[Senate Hearing 111-714]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
S. Hrg. 111-714
NOMINATION OF MAJOR GENERAL (RET.)
ROBERT A. HARDING, ADMINISTRATOR,
TRANSPORTATION SECURITY ADMINISTRATION,
AND ASSISTANT SECRETARY-DESIGNATE,
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY
=======================================================================
HEARING
before the
COMMITTEE ON COMMERCE,
SCIENCE, AND TRANSPORTATION
UNITED STATES SENATE
ONE HUNDRED ELEVENTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
__________
MARCH 23, 2010
__________
Printed for the use of the Committee on Commerce, Science, and
Transportation
SENATE COMMITTEE ON COMMERCE, SCIENCE, AND TRANSPORTATION
U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
62-407 WASHINGTON : 2010
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20402-0001
ONE HUNDRED ELEVENTH CONGRESS
SECOND SESSION
JOHN D. ROCKEFELLER IV, West Virginia, Chairman
DANIEL K. INOUYE, Hawaii KAY BAILEY HUTCHISON, Texas,
JOHN F. KERRY, Massachusetts Ranking
BYRON L. DORGAN, North Dakota OLYMPIA J. SNOWE, Maine
BARBARA BOXER, California JOHN ENSIGN, Nevada
BILL NELSON, Florida JIM DeMINT, South Carolina
MARIA CANTWELL, Washington JOHN THUNE, South Dakota
FRANK R. LAUTENBERG, New Jersey ROGER F. WICKER, Mississippi
MARK PRYOR, Arkansas GEORGE S. LeMIEUX, Florida
CLAIRE McCASKILL, Missouri JOHNNY ISAKSON, Georgia
AMY KLOBUCHAR, Minnesota DAVID VITTER, Louisiana
TOM UDALL, New Mexico SAM BROWNBACK, Kansas
MARK WARNER, Virginia MIKE JOHANNS, Nebraska
MARK BEGICH, Alaska
Ellen L. Doneski, Staff Director
James Reid, Deputy Staff Director
Bruce H. Andrews, General Counsel
Ann Begeman, Acting Republican Staff Director
Brian M. Hendricks, Republican General Counsel
Nick Rossi, Republican Chief Counsel
C O N T E N T S
----------
Page
Hearing held on March 23, 2010................................... 1
Statement of Senator Rockefeller................................. 1
Statement of Senator Hutchison................................... 3
Prepared statement........................................... 7
Statement of Senator LeMieux..................................... 9
Statement of Senator Warner...................................... 11
Statement of Senator Klobuchar................................... 14
Witnesses
Harding, Major General (Ret.) Robert A., Administrator,
Transportation Security Administration, and Assistant
Secretary-Designate, U.S. Department of Homeland Security...... 3
Prepared statement........................................... 4
Appendix
Thune, Hon. John, U.S. Senator from South Dakota, prepared
statement...................................................... 19
NOMINATION OF MAJOR GENERAL (RET.)
ROBERT A. HARDING, ADMINISTRATOR,
TRANSPORTATION SECURITY
ADMINISTRATION, AND ASSISTANT
SECRETARY-DESIGNATE, U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY
----------
TUESDAY, MARCH 23, 2010
U.S. Senate,
Committee on Commerce, Science, and Transportation,
Washington, DC.
The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 9:32 a.m. in room
SR-253, Russell Senate Office Building, Hon. John D.
Rockefeller IV, Chairman of the Committee, presiding.
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. JOHN D. ROCKEFELLER IV,
U.S. SENATOR FROM WEST VIRGINIA
The Chairman. The hearing will come to order, as soon as I
have poured my water. Even generals have to wait on water
sometimes.
We are here today to consider the nomination of Major
General Robert Harding to be the Administrator, the long-
awaited, the extremely long-awaited, the desperately needed
Transportation Security Administrator of TSA.
First, I want to welcome and congratulate Mr. Harding and
also your wife, who is with you. You do recognize your wife,
right?
General Harding. I do.
The Chairman. Well, I would like to have her stand so that
we can--Kay Bailey Hutchison and I can see her. That is right.
See, that is good. Committee practice.
I want to congratulate you for your service to our Nation.
I said that to you in private. You have got an incredibly long
record of service in the intelligence field and national
security in general.
We simply cannot ignore the fact that our Transportation
Security Administration has had no administrator, no leader of
the team. All kinds of things have happened, but for various
reasons, we just haven't had a leader of the team. I think we
have got one now.
The attempted Christmas Day attack illustrated the absolute
need for a TSA director. It is an extraordinarily important
post, and you preside over 500, 700 million passengers flying
in this country and well over a billion in another 5 or 6 or 7
years.
Our enemies, as you know so well, are persistent. They are
very dangerous, and we all know they plan new attacks, always
planning new attacks. We need a highly qualified, strong
administrator to lead the TSA and its workforce in protecting
our country against future attacks. And I have no doubt that
Major General Robert Harding is ready and qualified to lead the
agency effectively.
Before retiring, he served 33 years and developed extensive
intelligence experience in the United States Army. There are
reams of material on that. During his time with the Army, Major
General Harding served as Director of Operations at the Defense
Intelligence Agency--that is, just below the guy who directs
the whole thing, Director of Operations; Director of the Agency
is not much different--Director for Intelligence for the Army's
U.S. Southern Command, and in several other important
positions.
And with such a broad background in intelligence and
security and such strong management and leadership experience,
I believe Major General Harding has the skills to make a really
positive and needed impact at that agency.
I worry about that agency. I worry about morale. I worry
about equipment. I worry about a lot of things, which we can
talk about.
Mr. Harding, the Commerce Committee has a significant role
in Homeland Security oversight. We share that with another
committee. Should you be confirmed, I intend to work with you
to make sure that TSA succeeds. I am particularly interested in
having TSA complete its ongoing cargo and surface
transportation initiatives, improving the security of general
aviation, which is a subject rarely discussed but much in need
of discussion, and helping to develop and implement new
technologies that will advance commercial aviation security.
