabled veterans. A fast way to do that
is through the HUD-VASH program. Other people are going to
testify about the permanent supportive housing. We also support
the Homes for Heroes Act and the Veterans Homelessness
Prevention Act, assuming that there is money separately
appropriated to support the housing vouchers in there, because
we wouldn't want veterans to compete with other people for the
same pool of vouchers.
These measures will do the job, but they are a piecemeal
approach. A more straightforward approach would be to give low-
income veterans a housing benefit, similar to Section 8, that
they could use for renting or owning a home. Alternatively,
such a benefit could be targeted to low-income, disabled
veterans. I think that just providing a housing benefit to
eligible veterans would be a less tortured way of getting to
the same place.
We've learned a lot about homeless veterans. We know that
they do not become homeless immediately after discharge, but
that difficulties may take years to emerge, although there's
some evidence that period is shortening, and that the veterans
from the current conflict are showing up earlier in the system.
We know that post-traumatic stress disorder, traumatic brain
injuries, and other factors of war make them vulnerable to
increased poverty and to housing problems. And of course
current veterans, we also know, have more of those problems. We
know that housing and supportive housing are a solution to
these problems.
We have an opportunity before us, I think, to be bold about
the solution to this. There's a lot of public will to help
these returning veterans. We can prevent veterans from becoming
homeless. We can house those veterans who are already homeless,
and we can ensure that all veterans, including those with low
incomes, have stable, decent, and affordable housing.
Thank you so much.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Roman can be found on page
88 of the appendix.]
Chairwoman Waters. Thank you very much, Ms. Roman.
Ms. Karen M. Dale, executive vice president of operations
and strategic development, Volunteers of America.
STATEMENT OF KAREN M. DALE, EXECUTIVE VICE PRESIDENT OF
OPERATIONS AND STRATEGIC DEVELOPMENT, VOLUNTEERS OF AMERICA
Ms. Dale. Good afternoon, Chairwoman Waters, and thank you
for this opportunity to testify. Volunteers of America is a
national nonprofit, faith-based organization dedicated to
helping those in need rebuild their lives and reach their full
potential. It is our firm belief that veterans deserve the
highest investment of our resources to have them achieve their
full potential.
For 111 years, Volunteers of America has responded to
community needs with compassion and consistency. In times of
disaster, and in times of war, Volunteers of America has been
there. When the United States entered both World War I and
World War II, Volunteers of America focused its efforts on
holding the homes, caring for children and housing for women,
expanded and adapted services to support servicemen, as well as
mothers engaged in defense work. So we have a long history of
being very committed to our veterans.
Fast forward to today. Volunteers of America worked in
partnership with the Corporation for Supportive Housing, the
National Coalition for Homeless Veterans, and convened a cross-
section of stakeholders to ensure that the dialogue remained
alive and that we focused on how to deal with this emerging
issue.
The leadership dialogue resulted in the release of our
joint report entitled, ``Ending Homelessness Among Veterans
Through Permanent Supportive Housing.'' Volunteers of America
also initiated a radio tour that reached out to millions to
increase this dialogue and make the general public more aware.
We also sounded an early alarm that the network of homeless
services today is not prepared for the emergence of female
veterans who by 2010 will account for 10 percent of all
veterans.
It's important that we understand the context for this
dialogue when we talk about the types of services that are
needed. It needs to be accessible. It needs to be a flexible
array of comprehensive services, including mental health,
substance abuse management and recovery, vocational and
employment training, money management, case management, and
life skills. All of these things in combination are what's
needed, built on the cornerstone of housing, permanent housing,
not moving from shelters to transitional housing, but rather
ensuring that someone has a safe place to call home.
We have substantial experience and a commitment to an array
of services that we know work as solutions in meeting the needs
of veterans. We have 32 grant and per diem programs with eight
more in development. We have 13 homeless veterans reintegration
programs, two HUD permanent supportive housing programs,
service centers, a unique health mobile service center,
transitional housing, grants for chronically mentally ill and
frail elderly, and a program for incarcerated veterans.
And I mention this full array of services to say that each
veteran's needs are unique, and we can't just talk about one
type of program. We need to ensure that we provide them
permanent housing and then a full array of services based on
their unique needs.
We have a few recommendations that are based on our
experience serving this population. First, we believe that the
grant and per diem program needs to be fully funded, and that
the funding should always be evaluated to match the scale of
the need that we're expecting with the population to be served.
Additionally, the per diem payment program should be
revised to reflect current costs of providing needed housing
and services, and looking at that in the context of both urban
and rural issues, because we know that there are differences in
trying to serve the veterans in both places.
There are complex barriers that we experience in serving
the veterans, and we believe it's important that all agencies
work with the nonprofit providers who are delivering these
services to ensure that there's flexible funding and ways that
we work together to provide solutions.
This year for the first time, Congress included funding for
additional HUD-VASH vouchers in the amount of $75 million. And
we want to reiterate our support for the recommendation that
20,000 Section 8 vouchers for the HUD-VASH program be issued on
an annual basis, making the program permanent. Again, we know
that this is a solution that works. It simply needs to be taken
to scale.
