[House Hearing, 115 Congress] [From the U.S. Government Publishing Office] INVESTING IN SMALL BUSINESSES: THE SBIC PROGRAM ======================================================================= HEARING BEFORE THE SUBCOMMITTEE ON AGRICULTURE, ENERGY, AND TRADE OF THE COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS UNITED STATES HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES ONE HUNDRED FIFTEENTH CONGRESS FIRST SESSION __________ HEARING HELD NOVEMBER 7, 2017 __________ [GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Small Business Committee Document Number 115-046 Available via the GPO Website: www.fdsys.gov __________ U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE 27-466 PDF WASHINGTON : 2018 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- For sale by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S. Government Publishing Office, http://bookstore.gpo.gov. For more information, contact the GPO Customer Contact Center, U.S. Government Publishing Office. Phone 202-512-1800, or 866-512-1800 (toll-free). E-mail, [email protected]. HOUSE COMMITTEE ON SMALL BUSINESS STEVE CHABOT, Ohio, Chairman STEVE KING, Iowa BLAINE LUETKEMEYER, Missouri DAVE BRAT, Virginia AUMUA AMATA COLEMAN RADEWAGEN, American Samoa STEVE KNIGHT, California TRENT KELLY, Mississippi ROD BLUM, Iowa JAMES COMER, Kentucky JENNIFFER GONZALEZ-COLON, Puerto Rico DON BACON, Nebraska BRIAN FITZPATRICK, Pennsylvania ROGER MARSHALL, Kansas RALPH NORMAN, South Carolina NYDIA VELAZQUEZ, New York, Ranking Member DWIGHT EVANS, Pennsylvania STEPHANIE MURPHY, Florida AL LAWSON, JR., Florida YVETTE CLARK, New York JUDY CHU, California ALMA ADAMS, North Carolina ADRIANO ESPAILLAT, New York BRAD SCHNEIDER, Illinois VACANT Kevin Fitzpatrick, Majority Staff Director Jan Oliver, Majority Deputy Staff Director and Chief Counsel Adam Minehardt, Staff Director C O N T E N T S OPENING STATEMENTS Page Hon. Rod Blum.................................................... 1 Hon. Brad Schneider.............................................. 2 WITNESSES Mr. Brett Palmer, President, Small Business Investor Alliance, Washington, DC................................................. 4 Mr. Thies Kolln, Partner, Aavin Private Equity, Cedar Rapids, IA. 5 Mr. Michael Painter, Managing Partner, Plexus Capital, Raleigh, NC............................................................. 7 Mr. Mark L. Walsh, Managing Director, Ruxton Ventures, Chevy Chase, MD...................................................... 9 APPENDIX Prepared Statements: Mr. Brett Palmer, President, Small Business Investor Alliance, Washington, DC................................... 27 Mr. Thies Kolln, Partner, Aavin Private Equity, Cedar Rapids, IA......................................................... 76 Mr. Michael Painter, Managing Partner, Plexus Capital, Raleigh, NC................................................ 82 Mr. Mark L. Walsh, Managing Director, Ruxton Ventures, Chevy Chase, MD.................................................. 87 Questions for the Record: None. Answers for the Record: None. Additional Material for the Record: None. INVESTING IN SMALL BUSINESSES: THE SBIC PROGRAM ---------- TUESDAY, NOVEMBER 7, 2017 House of Representatives, Committee on Small Business, Subcommittee on Agriculture, Energy, and Trade, Washington, DC. The Subcommittee met, pursuant to call, at 10:03 a.m., in Room 2360, Rayburn House Office Building, Hon. Rod Blum [chairman of the Subcommittee] presiding. Present: Representatives Blum, Chabot, Luetkemeyer, Comer, Bacon, Schneider, and Lawson. Chairman BLUM. Good morning. Thank you all for being here with us today. I call this hearing to order. Despite a downward trending unemployment rate and increasing signs of business optimism, small firms continue to face a rigid lending environment. Capital for the nation's small businesses, entrepreneurs, and startups is the difference between a Main Street company in my home State of Iowa turning on their lights or closing up operations for good. It could be the difference between making payroll and letting a great employee go. And I have been there and had to do that, so truer words cannot be spoken. While large companies finance their projects through debt and equity markets, small companies regularly utilize traditional bank lending to finance their endeavors. As a way to inject more equity into the small business ecosystem to address the gap in long-term financing, the SBA created the Small Business Investment Company program, also known as the SBIC program, in 1958. SBICs are for-profit entities that manage investment funds, but are licensed and regulated by the SBA. Through this unique structure, investors apply to receive an SBIC license which provides the ability to leverage private dollars with federal dollars for investments in high-growth small businesses. This program is what we