I also expect you to work with Congress to make sure TSA
has the funds it needs to secure our transportation system. In
other words, we have oversight. We share oversight with another
committee, but we also are here to help you, and we want you to
have the budget you need. We are all aware of the President's
constraints. But we are also aware of our national needs.
I have said this before, and I will say it again--this is
one of the toughest positions in Washington because the safety
and security of our citizens is our most solemn responsibility.
And you have that so directly.
The attempted Christmas Day attack made it absolutely clear
that we continue to struggle to share intelligence effectively
across agencies. It is quite remarkable, if you do reading on
your experiences and on the intelligence community, which I
know from service on the Committee, 9/11 got us a little bit to
share information, but not really very much. And it is not
where it should be. The FBI isn't where it should be. And
nobody is where they should be.
So securing good intelligence, protecting our citizens with
knowing what is going to happen before it happens is often the
best way to protect them. If we are serious about addressing
the gaps in both our homeland security and intelligence
communities, there is substantial work still to be done.
So, in closing, to move forward, we need effective leaders
at key agencies like the TSA. We need somebody who can hit the
ground running and provide clear direction. General Harding's
distinguished career in both government and the private sector,
where he gained the strong management and leadership skills
that the position demands, make him a good fit for the mission.
Of that, I am clear.
As you know, the nature of the job is that you listen to
many complaints and you get no praise. But together, I believe
we can work to make TSA successful. I look forward to your
testimony, Major General Harding.
And I call now upon my distinguished colleague, Ranking
Member, Senator Kay Bailey Hutchison.
STATEMENT OF HON. KAY BAILEY HUTCHISON,
U.S. SENATOR FROM TEXAS
Senator Hutchison. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
I will not take long. I will say that I think your service
to your country, 33 years, is very impressive and being Deputy
Chief of Staff of the Army, Director of Operations for the
Defense Intelligence Agency are great qualifications for this
job.
And I agree with the Chairman. It is one of the toughest
jobs in all of our Government because so many people depend on
the safety of our air transportation system, as well as our
surface transportation system.
And I think the Chairman mentioned, but I am in complete
agreement that we have, I think, put so much emphasis on
aviation safety, as we should, that perhaps we haven't looked
enough at surface transportation safety for buses and trains.
And I think that is something that you are going to have to
take under your purview.
One of the issues that I want to make sure we are also
addressing is Federal law, which as you know, does prohibit
screeners in the TSA from striking. However, there are efforts
ongoing for collective bargaining by TSA screeners, and
previous TSA Administrators have said that they would be very,
very concerned about collective bargaining not allowing the
flexibility that they need to be able to deploy forces to a
certain area of an airport, or to a certain airport, to change
the working hours if a crisis, or an emergency, is at hand.
I hope that you will also be looking at the flexibility of
the workforce and the need for that flexibility as one of your
priorities. So, with that, I would like to just go on to
questions, if the Chairman is ready? Because I have another
hearing at 10 a.m. that I also am Ranking Member on.
The Chairman. You go ahead.
Senator Hutchison. Really? Oh, good. Thank you.
OK. Let me ask you, first, on the issue of collective
bargaining for screeners, how would you handle that in your
capacity as the leader of this agency?
STATEMENT OF MAJOR GENERAL (RET.) ROBERT A. HARDING,
ADMINISTRATOR, TRANSPORTATION SECURITY
ADMINISTRATION, AND ASSISTANT SECRETARY-DESIGNATE,
U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY
General Harding. Senator Hutchison, thanks for asking the
question. I am familiar with the issue and, since being asked
to consider the position, have studied it.
I recognize that all parties agree on the same things,
Senator, that you just indicated. All parties agree on the need
for flexibility and agility. All parties agree on the necessity
for the Administrator to have the ability to move screeners at
a moment's notice in response or prior to a terrorist incident.
Everyone seems to agree that we need to strengthen security.
If confirmed, I would love to have the opportunity to
broaden the experience that I have already had in looking into
this by talking to a very broad cross-section of the
transportation security officers, of other members of TSA, as
well as members in DHS. And as I have learned for 33 years in
the military and especially in my last few years as a flag
officer, provide the best advice I can to the decisionmaker, in
this case, the Secretary.
And I think the Secretary and I, in arriving at a decision,
will be very concerned about the implementation of such a
change, if it was to be accepted. Again, we both agree,
Senator, that we would never bargain away security. But we
probably also both agree that I would really need to do, I
think, an in-depth and thorough review before I inform the
Secretary of my recommendation.
[The prepared statement of General Harding follows:]
Prepared Statement of Major General (Ret.) Robert A. Harding,
Administrator, Transportation Security Administration, and Assistant
Secretary-Designate, U.S. Department of Homeland Security
Good morning Chairman Rockefeller, Senator Hutchison, and
distinguished members of the Committee. It is a privilege to appear
before you today as the President's nominee for Assistant Secretary of
the Transportation Security Administration (TSA). I am deeply honored
by the President's call to service and by the support I have received
from Secretary Napolitano.
With your kind indulgence, I would like to recognize my wife and my
children. It is their love and support that has sustained me through
the years. I also want to express my deep appreciation to those I met
in the course of my 33-year career in the U.S. Army who shaped my
ideals, character and vision. Who I am today is very much a product of
my time in the U.S. Army.
Last, but not least, I want the men and women of TSA to know that I
am eager to join their ranks and to lead them in safeguarding our
Nation's transportation system.
The December 25, 2009, attack on Northwest Flight 253 reminded us
of the ever-evolving threat our Nation confronts as terrorists seek new
and inventive means to defeat the security measures the global
community have put into place since September 11, 2001.
Since its creation following the tragic 9/11 terrorist attack, TSA
has played a vital role in securing aviation and other modes of
transportation. If confirmed, I look forward to working in close
collaboration with our partners in the intelligence and international
community; Federal state, and local governments; private industry; and,
most importantly, the traveling public to continue to meet the
challenge of keeping our Nation's complex transportation system secure.