Quickly, I want to illustrate for you a story that talks
about how, in the voice of a veteran, our services have helped
them. Walt, a veteran of the U.S. Army, had been living on the
streets and homeless. He was unemployed, alcohol-dependent,
without financial support, and suffering from PTSD. Walt says
after living on the street, he was quite wary of what was going
to happen at the Volunteers of America of Florida program.
There, under a safe roof, he was provided with referrals and
linkages, as staff encouraged him to take care of his medical
and mental health treatment as he desperately needed to do. To
this day, Walt remains alcohol-free, has graduated the 2-year
program, and has his own apartment. Walt says the Volunteers of
America of Florida program ``quite simply saved my life.''
[The prepared statement of Ms. Dale can be found on page 68
of the appendix.]
Chairwoman Waters. Thank you very much.
Now we will hear from Mr. Radcliff.
STATEMENT OF DWIGHT RADCLIFF, CHIEF EXECUTIVE OFFICER, UNITED
STATES VETERANS INITIATIVE
Mr. Radcliff. Madam Chairwoman, and members of the
subcommittee, thank you for allowing me to testify on a subject
that I am very passionate about, and have dedicated my life to
eradicating, and that is homelessness among America's veterans.
The United States Veterans Initiative, also known as U.S.
Vets, is a private nonprofit corporation established in 1992 to
address the unmet needs of homeless veterans. Since its
inaugural facility opened in 1993 in Inglewood, U.S. Vets has
become a recognized leader in the field of service delivery to
homeless veterans, the largest operator of homeless veteran
programs in the country.
The United States Veterans Initiative collaborates with
various for-profit agencies, including Cantwell-Anderson and
Century Housing for many of its projects developments. Last
night, more than 2,100 formerly homeless veterans slept in our
12 facilities across the Nation. They're receiving a variety of
services according to their needs, whether it be educational,
counseling for benefits, mental health issues, addictions
treatment, employment assistance, or rental assistance for
those veterans who are disabled.
We're helping them to regain the skills that will make them
self-sufficient and will give them the sense of pride that goes
along with a productive life. Since 1993, we expanded our
operations to include: U.S. Vets Los Angeles, a 485-bed
facility for homeless veterans; U.S. Vets Long Beach Villages
at Cabrio, a 26-acre base closure project, the largest
transitional housing facility for homeless veterans in the
country; U.S. Vets Las Vegas, a 260-bed facility; U.S. Vets
Texas, which operates 100-bed permanent housing facility and
employment center at the DeGeorge Hotel, and a 300-bed housing
complex component at Midtown Days Inn in Houston; U.S. Vets
Arizona, which has an 80-bed facility in Phoenix, and a 58-bed
facility in Prescott; U.S. Vets Hawaii, a 210-bed facility in
Honolulu; U.S. Vets Washington, D.C., a 51-bed facility here at
the Old Soldier's Home, at the Armed Forces Retirement Home;
and U.S. Vets Riverside, Compton. As a result of our successful
strategies to educate, counsel, and empower homeless veterans,
the State of Hawaii recruited U.S. Vets to provide services to
a family program, 300-bed family program, a brand new family
shelter in Hawaii.
I do want to comment that 65 percent of the veterans we
have served have made successful transitions, and we've served
more than 17,000 veterans since 1993. Eleven hundred veterans
get employment every year in our facilities, and we continue to
maintain an 80 percent placement rate in employment.
I want to talk about the need and the scale of need. The
Homeless Research Institute released a report citing that
numerous findings, the findings highlighted the need to provide
veterans with proper housing and supportive services in order
to prevent homelessness from occurring in the first place.
I commend Nan and the group that sits here today for their
services. The report also calculates to reduce chronic
homelessness among veterans by half, permanent supportive
housing needs to be increased by 25,000 units, and the number
of housing vouchers targeted to veterans needs to be expanded
to 20,000 units. Fannie Mae also released a Gallup Poll that
found 24 percent of veterans have indicated that they have been
concerned that they may not have a place to live.
The recent congressional hearing on foreclosure prevention
and intervention held by this House subcommittee cited that
148,147 foreclosure filings in California, the proliferation of
subprime interest-only adjustable rates, and other mortgage
products have locked low-income individuals, including
veterans, into unsustainable loans. Veterans represent a
substantial number of the current foreclosure crisis.
And according to the National Low Income Housing Coalition,
nationwide there are 6.2 million homes renting at prices
affordable to the 9 million extremely low-income individuals,
families and veterans. This indicates a shortage of 2.8 million
units of housing throughout the country. Additionally, no
congressional district has enough housing available to the
extremely low income.
I want to go on and just talk about the cost of doing
nothing, because homeless individuals who have no regular place
to stay use a variety of public systems in a very inefficient
and costly way. Preventing a homeless episode or ensuring a
speedy transition into stable permanent housing can result in
significant cost savings.
People who are homeless are more likely to access
healthcare services, and according to a report in the New
England Journal of Medicine, homeless people spend more than
the average of 4 days longer per hospital visit than comparable
non-homeless individuals. The cost is approximately $2,400 per
hospitalization.
Homelessness both causes and results from serious health
issues, including addictive disorders and treating homeless
people for drug--
Chairwoman Waters. Sorry.
Mr. Radcliff. That's okay.
Chairwoman Waters. You are way over your 5 minutes.
Mr. Radcliff. Thank you.
