[House Hearing, 115 Congress] [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office] EXPANDING OPTIONS FOR EMPLOYERS AND WORKERS THROUGH EARN-AND-LEARN OPPORTUNITIES ======================================================================= HEARING BEFORE THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON HIGHER EDUCATION AND WORKFORCE DEVELOPMENT COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND THE WORKFORCE U.S. House of Representatives ONE HUNDRED FIFTEENTH CONGRESS FIRST SESSION __________ HEARING HELD IN WASHINGTON, DC, JULY 26, 2017 __________ Serial No. 115-25 __________ Printed for the use of the Committee on Education and the Workforce [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Available via the World Wide Web: www.gpo.gov/fdsys/browse/ committee.action?chamber=house&committee=education or Committee address: http://edworkforce.house.gov __________ U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE 26-299 PDF WASHINGTON : 2018 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Publishing Office, http://bookstore.gpo.gov. For more information, contact the GPO Customer Contact Center, U.S. Government Publishing Office. Phone 202-512-1800, or 866-512-1800 (toll-free). E-mail, [email protected]. COMMITTEE ON EDUCATION AND THE WORKFORCE VIRGINIA FOXX, North Carolina, Chairwoman Joe Wilson, South Carolina Robert C. ``Bobby'' Scott, Duncan Hunter, California Virginia David P. Roe, Tennessee Ranking Member Glenn ``GT'' Thompson, Pennsylvania Susan A. Davis, California Tim Walberg, Michigan Raul M. Grijalva, Arizona Brett Guthrie, Kentucky Joe Courtney, Connecticut Todd Rokita, Indiana Marcia L. Fudge, Ohio Lou Barletta, Pennsylvania Jared Polis, Colorado Luke Messer, Indiana Gregorio Kilili Camacho Sablan, Bradley Byrne, Alabama Northern Mariana Islands David Brat, Virginia Frederica S. Wilson, Florida Glenn Grothman, Wisconsin Suzanne Bonamici, Oregon Elise Stefanik, New York Mark Takano, California Rick W. Allen, Georgia Alma S. Adams, North Carolina Jason Lewis, Minnesota Mark DeSaulnier, California Francis Rooney, Florida Donald Norcross, New Jersey Paul Mitchell, Michigan Lisa Blunt Rochester, Delaware Tom Garrett, Jr., Virginia Raja Krishnamoorthi, Illinois Lloyd K. Smucker, Pennsylvania Carol Shea-Porter, New Hampshire A. Drew Ferguson, IV, Georgia Adriano Espaillat, New York Ron Estes, Kansas Karen Handel, Georgia Brandon Renz, Staff Director Denise Forte, Minority Staff Director ------ SUBCOMMITTEE ON HIGHER EDUCATION AND WORKFORCE DEVELOPMENT BRETT GUTHRIE, Kentucky, Chairman Glenn ``GT'' Thompson, Pennsylvania Susan A. Davis, California Lou Barletta, Pennsylvania Ranking Member Luke Messer, Indiana Joe Courtney, Connecticut Bradley Byrne, Alabama Alma S. Adams, North Carolina Glenn Grothman, Wisconsin Mark DeSaulnier, California Elise Stefanik, New York Raja Krishnamoorthi, Illinois Rick W. Allen, Georgia Jared Polis, Colorado Jason Lewis, Minnesota Gregorio Kilili Camacho Sablan, Paul Mitchell, Michigan Northern Mariana Islands Tom Garrett, Jr., Virginia Mark Takano, California Lloyd K. Smucker, Pennsylvania Lisa Blunt Rochester, Delaware Ron Estes, Kansas Adriano Espaillat, New York C O N T E N T S ---------- Page Hearing held on July 26, 2017.................................... 1 Statement of Members: Davis, Hon. Susan A., Ranking Member, Subcommittee on Higher Education and Workforce Development........................ 4 Prepared statement of.................................... 5 Guthrie, Hon. Brett, Chairman, Subcommittee on Higher Education and Workforce Development........................ 1 Prepared statement of.................................... 3 Statement of Witnesses: Bennett, Mr. Mike, Vice President, Cianbro, Pittsfield, Maine 7 Prepared statement of.................................... 10 Hogan, Mr. Rob, Vice President of Manufacturing and Material Distribution, Newport News Shipbuilding, Newport News, Virginia................................................... 23 Prepared statement of.................................... 25 Johnson Hughes, Ms. Stacey, State Chair, Kentucky Federation for Advanced Manufacturing Education (KYFAME), Russellville, Kentucky..................................... 35 Prepared statement of.................................... 38 Peglow, Mr. Robert, Student, Kentucky Federation for Advanced Manufacturing Education (KYFAME), Franklin Kentucky........ 19 Prepared statement of.................................... 21 Additional Submissions: Courtney, Hon. Joe, a Representative in Congress from the State of Connecticut: Letter dated July 25, 2017 from Collins & Jewell Company. 52 Slide: USA Today......................................... 89 Photograph of Rep. William Fitzgerald.................... 90 Mrs. Davis: Statement for the record from National Electrical Contractors Association (NECA)......................... 71 Construction Apprenticeship.............................. 75 Mr. Peglow: KYFAME................................................... 91 Questions submitted for the record by: Barletta, Hon. Lou, a Representative in Congress from the State of Pennsylvania.................................. 93 Mrs. Davis............................................... 97 Responses to questions submitted for the record: Mr. Barletta............................................. 95 Mrs. Davis............................................... 97 EXPANDING OPTIONS FOR EMPLOYERS AND WORKERS THROUGH EARN-AND-LEARN OPPORTUNITIES ---------- Wednesday, July 26, 2017 House of Representatives, Subcommittee on Higher Education and Workforce Development Committee on Education and the Workforce Washington, D.C. ---------- The subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 10:07 a.m., in Room 2175, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Brett Guthrie [chairman of the subcommittee] presiding. Present: Representatives Guthrie, Messer, Byrne, Grothman, Stefanik, Allen, Lewis, Mitchell, Smucker, Estes, Davis, Courtney, Adams, DeSaulnier, Krishnamoorthi, Polis, Takano, and Espaillat. Also Present: Representative Foxx, Scott, and Norcross. Staff Present: Caitlin Burke, Legislative Assistant; Courtney Butcher, Director of Member Services and Coalitions; Michael Comer, Press Secretary; Amy Raaf Jones, Director of Education and Human Resources Policy; Nancy Locke, Chief Clerk; James Mullen, Director of Information Technology; Krisann Pearce, General Counsel; Alexandra Pena, Staff Assistant; James Redstone, Professional Staff Member; Mandy Schaumburg, Education Deputy Director and Senior Counsel; Michael Woeste, Press Secretary; Tylease Alli, Minority Clerk/Intern and Fellow Coordinator; Austin Barbera, Minority Press Assistant; Denise Forte, Minority Staff Director; Mishawn Freeman, Minority Staff Assistant; Eunice Ikene, Minority Labor Policy Advisor; Richard Miller, Minority Senior Labor Policy Advisor; Udochi Onwubiko, Minority Labor Policy Counsel; Alexander Payne, Minority Education Policy Advisor; Veronique Pluviose, Minority General Counsel; and Erin Robinson, Minority Policy Fellow. Chairman Guthrie. We will bring the committee to order. A quorum being present, the Subcommittee on Higher Education and Workforce Development will come to order. Good morning and welcome to today's subcommittee hearing. I would like to thank our panel of witnesses and our members for joining today's important discussion on apprenticeships, an opportunity for us to grow our Nation's workforce. I would especially like to welcome Ms. Stacey Hughes, a constituent of mine who lives not even a mile away, who serves as the State chair of the Kentucky Federation for Advanced Manufacturing Education, or Kentucky FAME; and Mr. Robert, or Robbie Peglow, a student, a Kentucky student, participating in Kentucky FAME. I look forward to hearing from you about how Kentucky is working to have young people get the skills they need to obtain good-paying jobs. Every day, hardworking Americans search for a good-paying job that will lead them to a successful career. Many Americans find a pathway to a good-paying job through apprenticeship programs that provide real earn-and-learn opportunities that often turn into careers. For workers, apprenticeships are a chance to prepare for today's high-skilled, in-demand jobs alongside long-time industry professionals. In fact, based on the National Household Education Survey, an estimated 2.1 million Americans participated in apprenticeships last year. Employers also see apprenticeships as an outlet to invest in work-based learning programs that attract and help to retain highly qualified employees. And many have seen the results in the form of increased productivity and greater innovation. Our hearing today will explore how apprenticeship-style programs promote workforce development while also looking at Federal programs that are in need of improvement. One aspect of apprenticeships where this committee sees room for improvement in order to help workers and employers is registered apprenticeships. Currently, registered apprenticeships are programs officially registered with the Department of Labor's Office of Apprenticeship or State office of apprenticeships. The Department of Labor has issued regulations requiring that registered apprenticeships meet 26 specific requirements relating to program design. DOL regulations also require that these programs adhere to equal employment opportunity regulations that are specific to apprenticeships. While the Department continues to regulate the registered apprenticeship program, workers and businesses are not convinced this program is something that is best for workforce development. In 2016, only 206,000 individuals nationwide became apprentices through the Registered Apprenticeship Program. Further, less than half of the earn-and-learn programs choose to register their programs with the Department of Labor. The Registered Apprenticeship Program is yet another one-size-fits- all approach that works better for Washington than it does for businesses and students who wish to use apprenticeships as a way to grow our workforce. Rather than doubling down on the failed attempts of previous administrations to expand the registered apprenticeship program, this committee is looking for a better way to build on the successful efforts businesses have found to grow their own apprenticeship programs outside of the registered apprenticeship program. It should be noted that any effort to promote apprenticeship opportunities needs to provide employees and job creators with the flexibility to innovative and develop high- quality earn-and-learn programs without the burdens of Washington overreach. This has been the approach of the committee in our many efforts to strengthen workforce development this Congress and will continue to be our approach for the future. Today's hearing is part of the House Committee on Education and the Workforce's ongoing efforts to strengthen our workforce for the future, and it is even more important in the realm of apprenticeships now that the White House has taken note of the true success apprenticeship programs are having for workers and employers alike. I look forward to hearing from our witnesses today on how they have been able to create their own innovative apprenticeship programs and how we can strengthen these efforts to help close the skills gap that exists in our country. I now yield to the subcommittee's ranking member, Susan Davis, for her opening remarks. [The statement of Chairman Guthrie follows:] Prepared Statement of Hon. Brett Guthrie, Chairman, Subcommittee on Higher Education and Workforce Development Good morning, and welcome to today's subcommittee hearing. I'd like to thank our panel of witnesses and our members for joining today's important discussion on apprenticeships and opportunities for us to grow our nation's workforce. I'd especially like to welcome Ms. Stacey Hughes, a constituent of mine who serves as the state chair of the Kentucky Federation for Advanced Manufacturing Education, or KYFAME, and Mr. Robert Peglow, a Kentucky student participating in KYFAME. I look forward to hearing from you about how Kentucky is working to help young people get the skills they need to obtain good-paying jobs. Every day hardworking Americans search for a good-paying job that will lead them to a successful career. Many Americans find a pathway to a good-paying job through apprenticeship programs that provide real earn-and-learn opportunities that often turn into careers. For workers, apprenticeships are a chance to prepare for today's high-skilled, in-demand jobs alongside long-time industry professionals. In fact, based on the National Household Education Survey, an estimated 2.1 million Americans participated in apprenticeships last year. Employers also see apprenticeships as an outlet to invest in work- based learning programs that attract and help to retain highly qualified employees, and many have seen the results in the form of increased productivity and greater innovation. Our hearing today will explore how apprenticeship-style programs promote workforce development, while also looking at federal programs that are in need of improvement. One aspect of apprenticeships where this committee sees room for improvement in order to help workers and employers is ``registered'' apprenticeships. Currently, registered apprenticeships are programs officially ``registered'' with the Department of Labor's Office of Apprenticeship (OA) or a state office of apprenticeship. The Department of Labor has issued regulations requiring that registered apprenticeships meet twenty-six specific requirements relating to program design. DOL regulations also require that these programs adhere to equal employment opportunity regulations that are specific to apprenticeships. While the department continues to regulate the registered apprenticeship program, workers and businesses are not convinced this program is something that is best for workforce development. In 2016, only 206,000 individuals nationwide became apprentices through the registered apprenticeship program. Further, less than half of earn-and-learn programs choose to register their programs with the Department of Labor. The registered apprenticeship program is yet another one-size-fits- all approach that works better for Washington than it does for businesses and students who wish to use apprenticeships as a way to grow our workforce. Rather than doubling down on the failed attempts of previous administrations to expand the registered apprenticeship program, this committee is looking for a better way to build on the successful efforts businesses have found to grow their own apprenticeship programs outside of the registered apprenticeships program. It should be noted that any effort to promote apprenticeship opportunities needs to provide employees and job creators with the flexibility to innovate and develop high quality earn-and-learn programs without the burdens of Washington overreach. This has been the approach of the committee in our many efforts to strengthen workforce development this Congress, and it will continue to be our approach for the future. Today's hearing is part of the House Committee on Education and the Workforce's ongoing efforts to strengthen our workforce for the future, and it is even more important in the realm of apprenticeships now that the White House has taken note of the true success apprenticeship programs are having for workers and employers alike. I look forward to hearing from our witnesses today on how they have been able to create their own innovative apprenticeship programs, and how we can strengthen these efforts to help close the skills gap that exists in our country. ______ Mrs. Davis. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I am very pleased that we are here today to discuss successful earn-and-learn programs. As this committee looks to help build a highly skilled workforce and close the skills gap that we so often hear about, we must look at effective models to expand. We know that these models are not new, and in fact, apprenticeships have been training students for quality high-paying jobs for decades. Programs like The Apprentice School, which we will hear from today, integrate on-the-job training with related classroom instruction, and they also work with local community colleges to build and develop curriculum that allows apprenticeships to have stackable, transferable credentials and allows them to transition into other higher education pathways. These programs also work to educate teachers, families, and young people about the benefits of registered apprenticeships. I am interested in hearing how we can build on the successes of these programs to make registered apprenticeships, apprenticeships more exciting for young people. We often hear from students that they are looking for more flexible education options to meet their busy schedules, and we need to answer this call and make quality apprenticeships a viable option for all students. Apprenticeships must be prestigious enough to attract students who seek the most challenging and aspirational programs. Parents want to know that their children are receiving a quality education that will yield a widely recognized credential. As we will hear today, apprenticeships are not the only successful earn-and-learn model. However, if taxpayers are going to invest in these important programs, there must be accountability for students and their families. I look forward to working with my colleagues on this committee to expand upon the registration process for apprenticeships while ensuring that protections remain in place for students. We will want to make sure that we don't just dismantle programs. What we need to be doing is be sure that the protections are there, because, otherwise, I think we really do a disservice to our students and what their expectations are. I also believe that we can make apprenticeships more appealing by expanding them beyond the traditional trades. We would like to see companies build upon the phenomenal work that the building trades have done to open up apprenticeships in new industries. Just this year, Amazon announced it was starting a registered apprenticeship program for veterans in its IT cloud computing space. And Microsoft has recently announced one as well. This, I believe, is a key to how we expand apprenticeships in the U.S. It has to work for those businesses. By recognizing and rewarding companies who develop successful programs, we can incentivize more industries to expand apprenticeships across the country. And we know that we have to engage with all of our partners in this effort, whether it is learning from the important work that unions have done in this space, asking businesses to continue engaging with the Department of Labor's Office of Apprenticeships, or looking to schools and nonprofit organizations to develop meaningful curriculum for apprentices. We know that this must be a collaborative process. Last week, in a disappointing maneuver, the Labor, Health and Human Services bill eliminated Federal dollars for apprenticeship programs and called on the authorizers to pass an authorization bill. These dollars in the past were used to promote diversity and support intermediaries so that small businesses can benefit from apprenticeships. So, if that is the case, let's give the appropriators clarity in the form of an authorization. I know that we have a number of Members, some in this committee and some having been on the committee, who have been developing important pieces of legislation. Let's take a look at that and let's perhaps use that as a jumping off point for doing an authorization. I know, through my conversations with members of this committee, that apprenticeships have great support, and I am delighted to see that. I hope we can come together in a bipartisan manner to promote registered apprenticeship programs. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. [The statement of Mrs. Davis follows:] Prepared Statement of Hon. Susan A. Davis, Ranking Member, Subcommittee on Higher Education and Workforce Development I am thrilled that we are here today to discuss successful earn- and-learn programs. As this Committee looks to help build a highly skilled workforce and close the skills gap that we so often hear about, we must look at effective models to expand. We know that these models are not new. In fact, registered apprenticeships have been training students for quality, high-paying jobs for decades. Programs like The Apprentice School, which we'll hear from today, integrate on-the-job training with related classroom instruction. They also work with local community colleges to build and develop curriculum that allows apprentices to have stackable, transferable credentials and allow them to transition into other higher education pathways. These programs also work to educate teachers, families and young people about the benefits of registered apprenticeships. I am interested in hearing how we can build on the successes of these programs to make registered apprenticeships more exciting for young people. We often hear from students that they're looking for more flexible education options to meet their busy schedules. We need to answer this call and make quality apprenticeships a viable option for all students. Apprenticeships must be prestigious enough to attract students who seek the most challenging and aspirational programs. Parents want to know that their children are receiving a quality education that will yield a widely recognized credential. As we'll hear today, apprenticeships are not the only successful earn and learn model. However, if taxpayers are going to invest in these important programs, there must be accountability for students and their families. I look forward to working with my colleagues on this committee to expand upon the registration process for apprenticeships, while ensuring that protections remain in place for students. If our only goal is to dismantle protections for students, then we are doing them a great disservice. I also believe that we can make apprenticeships more appealing by expanding them beyond the traditional trades. We'd like to see companies build upon the phenomenal work that the building trades have done to open up apprenticeships in new industries. Just this year Amazon announced it was starting a registered apprenticeship program for veterans in its IT cloud computing space. And Microsoft has recently announced one as well. This, I believe, is the key to how we expand apprenticeships in the US. By recognizing and rewarding companies who develop successful programs, we can incentivize more industries to expand apprenticeships across the country. And we know that we have to engage with all of our partners in this effort. Whether it is learning from the important work that unions have done in this space, asking businesses to continue engaging with the Department of Labor's Office of Apprenticeships, or looking to schools and nonprofit organizations to develop meaningful curriculum for apprentices, we know that this must be a collaborative process. Last week, in a disappointing maneuver, the Labor, Health and Human Services bill eliminated federal dollars for apprenticeship programs and called on the authorizers to pass an authorization bill. These dollars in the past were used to promote diversity and support intermediaries so that small businesses can benefit from apprenticeships. If that's the case, let's give the appropriators clarity in the form of an authorization. I know that Ranking Member Scott, myself, and most of the Democrats on this committee support Rep. Pocan's LEARNs act and are willing to have a markup on it tomorrow, if the Chair would schedule it. I know through my conversations with Members of this Committee that apprenticeships have great support. I hope we can come together in a bipartisan manner to promote registered apprenticeship programs. ______ Chairman Guthrie. Thank you for yielding back, and I do believe we can move forward in a good manner. I appreciate that. Pursuant to committee rule 7(c), all members will be permitted to submit written statements to be included in the permanent hearing record. And, without objection, the hearing record will remain open for 14 days to allow such statements and other extraneous material referenced during the hearing to be submitted for the official hearing record. I will now introduce our witnesses for this morning's hearings. Mr. Mike Bennett is the vice president of Cianbro Companies and is testifying on behalf of the Associated Builders and Contractors. Mr. Robbie Peglow is an apprenticeship student testifying on behalf of Kentucky Federation for Advanced Manufacturing Education or Kentucky FAME. I will now recognize Ranking Member Scott to introduce our next witness. Mr. Scott. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Chairman, our next witness is Bob Hogan, who is Vice President of Manufacturing and Material Distribution from Newport News Shipbuilding. He is on the Board of Directors of the Commonwealth Center for Advanced Manufacturing and the Virginia Manufacturing Association, where he recently served as chairman. He is active in the American Welding Society, Society for Manufacturing Engineers, and the Association for Manufacturing Excellence. He knows about apprenticeship programs because he is, in fact, a graduate of the Newport News Shipbuilding Apprentice School, and he will describe the school, I am sure, as the best in the Nation. It is really the gold standard for apprenticeship programs. So we welcome him here and thank you for the opportunity to introduce him. Chairman Guthrie. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Ranking member. And, also, now I would like to introduce Ms. Stacey Johnson Hughes as the State chair of Kentucky Federation for Advanced Manufacturing Education, a good friend and a neighbor. We appreciate you being here. And, also, her employer is one of our great local employers, which is Logan Aluminum. So we appreciate that. I will now ask the witnesses to raise your right hands. [Witnesses sworn.] Chairman Guthrie. Let the record reflect the witnesses answered in the affirmative. Before I recognize you to provide you for your testimony, let me briefly explain the lighting system. Each of you will have 5 minutes to present your testimony. When you begin, the light in front of you will turn green. When 1 minute is left, the light will turn yellow. When your time is expired, the light will turn red. At that point, I will ask that you wrap up your remarks as best as you're able. Members will each have 5 minutes to ask you questions following your opening statements, and I will recognize the witnesses in order. And, first, Mr. Bennett, you're recognized for 5 minutes for your opening statement. STATEMENT OF MIKE BENNETT, VICE PRESIDENT, CIANBRO, PITTSFIELD, MAINE Mr. Bennett. Good morning, Chairman Guthrie, Ranking Member Davis, Chairwoman Foxx, and members of the Subcommittee on Higher Education and Workforce Development. Let me begin by thanking each of you for this opportunity to testify before you today on how to expand opportunities for Americans through workforce development and the earn-and-learn model. Again, my name is Michael Bennett. I am the vice president of the Cianbro Companies based out of Pittsfield, Maine. I have been with the organization for 21 years, and today I'm here to testify on behalf of Associated Builders and Contractors. As an employee/owner of Cianbro, I'm pleased to share with you that Cianbro is one of the United States' largest, most diversified, open shop, 100 percent employee-owned, construction companies. We operate in 41 States, and we employ more than 4,000 team members, managing and self-performing heavy civil, structural, mechanical, electrical, steel fabrication and coating work. We are recognized nationally in pursuing health and wellness in the workplace with such distinctions as the healthiest and safest company in America, and that was awarded by the American College of Occupational and Environmental Medicine. And while I would love to continue to talk about the company that I'm so proud of during this testimony this morning, that's really not why I'm here. I'm here to talk about the skills gap and the workforce shortage or, on a more macro level, developing the next generation of skilled workers, craft professionals, in a way that promotes safety, continual learning, and career development. Right now, in our industry, there are approximately 500,000 skilled construction jobs available with modest economic growth and the potential of a $1 trillion infrastructure bill, that number could balloon to 1 million by 2020, which is less than 3 years away. To fill these jobs, we must have safe and efficient workers. To do this, we must have flexibility. Our clients are sophisticated. Our workforce development models must evolve to meet these demands. At Associated Builders and Contractors, as with Cianbro, we support all workforce programs that develop people and help them reach their potential, whether they're defined by the government or driven by industry. And we call this an all-of- the-above approach to educating the construction professionals. I have listed some improvements in my written testimony, but I wanted to share a few of those verbally with you today as we develop the strategy it needs to include creating multiple pathways for apprenticeships by acknowledging industry- recognized programs as we do registered apprenticeship programs. We need to establish reciprocity across Federal and State apprenticeship councils. We need to allow for the utilization of nationally recognized portable industry credentialing programs with third-party oversight. The programs must be industry- and market-driven and flexible in structure, scheduling, and duration to address the changes with an industry's means, methods, and technology. Programs should be competency-based, allowing those who quickly master a skill to progress quicker than those who may require more time. And we need to allow for targeted programs to be developed. Competencies evolve quickly. With the changing business demands, an employee should be able to build those targeted competencies for those demand positions to meet our clients' needs. Why does Cianbro value industry-recognized programs? Because they work. Industry-recognized programs come in all shapes and sizes, and that is the beauty of them. They provide the highest level of flexibility that benefits the worker, their company, and their client. Industry-recognized programs give the entire American public an opportunity to learn a skill, develop themselves, and build their careers. I'm not here today to criticize registered apprenticeship programs; rather, I'm here to urge you as lawmakers to support our industry by encouraging an all-of-the-above approach in filling the skills gap. This is why the construction industry is so excited about President Trump's executive order to expand on the apprenticeship opportunities for all Americans. By encouraging industry-recognized programs and embracing an all- of-the-above approach to workforce development, the President's executive order shows a commitment to innovation and embracing the methods that work. And, in closing, I would like to leave you with these sentiments: Every day, I am thankful for the skilled craft professionals who provide me with the creature comforts we all enjoy: a warm and dry home, power, safe roads, reliable transportation. As a society, we highly value our doctors, our lawyers, our dentists, but sometimes we take for granted our other professionals. Our country requires and deserves to have the best of the best at all levels of these professions. So, as we work together to enhance the quality and quantity of our skilled vocations in this country, I offer you ABC's support in helping to enhance our existing registered apprenticeship program and, more importantly, structure a flexible, industry- recognized, nonregistered model that warrants the same level of recognition and respect that our current registered programs provide. I would like to thank the subcommittee for holding today's hearing on this important subject. Mr. Chairman, this concludes my formal remarks. I'm prepared to answer any questions that you or the other members of the committee may have. [The statement of Mr. Bennett follows:] [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Chairman Guthrie. Thank you, Mr. Bennett, for your testimony. Mr. Peglow, you're now recognized for 5 minutes for your statement. STATEMENT OF ROBERT PEGLOW, STUDENT, KENTUCKY FEDERATION FOR ADVANCED MANUFACTURING EDUCATION (KYFAME), FRANKLIN, KENTUCKY Mr. Peglow. Hi. My name is the Robert Peglow, and my personal safety commitment is to always wear my safety glasses when necessary. I am an apprentice sponsored by Kobe Aluminum in Bowling Green, Kentucky. The KYFAME program was a once in a lifetime opportunity for me. It was also a second chance. My story begins in 2014 when I graduated from high school. I didn't know what I wanted to do. The only thing I knew was that I was going to college. I didn't like school, and I never have. I believe it is necessary and a great tool to obtain any career you would like, but it wasn't really for me. I went to college for 1 year after high school and didn't do so well. I wasn't focused or dedicated as much as I should have been, and I basically failed out. I took a year off to rethink what I really want to do and get my head in the right place. In the spring of 2016, I decided I was ready to go back to college. I still didn't know for what, but I knew I needed to. I also knew I was ready. I had grown up and matured. I now had a fiancee to think about, instead of just myself. I discovered the KYFAME program through a friend of mine and decided I would explore the option. I talked with some of the people that are associated with the program and decided this is for me; this is the opportunity I have been searching for. I started the program in the fall of 2016. I immediately discovered this wasn't an ordinary technical program. Most programs are 2-year programs where you earn a degree and then go to work in your field of study. In the KYFAME program, I was able to work 3 days a week as well as go to school the other 2 days. I have learned more than I could have possibly imagined both in work and school. The reason why this program works so well is that everyone involved is fully dedicated, from the sponsoring companies to the professors and everyone in between. After being in the program for a year, I can see that their sole purpose is to make this program succeed. The professors give out their personal emails and cell phone numbers at the beginning of class and tell us to call or email any time if we need anything, and they mean it. They are dedicated to our success, and it shows. I have stayed after hours on multiple occasions with professors to study or ask questions. I am greeted with a smile every time and