I believe I am uniquely qualified to lead TSA in advancing its
mission. I have spent over 30 years in the Intelligence Community. I
served as the U.S. Army's Deputy G2 (Intelligence) at the time of my
military retirement in 2001, and as the Director for Operations at the
Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA). At DIA, as the Department of
Defense's (DOD) senior Human Intelligence (HUMINT) Officer, I managed
intelligence collection program requirements and supervised security of
DOD's Defense attaches in over 200 embassies/offices around the world.
I also commanded a HUMINT and Counterintelligence Battalion in Korea,
and the Army's premier Counterintelligence Group, the 902nd, at Fort
Meade.
Since my retirement from the U.S. Army, I have served as CEO of
Harding Security Associates (HSA), a company I founded in 2003 and sold
in July 2009. I built the company into a workforce of highly trained
professionals providing strategic security solutions to U.S. Government
agencies in the Intelligence and Defense communities. I have no current
financial or ownership interests in the company and I have entered into
an ethics agreement with the Department's designated agency ethics
official, which has been provided to this Committee, to ensure no
conflicts of interest arise.
I know the importance and value of coordinated efforts between
Federal agencies. As the Director for Intelligence for the Army's U.S.
Southern Command, I coordinated efforts between the DIA, Drug
Enforcement Administration (DEA), FBI, CIA and Customs on sensitive
interagency counter-drug operations.
My intimate familiarity with counterterrorism matters, military
assignments implementing intelligence programs throughout the world,
and reliance upon ever-changing technological advances have equipped me
to meet the current and future challenges of TSA.
If confirmed, I will ensure that TSA continues to work closely with
and receives necessary intelligence from the Intelligence Community,
and that this information is applied across transportation modes. While
TSA is primarily a consumer of intelligence, I will work closely with
our partners in the Intelligence Community to improve the kinds of
information needed from the watchlist system; and if confirmed, I will
continue the work begun from the President's review to work with our
interagency partners to review and, where necessary, modify the
criteria and process used to build the Terrorist Screening Data base
(TSDB) and nominate names for the No-Fly and Selectee Lists.
Given the global dimensions of aviation security, I will also
support Secretary Napolitano's historic effort to bolster international
aviation security, by working with our partners around the world to
enhance information collection and sharing, increase cooperation on
technological development, and modernize global aviation security
standards.
Additionally, I will encourage the use of enhanced screening
technologies, both at domestic airports and by our international
partners, while remaining respectful of privacy, and civil rights and
liberties. Our objective in using these technologies is clear: to
strengthen our abilities to find dangerous materials and to stop
dangerous people.
From my military service, I know all too well how important a well
trained workforce is. You have my commitment to enhance training
opportunities and invest in developing TSA's employees.
If confirmed, I look forward to a close working relationship with
Congress and this Committee. I welcome your oversight, your
suggestions, and appreciate your dedication to ensuring our Nation's
security. In closing, I again thank President Obama and Secretary
Napolitano for their confidence and faith in my ability to lead TSA.
Mr. Chairman, Senator Hutchison, I thank you for the opportunity to
appear before you today and I look forward to answering your questions
and, if confirmed, undertaking the challenges that lie ahead.
Senator Hutchison. Well, I understand your inability to
make a clear answer. But I am going to be very interested in
following this because I just think that there are some jobs
that aren't 9 to 5, and when people apply for them, they should
know it is not 9 to 5.
Security and law enforcement, military as well, are those
kinds of jobs. And so, I hope that you will be very forthcoming
on this because it will be of great concern to many of us.
Speaking of that, I want to also ask the question that I
ask of every one of our nominees, who is going to be in a
position to run an agency or have a major commission
appointment, and that is that we rely on an open dialogue with
the people whom we confirm. It is part of our oversight
responsibility. I want to ask you if all members of our
committee and our staffs can count on the cooperative
relationship with your agency and you, as we go forward?
General Harding. Senator, you can count on that.
Senator Hutchison. Thank you.
Let me ask you one other question, and that is about your
previous company that you founded and have since sold, Harding
Security Associates. I think that some of our staffs have
talked to you about what your plans are for recusal of yourself
from contracts that might be coming up just within a few months
of your confirmation. I think maybe July of this year your
recusal commitment, previous commitment, would run out.
How do you intend to handle contracts that might come up in
key areas of the Transportation Security Administration with
your former clients from your private sector position,
following your retirement?
General Harding. Senator, I would recuse myself, as you
indicated. Four things come to mind. One, I worked for quite a
few weeks with the Office of Government Ethics. I decided in
working with the Office of Government Ethics to draw a very
bright line and go up and above what would normally be expected
of a nominee.
So I met the hurdles of the normal expectation, which is
the ethics pledge, as well as President Obama--I am sorry, the
ethics regulations, as well as President Obama's pledge. And
that would mean that I would recuse myself from any dealings
with my former company, which I walked away from and have no
connection with.
I would, in addition, recuse myself in this very bright
line and up and above what is normally expected in the
regulation and the pledge. I would recuse myself from dealing
with any companies that actually worked with my company. And
that would be, according to the Office of Government Ethics
recommendation, for a year from the sale of the company.
Senator Hutchison. All right. I may want to pursue that
further when I look at what some of the relationships are with
former clients, but I need to get a clearer list. So could I
submit a question to you in writing later?
General Harding. Absolutely, Senator.
Senator Hutchison. And would you be willing to answer it?
General Harding. We have all of that listed, and I would be
glad to provide that to you.
Senator Hutchison. OK. My last question then, and I
appreciate the Chairman's indulgence, is on surface
transportation. Sixty-eight percent of the President's budget
request for TSA for 2011 is for aviation security. Two percent
is for surface transportation security, and yet we have seen in
other places severe attacks in trains, as well as buses and
other types of public transportation, surface transportation.