Chairwoman Waters. I would like to move on to Ms. DeSantis.
STATEMENT OF DEBORAH DeSANTIS, PRESIDENT AND CHIEF EXECUTIVE
OFFICER, CORPORATION FOR SUPPORTIVE HOUSING
Ms. DeSantis. Thank you, Madam Chairwoman, and members of
the subcommittee. My name is Deborah DeSantis, and I am
president and CEO of the Corporation for Supportive Housing.
Thank you. We are grateful the committee is focusing on the
housing needs of veterans and want to first thank
Representative Green for introducing the Homes for Heroes Act
and the Veterans Homelessness Prevention Act, which we support.
Today I want to share with you what we know about homeless
veterans and how permanent supportive housing addresses their
needs. CSH has unique experience as a national organization
that for the last 17 years has helped communities build
permanent supportive housing to prevent and end homelessness,
with particular success in serving people struggling with
multiple challenges. Many homeless veterans who so often
wrestle with substance use, mental health, and co-occurring
disorders clearly fall into this group.
Many of the observations and recommendations in my
testimony today are informed by the lessons learned during a
leadership dialogue which CSH convened to discuss the Federal
policy landscape for homeless veterans.
First, our observations. Without a permanent place to live
and support system to help them address their underlying
problems, most homeless veterans bounce from one emergency care
system to the next, from streets to shelters to public and VA
hospitals, to psychiatric institutions and detox centers and
back to the streets endlessly.
Unfortunately, too many veterans exiting VA transitional
programs experience this cycling because of the lack of
permanent housing. While this is a national tragedy, our
organization believes chronic homelessness can be prevented and
ended through the creation of supportive housing. Supportive
housing, as we know, has proven an effective and cost-efficient
innovation that integrates permanent housing with high quality
support services. Studies of supportive housing indicate that
80 percent of individuals who enter stay housed. Use of detox,
emergency rooms, and hospital rooms lessen, and we see an
increase in earned income by 50 percent and employment by 40
percent.
Some important considerations for designing services
strategies within permanent supportive housing projects for
homeless veterans include the following:
It's important to understand the impact of veterans'
military service and designing service programming that
respects values and is responsive to the impact of those life
experiences, including a strong emphasis on peer-to-peer
support models.
Understanding the prevalence of specific mental illnesses,
such as post-traumatic stress disorder and rates of anti-social
personality disorder, which has been found to 5 to 6 times
higher among veterans than non-veterans.
Facilitating access to veteran-specific public benefits.
Many veterans, especially those who did not serve during
wartime, are not aware of, or have not accessed, VA pension or
healthcare benefits. In addition, the wars in Iraq and
Afghanistan highly utilize our National Guard soldiers, who may
not be as geographically concentrated near existing veteran
services facilities as active duty components.
Our recommendations. Given what we know about the needs of
homeless veterans and the success of permanent supportive
housing, CHS offers the following recommendations:
First, support the creation of additional permanent
supportive housing. While I know it's not the focus of today's
hearing, I would be remiss not to mention the McKinney-Vento
Homelessness Assistance program and our support of the 30
percent set-aside as we see a benefit to homeless veterans.
Second, to support the funding for additional HUD-VASH
vouchers, which has been referred to today. We see that as one
of the most effective tools for addressing this population.
And third, to provide funding on a grant, not per diem,
basis. It was the consensus of the participants in our
leadership dialogue that it's not optimal to fund the services
in permanent supportive housing on a per diem basis. The
recommendation is based on the difficulties veteran service
providers face in underwriting day-to-day operating costs. We
believe that by providing funding on a grant basis, veterans
housing and service providers would have greater security in
providing quality care.
I thank you, Madam Chairwoman, for this opportunity to
testify today.
[The prepared statement of Ms. DeSantis can be found on
page 76 of the appendix.]
Chairwoman Waters. Thank you very much.
Mr. Rick Weidman, director of government affairs, Vietnam
Veterans of America.
STATEMENT OF RICK WEIDMAN, DIRECTOR OF GOVERNMENT AFFAIRS,
VIETNAM VETERANS OF AMERICA
Mr. Weidman. Madam Chairwoman, thank you very much for the
opportunity for VVA to add its voice to the support for Mr.
Green's legislation. I particularly want to commend Section 6,
which would exempt pension and death and indemnity compensation
for figuring income for going into public housing. It is
something that has been needed for many years, and this would
be an extraordinary step.
Is there a need for more permanent low-income housing? The
answer is yes. It has a tremendous impact on the ability to
help veterans recover and make it back from the street. Let me
just say that Vietnam Veterans of America, two things. One is
that our founding principle is never again shall one generation
of American veterans abandon another generation. And while we
are focused on the needs of the young men and women coming
home, we are also not going to abandon our own generation or
those older than us who continue to have problems that have led
them to the state of homelessness.
There is no such thing as a homeless vet. There are only
veterans whose problems have reached such a crisis proportion
that they have ended up on the street. And basically, each and
every one of them is a failure of the VA, and I might add, the
Veterans Employment and Training Service, and of the Department
of Labor. Employment is a key in a lot of this, and the
supportive services that will enable people not only to get but
to keep jobs.