never rushed in our conversations. There are many reasons this program has been such a blessing to me. I have had the opportunity to go to surrounding high schools and speak to students interested in the program. I have been able to develop my skills in numerous ways beyond my belief. I attended the national AMT conference and presented there as well. Coming into the program, I would not have considered myself a very good public speaker, nor did I like doing it. Now I am the first to volunteer for presentations and am happy to do them. One of the biggest benefits I have discovered is the work aspect of the program. We get to work alongside experienced technicians every day at work. We also have an experienced maintenance adviser to help develop our skills and answer any questions we have. As students, we all go through the same curriculum together. There have been a few nights a group of us have met together and worked on projects or studied. This has been extremely helpful because we all have our own strengths and weaknesses. At the beginning of my statement, I gave my personal safety commitment. The number one thing we have been taught is our safety. We are expected to share our safety commitment at the beginning of conversations or presentations. This shows how committed we are in everything that we do. It is also just one of the many things I have learned along this journey. Without this KYFAME, I can say I would not be where I am today. I found this program at a low point in my life, and it has helped me change my -- turn my path around. I am now at a high point in my short life, and I can truly say it is because of KYFAME. Speaking as a student from a KYFAME chapter, I appreciate this committee's work on apprenticeship programs. I'm happy to answer any questions you may have. Thank you again for your time. [The statement of Mr. Peglow follows:] [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Chairman Guthrie. Thank you for your testimony. Your story and stories like yours make us all excited on both sides, and you are a very good public speaker, so congratulations on that. I now recognize Mr. Hogan for 5 minutes for his opening statement. STATEMENT OF ROB HOGAN, VICE PRESIDENT OF MANUFACTURING AND MATERIAL DISTRIBUTION, NEWPORT NEWS SHIPBUILDING, NEWPORT NEWS, VIRGINIA Mr. Hogan. Good morning and thank you, Chairman Guthrie, Ranking Member Davis, and distinguished members on the Subcommittee of Higher Education and Workforce Development. As kindly introduced by Mr. Scott, my name is Rob Hogan, and I'm the vice president of manufacturing and material logistics at Newport News Shipbuilding, which is a division of Huntington Ingalls Industries, based in Newport News, Virginia. And I'm honored to represent Newport News Shipbuilding in today's discussion and want to thank the subcommittee for this invitation. Huntington Ingalls Industries is an American Fortune 500 company with $7 billion in annual revenues and work backlog of approximately $20 billion. With facilities located in Virginia, Mississippi, California, Florida, Texas, and Colorado, we employ approximately 37,000 workers. Among them are more than 15,000 craftsmen and -women, 5,000 engineers, 1,600 of whom have advanced degrees, and we employ approximately 5,000 veterans. At Newport News Shipbuilding, we have been in business for 131 years, and many of our employers are third-, fourth-, and even fifth-generation shipbuilders. Nearly 1,000 of our employers are what's called master shipbuilders. These are employees with 40 or more years of continuous service and a group of which I'm proud to be included. Our shipbuilders build the most advanced ships in the world for the United States Navy using our expertise in nuclear propulsion, naval design, and manufacturing. We are the sole designer and builder and refueler of nuclear-powered aircraft carriers and one of two providers of nuclear-powered submarines. In my role, I'm responsible for all shipyard manufactured material, material warehousing, and material distribution for all of our Navy and commercial programs, and while our facilities and manufacturing processes are critical, I will tell you it is our shipbuilders who really make us successful. We employ 20,000 skilled craftsmen and -women and support personnel who are building our Nation's nuclear Navy. It is our responsibility and our top priority to train our shipbuilders and continuously develop their skills. We invest heavily in workforce development, spending over $80 million annually in various types of training. And I'll talk more in detail about our premier training program, The Apprentice School, in just a moment, but I would like to first talk about what we're doing to attract and hire our Nation's next generation of shipbuilders. Since we began building ships more than a century ago, two- dimensional paper drawings have been the primary method for conveying design data to our shipbuilders. Today, we are migrating to an integrated digital enterprise to do away with the need for traditional drawings, and we're leveraging technology to transform how we build ships. Recognizing that this digital transformation will touch all areas of our business, we are coordinating with community colleges and university partners to incorporate digital shipbuilding techniques into many fields of study, including engineering, design, IT, and trades training. We are also actively involved with workforce investment boards, school districts, and local community colleges in several other ways. We support a Career Pathways program in concert with public schools throughout Hampton Roads where employees mentor students and provide opportunities to experience future careers. Another program we lead is called Girls with Engineering Minds in Shipbuilding, or GEMS, where our female engineers serve as mentors to middle school girls, encouraging them to pursue engineering studies in high school and beyond. We also offer local public school STEM educators and professional counselors the opportunity to take part in a 2-week paid internship to learn about shipbuilding and how the STEM concepts they teach are used in real workplace applications. We participate in industry events and nationwide diversity conferences. We recruit onsite during the conferences, and doing this has helped us diversify our workforce. But another way we recruit and attract and train our future shipbuilders and future leaders is through our world-class apprentice school. For 98 years, the school has been a great example of an alternative choice to traditional college experience and has provided tremendous results for both students and our company. Our apprentices are paid a salary and receive full benefits on day one, all while earning college credits and learning a trade in 19 shipbuilding disciplines and 8 advanced programs. Our graduates represent about 13 percent of our current workforce and more than 50 percent of our production management team. And although not obligated to stay with our company, more than 70 percent of our graduates are still with us after 15 years of graduation. Apprentice graduates are found at all levels of the organization and all levels of management. Currently, I am one of three senior leaders in the company who are graduates of The Apprentice School. The school has grown in popularity and become extremely competitive. On average, we receive more than 2,800 applications a year for 240 openings. We currently have 750 students enrolled, and we believe these are our future leaders. In closing, these are just a few examples of how we are recruiting and retaining a skilled workforce capable of operating and keeping pace with today's rapidly evolving technologies. Training and professional development are not only vital for our success but are essential tactics in attracting and retaining millennial workers who demand ongoing learning and new opportunities. Thank you for the opportunity today, and I look forward to any questions you may have. [The statement of Mr. Hogan follows:] [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Chairman Guthrie. Thank you for your testimony, as well. Ms. Hughes, you're now recognized for 5 minutes for your opening statement. STATEMENT OF STACEY JOHNSON HUGHES, STATE CHAIR, KENTUCKY FEDERATION FOR ADVANCED MANUFACTURING EDUCATION (KYFAME), RUSSELLVILLE, KENTUCKY Ms. Hughes. Thank you, Chairman Guthrie, Ranking Member Davis, and all the members of the House Education and Workforce Subcommittee on Higher Education and Workforce Development. I am honored to have the opportunity to be here. My name is Stacey Hughes, and I currently serve as the State chairperson for Kentucky FAME, the Kentucky Federation for Advanced Manufacturing Education. In addition to Kentucky FAME, since 2008, I have had the honor of leading a team of HR professionals in the areas of employee relations, legal, benefits, medical wellness, and education and development as Logan Aluminum's HR manager. Logan Aluminum, located in Russellville, Kentucky, is one of the largest aluminum rolling mills in North America, if not the largest. It has grown to more than to four times its initial capacity and provides over 40 percent of North America's beverage can sheet production. Today, Logan Aluminum employs over 1,200 team members, produces 2 billion pounds per year, and is in the middle of a half a billion dollar expansion, which will add automotive capacity. Over the last 30 years, Logan Aluminum's education department has managed a successful maintenance apprentice program. This apprentice program has over 175 graduates, and 58 percent of our current engineering and maintenance leadership are graduates of this program. In 2014, Logan Aluminum became a member of Kentucky FAME and soon transitioned our thriving program to FAME's advanced manufacturing technician earn-and-learn apprenticeship program. Logan Aluminum entrusted our existing program due to our belief in Kentucky FAME's vision and mission. So what is Kentucky FAME, and why would Logan Aluminum and over 200 Kentucky manufacturers join this effort? Kentucky FAME is an industry- led public and private partnership dedicated to implementing world-class models for developing manufacturing talent. FAME's vision is to transform Kentucky's manufacturing workforce to ensure the economic success of our companies and our Commonwealth. Kentucky FAME is an active employer-led partnership that achieves its mission and vision through a variety of core functions. In 10 regional chapters, along with the education and economic development partners, FAME identifies critical needs skills in manufacturing, creates market-driven career paths, standardizes technical education curriculum and program delivery, provides meaningful work experience concurrent to a student's educational experience, markets and promotes manufacturing careers, and recruits manufacturing's next generation of employees through student sponsorship. Kentucky FAME is not a new organization. With the leadership of our founding member, Toyota Manufacturing, Kentucky FAME launched in 2009 with nine manufacturers in central Kentucky. This initial group collaborated with their local technical college to develop a new program to meet the growing need for multiskilled maintenance technicians. The Advanced Manufacturing Technician Program, known as AMT, is a 2-year associate's degree that incorporates technical skills, personal behavior, soft skills, manufacturing core exercises, and work experience. Each AMT student attends class 2 days a week and then works in their sponsoring company for 3 days a week. Since 2009, FAME has grown exponentially. Today, over 225 students have graduated from AMT and over 95 percent currently work full time with the employers that sponsor them. Most AMT graduates earn an average of $45,000 per year when they enter full time, and they have little to no student debt. AMT graduation rates exceed current trends with a graduation rate of 89 percent. This compares to 12.8 or 49.4 percent with other associate's and bachelor's degree programs respectively. In the fall semester of this year, 650 first- and second- year students will be enrolled in Kentucky FAME-endorsed programs. As previously mentioned, employers' numbers have increased as well. We have 10 regional chapters. In addition to the AMT program, we endorse and sponsor students enrolled in other manufacturing career pathways, such as entry-level production, tool and die, as well as manufacturing-focused engineering and business bachelor's degree programs. Kentucky employers also invited almost 100 high school teachers into their facilities this summer for paid externships. Furthermore, other business sectors, such as healthcare, finance, and IT, have expressed interest in duplicating the FAME model to build apprenticeships in their trade. The success of Kentucky FAME has caused it to spread to other States, such as Texas, Missouri, Tennessee, Mississippi, and Alabama. FAME has received numerous awards and recognition from entities such as the National Career Pathways Network, the German American Chamber of Commerce, and the National Association of Manufacturing. In closing, the benefits of KYFAME to employers and educators and students are numerous. FAME helps companies develop curriculum programs to grow their current and future talent base. The partnership between employers and educators ensures a high standard of industry quality. Because of company collaboration, companies both large and small can participate. FAME's largest employer has over 9,000 employees, and its smallest has 25. Students earn technical, practical, and high-demand education that leads to a promising career with little to no student debt. Speaking on behalf of Kentucky FAME, I appreciate your committee's work on this important issue. A skilled and ready workforce is critical to the growth of my company, my State, and our Nation. Kentucky FAME believes we have created a proven apprenticeship model to increase the quality of our workforce, and I'm proud to share it with you today. Kentucky FAME supports the spirit of the Presidential executive order expanding apprenticeships in America and respectfully requests this subcommittee to introduce legislation to promote employer-led programs such as Kentucky FAME. I'm happy to answer any questions you may have. Thank you. [The statement of Ms. Hughes follows:] [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Chairman Guthrie. Thank you for your testimony. We'll now move into a round of questions, and I will recognize Chairwoman Foxx for 5 minutes for the purpose of asking questions. Ms. Foxx. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. And I want to thank our witnesses for being here. This is a very hot topic all over the country these days, and I'm very pleased that we have invited you all to come in and speak. Mr. Bennett, I agree with your testimony that President Trump's executive order is an important first step toward increasing apprenticeship opportunities. Our workforce development programs are successful only if they can work at the speed of business, not the speed of government. Given the construction industry makes up the majority of registered apprenticeships, you're uniquely qualified to speak to the strengths and limitations of the current registration process, and you have done a pretty good job of explaining some of that. What changes should we consider if we want to increase business participation in the program? Mr. Bennett. Thank you. That's a great question. I think, to begin with, what you can do is make sure that business and industry is heard and represented on a regular basis. The industry, like you've heard here from the rest of the panel, is so dynamic and changing so quickly -- our society is changing so quickly with technologies and just the means and the method, so our ability to stay not only on top of but try to anticipate where it is going is very important. So keeping those open lines of communication are very important to how we progress forward. Ms. Foxx. Great. Because we have such a limited time, I'm going to ask you later if you would give us some other specific recommendations on the industry-recognized process, but I want to make sure I have a little time to ask some other questions, but we'll come back to that. Mr. Peglow, family is incredibly important, and I don't think we here in Washington talk enough about how important families are in inspiring people to improve themselves. In your testimony, you mentioned how getting engaged to your fiancee changed how you think about things. Why was getting engaged important to your decision to go back to school? Mr. Peglow. That's a great question. Thank you. When I graduated high school, I was by myself, and that's all I had to think about was myself, so I really didn't think about family out of college or what kind of career I needed to support myself in the future. And when I met my now wife, I had to think about things in a different aspect. It wasn't just myself; it was going to be me and her. Eventually, we're going to want to buy a house, start a family, so I had to think on a larger scale instead of just myself. Ms. Foxx. Thank you very much. Ms. Hughes, I have heard from a number of employers that they cannot rely on the certificate of completion from a registered apprenticeship program as a guarantee of program quality. Given Logan Aluminum's long success with its own apprenticeship program, what guarantee did you have that Kentucky FAME's program quality would meet