What would be your commitment in looking at what can be
done in the surface transportation areas to increase the
priorities there?
General Harding. Senator, I think that is a very important
question. And I think the answer is informed by intelligence.
And as we discussed, intelligence is the common denominator
across all modes of transportation. We have actually seen, as
you indicated, where a threat, if they could not attack by air,
would look for other modes of transportation.
I would welcome the opportunity, if confirmed, to work with
stakeholders in looking at a systematic way of applying threat
and risk management and risk mitigation across all modes of
transportation. I recognize that would be my responsibility, if
confirmed.
I applaud the fact that TSA has already recognized that the
intermodal nature of the transportation system that we are
sworn to safeguard allows examples like the VIPR teams, the
Visible Intermodal Protection and Reaction teams that you see
providing visible examples of how interagencies come together
in things like other than aviation. I think initiatives like
that are very important both because of their visibility as
well as their inherent bringing together of interagencies, and
I would like, if confirmed, to continue that process.
And finally, combining the threat that we would work with
DHS's INA on, the Intelligence and Analysis shop. Caryn Wagner,
who I have had the fortune of working with for 15 years. We
would apply both the resources and the budget appropriately
across all of TSA based on what we see as the threat.
Senator Hutchison. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman, very much.
[The prepared statement of Senator Hutchison follows:]
Prepared Statement of Hon. Kay Bailey Hutchison, U.S. Senator from
Texas
Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for holding today's hearing. I share your
sense of urgency about the need to confirm a new leader for the
Transportation Security Administration (TSA), and appreciate your
scheduling this hearing before the Easter recess. TSA, which is so
critical to fulfilling the mission of the Department of Homeland
Security (DHS), and protecting the traveling public, has been without
an Administrator for more than a year.
Major General Harding, we welcome you and thank you for your
willingness to serve as TSA Administrator and Assistant Secretary at
DHS. I commend you for your life-long commitment to your country. Your
33 years in the U.S. Army, including serving as the Army's Deputy Chief
of Staff with responsibility for the Army's intelligence functions and
as the Director for Operations for the Defense Intelligence Agency, are
quite impressive.
If confirmed, the job before you will be extremely difficult and
the decisions you make will have tremendous impact on the safety and
economic viability of our national transportation system across all
modes. The challenges and threat assessments that our intelligence and
security community face everyday are too numerous to mention, but I do
have a number of topics I would like to briefly highlight.
First, is the issue of allowing transportation security officers
(TSOs), or screeners, to collectively bargain. Federal law does
prohibit screeners from striking; however, former TSA Administrators
have argued that allowing screeners to collectively bargain could have
dire consequences on TSA's fundamental security mission, by degrading
TSA's need for a flexible workforce which can react quickly to emerging
threats. How you specifically intend to address the collective
bargaining issue will be of great interest to this committee.
Second, you are going to have to work very hard to establish a more
cooperative and trusting relationship with industry across all modes
and sizes. I repeatedly hear from constituents and stakeholder groups
that TSA quickly turns a deaf ear to cooperation and partnerships with
industry, and too often uses blunt force in policy areas that need a
more highly coordinated and agreed upon approach.
Third, the day-to-day management challenges of running and leading
an agency of over 50,000 people are immense. I will be interested to
hear your thoughts on how to lead and manage the agency most
effectively and efficiently.
Finally, I will have some questions about your work with the
defense and intelligence contracting firm you established after
retiring from the military. I have no reason to question your
integrity, or the truthfulness of the information you have submitted to
the Committee, but the Committee has an obligation to ensure that a
nominee's past positions, and performance in those positions, will not
create conflicts of interest or otherwise compromise the Federal
Government and the security of the Nation.
Congress and the traveling public put an enormous amount of trust
in the TSA every day. The inherent need and economic implications of
maintaining a safe and secure transportation system are an integral
part of our national security.
Mr. Chairman, thank you. I look forward to your testimony, Major
General Harding.
The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Hutchison.
It is interesting the way we react in America. We react to
events. We don't see them coming as well as we should. And you
sort of intersect those, both the responsibility, but also the
intelligence aspect, looking out to find where things might be
coming from.
And when you look back after the shoe bomber, we all
started taking our shoes off, and that was fine. Loafers, I
assume, went up in the stock market. And then after the 2006
commercial departings from London, all of a sudden we were down
to 3 ounces, and anything over 3 ounces was not acceptable. And
that sort of sums up in my thinking a question that perplexes
me.
You have a limited amount of money. That is going to remain
so. On the other hand, I really do believe in intelligence. I
really do believe, putting it bluntly, that Leon Panetta has
made one heck of a difference in what is going on in
Afghanistan and parts of Pakistan. He does that through
intelligence. He does that through other methods. But that is
proactive. That is looking before something happens, taking
care of a problem before something happens.
So help me understand in your mind the difference between
vetting the passenger getting on the airplane and patting the
person down, putting them through screening, wide body imaging
when that comes, as opposed to--or not as opposed to, but in
conjunction with spending money and time on the intelligence
that leads you to warnings.
Now that is a very hard question because there are so many
people and so many places. But you come from that background. I
believe in what I say, but I am not sure what the proper
balance is. Maybe you could give me your views?
General Harding. Mr. Chairman, a very good point, what you
are describing is the difference between 100 percent risk
avoidance and risk management. What you are also describing is
the chances that we are willing to take in a very measured way
using intelligence applied to risk management. And TSA, I
noticed, is going in that direction, and therefore, the product
list you referred to changed over time.
I think, if confirmed, things like the product list need to
continue to evolve. But more importantly, to your point,
intelligence--a choice between pure risk avoidance in this
Nation and being informed by intelligence, I would choose to be
informed by intelligence. I would choose to make decisions
based on the intelligence that we gather. I would choose to be
a proactive member of the intelligence community, working with
my colleague at the Department of Homeland Security, Caryn
Wagner, on the intelligence analysis piece.