Workforce Investment Act predecessor, JTPA, in 1990,
program year 1995, we looked up how many homeless veterans they
served, and it was 260 nationwide out of all of the billions of
dollars. In program year 2005, they've increased that to 400
veterans nationwide. And then we wonder why we can't help
veterans get jobs. The reason is that the monies that have been
allocated by the Congress to the Department of Labor don't get
where they're supposed to go. We still are waiting for regs for
the Jobs for Veterans Act which was enacted in 2002 that would
accord veterans priority of service at all federally funded
employment and training programs. That is the one piece that is
missing from the continuum of services that you've heard so
much about today.
Let me also mention that 20,000 is probably, for VASH-HUD
certificates, are probably--is a low number. But we need to get
to where it is in order for us not to be spending services--
precious resources on services for folks who have no permanent
place to live. So that everything that is happening during the
day comes unraveled at the shelter that night that does not
have a clean, sober, dry and supportive services atmosphere to
it.
And part of that mix out, once again, the key is
employment. Because it is the flashpoint of the readjustment
process which Vietnam Veterans of America has held for 29
years, is the ability to obtain and sustain meaningful
employment at a decent living wage. In order to do that, you
need a permanent domicile and way for employers when you leave
a resume to get back to you. So the permanent domicile is in
fact the crux of it.
I would just remind the committee for the record that many
of the housing programs that are on the books today started
post-World War II. And initially, they were designed primarily
for veterans. That is true not only at the Federal level, but
in many of the State-funded programs, as well. And over the
years, veterans have been pushed from the center to the edge,
and in many cases the epicenter, if you will, where it's even
harder for veterans to get in because they believe that the VA
does all things for all veterans, and that is simply not the
case.
So the role of this committee in terms of breaking the
chain of failure is absolutely essential. Once again, I want to
commend the committee for addressing this. Chairwoman Waters,
there are some people who are players who walk onto the field
and by their very presence change the nature of the game. You
did that 15 years ago in the House Veterans Affairs Committee,
and you are doing it on this committee, and Vietnam Veterans of
America salute you and commend you for your ongoing superior
performance. It is prime time performance.
Chairwoman Waters. Thank you so very much.
Mr. Ron Chamrin.
RONALD F. CHAMRIN, ASSISTANT DIRECTOR, NATIONAL ECONOMIC
COMMISSION, THE AMERICAN LEGION
Mr. Chamrin. Madam Chairwoman, and members of the
subcommittee, I want to thank you for the opportunity to
present the American Legion's view on the housing needs of low-
income veterans. The American Legion commends the subcommittee
for addressing this important issue.
My name is Ron Chamrin, and I am OIF veteran. Not unlike
many of my other brethren, I was in my mid-twenties during my
year-long combat deployment. When I came back from war, I lived
in housing that severely rent-burdened me financially. And due
to the GI Bill not paying anywhere close to the cost of
college, I found myself in $50,000 debt to student loans.
Since 2001, approximately 300,000 service members are
entering the private sector each year. This large influx of
veterans, some of whom have high-risk factors of becoming
homeless, is unnerving. There are numerous estimates that there
are nearly 200,000 veterans who are currently homeless at any
point in time. The American Legion believes that one homeless
veteran is one too many.
The mistake of incorrectly failing to recognize the
increase in homelessness amongst Vietnam veterans in the late
1970's and early 1980's cannot be made again. According to the
Urban Institute report in relation to the 1980 spike in
homelessness, some observers felt that the problem was a
temporary consequence of the recession of 1981 and 1982 and
would go away when the economy recovered. But here we are, 30
years later, debating whether assistance and prevention of
homeless veterans is a part of the cost of war. I hope that our
country does not make the same mistakes as we did to our
Vietnam veterans.
Combat veterans of OEF-OIF and the global war on terrorism
are at high risk of becoming homeless, and some who are in need
of assistance are already beginning to trickle into our
Nation's community-based veteran service providers. In order to
prevent a national epidemic of homeless veterans in the
upcoming years, measures must be taken to assist those veterans
who are currently homeless. Steps must also be taken to prevent
future homelessness of veterans and their families.
The American Legion supports additional and mandatory
funding of the HUD-VASH program. A decade ago, there were
approximately 2,000 vouchers earmarked for veterans in need of
permanent housing. Today, less than half that amount is
available for distribution. At a time when the number of
homeless veterans on any given night is approximately 200,000,
the need for safe, affordable, and permanent housing is
imperative.
The HUD appropriations bill would provide $75 million for
new vouchers for the HUD-VASH program. Funding, if enacted,
should be sufficient to provide assistance for thousands of
vouchers, affecting approximately upwards of 15,000 homeless
veterans. The American Legion supports Congress's efforts to
assist homeless veterans, and passage of these appropriations
will greatly assist veterans. We would be greatly disappointed
if these appropriations are not enacted into law.
I'll speak briefly on one piece of legislation discussed
today, H.R. 4161, the Veterans Homelessness Prevention Act. The
American Legion supports this bill. H.R. 4161 would authorize
the Secretary of HUD, in coordination with the Secretary of the
VA, to carry out a pilot program to prevent at-risk veterans
and veteran families from falling into homelessness. In
addition, the American Legion supports initiatives that will
give preference to America's veterans and their families in
obtaining housing through the programs of HUD.