Logan Aluminum's standards? Ms. Hughes. Well, first, because we had a very wonderful partnership with our local technical college and with Kentucky FAME chapters and Kentucky FAME itself, we actually sit down and go over the curriculum together to make sure that it fits our needs. So we were very pleased with that. It actually mirrored the program that we already had, except it was actually a better program because it was the cohort program where our students didn't have to go to several schools in Bowling Green. They are actually located at a campus in Franklin, Kentucky, and they are together. Just like Robbie said, they work together, and we found that to be very helpful to the program. So we were very pleased with the classes. We know they're taught by the same professors that we had used in our other program previously, and the classes fit our needs. And that's the great flexibility about Kentucky FAME, is that we do have that relationship and can sit down with the school and make changes if our technology changes or things need to be added to a class. Ms. Foxx. Thank you. Mr. Bennett, again, I will follow up with you on some very specific recommendations for the proposed industry-recognized process and ask for that later. And I did want to make one comment to Mr. Hogan. I'm running out of time, but I would like to follow up with you, too, because I was a little surprised at the very low percentage of people who are graduates of your registered apprenticeship program who are working in your own business or in the shipbuilding. So I would like to follow up on that with you because I would have thought that you would be hiring a larger percentage, but there probably is a good explanation for that, and I'll follow up with you on it. Thank you all again very much. It has been a wonderful hearing. Chairman Guthrie. Thank the gentlewoman for yielding back. I now recognize the ranking member of the full committee, Mr. Scott, 5 minutes for questions. Mr. Scott. Thank you. Mr. Hogan, did you want to respond to that? Because I thought it was just the opposite. You have a lot of people presently employed by the shipyard that went through The Apprentice School. Can you go through those numbers again? Mr. Hogan. Certainly, and that's why, in the follow-up, I was going to clarify what numbers the chairwoman might have been referring to. Today, we have -- we have just recently celebrated our 10,000th graduate from the apprentice program in those 98 years. We have over 3,000 of the apprentice graduates in the company today. As I said, about 45 to 50 percent of our production management workforce is apprentice graduate, so, at 20,000 people, we have 750 on roll on any given year, and in graduating those, we're in the high 80 to 90 percent range up to 10 years after graduation that stay with the company. So our numbers of retention of apprentices are very high. Just a smaller subset of our total employment population. Mr. Scott. And one of the numbers I think was 1 out of 12. It is so popular; everybody want wants to get into it. Mr. Hogan. Yes. As I said, the application rate is about 2,400, 2,500 applicants a year for the 240 slots that we have. And several years ago, when the economy had really taken a downturn, we were running in the 5- to 6,000 range of applicants, but we kept it at about the 250 a year entry. Mr. Scott. When someone graduates from The Apprentice School, what kind of credential do they get, and is that recognized in the industry? Mr. Hogan. It is a journeyman's certificate in whatever trade that they had served their apprenticeship in. For example, when I graduated from the apprentice program in 1980, I received a journeyman's certificate as a welder, and I could have stayed with the company, but I could have taken that certificate to most any industry and had it been recognized as a full-fledged journeyman in that trade, and that's still the same today. Mr. Scott. Thank you. Mr. Bennett, what's the difference between a registered program and an industry-recognized program? Mr. Bennett. Yes, in simple terms, a registered program governed by the Department of Labor is structured in terms of the amount of classroom time, as well as the on-the-job, earn- as-you-learn work experience whereas an industry-recognized credential -- if I give an example of the National Center for Construction Education and Research, they're a provider of curriculum to the construction industry all across the world, and what happens is, in those programs, when you complete your accredited -- it's nationally recognized. And the value of that is, regardless of where you go in the country, you're in a national database; you can be brought up in that database. So, if you come from California to Maine, I can look at where you are in your program development. You may have completed it. It would tell me that. You may have partially completed it, and you could pick right up where you left off with us from your previous employer. Mr. Scott. If somebody wanted to start one of these, what would they have to go through? Mr. Bennett. To establish themselves, what they would do is work with the national center. You actually become -- you have to get your instructors certified. So there's a qualification process for getting your instructor certified to teach. You have to be an accredited center or work under an accredited center. It is very well governed in terms of its structure, policies, means, and methods that need to be followed, and then you begin teaching. Mr. Scott. Is that process more or less complicated than registration? Mr. Bennett. In my experience, it is less complicated. Mr. Scott. What do you have to do for registration? Mr. Bennett. For registration, you have to work with those individual States to get your programs approved, and this may not be a popular subject, but it is very political. We can -- just as a matter of fact, talked with a constituent of mine who tried to get their carpentry program approved. They were told you have to include framing and residential carpentry in your form building program, which are trades that they are skill sets within that trade that they're never going to use. So, unless they put those skill sets in, they would not be allowed to be registered. Mr. Scott. Mr. Hogan, is that your experience in the Virginia Manufacturers Association, complication in registration? Mr. Hogan. With the VMA, they have established with community colleges in the Commonwealth of Virginia a Manufacturing Skills Institute program, and that is tailored to multiple industries. It can cover something as wide, as specific as maintenance up to and including a machinist type program, and community colleges are equipped to offer the classes that are associated with that skills institute, perform the assessment, and then award varying levels of manufacturing skills certificates. Mr. Scott. Is the registration process more complicated or industry recognition process more complicated, in your view? Mr. Hogan. We are currently registered through the Department of Labor at Newport News for our apprentice program, and, you know, we have been accredited since 1982, registered since then, as well. We don't find it to be overly burdensome and complicated. Once our programs are registered, unless we make some substantive change to them, we don't have to reregister the programs. It is fairly easy to maintain registration. Mr. Scott. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Chairman Guthrie. Thank you. I thank the ranking member for yielding. And I'll now recognize myself for 5 minutes for purpose of questions. And, first, I'll make a couple of introductions to show, talking about Kentucky FAME, that it is in the highest levels of our Commonwealth and focus, is we have Leeann Veatch. She is here from the Governor's Office and shows our Governor's commitment to this. And, Mr. Peglow, I believe you referenced your wife, and she is sitting right behind you here supporting you here today. So I would like to welcome my constituent here as well today. I appreciate you being here. So I would like to ask you a question first, Mr. Peglow. You described how Kentucky FAME is structured so that you work 3 days while going to school the other 2 days. This is in contrast to other types of programs you mentioned, as you said, where you would first have studied 2 years, earn a degree, before going into the field of study. Why do you think the combination of work and study in Kentucky FAME is valuable, and what unique things do you think you have learned by being able to do work and study at the same time? Mr. Peglow. I think going to work and school at the same time is very valuable because most programs that I have looked at other than this, you go to school 3 or 4 or 5 days a week full time. And most of the time, the job you do while you're in college is a part-time job other than what you're going to school for. This way, I get what I learn in school on Tuesday and Thursday; I can take to work Monday, Wednesday, and Friday, and apply it to everything that we do in work. And the companies and school has worked well together, and as we're learning stuff in school, we implement sessions and work to go along with the same things we're doing in school. So, if we do machining, then we're also doing machining at work to kind of balance those out and help our education, I guess. Chairman Guthrie. Well, thank you, that's very good. I toured a Kentucky FAME program in Owensboro and had similar sentiments from people who are working there and studying at the same time, so thanks. So, Ms. Hughes, throughout your testimony, you emphasize the importance of Kentucky FAME being employer- or industry- led. What does this mean, and why do you think it is important? Ms. Hughes. Well, each chapter is directed by those employers that join it, and it is very important to them that they are active in the community and out recruiting in the community. But we as employers understand our needs better than anyone, and we can partner with the local school or community college to design the curriculum that we need. Obviously, manufacturers need to work together on this, instead of working separately, and working together, we have a larger voice within the community colleges to effect changes to the curriculum. Manufacturing in any business, technology is changing fast, and if we need to make a change or add something to a class, add a new section, we can have that sitdown with the community college and have that conversation. And that's not to criticize a community college or a technical school. They're just simply not in our businesses every day, and they don't know how quickly the technology changes, but we are aware of that. It also, like, as I said, gets the employer very involved in the community, whether that's out in recruiting -- I mean, we're going out to high schools, out to ACC schools, out in the community. We also recruit veterans coming out of the military. It gets us very involved in our communities in doing that. We're not only promoting the advanced technician program, but we are advancing manufacturing jobs in general, which is extremely important in our country. For so long, people think that manufacturing is dirty, dark, and dangerous, and that is simply not true in our manufacturers today, and we need to bring those young people and people back into manufacturing in our country. Chairman Guthrie. Well, thanks. And, also, in our area, a lot of people may not understand what -- the Bowling Green area, but it is just north of Nashville about an hour, which is -- Nashville is one of the boom cities of the country, and I- 65, so a lot of manufacturing is located in our area. Of course, Logan Aluminum has been there quite some time, but whenever I'm home touring it, and all of my area actually, the things you hear about, one, is access to skilled workers to come into work in the factory, which you are trying to address. But the other one is turnover. You hear that quite a bit from people in turnover. And I know that Logan Aluminum -- how is Logan Aluminum's apprenticeship program and being part of being Kentucky FAME helped you dealing with the turnover that so many other companies have to deal with? Ms. Hughes. Well, we have had very low turnover in our apprenticeship program over the last 30 years. It has been less than 6 percent, after they leave the program, they have stayed with our company. And one of the reasons for that, frankly, is Logan's culture. We have a very different culture from a lot of manufacturers. We have self-directed work teams, and that causes a very low turnover because we offer -- they have a voice very much so in our business. We live by principles and things like that. So that's very unique to Logan Aluminum. And, historically, we have very low turnover for a manufacturer anyway. But the investment that we are making in the individuals that go through Kentucky FAME's program is very high because our program is not just the 18 months they're in the program in school; they spend another year out on the floor as an apprentice before. And we pay for all of their education, and we also pay a very good salary while they're in the program to support them and their families. And we are investing about $200,000 per apprentice through that program. They recognize that. They know that we want them to have a career. This is not just a job for them. It is a career. And also a lot -- Chairman Guthrie. My time is kind of expiring. So I appreciate the answer. Just to be fair to the other questioners -- but thank you for your answer. I will now recognize the Ranking Member Davis for 5 minutes for her. Mrs. Davis. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you all so much for being here. We greatly appreciate it. And I think, you know, we're trying to make some contrasts here, and in some ways, I'm not sure that contrast is necessarily there, but for clarification, Mr. Hogan, do you feel as if the apprenticeship school is industry-led? Mr. Hogan. It is. It is led by our current company as part of what has been a shrinking industry. The maritime industry has shrunk greatly in the United States in the 40 years that I have been in the business. You consider that there's not really any major, if any, commercial shipbuilding going on in the United States today. We are -- we used to be part of what was called one of the Big 6 yards, and now it is really down to two entities. General Dynamics has their three yards. Newport News has our three yards. And then there's, you know, a smattering of smaller yards through the Gulf Coast in the Florida panhandle area. And we are an industry leader in shipbuilding. So, in many ways, you could say that it is industry-led. I'm very proud to say Huntington Ingalls, with our Pascagoula, Mississippi, facility, has the Haley Barbour Maritime Institute, which exists there, and they have done -- as we have been part of the same organization -- modeled some of their apprentice program after ours. Speaking with Representative Courtney earlier, and General Dynamics electric boat is reconstituting their apprentice program as part of the ramp-up that we see in defense and shipbuilding in this Nation. So, you know, it is kind of an either/or. You can say we're company-led or you can say we're industry-led because it is a much smaller industry than perhaps automotive, food, other manufacturing industries in the United States. Does that answer your question? Mrs. Davis. I think so. You know, if I were a parent and I was with my son or daughter -- and you do a very good job recruiting women, which I think is admirable, and certainly we want to make sure that continues to grow -- and I'm trying to figure out, you know, the differences here, and as I understand it, there are many registered apprenticeship programs that then allow someone to qualify for an industry recognition certification. So is there -- you know, the cart before the horse. How does that work? Mr. Hogan. Well, certainly, an apprentice from another company or even industry would have some recognition in our company, but they would not hold the same certification that a Newport News Apprentice School graduate would have. We have a very strict curriculum. It is a mix of both -- we like to call it the three pillars are craftsmanship, scholarship, and leadership. It is modeled very much after the Naval Academy's approach. So, and I think Mr. Peglow, you know, hit it on the mark when he talked about it is the right mix of scholastic work along with your craft work at the same time, and then we add in the leadership component to it whereas others, even where they're industry-led, whether they're not registered, they're often focused more just on the craft portion of it. And there's nothing wrong with that. We just find it being the combination of those three that we have in place to really help create the leaders of the future in shipbuilding for Newport News. Mrs. Davis. Is it your understanding then that the fact that -- where does the added value come from? You mentioned the leadership, which I think is critically important but may not be something that industry cares about. But is it the registration part of the program that gives that added value? Mr. Hogan. The registration part is flexible enough where it allows us to focus on those three components of it. It doesn't restrict us to one. It does allow an industry point of view that we're able to put into our programs, and we have found it to be, as our president -- previous president and current president -- has termed it kind of our secret sauce at Newport News in the right makeup of those three aspects of it, and we have just found the right balance of that to create both future craftsmen for the company but also future leaders. Mrs. Davis. I wonder, maybe -- thank you, Mr. Hogan -- because our time is limited, but, Mr. Bennett or Ms. Hughes, do you want to comment? I mean, is there something about that people might inquire of Kentucky FAME and say, you know, it sounds like you're doing a lot of those same things, but you seem to want very much to want a distinction between the programs? Did I understand that right or -- Ms. Hughes. I don't know that we make a definite distinction. The Kentucky FAME AMT technician is not a registered program. However, we do have member companies who do have registered programs, as well. The reason that I think Kentucky FAME is so unique is that it has flexibility for employers of all sizes. Mr. Hogan comes from a very large employer, and in Kentucky, I come from a larger employer, but an employer that has less than 100 employees, which many manufacturers do, I think this is an option for them because they can come and have a -- sponsor a student, maybe one student every other year, and still be a member of a chapter, and they do not -- they won't have the resources at their facility possibly to do a registered program with the application process and so forth. But the Kentucky FAME program offers them a very standardized program that the student comes out with an associate's degree and then is mentored at their facility specific to their needs at that facility. So I think that's the distinction there because of the flexibility, but we do have member companies, such as some of the ones in Louisville, Ford, and I believe there's a couple of others who do have registered apprenticeship programs as well as being a member of the Kentucky FAME. Mrs. Davis. Thank you. Chairman Guthrie. Thank you. Thank you for yielding. And I now recognize Mr. Byrne 5 minutes for questions. Mr. Byrne. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. When I was the chancellor of the postsecondary system in Alabama, I was also the chair of the Workforce Planning Council. So I got to deal with a variety of training programs. And I was real proud of the FAME programs we had in the 2-year college system, but we frequently had a hard time getting enough students to participate in our construction trades, that really didn't work in the sort of academic environment of a 2- year college, even a technical college. So apprenticeship programs seemed to work particularly well in the construction trades. That's where we could attract people because they could work while they're getting their training. That seemed to work pretty well. So I welcome the President's executive order. I think it is great. But there's that provision in section 4 that says that the Secretary can exclude an industry if it already has an effective and substantially widespread program. Well, if you excluded the construction industry, I'm afraid we would exclude an industry that almost by its nature has to depend upon apprenticeship programs to get their students and to get the training. So, Mr. Bennett, I would like to ask you to respond to that, if you could. Mr. Bennett. Yeah, we have reviewed that executive order, and, you know, our sentiments are I think it is very premature at this stage to exclude anything, given the demand that we face today: 500,000 skilled worker shortage. The infrastructure bill that, should that pass, could go anywhere from another 4- to 600,000 that they're predicting by 2020. The apprenticeship model in its current state will not get us there, and I think what's misunderstood sometimes is when we hear that term ``apprenticeship,'' it is not a siloed approach. The construction industry has been training and developing a workforce since its infancy, and it hasn't just been through registered apprenticeship, and that understanding is -- I don't think is very well understood in the country, and our company, we provide both. We have registered apprenticeship programs that meet State licensing requirements, but more so, we have industry-recognized development that is going on for our workforce, and it is significant to our success. And the distinction between those two is the industry- recognized programs are much more nimble. It allows us to adapt quickly to the needs of our clients, and we're not interested in sacrificing rigor, relevance, or safety. We can't afford to. This industry today is too dynamic and too sophisticated for us to cut corners, so we're not looking for less as we look to compress, right, that developmental efforts. And so when we're looking at this executive order, I think it is very premature to exclude anything right now. I think we need to look at what is working, how do we enhance those models, and how can we expand upon what else is going on in the industry, because, my opinion, that by itself is not going to allow us to get to that 500- or a million number. Mr. Byrne. Well, I'm really glad you brought up the infrastructure program. Because I was talking to the Secretary of Transportation the other day, talking about her sort of vision for that. I know the President's vision for that. It's ambitious. And I want it to be ambitious. I think it's good for the country. But I told her, I said, I'm worried about finding the workforce to build all that infrastructure. We lost a lot of that workforce during the recession. I'm telling you what you already know. And you can't just rebuild that workforce overnight. We've got to attract people into the programs and get them, you know, into the apprenticeship programs. So I hear what you're saying is, look, not just for the health of our industry, but if we're really going to be serious about a major infrastructure program for America, we have to think about all sorts of different ways of creating that workforce to build up to what it would take to do that. Ms. Hughes, I want to ask you a question. Registered and unregistered, to the average person out there, what's the difference? So in plain, layman terms, so even somebody like me can understand it, what's the difference, what's the substantive difference between the two? Ms. Hughes. I have been in HR since 1999, and I can tell you, I've reviewed many applications. And I would view them, if someone has a registered apprenticeship, a journeyman, or someone who has an associate's degree in industrial maintenance, I would look at them the same. Because I think that having that education and then the job experience that goes along with it has to be important. So I don't see that there's much distinction. Obviously, I know legally a registered apprenticeship has to be registered with the Department of Labor. I understand that. But there are many people that are in hiring positions in industry, certainly in the Commonwealth of Kentucky, who don't necessarily recognize -- not necessarily recognize, but don't see a distinction. They're looking at whether that person can do the job, whether they have the job experience. That associate's degree would be helpful. But also, if someone doesn't have that, if they've got 30 years' experience in maintenance or welding, whatever it might be, we're going to hire that person without a certificate or not. Mr. Byrne. Thank you. My time is up. I yield back. Chairman Guthrie. I thank the gentleman for yielding back. And I now recognize Mr. Courtney for 5 minutes for questions. Mr. Courtney. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for holding this hearing, and to the witnesses for really interesting testimony. Again, I particularly enjoy this topic because we're talking about the Registered Apprenticeship Program, which is also known as the Fitzgerald Act. And Fitzgerald actually was the Congressman from the Second Congressional District of Connecticut back in 1937, 80 years ago, when it was passed into law and signed into law by President Roosevelt. I actually asked the House Historian to pull up a picture of Congressman Fitzgerald. He's the good looking Irish guy on the left over there and a really interesting Member. He actually was a foundry worker, Mr. Peglow, who worked his way up through a company, Richmond Radiator, in eastern Connecticut, became a superintendent of the company, worked for the State Department of Labor setting up apprenticeship programs in the 1930s, during the Depression, and then was elected to Congress in 1936. Passed this law in his first term in office, which is not bad, to have, again, an act named after you and have on the books for the last 80 years. Left Congress after serving only two terms and became the head of the War Production Board in Connecticut during World War II. Electric Boat built 74 submarines during World War II. And I know your shipyard in Virginia did the same. And it's interesting because a registered apprenticeship program was folded into the War Production Board. So the notion that we can't scale up the Registered Apprenticeship Program for a large undertaking -- which, again, whether it's infrastructure or shipbuilding -- I mean, the fact of the matter is that, you know, Mr. Fitzgerald showed you can do it and you can do it with high-quality apprenticeship programs with real standards. Again, we built a 5,000-ship Navy in World War II, which is staggering when you really look at we have a 272-ship Navy today. So really it's a question of just how do we look at this, with the benefit of hindsight to some degree. And I think a big part of it is just, again, make sure that we think big and we also recognize this is also about resources. Again, we have another slide which, again, lays out what we're doing budget-wise in terms of apprenticeship programs. In the fiscal year 2017 budget, which was a bipartisan budget that we just passed, $95 million, the Apprenticeship Accelerated Grant Program, which, again, companies in my district and other parts of the country are taking advantage of, which provides, again, about 3500 per employee to entice businesses to join the apprenticeship program. Unfortunately, as was mentioned by Mrs. Davis, it was zeroed out a couple weeks ago in the Labor-H appropriations bill, which is really kind of totally at odds with the executive order which was just issued. We also saw the WIOA grants, the Workforce Investment Opportunity Act grants, cut. Again, that was a bipartisan bill, the Workforce Investment Opportunity Act that was signed into law in 2014. Again, that's going in the exact opposite direction of the topic that we're talking about here today. The fact of the matter is we want to encourage and entice employers to participate in these programs, and taking these resources away is just sort of going in the opposite direction. So, Mr. Hogan, again, up at EB what we're seeing with the ramp-up of submarine construction is we're getting a lot of small suppliers who are also having to ramp up, because that's going to be a big part of the model in terms of getting there. And is it your experience that some of these suppliers in Virginia are also really looking to apprenticeship programs to meet the demand? Mr. Hogan. Yes, sir. I have seen that both with my work with the VMA and as a previous position I held at Newport News supply chain management head. We see the same thing across the industrial base. And we're dealing with manufacturers who aren't just solely shipbuilding, maritime-related suppliers. They supply on the commercial market, the construction industry, a wide variety of areas that they supply to, and across the Commonwealth of Virginia. And I've seen it, because we have suppliers, basically, in 50 States across the Nation, very similar situations. And many of them at all scales of size of the companies are looking for programs that currently exist that they can participate in. If not, what does it take to do it in their company? And, oftentimes they don't have the same benefits that I do in a large company and the training and infrastructure we have in place to do those. So many companies are struggling today to find a model and funding associated with it. Mr. Courtney. Thank you. So, Mr. Chairman, I just want to enter a letter from Collins and Jewell Company in eastern Connecticut, who is one of those suppliers. I'm just going to read two sentences real quick. ``We, at first, were very reluctant to get enrolled into the apprenticeship program as we were under the misconception that apprenticeships was a very difficult process for small employers. We as small employers typically connect apprenticeships to unions or very large employers. We were surprisingly relieved that the process was not nearly as daunting as imagined.'' And I think that's something that will continue to reverberate out there if we get those incentives in place. With that, I would ask that it be entered for the record. Chairman Guthrie. Thank you. Without objection, so ordered. [The information follows:] [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Mr. Courtney. Thank you. I yield back. Chairman Guthrie. Thank the gentleman for yielding back. I now recognize Ms. Stefanik 5 minutes for the purpose of asking questions. Ms. Stefanik. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Peglow, thank you for your excellent testimony today. You talked about your experience in school, and you graduated in 2014. Is that correct? Mr. Peglow. Yes, ma'am. Ms. Stefanik. I'm curious whether you felt you had adequate opportunities when you were in high school, before you moved on to college, to have vocational education and internship opportunities. Mr. Peglow. Yes, I did. We had a welding program at our school. Welding and masonry were the two major parts of it. Then, in high school, I wasn't really focused on what I wanted to do afterwards, and I didn't have an interest in manufacturing or the welding programs. In high school, I was actually headed down the path of culinary chef and totally changed when I got out of high school. But speaking of Franklin Simpson High School, we had ample opportunities to do different career paths. And I know Logan High School and a couple other county high schools have more advanced programs. But most all the schools in the area have very well programs. Ms. Stefanik. So do you think, in retrospect, connecting those programs to workforce opportunities after graduation would have helped you sort of develop the path and see a bit into the future? Mr. Peglow. Yeah. I believe they would have helped a little bit. Ms. Stefanik. The reason why I ask that question is we have some great high school workforce development programs in my district through BOCES, and they partner with local employers so that there's a direct pipeline from students at the high school level who are learning these technical skills and immediately will have employment opportunities so they can see what they're learning in the classroom, in a hands-on way, how that actually translates to jobs. So I just wanted to get your experience. But thank you for your testimony. Mr. Bennett, I wanted to ask you a few questions. In your testimony you noted that the construction industry makes up the largest segment of registered apprenticeships. Industry-wide, could you share what percentage of construction industry apprenticeships are registered versus not registered? Mr. Bennett. I would have to follow up with you on what that exact number is. I don't want to misquote statistics for you this morning. Ms. Stefanik. Okay. I look forward to that follow-up. But there definitely is a mixture between registered and unregistered. Is that correct? Mr. Bennett. Yes. Ms. Stefanik. Could you describe some different types of the industry-recognized programs? Mr. Bennett. Sure. I can give you an example of welding personally from our own company. We produced the largest oil refinery expansion in this country in 40 years. And when we went into that project, we needed 250 pipe welders. And what you need to understand in the construction world is jobs take a long time to develop. They don't just happen. It takes time to evolve. And so you don't just have a bench full of people waiting to go to work. You have people that are working and those resources are being deployed in other areas. So when this job came up, 250 welders needed, we needed to look at how we were going to staff that project. We had internal resources, but we also knew we were going to have to recruit and develop these individuals. And we worked with external professionals to understand, how could we go about this? And we were told the traditional model of pipe welding is you become a structural welder, you need to apply those skills, you come back in, and you begin to learn pipe. And we didn't have that kind of time on our hands. And we developed 250 pipe welders in 12 weeks, in a competency-based program that is industry recognized, both certifications, the weld certifications that they possess. And we successfully built that job, on time, under budget, against two other contractors in the country, and we outperformed both of those contractors. And of our welding metrics as we watched the cyclicalness of jobs can come and go in terms of your workforce needs, and one of the first downturns on the project, which is driven by many things, material, engineering, the first thought would be, well, you're going to let your new folks go first and keep your veterans. Of the top 15 welders on that project, 14 of them were graduates out of that program who had never welded before. So the model can work. And when we look at the distinctions, it's not that registered apprenticeship doesn't work and that it's overly burdened. It's there. It's been very effective for many, many years. But there's also this model of industry-recognized programs that also works. And it's highly effective. And, again, it contains rigor and relevance and safety. And that's what's important for me to get across today, is both models can work and the country needs both models. Ms. Stefanik. Thank you. I think that's an incredibly important point. And that anecdote highlighted the effectiveness and the efficiency of the program that is recognized at the industry level. My time has expired, but thank you to the panel. It was excellent testimony across the board today. Chairman Guthrie. Thank you for yielding back. I now recognize Ms. Adams for 5 minutes for questions. Ms. Adams. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Ranking Member, thank you for holding this meeting. And to all of you, thank you for your testimony. It has been very inspiring. And as a former educator, certainly it's something that I have a personal interest in. Everyone knows that the benefits of apprenticeships are really good. They provide our workforce with the skills that they need to undertake the jobs of the future. They put our workers in a position to enter the middle class with stable, good-paying jobs. And they bring the potential for advancement, and they can provide an alternative path to obtaining a 4-year college degree for young adults who can't take on the burden of student debt, which is really a serious problem. Mr. Bennett, let me ask you first, you challenged the Registered Apprenticeship Program as being too rigid, too focused on a time component. It's my understanding that under current rules registered apprenticeships can be time based, competency based, or a mixture of both. In the college context, we've seen what happens when we give Federal resources to low-quality schools that provide no value to students. So are you concerned that opening up Federal resources to entities with much lower quality and safety priorities than Cianbro may lead to supporting apprenticeship programs that don't help participants or harm the reputation of apprenticeship programs? Mr. Bennett. That's a great question. The answer to that, no. From our organization and association, we have absolutely no interest -- and you've heard me say this morning -- in less rigor, less relevance, or less safety focus. We cannot afford to. Our clients today demand that you're able to put their work in place safely. In fact, they set standards on if your recordable incident rate isn't at a certainly level, you're not even allowed to bid on those projects. And so not only morally is it just our responsibility to ensure a safe workplace for our team members, and their loved ones certainly deserve to know that when that loved one leaves home and goes to work that they're going to work someplace that is safe. That is our moral obligation. So when we look at compressing the development efforts of our workforce, absolutely, we do not want or expect that rigor, relevance, or focus on safety should be watered down in any manner or fashion. Ms. Adams. So when you say an all-of-the-above approach, what do you mean? Mr. Bennett. Well, an all-of-the-above approach, what we mean by that is let's not just focus on developing or attacking the skill shortage in this country with simply registered apprenticeship programs. There are multiple pathways just like we have in our educational system for students. You can go the traditional high school model. You can enter career and technical education. There should be multiple pathways, just like we have for our students, for folks that want to develop these professional trade skills. Ms. Adams. All right. Thank you very much. Let me move on. In the 12th District of North Carolina, Siemens has seen remarkable success with their apprenticeship model, partnering with Central Piedmont Community College to sponsor high tech and European-style apprenticeships, manufacturing gas and steam turbines for power plants. Mr. Hogan, I was interested to read about your experiences with the apprentice school. You have a fine record of preparing students for the jobs for tomorrow. And you mentioned the schools' partnership with local community colleges. Could you elaborate on how Newport News Shipbuilding engages students in these institutions as well as K-12 students who are looking at community colleges as an option? Mr. Hogan. Yes, ma'am. We actually have two models from a workforce development perspective. One is through the apprentice program. And the majority of our scholastic portion, academic portion of the program, is taught by onsite instructors employed by the apprentice school. I think somebody asked me one time, what about dual enrollment classes? If somebody took a high school class, dual enrollment with a local community college, we would take a look at that relative to their transcripts and requirements in the apprentice school, and we may waive the requirement for them to take one of those classes if it was dual enrollment. Most of our association with the community colleges is through our normal workforce development for the remainder of our employees in the company, which is the larger population. And we use a variety of things: tuition reimbursement, where a person can go to school on their own time and the company is willing to pay for them to get something that is applicable to their work in the shipyard. As well, we have established specific programs with community colleges to focus on workforce development for Newport News. In fact, years ago I participated in a program myself and received a 1-year industrial management certificate from the local community college in my very early stages of my career. Today we utilize them in what's called an hourly leadership development program. So our union-eligible represented workforce can go use a community college with the classes paid for by the company to equip them for those both academic and leadership classes. Ms. Adams. Wonderful. Thank you very much. I'm out of time. Mr. Chair, I yield back. Chairman Guthrie. Thank you for yielding. I thank the gentlelady for yielding. And I now recognize Mr. Smucker for 5 minutes for questions. Mr. Smucker. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I very much am pleased that the chairman has chosen to conduct the hearing on this particular topic, I'm pleased that it's a priority of this committee, because I think there's so much potential for us. And, Mr. Peglow, thank you for being here. It's a wonderful story, shared by so many, myself as well. So I would be what you consider a nontraditional student. I did construction at night, hanging drywall to earn my way through high school, actually, and then after that operated a business and went to college at night. So the idea of earn while you learn is something that I experienced. And the construction company I owned, we had about 150 employees. And so I have a very special affinity for those who choose construction as their career. And I'm also fully aware of the many wonderful opportunities there are in the construction trades. But our problem always was, always, the number one thing that hindered our growth was finding qualified people to fill the spots that we had available for those great family- sustaining jobs. And so I just think apprenticeship is a model that begins to solve not only the issues of finding people for jobs, but provides so many great opportunities for people all across the country and gets to other problems that we talk about as well, like college debt and many other things. And so we'd never discourage a 4-year degree for anyone, but we just want people to understand there are so many other opportunities available. We want to work for those. You know, I hear the discussion and specifically some of the comments made by the ranking member that I agree with so much, that we all want a program that is prestigious, a program that means something, when you come through that program, you have some certificate, you have some certification at the end that you can hang on to and know that you've achieved something. And that's important not only for the student, but it's important for parents. And I think the ranking member mentioned that it needs to be a program of value. So we must have high- quality programs. And it's interesting to me, I hear all the discussion about registration. There's a lot of discussion about that. To me, that feels -- we agree on so much of this, there really isn't much contrast. That registration, to me, is like talking about building a building and you're arguing about the color of the doorknobs. I mean, literally. What we want is programs that are quality. We want a certification at the end of that product. And, unfortunately, what happens with registration is some people who currently have registered programs have put a lock on that doorknob and have kept other companies, they've used it as a barrier to entry to training employees. That's the problem we have with registration. If we can come up with a system that you can readily get approval for, I don't think anybody would argue with registration. So I think there are a lot of ways it could be done as well. We just want to ensure that there's a strong system in place. Whether it's done the way we currently do it or whether it's done through industry certification, you have to have a strong system of recognizing and holding accountable to ensure that we have quality programs. One of the models -- and maybe, Ms. Hughes, I'm really fascinated by what you've done by Kentucky FAME, and I appreciate the chairman sharing this model with us. It seems outstanding. But could we look to other areas of higher education as some model? You have a lot of different institutions. They're accredited in different ways. Is there anything we can learn from that in how we register our programs? Ms. Hughes. Yes, I think we can. I think that looking to what the community colleges are presently teaching and so they understand what the industry needs and are those classes up to date. I think it's a partnership between those two groups, whether that's a banking business, whether that's culinary, because our local schools teach that, making sure that they are up to date and teaching those things. The one thing that's wonderful about Kentucky FAME is that it adds that personal behavior, soft skills piece to that, as well as the safety, the manufacturing core classes, such as workforce organization, that type of thing. So I think that's important. Looking at other colleges and universities, as well, for co-op programs and internship -- Mr. Smucker. I'm going to jump in. And I'm sorry, I talked too much. I have a lot of additional questions. But one thing I really like about what you're describing at Kentucky FAME is how businesses are engaged. Ms. Hughes. Very engaged. Mr. Smucker. And it's an aspect of the apprenticeship program that I think holds so much promise. It's a way for businesses to really engage in not only hiring employees, but in the development of those employees. And it's a model for them to do that. So I wish I had more time. But I look forward to speaking with all of you to learn more about your programs. Chairman Guthrie. I thank the gentleman for yielding. And I now recognize Mr. Krishnamoorthi for 5 minutes. Mr. Krishnamoorthi. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I really applaud you calling this hearing today with the ranking member. It's definitely a topic that both sides of the aisle are very interested in, and I think we can really work together to strengthen your ability to offer apprenticeships. And thank you, Mr. Peglow, for coming in and talking about the real world impact of apprenticeships, because I think more people need to hear from people like you, quite frankly. My first question is, recently the House passed a bipartisan reauthorization of the Perkins Career and Technical Education Act. It was not only bipartisan, it was unanimous through the House of Representatives. I was proud to be the co- lead for that legislation, along with my colleague, Republican Congressman Thompson from Pennsylvania. And one of the improvements that bill made was to align CTE programs with workforce needs and support work-based learning opportunities which may, of course, include apprenticeships. So my first question is to Mr. Hogan. You know, as a member of the business community, sir, what do you find to be among the most meaningful ways to engage with the community's local CTE programs? In other words, do you actively work with the local community colleges in trying to fashion their curriculum to suit your needs? And how can the Federal Government help in those efforts? Mr. Hogan. Certainly. What I would say is in addition our world class apprentice program that I talked about, the rest of our training for the remainder of the workforce is handled through a special department or division that takes care of all the trades-related training. That group, as well, is connected with what we call our Career Pathways Program, which then is linked to both our community colleges and our local high schools, all the way K- 12, is how we're linked up there. Because what we recognize is, is that is a feeder to the workforce of the future. Not everyone will get into the apprentice program, but that doesn't discount them as potential highly skilled first-class shipbuilders for Newport News. So our linkage to CTE is through a special program that we have called Career Pathways. Mr. Krishnamoorthi. Thank you. I appreciate that. I wanted to highlight one program in my own State which is basically based at a company called Aon, one of the world's largest insurance companies. And basically what they did is they created an apprenticeship program in insurance and risk management, one in information technology, and one in human resources. And these apprentices get paid competitive salaries. They're offered full employee benefits. They get on-the-job training. And they get paid tuition at partner schools to get an associate's degree as well. In addition, they get a labor-certified insurance apprenticeship, both of which are transferable outside of Aon. And so one question I wanted to ask Mr. Bennett, with regard to these registered apprenticeships I think that part of the argument for having them is that they ensure a certain level of quality across the board. And so we can ensure that our children and students and others who are perhaps in career transition, who engage in these apprenticeships, are able to get something that really can transfer around the country, because everybody can trust in it. So I'd like to ask you, like, what do you see as potential benefits of having a registered apprenticeship, setting aside for a moment your concerns about the actual registration process? But do you agree that having a registered apprenticeship is a good thing nationally? Mr. Bennett. I mean as a company, as I stated, we provide both. There's value to both. But there's a reason why we offer both. And so the registered program, the way they're structured with classroom time and on-the-job learning, is very valuable. And our nonregistered programs are set up very similarly, but they also lead to having credentialing, because, as I said, we're not interested in having something with less rigor, relevance, or safety focus. So there is a credentialing process. In fact, it's as strict, if not more strict than an apprenticeship model, where there's a knowledge verification, a written test of understanding the technical knowledge. But there's also a performance verification where you have to demonstrate that competency before you're issued that certification. So it provides that same level of comfort for our students that, as they're progressing, we know that they've not only mastered or understand the technical aspect of it, but they also know how to apply the learning. And so there's value for us in both of those. So I don't want to be misunderstood this morning that I'm pitting one against the other. That is not my position or the association's position. But it is simply there is more than one way to get to the end. And it's that recognition of these nonregistered programs that we have to do a better job at educating our lawmakers on and the industry on, because it's very valuable and it's been very successful. And we work with the technical high schools, a significant number of them, not only to help purchase curriculum books, but we sit on their advisory councils, we help develop the curriculum, we provide internships, paid internships, to put our money where our mouth is. It's important. That is our future. And, again, we can't afford less rigor, less relevance, or any less focus on safety. Mr. Smucker. [Presiding.] Thank you. Mr. Krishnamoorthi. Thank you. Mr. Smucker. Thank you. I would now like to recognize Mr. Grothman for 5 minutes of questioning. Mr. Grothman. Thanks much. We'll start with Mr. Bennett, and we'll finish with Mr. Bennett too. I want to talk a little bit about the apprenticeship program and the percentages, apprentice versus journeyman. There are restrictions in the number of apprentices you can hire per journeyman. Can you give me some examples of a job where it would be appropriate to hire more apprentices than right now for a journeyman? Mr. Bennett. Sure. So