I would choose to use that intelligence effectively, again,
as Senator Hutchison pointed out, in applying resources across
the entire transportation system. And I would use intelligence
in a way that would allow our stakeholders and, more
importantly, the American public to understand what we are
doing, why we are doing it. To the extent possible, I would
share intelligence with the stakeholders that include the
associations, even industry we would look to to help us on the
technological side, to help us not just meet the threat, but to
stay ahead of the threat.
We have to be proactive. This committee especially
recognizes the evolving nature of the threat. What we have to
do is stay ahead of that threat.
And the bottom-line answer, Mr. Chairman, is I think
through the use of intelligence, correct application of
intelligence, being a proactive member in the intelligence
community, using that to inform stakeholders and apply
resources is what will help us move forward, both
technologically and keeping up and ahead of the threat and
moving away from things that appear to be more security theater
than actual security.
The Chairman. I think I got that. I am not totally sure
that I did. Can you give me an example of where--and then this
will be my last question, we will go on to others--where
intelligence has been helpful, as you have perhaps heard about
it with respect to potentially dangerous passengers?
General Harding. In the run-up to these hearings, I have
had briefings that I can't go into detail here. But I have had
briefings where the intelligence that TSA is using has
indicated how the threat plans to hide and conceal devices as
an example, and I have seen measures then put into place in
airports on how we check passengers based on that intelligence.
The Chairman. OK. I thank you.
Senator LeMieux?
STATEMENT OF HON. GEORGE S. LeMIEUX,
U.S. SENATOR FROM FLORIDA
Senator LeMieux. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
General Harding, thank you for putting yourself up again
for public service.
After 33 years in the military, serving as a general and
being in charge of the Defense Intelligence Agency, I think
that you have the experience for this job, and I am glad that
the President has put forward somebody who has this
intelligence focus. You and I spoke about this when we met
previous to today's hearing.
And in your testimony, you speak of although you will be a
consumer of intelligence, that you will work closely with your
partners in the intelligence community to improve the kinds of
information needed. And you talked about working with Ms.
Wagner here a moment ago.
I think one thing that the American people expect is that
someone who is going to have a position like yours is meeting
on a regular basis with the other folks who are fighting this
war on terror, that you are meeting with the Director of
National Intelligence. You are meeting with the head of the
CIA, that you are meeting with the Secretary of Defense or
their surrogate.
And I hope that you will push for that type of
collaborative working relationship because I think you having
that information is essential to doing the job that you need to
do to protect the American people. Is that something that you
agree with?
General Harding. Absolutely, Senator LeMieux.
Senator LeMieux. I want to talk to you, as we discussed
also in my office, and that is the idea of not just using
intelligence, which I appreciate and applaud, but also the idea
of using technology.
We send everyone through basically the same security,
whether they are a 4-year-old, an 85-year-old, or a 20-year-old
male from a foreign country. And I want you to speak, if you
will, about the idea of using behavioral screening, about new
technologies that are available, looking at models--for
example, what is used in Israel, where they have been
tremendously successful in stopping terrorists on their planes,
a country that is even more targeted than we are--and how we
can use technology with intelligence to put together something
like a threat index that would allow those--for example, you
are of no threat. You should be a zero on the threat index. But
there are others that should be checked more closely.
How can we differentiate the way that we treat people
through this TSA process so that we could expedite those people
who are not a threat, but pay close attention to those who
might be?
General Harding. A very good question, Senator. The
Transportation Security Administration has started the process
of layering security. Part of the layers of security speak to
your point on behavior detection, and so the TSA has deployed
behavior detection officers in airports. I think the number is
up to close to around 2,000.
You compare that to your example on Israel, and even though
there is a difference in scale, some of the things that we see
from our Israeli partners and friends is the use of engagement.
We have just started to do that in TSA. It is not at the same
level being done in Israel, but it started with a one-week
course and program for TSOs to engage. It is followed by
supervisors taking another week in those kinds of engagements.
I agree with you that we should move even closer to an
Israeli model where there is more engagement with passengers. I
think that increases the layers and pushes the layers out. I
think that a very important aspect of providing security is
engaging the public.
The last point is one of the things I was informed of in
the Israeli model is training, training, more training, and
drills. And if confirmed, I would look forward to working with
my 48,000 TSOs in ensuring that their training goes even
further than where we are presently and engage, move toward the
Israeli model of training and drilling. And I think you would
see a change very fast.
Senator LeMieux. A final question that I think is
appropriate to anyone who is running a governmental agency, and
that is the idea of using performance metrics and other tools
not unlike what the military uses to make sure that you are
getting the most out of the dollars that the American taxpayer
is spending to fund your agency.
We don't do a very good job in government in making sure
that we are doing things efficiently and effectively, and it is
not a sexy topic for folks who run agencies to really drill
down and find out whether or not the resources are being used
in the best possible way. But I would ask you and I hope to get
your commitment this morning that upon your confirmation, when
you take up this post, that you will use performance
evaluations and metrics and do everything you can not only as
an agency head, but as a manager to make sure that the American
taxpayer is getting their money's worth.
General Harding. You have my commitment, Senator.
Senator LeMieux. Thank you.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. General, let me just say before I call on
Senator Warner that we have an awkward situation this morning
in that we are having the signing of the health bill at the
White House, and we have to leave at 10:15 a.m. from this room,
Senator Warner and I do.
And so, what you will be doing--Amy Klobuchar came in and
left. But she had to go, but she had a whole series of
questions which she had, which she is going to send to you. And
I think what we are going to be doing, I am going to be doing
that on air cargo screening, general aviation, and some other
things simply because this is a rather large occasion, which
people have been working for for a long time.
But in any event, please understand that, that we are not
giving you short shrift.
General Harding. I totally understand, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. We are just actually cutting you a little
more time for your morning.
Senator Warner?
STATEMENT OF HON. MARK WARNER,
U.S. SENATOR FROM VIRGINIA
Senator Warner. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
And actually, General Harding, maybe I think, it is a good
idea that we are all leaving and the hearing is ending quicker.