I'd like to discuss the National Alliance to End
Homelessness report. The American Legion concurs with the three
major recommendations put forth in the report: Establish a
risk-assessment process during the first 30 days of discharge
and pilot a homelessness prevention program. Create permanent
supportive housing options for veterans, and expand rental
assistance for veterans.
The report states that currently over 930,000 veterans pay
more than 50 percent of their income toward housing, be it
renting or owning a home. The 2006 American Community Survey
conducted by the U.S. Census Bureau reports that the median
monthly housing cost for all mortgage owners was $1,402. This
is important, because the American Legion is very concerned
with the ever-growing gap of housing expenses versus veterans'
income. The 2006 survey further states that the median gross
income for veterans in the past 12 months is $34,000. Some
quick math shows a gross income of veterans of only $2,800 a
month. If a veteran were to safely only use 36 percent of an
average monthly income, this would only allow them to pay
$1,000 a month. However, this is $400 less than national median
monthly mortgage costs for all Americans. Put simply, the
average veteran cannot afford new housing within safe financial
practices in today's housing market.
In conclusion, we are at a critical period in our Nation
and the treatment of veterans. Funding the HUD-VASH program
will greatly assist veterans. With 300,000 servicemembers
entering the private sector each year, the availability of
transitional housing must be increased. Veterans of all eras
must be supported. Affordable housing, transition assistance,
education, and employment are each a pillar of financial
stability. They will prevent homelessness, afford veterans the
ability to compete in the private sector, and allow this
Nation's veterans to contribute their military skills and
education to the civilian sector.
The American Legion looks forward to continue working with
the subcommittee to assist our Nation's homeless veterans and
to prevent future homelessness. Madam Chairwoman, and members
of the subcommittee, thank you for this opportunity.
This concludes my testimony. I'd be happy to answer any
question that you may have and provide comments on statements
made earlier.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Chamrin can be found on page
57 of the appendix.]
Chairwoman Waters. Thank you very much. I'd like to thank
this panel for the very, very informative testimony that you
have shared with us today. We will now move to raising a few
questions that can perhaps further instruct us as we give
support to this important legislation that's being presented by
our colleague, Mr. Green.
Let me just say, Mr. Weidman, your comments took me back to
Sonny Montgomery when I served on the Veterans Affairs
Committee. I don't think Mr. Montgomery ever got ready for me,
but I think he learned a lot. He learned a lot during those
days.
Having said that, I don't know if I'm absolutely correct,
but it seems that the Vietnam-era veterans were the veterans
who have paid a terrific price and a lot of sacrifices and
helped to teach the public policymakers about what had to be
done for our returning veterans. It seems to me that
homelessness, healthcare issues, all of these issues were
brought to us in a real way by the Vietnam-era veterans, and
you have been in the leadership of getting public policymakers
focused on what we could do.
Having said that, as we look at homelessness now, I don't
have all of the data, and I heard some of the information given
to us. I don't know what percentage of Vietnam-era veterans is
still out there, and whether or not they are disproportionate
to the overall numbers of veterans that are out there.
If it is true, as I seem to think it may be, that we have
Vietnam-era veterans who have been on the street for all of
these years, does that not make a case for us really looking at
what we could do about permanent housing? And if so, let me
start by asking Ms. Roman, I think you mentioned, what kind of
models should we be looking at for permanent housing for the
homeless veterans?
Ms. Roman. Well, for homeless veterans with disabilities,
clearly permanent supportive housing is the proven solution,
and we should be going to scale there. There obviously are
veterans who don't have such serious disabilities. One of the
things that I thought was interesting in our veterans report
was that with respect to renters with housing cost burdens, the
people who had the highest rate of risk were actually older
veterans. The Korean War and World War II veterans had a higher
rate of rental cost burden than younger veterans, which was a
little counterintuitive for us. We would have thought that the
older veterans would have more protection. But the Vietnam
veterans were by far the biggest group of people with rental
costs burdens, and they probably are the largest homelessness
group as well.
I think a lot of people just need some housing subsidy.
It's an affordability issue. So of the 500,000 who are rent-
burdened, there's probably a significant number who just need
rent assistance, and then people who are disabled probably need
supportive housing with services attached to it. Not to say
that people who need subsidy don't also need services, but it
doesn't necessarily need to be linked to the housing.
Chairwoman Waters. Ms. DeSantis, would you continue that
discussion about the models of permanent supportive housing and
what seems to work best for veterans? I'm focused a little bit
on the recent information that we have gotten about the Iraqi
veterans. We just learned that there are 20,000 more brain-
injured Iraqi veterans than we had been told about. So if we
are looking at supportive housing, and we're looking at
disabilities and understanding them better, could you talk a
little bit about the kind of models we too should be looking
at?
Ms. DeSantis. Yes. First let me say I agree with Nan that
we certainly do need more affordable housing. The one thing to
remember about permanent supportive housing is that it's not
one type fits all. And so as you say, Chairwoman Waters, it's
important to note the special needs of the individuals that
we're looking to house.
So some of the supportive housing that we might look to
develop for this population, I think it's important to remember
that it's not always the most effective to create housing
that's--created it in a way that it's 100 percent serving only
veterans, because certainly there is a percentage of this
population that can and should be integrated into the larger
community.