maybe to kind of help set the stage. Mr. Grothman. Maybe explain the rule a little bit. Mr. Bennett. A ratio may be you can have one apprentice or helper to one journey-level tradesperson. There are situations with many trades where that might be understated in terms of the conditions of the work, the hazards associated with the work. There are opportunities where a journey-level individual could oversee, very safely, more than one individual. In the same token, I can give you examples of where it is absolutely the correct thing to do to have a one-to-one ratio given the hazards associated with the work that needs to be performed. But there are many cases where you could have more. So what that does to us, the restriction that puts on us, is we can only develop so many based on how many journey-level craftspeople we employ. Mr. Grothman. You think sometimes you should be able to hire three apprentices for every two journeymen? Mr. Bennett. I think there are situations where you absolutely could do that, yes. Mr. Grothman. Okay. Are there enough people out there that if you could hire more, you would? I mean, I guess I can think in my own mind there are two reasons why we don't have enough people in trade. You can say just not enough people are going in. But you could also say, from what you're telling me, that if you could, on individual jobs, hire another couple apprentices, maybe you could get people through the program quicker. Could you comment, do you believe we could get more people through the program if you could sometimes hire more apprentices? Mr. Bennett. I believe you could. And that's one of the distinctions between what are the restrictions in a registered apprenticeship program? That would be one of them. Compared to or contrast that with a nonregistered program, we don't have to have that ratio. Mr. Grothman. Okay. In your testimony, you referred to unnecessary requirements of registered apprenticeship programs that sometimes waste taxpayer money. Could you give me examples of that and what you think we could do to improve things a little? Mr. Bennett. Well, I can, without opening up a can of worms. We're a Federal contractor, and we perform work under the Davis-Bacon Act. And on those projects, just hypothetical, if it was a $30 million project, and let's say the contract required that for every million dollars' worth of work you had to have an apprentice. Typically, an apprentice, let's just hypothetically say, is making 50 percent of that journey-level wage. If you don't have a registered apprenticeship program, that work still needs to be performed. You would end up putting journey-level professionals in those apprenticeship spots and you will pay the journey-level wage on those projects. Where that ends up becoming expensive to the client, the State, the Federal Government, is you're paying wages for journey-level folks in an apprentice-level program that's unnecessary, and you're not developing the future workforce. And sometimes we hear that the registration process can be fairly simple. In the same terms that there are jobs that take a long time to develop, there are also projects where we're reacting today and sending people to another State in this country to go to work, and we may not be registered in that State. In fact, we may have never worked in that State before. In the time that it takes to get something registered, that's where some of the hurdles come in for us as a national contractor. Mr. Grothman. Okay. I'll give you one more question here. You talked about -- I'm sorry, Cianbro? Is that how -- Mr. Bennett. Cianbro. Mr. Grothman. Cianbro. Okay. And the things you do to ensure worker safety, and they're all excellent qualities to have in a business, and it's fair to say we need more companies like yours. That being said, you were also particularly critical of the rigidity of the Department of Labor's Registered Apprenticeship Programs and the fact they frequently do not meet the needs of industry. Could you elaborate on that a little more? Mr. Bennett. Yeah. Some of the rigidity that's within those programs in terms of the time, what consists of a registered program. So in our world, as an open shop contractor, as we develop a skilled craft professional, that individual -- I'll just use carpenter as an example -- when someone goes through our program, that carpenter is also going to be provided with equipment operation skills, either to move material from point A to point B. They're going to be taught equipment operation skills that might allow them to access a work area like aerial lifts. They could also be taught rigging skills, because that material that they need to move needs to be rigged in such a way that it's done safely and can be moved safely. In our world, that is what a skilled program would look like and consist of. It's not a one-dimensional, that carpenter needs finished work, framing, but they're going to be a form carpenter on a bridge. So there are restrictions within there where there are things that we have to teach, which costs money, it takes time and energy, that will never be applied on a project. Mr. Grothman. Okay. Thank you very much. Mr. Smucker. Thank you. The chair would just ask the witnesses to watch the clock. Intend to finish a question, but be aware of the time limitations. Mr. Grothman. It was the Congressman's fault. I tricked him. Mr. Smucker. All right. Now I would like to recognize Mr. Polis for 5 minutes of questions. Mr. Polis. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. You know, apprenticeships like we've discussed today are a critical tool in connecting Americans with good-paying jobs and lifelong careers to support themselves and their families. And the topic of apprenticeship is a very relevant one. It's also not a new one. For years, of course, unions in Colorado and many other States have been leading the way to connect people with apprenticeship programs to provide quality education and on-the-job training. Trevor Keller is one example. Joining the IBEW apprenticeship program gave Trevor the opportunity to get paid in the classroom while also receiving a comprehensive education and onsite training. They aren't just given an instruction sheet and told to operate without first knowing the mechanics and science behind electrical work. On top of classroom education, apprentices also are paid a living wage while working on the lines. Trevor is confident after finishing the IBEW apprenticeship that he has the skills and dollars to continue to his career as a journeyman. Mr. Hogan, thanks for joining us. I think a key part of Trevor's story is that quality apprenticeship programs aren't just on-the-job training programs, they're also education programs. Can you share more about Newport News Shipbuilding's education program and how you combine traditional learning with skills training? Mr. Hogan. Certainly. At Newport News, as I said, it's a mix of the craftsmanship, the scholarship, and the leadership. On the academic portion of it, students, when they start the apprentice program, very similar to what Mr. Peglow demonstrated, is they may go to classes 2 or 3 days a week, and the remainder of that week would be on-the-job training. They take classes everywhere from the mathematics, algebra, trigonometry, geometry, calculus. Then we get into more shipbuilding-related things like marine design, naval architecture, marine engineering. We do physics. We run the gamut of very high requirements in STEM-type classes. And that is part of the preparation not only for them to become a better skilled worker in our company, but then that also does marry up with the leadership component of it. So that they are not only just leaders in the company, but they are leaders within their trade discipline. Mr. Polis. Mr. Bennett, thanks for joining us as well. You mentioned in your testimony your company is 100 percent employee owned. And I'm excited your company has employees and employee ownership that can benefit from the value being created. I recently introduced a bill, the WORK Act, that encourages employee ownership as a business structure. Can you share more about your company's decision to be a 100 percent employee- owned company and how that is consistent with your values and your apprenticeship program? Mr. Bennett. Sure. I mean, it goes back many, many years now. But our philosophy is treating people with dignity and respect. And the founders of the organization made a very conscious decision that the people that helped build the organization and make it successful should reap the benefits of that. And so many years ago we converted to a 100 percent employee-owned organization. And where that adds value is our team members believe they have skin in the game in every single decision that they make. We choose to work safe, we choose to look out for one another, give back to our communities. And so that whole culture that we've established goes all the way back to our founders and our values. Mr. Polis. Thank you. And, Mr. Hogan, you also mentioned that some programs at the apprenticeship school can lead to an associate's or bachelor's degree. One benefit of apprenticeship programs is that you can earn a credential at the same time you earn a living wage. Can you talk more about how your program supports students' financial needs while they're in school? Does it allow you to serve a more diverse class of students, including people who may be older or have a family, who have a kid at home, those kinds of things? Mr. Hogan. Thank you for coming back to me as well, because I did want to further clarify that those classes that they take in their normal academics, now the schools is accredited such that they are transferable towards a 2-year degree at the community college level. They are then able to take that, if it's their choosing, and go to a 4-year institution. And they can often do that on their own time, while they're still working for the company, or we even grant educational leaves of absence for them to go do that. We do actually have apprentice programs set up on the advanced curriculum side where we have partnered with Old Dominion University and a person can extend their apprenticeship to where when they graduate they would actually have a 4-year degree from Old Dominion University in one of the engineering disciplines. As well, that education is entirely paid for. They graduate not only with a job, but that degree and zero student debt. Mr. Polis. Thank you. And I yield back. Mr. Smucker. Thank you. The chair would now like to recognize Mr. Allen for 5 minutes of questioning. Mr. Allen. Thank you, Chairman. And I want to thank the panel for coming in and talking about this important area of job training. And we've got 6.5 million jobs, I understand, that are open in this country for skill, for a skilled workforce, and we're having a hard time getting folks trained up for these positions. And, Mr. Bennett, I agree with your testimony that President Trump's executive order is an important first step in aligning workforce development with the industry demands. I wholeheartedly support our President's effort. He, like I, wants to get folks back to work in this country. That's why I came here. It's important that innovative methods the private sector is using to grow our skilled workforce are embraced and encouraged by the government. However, in Section 4 of the executive order, the Secretary of Labor has the ability to exclude an industry from this great new program if that industry has already effective, substantially widespread registered apprenticeship programs. Can you tell me -- and, of course, my industry was construction -- what it would mean if the construction industry was excluded from this apprenticeship system? Mr. Bennett. Yeah. I think if we were excluded, we're going to sell ourselves short as a country. And there's no doubt that apprenticeship model has been successful. But given the volume that we're facing in that skilled workforce shortage and what we're anticipating given the infrastructure bill that could possibly pass, that model, in itself, is not going to get us there. And as I said earlier in my testimony, the construction industry alone has not been built on registered apprenticeship programs. There has been workforce development going on since the beginning of time, some of which has been registered, some of which has not. But it's industry recognized. And there are many, many companies in this country -- in fact, in the construction industry 86 percent of it is done open shop. And many of those organizations are providing workforce development opportunities for their teams that's outside of that registered apprenticeship model. So I think it's very premature for us to eliminate anything at this stage of the game. We should understand, again, what is working, how do we replicate that. And not just within the registered model, because apprenticeship isn't just registered. There's apprenticeships that are nonregistered. And we're alive and well here today and can demonstrate how successful those programs are and show you where individuals who were making sandwiches have doubled their salaries and are now skilled craft professionals in our organization and can show you multiple examples of that. And we're just one little company based out of Maine. This is happening all across this country. And I'll just leave you with this quick. My driver this morning was from Ethiopia, moved here in 1996. Today he has his own business with five employees, and he was sharing with me how fortunate he is to be in this country, because up until sixth grade, he did not have shoes. And his story was just empowering, and so it makes me think, as we're sitting here today, what a wonderful opportunity this country has. We have more work than we have skilled people. We're not wondering how to put bread on the table or put shoes on our feet. We have opportunities to help the American citizens do just that. And that's our job, is to create those opportunities in multiple pathways so that we can provide what he's come all the way from Ethiopia for, to provide for his family. It's just a wonderful opportunity. Mr. Allen. It is. That's why America is a light into a different world. Mr. Peglow, I'd like to know some of the things you learned from working alongside an experienced technician that you wouldn't have learned if you only had classroom experience and no work component to your curriculum. Mr. Peglow. Some of the things that I've learned from other technicians are kind of what we call tricks of the trade, just different things that aren't in the books that are very career specific or job specific. Different jobs always have different little tricks. They're still safe tricks, but just quicker ways or things you learn from experience of doing different things. It just depends on what it is, anywhere from motors, to different tricks with welding, machining. They all have their own little tricks to them. Mr. Allen. So you're benefitting from their experience? Mr. Peglow. Yes, sir, very much so. Mr. Allen. And you'll be able to pass that on to the -- you'll be a mentor someday. That's great. As far as the -- and I'm just about out of time -- but what's important is that we've got to get 20, 25 million people back to work in this country. I thank you for your efforts on behalf of that. And please let me know how I can work with you. And I yield back. Mr. Smucker. Thank you. I'd like to now recognize Mr. DeSaulnier for 5 minutes of questioning. Mr. DeSaulnier. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and the Ranking Member. Thank you for this important hearing. I want to talk a little bit about the importance of, of course, everything we're talking about, but ultimately in my experience, I represent a part of California, a part of the Bay area that has a heavy concentration of our industrial belt. I know people don't believe that northern California, the Bay area, has industry, but we've got five refineries in the area that I've represented in local and State and now at the Federal level, and chemical plants, and they work well. But we have very high standards when it comes to apprenticeship standards. We require prevailing wage. It works because it is a high cost area. So in my experience one of the most difficult things -- and it's not saying I'd be against industry certification -- is making sure we're holding them. And the Federal Government's role in this is not just incentivizing, but making sure -- and, granted, Mr. Peglow, every job has tricks to it, and that's an art form that we should acknowledge -- but in the testing, making sure it's objective and we're getting the higher standards. Because the employers I talk to, the question isn't that they have jobs, as others said, or that there's not a workforce there, but they're not trained well enough. In a global economy, we can't fool people. We have to hire people to a high standard. So we should invest in these programs. We should look at programs that the employers are an equal partner in. Most of our programs are partnership with the employees. The employers have been in business for many, many years, doing specific projects in specific industries. So, Mr. Hogan, maybe you can help me just a little bit. How do we get those independent standards to make sure we verify, and what's the Federal Government's role to assuring that happens? In California we have a State apprenticeship board. Both Republican and Democratic governors have appointed members of that board. And they have very high standards, apprenticeship standards. And a lot of unaffiliated companies don't like those standards. They're freely able to compete with those standards. But we want to bring everybody up to a level to make sure that it's truly open competition, because in a global marketplace, if they're not skilled, we're not going to get them employed for very long. Mr. Hogan. It's a great question. And I've had that or something similar to it before. And it's also been posed, what advice would you give another company that was trying to start an apprenticeship program and model it somewhat after what we've got? And there's a couple components of that. One is we always start with having them contact their State or regional apprenticeship representative and get the standards on apprenticeship. And so that becomes a feeder to your registration process, is at least you've got some standards that you're working to that is recognized at the State level. If time permits, for the organization to benchmark other apprenticeships, because you can always learn something from somebody that has one established. We participate in, and we encourage them to seek out the American Apprenticeship Roundtable who shares best practices of apprenticeships across the Nation. And then working with their local community college system or technical work centers to fill the gaps on the scholastic portion of it that they may not be able to provide. Mr. DeSaulnier. And in terms of Federal opportunities for grants and incentives, how important is it to make sure that they are truly objective and based on these standards that are best practices and are objective standards? Mr. Hogan. And I think that's part of the challenge that we have, is having those standards and having them linked to some type of funding stream, I think, is important without them becoming overly burdensome, cumbersome, or costly on the organization that's trying to develop them. Again, only familiar with ours in the Commonwealth of Virginia. As I've stated earlier, we have found that not to be that difficult. They don't require revision unless we make major changes to it. It's really about providing that organization the details that we have on what are the work processes we're teaching, what are the academic components of that, what are the job rotations, and how do we assess the skills and abilities on a standard basis for all the employees involved in apprenticeship. Mr. DeSaulnier. Ms. Hughes, I struggle with -- I really believe, since I've come to Congress, that this is a country that's very different. So the magic sauce of getting these standards at a Federal level, but allowing for different States to come up with different approaches. So what works in northern California may or may not work in Kentucky. However, we have people who travel from your State, I imagine, certainly from Texas and Louisiana, to work at our chemical and petroleum industries. So they have to abide by our standards when they come into California. So certainly we can have both. We have to have both. You have to have freedom to decide what's best and what's working in Kentucky, but you can learn from other jurisdictions just as California can learn from Kentucky. So I wonder if you could -- if you have instances of that or any kind of comment? Ms. Hughes. I think it's very important that we do learn from each other, and that's the wonderful thing about Kentucky FAME. As companies come together, they share best practices about safety, about recruiting, and those types of things. And I do agree with you that we do need both in this country. I think all of the people on this panel agree to that, that we've got to get a skilled workforce. And we do want standards. I agree with Mr. Bennett wholeheartedly that we do not want different standards, because all the companies definitely want highly skilled and highly trained individuals. Mr. DeSaulnier. Thank you. I yield back. Mr. Smucker. Thank you. I would now like to recognize Mr. Lewis for 5 minutes. Mr. Lewis. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I have here a copy of our local paper, and the headline says: ``Shortage of Skilled Workers Squeezing Twin Cities Builders.'' In fact, there's a quote in here from Robert Heise, president of the Minnesota- North Dakota Chapter of Associated Builders and Contractors, quote: ``We have more work than we know what to do with.'' So this workforce training issue is front and center not only in the Twin Cities, in my home State of Minnesota, but across this country, as your testimony has shown, and the questions, and the give and take here. So let me explore this a little bit, Mr. Bennett, and start with you. If, in fact -- or, as I understand, the DOL's Office of Apprenticeship right now, after the regulations under the previous administration, there are 26 specific requirements relating to an apprenticeship program design. There's an apprenticeship-specific equal employment opportunity regulation. There's all sorts of hoops you've got to jump through. And, yet, an estimated 80 percent of all apprenticeships, or earn-and-learn programs, aren't registered. So what are those folks missing out on that they wouldn't otherwise? I mean, what is the downside? Obviously, you're out from under the regulations. But what are you missing out on, in your view, by not being registered or having these obstacles to a streamlined registration process? Mr. Bennett. I don't know that we're missing out on anything. And it might be more we're using the word registered versus recognized. And so those developmental programs that are taking place all across the country with those contractors that you referenced, I think what we're looking for is we're looking for recognition for all that hard work that's being put in place to develop our current workforce and our future workforce. And it's not that we're looking for it to be regulated, because it's been going on for years. And, like I said, it's been very successful. But at least be recognized so as you're coming into a new State and there are requirements that need to be met, having the ability to say, well, it doesn't have to just be in this model, those same expectations could be met in a different career path or on multiple pathways. Mr. Lewis. Well, as I understand it, though, you are exempt if you're registered or recognized from some Federal requirements that make it easier to conduct the program. You had mentioned earlier how the flexibility of your industry-led programs, many others as well, had developed these pipe welders for their 12-week program. That sort of flexibility, is that possible under a recognized or registered apprenticeship program, to do what that program did? Mr. Bennett. Well, your typical -- if I just took a typical, you know, the outline of a registered apprenticeship program, that's going to require -- I think the minimum is 144 hours, don't quote me on this, and a minimum of 2,000 worker. I think those are the basics and it increases from there. That can be restrictive, I mean, with an open shop, our open shop philosophy and are merit based. We want to progress those that have the ability to demonstrate the competency at their own pace. If they master a particular skill and can progress, we want them to progress and not be held back by the rest of their classmates. No different than if somebody needs remedial training. We want the opportunity to provide the remedial training without being handcuffed by the restrictions of a particular program. Mr. Lewis. One final quick question, and that is, under the President's executive order it provides that any industry- recognized apprenticeship program should be considered for an expedited or streamlined registration where possible. Except, as we've talked about, it will carve out, or in any sector in which the Department of Labor has registered apprenticeship programs that are already effective or widespread, they might be exempt from this expedited process. I mean, obviously, that would impair your ability to design some of these programs, correct? Mr. Bennett. Yes, it would. Yes. Mr. Lewis. All right. Thank you. I yield back. Mr. Smucker. Thank you, Mr. Lewis. I'd like to now welcome Mr. Norcross to the subcommittee. And hearing no objection, I recognize Mr. Norcross to question the witnesses for 5 minutes. Mr. Norcross. Thank you, chairman. This is something near and dear to my heart. I went to the other 4-year school, an apprenticeship. I'm a graduate of a registered apprentice program in electricity. I'm a journeyman wireman by trade long before I came here. And I have heard quite a bit of information coming here. The good news is, for the vast majority of it, we're all aligned. But in some cases, I think that there's potential for misinformation that I have heard today. The building trades crafts have over 1,900 training centers around this country. They spend $1.3 billion a year, not government money, private money, and if this was a university, a public university, it would be five times larger than Arizona State University, the third largest university in this system. If it was a K-12, it would be the largest school district. So, as you understand, we don't have to recreate the wheel here. It works, and it works very well. But there are some issues that come to mind when we start talking about what is successful, what works, and what doesn't. I hear the word ``flexible.'' There's a difference between an apprenticeship program, which is to become a journeyperson and skilled in that craft, versus continuing education, being flexible to adapt to market conditions. I don't think anybody would suggest to you, in 12 weeks, you will make a well-rounded welder who will build his career without additional training, maybe in very specific crafts, but that doesn't happen. Remarkably that, in the construction industry, where we just heard the claim that 80 percent of it is open shop, then why is it that the JATC, the union apprentices, provide 75 percent of the apprenticeship programs? It is backwards. If they're doing that much work, then you would think they would do that. I might suggest to you there's another reason, because as an apprentice, you can be paid less than the journeyman's wages. So I ask to you, Mr. Bennett, what's the graduation rate of the apprenticeship programs with your company? And in the -- your sector? Mr. Bennett. In our sector, I would have to get back to you with the specifics for our sector, but I can give you a statistics -- Mr. Norcross. Let me share with you what it is in New Jersey. For non-JATC programs, less than 30 percent of their apprentices graduate; with the JATC programs, north of 85 percent. And this is where we see the difference. Involvement from employers and employees makes it a much healthier program understanding what they go through. Look at that cue. That's massive change in a registered program. There were, let me see here, last year, 1,700 new apprenticeship programs. It doesn't seem that it is that hard because there's 21,000 registered apprentice programs in this country, many from your company. And here it is. Five steps, quick-start toolkit to how to start an apprenticeship program. We're not talking you need a Ph.D. in making an apprenticeship program. This is something that can be and has been done. Tax credits for those with apprenticeships. So hearing the statements that you come up with don't jive with what's going on in reality. The fact of the matter is there's a shortage now because we came off the worst recession for the construction industry since the Depression. It takes time to build that back up. But, lo and behold, the apprenticeships over the course of the last 6 years up exponentially in this all from our registered apprenticeship program. So, when we read the executive order, it makes perfect sense. With all the items that are going on in this country, why are you trying to fix a program that works better and has been instituted for over 100 years? I think it should be the benchmark going forward, and certainly, Mr. Bennett, I would like to hear your opinion about those graduation rates and the differences. Mr. Bennett. And if I could just respond to that. We're not here to say that the registered apprenticeship program is broken. We're here to share with you that there is another model that is taking place to the tune of we're investing $1.1 billion as well. Mr. Norcross. In nonregistered programs? Mr. Bennett. Nonregistered programs across this country. Mr. Norcross. Why wouldn't you register them if they're that easy? Mr. Bennett. Excuse me? Mr. Norcross. Why wouldn't you register your program since it is that easy? Mr. Bennett. The flexibility that is provided in these industry-recognized programs. Mr. Norcross. But you're in construction, 15 basic crafts. The electrons flow the same way in Maine as they do in New Jersey. Mr. Bennett. I completely agree, and that's why we're advocating there should be reciprocity because the electrons do flow the same, but there is not reciprocity amongst all the States with some of these programs. And I was reading a report and on the way down here this morning, the Aspen report, where it says that 50 percent of all registered apprenticeship programs that start within 1 year are eliminated. They don't finish. So it is not that program is broke. We're not here -- not arguing your point. What we want to convey is there is more than one way to develop skilled craft professionals in this country, and that's what we're trying to articulate. Mr. Norcross. So I heard -- and I see I'm out of time. We could spend a lot more time, but thank you for yielding the time. I appreciate it and the testimony that I heard. Thank you. Mr. Smucker. And, with that, I would like to again thank our witnesses for taking the time to testify before the subcommittee today, and I now recognize Ranking Member Davis for any closing remarks that she may be have. Mrs. Davis. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and on your first day in the chair, you have done a good job. Thanks so much. And to all of you really. You have provided excellent testimony. There have been some differences, and that's great for us to hear, frankly, and to try and move forward and become better educated. We have some folks who actually have experienced this more than others. And I think what we need to do is to continue to ask the questions and figure out the extent to which there is a better case to integrate the programs in some way that is understandable to the public and also to provide even, you know, a national registry, if you will, so that we're able to really understand where we are and, I hope, where we're going to go, because that's really what this is about, is trying to scale up programs that work for the American people and provide those great jobs and wages and make sure that young people know that they can aspire and think about at a pretty early age, hopefully, where they want to go with this. So we're delighted. I also wanted to put into the record the National Electrical Contractors Association statement, and appreciate all of the attention today. Thank you very much. Mr. Smucker. Without objection. [The information follows:] [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Mrs. Davis. I'm sorry, and the construction -- the other 4- year degree. Mr. Smucker. Without objection. [The information follows:] [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Mr. Smucker. Again, I would just like to thank the chair of this committee for scheduling this hearing on this really important topic. It was fascinating, and I know the ranking member earlier mentioned some of the other industries outside of what we traditionally think of for apprenticeships, that -- other businesses that are establishing apprenticeship programs. I know I just recently spoke to Zurich Insurance, which is a Swiss company who has established an apprenticeship program. So this model can really be extended well beyond what we think of in traditional apprenticeship programs. And, in fact, Switzerland, Germany, and many European countries are doing just that. So we don't have to build a model from scratch here. We can look for best practices in other countries and other organizations. And so we have talked about the need for business, that, in my area, it is a crisis. Businesses cannot fill jobs, and you know, I think our businesses in America are the best in the world at adapting to that changing business environment, and no one knows better than they in what skills and abilities the employees need in order to succeed. And I think today we heard some really great examples of programs that are working and programs where businesses are helping to lead the way to develop excellent education and workforce development programs that are really providing workers with the skills that are needed for these high-demand jobs. So I'm very pleased with the discussion that we have had today. I know the chair looks forward to working with all members of the committee. This really is not a partisan issue, and so I think this subcommittee and the committee looking forward to solutions that we can come up with and work with the administration to advance this. So thank you so much. Without objection, there being no further business, the subcommittee now stands adjourned. [Additional submissions by Mr. Courtney follow:] [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] [Whereupon, at 12:11 p.m., the subcommittee was adjourned.] [all]