And I will be brief, recognizing our time constraints.
Let me, first of all, echo what some of my colleagues have
said, and it is good to see you again, General Harding. And I
think the President has chosen well. Someone with your unique
background and qualifications, and I think you are going to be
a great TSA Administrator and look forward to working with you.
I want to also add kind of ditto agreement with my
colleague, Senator LeMieux. As a former business guy and
Governor, I am pretty focused on metrics as well and actually
have been asked by the Budget Committee to look on these
issues. And so, I want to reinforce what my colleague had said,
and I also will be looking for those kind of metrics,
performance metrics and milestones within the TSA.
I want to very quickly raise two questions that are perhaps
a little bit parochial in nature, but I think they actually
have applications beyond the specific circumstances of each of
the issues I am going to raise.
First is a circumstance, and I think this happened beyond
just at an airport, beyond just the airport I am going to raise
where TSA has made commitments, has not come through. The
circumstance and case in point I want to raise is the Richmond
airport.
The Richmond International Airport back in 2004 was doing a
significant upgrade of its facilities. TSA asked it do current
state-of-the-art inline explosive detection systems. Richmond
said they would go ahead and start down this path. TSA
committed to work with the Richmond airport.
TSA said, and I have got all the data here, in 2005, well,
we don't have the money right now. But you guys keep on going,
and we will be there for you. Richmond airport proceeded to go
ahead and put in this state-of-the-art detection system at
TSA's request, working with TSA. They finished this system in
2007, $3.6 million additional. Still no payment.
And in terms of--I think it is bad business. I think it is
also bad faith, and I also think it is an example of not the
kind of collaborative effort you want to have with your local
airport authorities. So I raised this with some of your
predecessors. I would really love to hear an explanation on how
not only this specific circumstance of Richmond would be dealt
with, but my understanding, there are other airports around the
country who have made investments in current technology at the
request of TSA, but have not been reimbursed for that.
Are you familiar with this circumstance in Richmond or some
of these other airports?
General Harding. Senator, I am familiar with the
circumstances in Richmond and other airports. I agree with your
sentiment, and if confirmed, you have my commitment that I
would look into that.
Senator Warner. Does that confirmation go to even actually
Richmond getting paid?
General Harding. Senator, you have my confirmation that I
promise to look into it. To be very candid with you, when I
first discussed this with the members of TSA, I asked to have
it broken out. Much like you, from a business point of view, I
am very understanding of how commitments get made by the
Government.
And what I wanted to do was ask all of those kinds of
commitments, whether the airports believed they were made or
not, if they have something in writing, let me look at those
and look at the broad range of them, and then let us just do
what is right. I promised, even before your question, to look
at that, Senator. And if confirmed, I promise to also get back
to you.
Senator Warner. Thank you. I have not seen or heard
anything from Richmond or anywhere else that there was any
misunderstanding. I have the documentation and will forward it
to you, if it would be helpful. There did not seem to be any
doubt, at least in anybody on the Richmond side, that there was
any ambiguity about TSA's, one, asking for this current
technology to be implemented and, two, that TSA would be
responsible for reimbursement. But thank you for that.
The second is, and perhaps I get this because as a former
Governor, local guy here, as I travel, particularly through
Reagan National and Dulles, I hear repeatedly from TSA
employees about low morale. And I know, particularly here in
the national capital area, there is a very high attrition rate,
particularly perhaps here higher in this region because there
are other Federal security agencies--FBI, Secret Service,
others--that could attract TSA personnel as they kind of get
trained up and then moved on.
But I would love to hear a comment or two about what you
can do about the attrition factors and morale issues across
TSA, and then I will close.
General Harding. Part of the testimony, Senator, that I
submitted talked to my priorities. The work force, well-led,
well-motivated workforce is very important to me, and that will
go to the issue of morale.
I can tell you that comparisons that have been made of the
transportation security officers of 48,000 or so to larger
organizations that have been around for a long time, compared
to TSA, which has been around for 9 years, I find interesting.
I find informative. There are things I think we need to do in
TSA because it is so young, because it is so large, and because
it is across 450 airports that are a little different than what
we see in other agencies.
If confirmed, Senator, the morale of the TSO workforce is a
very high priority of mine.
Senator Warner. Well, thank you, General Harding.
And thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The Chairman. Thank you, Senator Warner, very much.
Senator Klobuchar is on her way back, wants to ask a
question. Let me just, in the interim, ask a quick one.
General Harding. Sure.
The Chairman. Over a period of years, I have been very
frustrated by sort of the special treatment of general
aviation. They don't carry their weight financially in paying
for the air traffic control system, and I am talking about the
one that we have, which isn't any good. But also about the one
which we want, NextGen, which will be very, very good.
And so, the legacy airlines are the ones that have to pay
the freight, but they are not actually even the majority of
planes in the sky at any given moment. General aviation usually
is.
So my question to you is called the large aircraft security
program. Would you put it as a top priority to consider
developing a national strategy for how GA functions in an
appropriate proportionate way within our national air traffic
situation?
General Harding. Mr. Chairman, if confirmed, I totally
agree with you. It would be appropriate to look at general
aviation from the point of view not just of the threat, but
from the point of view as a stakeholder and as an industry that
is just as concerned with security as the rest of us are. I
would make that a very high priority to bring them into the
fold and to make them part of how we view, TSA views the total
transportation network.
The Chairman. I think that they are kind of the weak link
in the situation that you face. You go out to Dulles, and you
just walk onto a charter airplane. You are not checked. Your
baggage isn't checked. It could be anybody. It is quite
remarkable. It is true all over the country, as far as I know.
And I think that not just in the funding, the financing of
the system, but also just as a weak link factor, it is very
dangerous. And a lot of people use it. So you will take a look
at it?