I would also add to that, that while there are VA services
to be accessed, what we do see is that many of the veterans
don't know what those services are, where those services are
available to them, how to access them, and they're remote from
their geographic location. So I think it's important that when
we consider developing permanent supportive housing for this
population, we also think about how those services should be
identified in the communities that these individuals are going
to be living.
I also want to note that we would ask consideration to have
the clean and sober rule for VA surplus properties removed.
Certainly a percentage of this population is experiencing
substance use issues and alcohol abuse. Having that rule
applied to the VA surplus properties makes it very difficult to
utilize treatments that address their substance issues in a way
that's going to, I think, solve some of their issues. And also
knowing that the VA surplus properties are the most readily
available properties to turn into supportive housing, I think
that's also an important consideration.
Chairwoman Waters. Thank you very much. And lastly, Mr.
Radcliff, I'd like to know how the two Iraqi veterans who
received some attention in our area, young men who came back
from Iraq, they were homeless, you took them in over at U.S.
Vet. I'd like to know how they are doing. And I'd like you,
because you've been involved with transitional housing for the
most part, how would you transition into more permanent
supportive housing given you've been focused on helping to
transition people and get them back into the workforce. You
have supportive services, but the housing part of it is not
permanent.
Mr. Radcliff. That's correct. Well, although we happen to
have rental housing onsite that allows for veterans to stay for
an unlimited time and access some of the groups and services
and meals that are there, we do not have a ``permanent
housing''--under HUD's definition--model.
We've seen struggles. The two veterans, Jason and Ryan, who
were recently seen on CNN, are recently separated veterans who
are homeless and showed up at our facilities. They are doing
well. They are adjusting. They are attending PTSD groups. One
of the things that's difficult for them to do is to have time
to decompress. I think coming back from fighting a war and then
going right into the workforce is a key issue for them. So
there's no--we've kind of given them the opportunity in our
transitional housing to really decompress and focus on career
and education goals.
I want to thank the Congressman for authoring the Homeless
for Hero Act. We agree with Nan's premonition that we should
get housing vouchers to the veterans. Because oftentimes, even
if we're successful in getting these veterans employment, then
they're not eligible. And we have veterans who make $11 an
hour, newly employed, coming back from Iraq, who are not
eligible under HUD, and tax credit housing. They make too much
money, so they are income ineligible. That is probably the most
fragile population that the community has made an investment in
that would benefit from some additional services while in
permanent housing.
Chairwoman Waters. Thank you very much. Yes, Mr. Weidman?
Mr. Weidman. If I may add to that, prior to the late
1980's--actually, it was in the 1990's--there was no VA, VASH-
HUD certificate. And there was a feeling on the part of some,
that's not our job. I'm talking about of the Veterans Affairs
Committee and at the VA.
Today, one thing that has changed since Vietnam, is when we
came home from Vietnam, and you were in the VA hospital
recuperating from physical wounds, you were in the VA hospital.
But that is no longer true today. The overwhelming majority of
the services are delivered outpatient. So what's happening is
the young people who move from Walter Reed or Bethesda or one
of the other 35 military hospitals around the country, are
discharged from the military and they're told to go and seek
services when they go back to the VA, they have no way to get
back and forth.
And everything is predicated on a nuclear, intact family
with a spouse who does not have to work and so can ferry that
injured veteran back and forth to multiple appointments for
ongoing, long-term chronic care treatment. That just simply
doesn't hold. And while we have brought this to the attention
of the previous Secretary, who is now gone, and we had brought
this to the attention repeatedly of the Under Secretary for
Health, nobody is moving to address a new paradigm. And just as
the forward-thinking folks like yourself, Madam Chairwoman, in
a different committee led to creation of the VA-HUD
certificates where VA got into the housing business because it
was needed in order to have transitional housing to be able to
treat people.
So, moving into the permanent housing business helps get
construction of permanent housing that is nearby, or in some
cases on excess land of VA hospitals around the country, is
something that we would urge you to consider in the future.
Because there are going to be people who are going to need
years of treatment, and they're not going to be able to stay at
Palo Alto. They're going to go, as an example, back to Los
Angeles. But how are they going to get back and forth, given
the fact that many of them can't drive, to medical treatments
at the various VA hospitals in the Los Angeles basin?
And we would suggest that it's time for a paradigm and
would encourage you to work with Chairman Filner and others on
that committee to develop that new paradigm about how are you
going to provide for that ongoing treatment for these severely
wounded veterans who are discharged from the military and sent
back to the VA.
Chairwoman Waters. Well, thank you very, very much. My
members have been very patient with the time that I've taken,
and with that, I'm going to go back to Mr. Green, the author of
the legislation before us today, for his questions.
Mr. Green. Thank you very much, Madam Chairwoman. And Mr.
Weidman, am I pronouncing it correctly?
Mr. Weidman. ``Weidman,'' sir.
Mr. Green. ``Weidman.'' Mr. Weidman, I wanted to say to you
that you are eminently correct when you indicate that the Chair
is an impact player. She really is. And not only is she an
impact player, she walks softly but she carries a huge,
persuasive cudgel. That's a country boy's way of saying club.
[Laughter]
Mr. Green. And she ain't afraid to use it. And I say
``ain't'' for emphasis, for the kids who may be watching. But,
really, it is a blessing to have this wonderful lady as the
chair of this committee, because she has the courage to take on
some of these issues. And believe me, it takes some courage,
notwithstanding what people are saying, we still have great
work to do to get this done.
And I have to say to myself, someone is going to say
something is wrong with us if we can spend $14 million an hour
on the war, $14 million an hour, and won't spend $12.5 million
a year for a pilot program, somebody has to say, something's
wrong with you. It really is time for us to take action,
immediate action to do something about this problem.
Your testimony, friends, has convinced me that this problem
merits our immediate attention. I am so grateful that you took
the time to come and share with us.
Sir, you indicated to us that 20,000 vouchers is a low
number. Does everyone agree? If you agree that 20,000 is a low
number, raise your hand, please.
[Show of hands]
Mr. Green. Okay. And let the record reflect that all
persons raised their hands. Twenty thousand is a low number.
So, we have not decided to bankrupt the country to do this for
20,000 vouchers, $25 million over 2 years, given what we are
spending. We can do this.
One more question. You said also, sir, that the money is
not going where it's supposed to go. I don't want to put
anybody on the spot, but I do have to ask this question. If you
agree that the money's not going where it's supposed to go,
would you raise your hand, please.
[Show of hands]
Mr. Green. Okay. Leave your hands up a little longer there.
Okay, now, if you did not raise your hand then, raise your hand
now.
[Laughter]
Mr. Green. Let the record reflect that every person on this
panel has indicated that the money is not going where it's
supposed to go. Now that's our challenge. We have a challenge
of getting the money where it's supposed to go, and we have to
make sure that the money benefits the people that it's supposed
to benefit when it gets there.
One more question dealing with employment. Everybody seems
to see this as the gravamen, if you will, of the problem;
employment. Do we need to have some sort of program, if it
doesn't exist now, that specifically deals in a much more
pervasive way, in a much broader fashion, with the employment
issue presented when a person goes into the military, and maybe
he's in artillery, and he comes out of the military, and he
can't find a job in artillery? He has served his country well,
and we are honored that he did. But there ought to be some
means by which persons can make that transition in an orderly,
systematic fashion. Tell me, do we have a program in place now
that is pervasive enough to deal with the unemployment issues?
If you think so, if you think not, would you kindly raise your
hand?
[Show of hands]
Mr. Green. Okay. Lower your hands. You may lower your
hands. You really want to vote on this one I see. Now if you
did not raise your hand then, raise your hand now. Let the
record reflect that all members of the panel raised their
hands.
You talked about a new paradigm, and my time is almost up.
Would you be willing to visit with, any number of you, with my
staff members? Oscar Ramirez is here. He's my legislative
director. I really am now moved to try to go beyond what we're
trying to do. I think this is needed now. You have caused me to
have a broader vision of where we need to go, but I'm not sure
that I understand all of the pieces of the puzzle, and I would
dearly appreciate it if some of you would be willing to work
with Mr. Ramirez so that we can look at this new paradigm.
Veterans ought not to have to sleep in the streets of life in
the richest country in the world.
Thank you, Madam Chairwoman. I yield back.
Chairwoman Waters. You're so welcome. Mr. Cleaver?
Mr. Cleaver. Madam Chairwoman, thank you. Since all of the
members of this panel agree with my colleague, Mr. Green, I
don't have a lot to say or ask.
I would wonder if any of you has some statistics. Our
colleague, Charles Rangel of New York, has introduced a bill
more for impact than for an attempt to pass it. It is a bill to
restore the draft. He did so because it is his belief, and I
must add the belief of probably hundreds of thousands, if not
millions of other Americans, that if you demographically look
at the soldiers in Iraq, that they are low-income people.
Therefore, that--I mean, if you can take this further, we go to
war easily when we have low-income people out in the trenches.
But I'm not even going there.
Where I want to go is, do any of you have any information
about the demographics? Because if in fact Charlie Rangel is
accurate, it means that the people who are coming home are not
just veterans with problems, physical and mental, they are
veterans who are poor with mental and physical problems. And so
it seems to me that we might need to design--not only Mr.
Green's legislation. This problem is herculean, I think, and we
may not be looking at it holistically. So in any of the work
you've done, do you have any demographics that you could share.
Ms. Roman, please.
Ms. Roman. We did see that among the people with housing
cost burdens, 87 percent were extremely low income. And that's
why we suggested that part of the problem really is just
poverty, and people can't be expected to get meaningful
employment if they live in a shelter. One thing to consider in
terms of going to scale really is some kind of housing benefit
for veterans across the board, low-income veterans or disabled
low-income veterans, to just address this economic piece. The
question of people with disabilities who need supportive
housing is different. You know, affordability is an issue
there, too, but in that case, sources linked to the housing are
also needed.
But, clearly, you're correct that poverty is causing a lot
of these problems with respect to housing.
Mr. Cleaver. Yes?
Mr. Weidman. If I may suggest, Mr. Cleaver, we know a
number of things about the people who are serving today in OIF
and OEF. One of those things is that 60 percent of them come
from towns of 25,000 or less. In other words, it's the most
rural army we've fielded since prior to World War I, probably
since the Spanish-American War, because--and the reason for
that is economic.
In a lot of areas, in rural areas, in small towns, there
aren't a lot of options for employment. So what do people do?