General Harding. Mr. Chairman, I promise not only working
with the stakeholders in general aviation, but working with
your committee also. I think it is very important. You and I
discussed my experience and your experience using general
aviation. I think we agree that general aviation needs to be as
informed of the threat and prepared for it as the rest of the
transportation modes that we are responsible for, and it is
something that I would make a very high priority and look into,
Senator.
The Chairman. And you understand their frame of mind is
very different. I mean, they don't consider themselves a part
of it because they are privately owned. They pick their own
routes, do their own thing. But they use the air traffic
control system just the same as anybody else.
I am not talking about crop dusters or even King Airs. I am
talking about small jets on up. And I have tried to address
that in several ways, and it is just amazing what a few phone
calls will do from some of these people who own those jets. And
so, they shut down action in Congress, and it is not good. And
so, I just put that before you and now call upon my esteemed
colleague Senator Klobuchar, who is going to chair this.
STATEMENT OF HON. AMY KLOBUCHAR,
U.S. SENATOR FROM MINNESOTA
Senator Klobuchar. Thank you very much, Senator
Rockefeller. I am catching my breath. I literally ran here,
General Harding.
General Harding. Good to see you, Senator.
Senator Klobuchar. Well, thank you very much, and it was
good meeting with you in my office the other day.
And I want to thank Chairman Rockefeller for holding this
hearing on this important nomination. The position of TSA
Administrator, as we know, is one of the most important
positions in the Administration. That was made very clear to us
on Christmas Day. And as you know, that involved a Northwest
Airlines flight, which Northwest originally based in Minnesota
and now Delta. And so, we really care a lot about this issue.
I first wanted to ask you about your background in
intelligence and how do you feel that your military and
private-sector background are going to help to inform you to
work to protect America's transportation security?
General Harding. In three areas, Senator. My 33 years in
the military and rising through to the rank of Major General
has helped me understand some management practices and
principles that Senator Warner just implicated as far as morale
and the workforce, and I think that is very important.
My years in the intelligence community and most of my 33
years in the Army I spent within the intelligence community, I
think, are also very important to TSA in being able to inform
TSA across the board on the threat, the threat to aviation, the
threat to all modes of transportation. And I think the
associations that I have had in the intelligence community to
include my professional association with Caryn Wagner, who is
the head of intelligence for DHS, as well as throughout the
rest of the intelligence community, is very important and I
think would help TSA.
And finally, I think my experience in industry, where I
learned that attention to both the client as well as being very
attentive to the backroom is very important, and I think all
three--my experience in the Army, from management and
leadership; to experience in the intelligence community, which
I think would inform TSA; to my experience as a small business
owner in creating 400 jobs--is very important in some skills
that I would like to bring to the job, if confirmed.
Senator Klobuchar. Thank you.
One of the things that I know, and I know that Secretary
Napolitano has been working on this, but actually working with
some of the private sector and with the airlines on these
policies, especially overseas, is very important because, as
you know, as we transition in our security and the watch lists
and how things are handled differently, we still have the issue
that in a lot of the airports around the country, it is the
airlines that are on the front line in terms of sort of having
the responsibility for these lists.
Could you comment about how you see that relationship?
General Harding. I see that relationship evolving, Senator.
The watch list itself in the process, as you know, is
undergoing a review being led by John Brennan at the
President's direction. I am very familiar with how the
terrorist screening database informs both our selectee list and
no-fly list and how we are moving into Secure Flight.
If confirmed, I would like to sit with the participants in
the President's review, look at some of the preliminary
findings and, hopefully, be a stakeholder in the results, and
participate in how we shape a watch list system that is
understandable, transparent at least to the extent that it can
be to the intelligence community, and most importantly, as
effective as we can make it.
Senator Klobuchar. Very good. Now I would like to hear your
thoughts on the full body scanners. I think I explained to you
in my office, I am someone with a hip replacement that gets
patted down every single time. And so, this is actually kind of
appealing to me that I won't have to have this happen in front
of my constituents every single time I go through the lines.
But obviously, the real reason to do it is not for the
convenience of travelers, but for safety. There is still
uncertainty somewhat about this new technology, but also there
is great potential with it. And so, could you talk about your
views about these full body scanners and how you think they
should be rolled out?
General Harding. You hit the nail on the head. It is the
best technology that we have right now. I did get a chance to
visit the entire process at Reagan airport about a week ago. I
think one of my major concerns was from the privacy point of
view. I entered a booth at Reagan airport that is separated
from where the machine was. The machine is one of those
millimeter wave type of machines.
As I entered the booth, my phone, my iPhone was taken away
from me. I tested that to see whether or not somebody was
conscious enough to say this is something you can't bring into
the booth, and it was taken away. And as I entered the booth, I
got a chance to talk to the TSO who was sitting there with the
screen, and I asked exactly what he was doing.
And apparently, a woman was entering the millimeter wave
machine. She had an object on her left leg, middle. The TSO hit
his whisper device that communicated to the TSO onsite and
pointed out that location. The woman then went back through,
and it was something in her pocket that subsequently was
removed.
I then looked at the computer back in the booth and asked
this screener how can he save that image, which he could not
do. I am not a cyber expert, but I could tell from the way that
computer was configured, it had no storage. I then tried to
exit the room before the woman had left her second screening,
and I couldn't. I wasn't allowed to. And therefore, when she
was clear, I was able to leave the room after seeing that
image.
I was convinced that day that privacy was very important as
these whole body imaging machines were put into airports. I am
still working to come to grips with the footprint in every
airport, with the implementation across all 450 airports and
other things attendant to the technology improvement of those
machines.
I think in the future you will see those machines improved,
but I also believe that somehow--and there is a life cycle of
about 8 years, I think, on those machines. So sometime I would
believe in the next 2 or 3 years is a next-generation type of
technology that we need to be looking at that can get at better
and more capable views of the threat.
Senator Klobuchar. Because I think we saw like with those
puff portals, now there are, I think, 22 operating, that those
didn't exactly work the way people thought they would. So I
would imagine that there would be advances in technology as we
go forward.