To supplement their income, they have joined the National Guard
and the Reserves, and it's an economic thing. Therefore, they
get activated, and if they're a young person, there is no place
in many parts of the country, there's no employment available
in that part of Texas or that part of Iowa or whatever State,
and therefore they join the military.
And when they come out on the other end, the--employment in
fact is the key, and there is no--the means available through
the Workforce Investment Act, if we had a Secretary of Labor
who would address it with discretionary funds, but there isn't
any Secretary of Labor that does address it with those billions
in discretionary funds. So there is a means there, but there
isn't the will to do it.
I would just add that some tools that are available for
employment and for not going back to the economic circumstances
that caused one to enlist either in the Guard and Reserve or in
active duty in the first place, one of them is, thanks to Mr.
Rangel's leadership on Ways and Means, we now have the Worker
Opportunity Tax Credit for any disabled veteran of any age that
is $6,000 back to the employer of the first $12,000 paid. But
nobody knows it. Nobody knows it. The American Legion, VVA, and
VFW have done more to publicize this to employers working with
the United States Chamber than the Department of Labor has.
So, in addition to needing more tools, we need the
political will to care about folks once they leave military
service.
Mr. Cleaver. Yes.
Mr. Weidman. And because--instead of having people that
once they get hurt or they've ended their term of service, that
you throw them away like expended war materiel. These are
United States citizens who voluntarily took that step forward,
pledging life and limb in defense of the Constitution, and we
can and must do better by these individuals.
Mr. Cleaver. Yes, sir, Mr. Chamrin.
Mr. Chamrin. If I may, thank you, sir. We have testified
numerous times before the House Committee on Veterans Affairs,
Subcommittee on Economic Opportunity. And our studies have
shown that education leads to better employment, which can lead
to financial stability. Now I can give you the demographic
report, but off the top of my head, only 20 percent of enlisted
members have a bachelor's degree or higher.
I have numbers here that the average median income for
someone who gets a degree, of all Americans, is $55,000 a year.
There are currently 400,000 veterans who have served honorably
in Iraq and Afghanistan who are losing earned education
benefits just because they're leaving the National Guard and
Reserve. Now these are 400,000 honorably served veterans who
are potentially being severely rent burdened because they are
no longer going to have the means to go into college. They
could end up similar to myself, $50,000 in debt for just
college alone. And I have no credit card debt. The military
definitely creates highly disciplined, educated, committed
soldiers with integrity. They're quality citizens. So by not
supporting them in just plain old education is a travesty upon
our Nation. And with numbers I think we said before, 60 percent
of the workforce is going to be turned over by 2020. We need
competent, educated people to replace these Federal employees
and private employees, and veterans are those people. At least
get them an education to be competitive in the workforce.
Mr. Cleaver. Thank you.
Chairwoman Waters. You're certainly welcome. And I'd like
to thank this panel. Listening to your testimony today while we
are focused on housing, because this is the Subcommittee on
Housing and Community Opportunity, I wish we could take this
veterans issue and include employment and education so that we
could bring it all together. But we are committed to working
with the appropriate committees to do that.
One last thing before we adjourn: There used to be a time
when members of the African American community would advise
their sons to go to the service, because they said, you know,
you can get trained. You can get some discipline. You aren't
doing anything now, so go in there and you'll be a better
person coming out, and you'll learn something and you'll be
able to get a job when you come out. What happened to those
jobs and that training? Has Halliburton taken all of the
training away from our soldiers and jobs that they could be
doing? Is there any training going on at all when they go into
the service?
Mr. Chamrin. If I may, ma'am, there's a huge problem with
licensing and certification of military occupational
specialties and the transfer of those skills to the civilian
sector. And Rick and I have testified numerous, numerous times
about this, is that less than 10 percent of all jobs in the
military are actually transferrable to the civilian sector
using the military licensing. So that's something that could
really assist the veterans, and it's not going to cost a lot,
at least have the DoD provide transferrable licensing and
certification to the civilian sector.
Mr. Radcliff. Another piece of that, and, you know, of the
17,000 veterans we've served, all of them were poor and
homeless. A key piece in that is that the job--there is no
translator in the civilian world. And most employers are
looking for employees. They don't want to go through the whole
translation period, even the work opportunity tax credits. A
lot of these employers don't want to take the time to have the
burden of filling out that paperwork and getting the benefit of
the work opportunity tax credit. So in the real world, it is,
what it looks like is that we need to get services that are
onsite, that are unique, that are not necessarily a part of
just mainstream, because a lot of the WIA one-stop work source
centers don't see homeless veterans, don't see necessarily low-
income veterans.
Chairwoman Waters. Well, this has been so informative and
so good for us. I thank you all for being here, and I'd like to
note that some members may have additional questions for this
panel which they wish to submit in writing. Without objection,
the hearing record will remain open for 30 days for members to
submit written questions to these witnesses, and to place their
responses in the record.
And before we adjourn, without objection, the written
statement of the National Association of Realtors will be made
a part of the record. Thank you. This committee is now
adjourned and the panel is dismissed. This will be the first
time in all of my hearings that I will ask you to remain down
there for a few minutes so that we can take some pictures with
you. Thank you very much.
[Whereupon, at 1:42 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.]
A P P E N D I X
December 5, 2007
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