The second thing which we touched on was the Secure Flight
program and the changeover to that with the watch list. And in
light of the Christmas bombing attempt and other issues that
have come out about the watch list, kind of the counter is that
you have people on these lists that shouldn't be on these
lists.
I think I mentioned to you the baby going to Disneyland
from Minnesota who had a common last name, who the family
weren't able to board the plane because his name appeared on a
watch list. This was years ago, and he still has--I think it
may have been fixed in the last few years, but he encountered
problems for years afterward.
So you have that going on, innocent people on those lists,
while at the same time, you have people like the Christmas Day
bomber whose name didn't appear on the list. So what do you
think needs to be done to fix it?
General Harding. I think we need to continue moving in the
direction of Secure Flight. I think moving the threat list into
the hands of TSA to do the screening is very important. I think
the redress program is something that the American traveling
public has been asking for for a long time. And from the
briefings that I have received, Senator, that seems to be
proceeding apace.
The bottom line is I think we need to continue to move in
that direction, and if confirmed, I think I would accelerate
the process, especially of Secure Flight. And I would love to
be more informed and ask questions about the effectiveness of
the redress program.
Senator Klobuchar. Do you believe that the TSA is going to
be able to meet the current goal of having Secure Flight fully
implemented for all domestic flights by this time, early 2010,
and for all international flights by the end of this year?
General Harding. I would like to get back to you on all of
the international flights, Senator. I believe that we will meet
the--I believe TSA will meet the domestic goal. But I would
like to take for the record and get back to you on the
international.
Senator Klobuchar. I also know Secretary Napolitano has
said that she has been meeting with other partners
internationally about their security and how we can work
together on this. Will you be involved in that as head of TSA,
if confirmed, in terms of trying to reach out to these other
airports in other countries?
General Harding. Very good question, Senator, and I expect
to be a fully participating member of the Secretary's team, and
I am pretty sure the international carriers would meet in
Canada, I believe, in September. And if confirmed, I am pretty
sure the Secretary would send me to that.
Senator Klobuchar. OK. In the President's budget, he
actually upped the number of Federal Air Marshal Service
personnel and, I think, put in $85 million for that and has
also requested $71 million to fund an additional 275
proprietary explosive detection canine teams. Can you elaborate
on the plan to use these additional personnel and canine teams
to utmost capacity and how you think that will work?
General Harding. Only to the extent that they are part of
the layering system that I described earlier. The canine teams
are very important to the layers of security that we provide
around the airports, that TSA currently provides around the
airports, as are the air marshals. And I applaud the increase
in support and resources for the air marshals and the canines.
Senator Klobuchar. In his speech on January 7, the
President explained that rather than a failure to collect or
share intelligence, the failure on Christmas Day was a failure
to connect and understand the intelligence that we already had.
What steps are you going to take to make this a priority of TSA
to better coordinate and streamline data gathering and watch
lists and things like we have already talked about?
General Harding. Working cooperatively, Senator, with the
intelligence office within DHS, as well as the intelligence
community writ large, being an active and proactive member of
the intelligence community through the Department of Homeland
Security's INA shop, I think will help TSA be--receive more and
possibly better actionable intelligence.
The last point there is, as you know, Senator, TSA just
recently cleared about or it is moving in a direction of
clearing about 10,000 individuals in TSA to receive this
intelligence. It is no good if we are just getting it and
holding onto it at the headquarters. So we are pushing it
forward also, and I think that is part of that process.
Senator Klobuchar. OK. Something else that we talked about,
a particular TSA policy that impacts my State. My State has I
consider it one of the best airports in the country, and it is
a hub and very active airport. And there is this requirement
that checked luggage at appropriately cleared Canadian airport
facilities have to be rescreened before the transfer to a U.S.-
based connecting flight.
This requirement frequently causes delayed connections for
passengers arriving from Canada since their baggage must be
physically transported from the arrival aircraft to a baggage
screening facility, rescreened by TSA, and then retransported
to the connecting flight. And I know this is all being done for
good reasons, and obviously, it is a balance with security.
But it is my understanding that TSA has been working with
Canadian authorities for well over a year to reach an agreement
that would put in place new technologies and processes for
Canadian baggage screening that will meet U.S. security
standards.
And you have given me your commitment that you will work
with me to resolve this issue. Do you have any other comments
about that?
General Harding. I reaffirm my commitment, Senator.
Senator Klobuchar. OK. That is a very nice short answer,
very smart.
OK. Well, I just want to thank you for your work. You have
a big job in front of you. I view this as of the utmost
importance to our security, but I also think that there are
things that we can do where we can actually be more efficient
and be smarter about our resources, at the same time doing a
better job for security. And I hope you view it that way as
well.
General Harding. I do.
Senator Klobuchar. OK. Thank you.
I know that there will be questions that will be allowed
for the record in this hearing. Some of our colleagues couldn't
be here today and want to submit questions, and questions for
the record are due at 5 p.m. tomorrow.
With that, thank you very much, General Harding, and the
hearing is adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 10:26 a.m., the hearing was adjourned.]
A P P E N D I X
Prepared Statement of Hon. John Thune, U.S. Senator from South Dakota
General Harding, I appreciate your past military service and
willingness in serving as Administrator of the TSA.
Like a number of my colleagues, I have been concerned with the
Administration's long delay in filling the top position at TSA.
With your strong credentials when it comes to your background in
the Army and the intelligence community, I think that you would bring
an important perspective to TSA when it comes to strengthening security
for the traveling public.
There's no question that we face many challenges going forward when
it comes to addressing changing terrorist threats but I also believe
that one of the biggest challenges TSA faces is complacency from the
general public and a lack of understanding when it comes to screening
protocols.
Certainly after 9/11, there was a heightened understanding by the
public when it came to accepting the new security measures that were
instituted at commercial airports. I posed a similar question to Mr.
Southers when he appeared before this committee last year, but I would
be curious to know what you would do as head of the TSA to address
public complacency?