are here to talk about today. This Committee has actively been studying the SBIC program for years. We examined two SBIC bills in the spring, one looking at the individual leverage limit and a second that looked at the threshold level in which a financial institution can invest in the SBIC. This program continues to be a topic of interest for this Committee. Today, we will hear from SBIC participants that can share with us how this program is operating on the ground and how it impacts communities around the nation. I am looking forward to hearing more about the role SBA plays in this program as well. From the issuance of leverage to the licensing process, it is important to know how SBA interacts with the SBICs. Like many of SBA's financial programs, where the federal government has a role, robust and thorough Congressional oversight is required to ensure taxpayer money is safeguarded and protected. This Committee strives to create an environment where small businesses can flourish, and this program fits into that formula. I appreciate all of the witnesses being here today. I look forward to your testimony. And I now yield to Ranking Member Schneider for his opening remarks. Mr. SCHNEIDER. Thank you, Chairman Blum. Thank you for calling this hearing. And I want to thank the witnesses for joining us today. Access to capital is essential for every business, but especially for smaller ones. Without it, most firms cannot make improvements, expand, or hire qualified works that they need to succeed. In 1958, Congress recognized the gap in the financial markets for long-term funding for growth-oriented small businesses and created the Small Business Investment Company Program. SBICs are privately owned and managed investment funds, licensed by the SBA, that use their own capital plus SBA guaranteed funds to make investments in small businesses. The SBIC program helps fill the gap in the capital markets for businesses that have outgrown the SBA's flagship 7(a) loan guarantee program but remain too small or high risk for the private equity industry. The key to the program's success is leveraging federal funds to expand the amount of private capital invested in promising small firms. SBA provides funding to qualified SBICs with expertise in certain sectors of the economy. SBICs then use their own funds and leverage from SBA to invest in these small businesses. Their actions have facilitated over 3 million jobs total and nearly $6 billion per year of investment in domestic small employers. To date, small business investment companies have assisted thousands of high-growth businesses, providing over $100 billion in capital. In this Congress, the House passed two pieces of legislation from this Committee that expand the SBIC program. The Small Business Investment Opportunity Act of 2017 increases the cap for the SBIC that manages just one company from $150 million to $175 million. And the Investing in Main Street Act of 2017 increases the percentage of capital and surplus banks and federal and savings associations can invest in an SBIC. Both measures seek to increase the flow of much-needed capital to small businesses. Despite these efforts, more work needs to be done, in particular to diversify the program. Greater access for women and minority-owned funds would, in turn, increase the dollars flowing to women and minority-owned small businesses. Similarly, additional efforts to invest in rural small businesses could spur economic growth in these areas. During today's hearing, I look forward to hearing from our witnesses on how we facilitate investment in our nation's entrepreneurs and small businesses. And I thank them in advance for their testimony. Thank you, and I yield back. Chairman BLUM. Thank you, Mr. Schneider. I would like to explain the timing. You may all be aware of how the lights work, but if not, I would like to take a second to explain that. You will have 5 minutes to deliver your testimony. The light will start out as green. When you have 1 minute remaining, the light will turn yellow. Finally, at the end of 5 minutes, it will turn red. And I ask that you try to adhere to that time limit. Also, if Committee members have an opening statement prepared, I ask that they be submitted for the record. And now I would like to introduce our distinguished panelists there. Our first witness is Brett Palmer. Mr. Palmer is the President of the Small Businesses Investor Alliance, also known as SBIA, an association that has a focus on the SBIC programs. We need a few more acronyms here, don't we? With over 9 years at SBIA, Mr. Palmer is well-versed in the intricacies of the program. His previous experience includes time on Capitol Hill and at the U.S. Department of Commerce. I appreciate you being here with us today. Our next witness is Thies Kolln. Mr. Kolln is a Partner at AAVIN Private Equity in my home district of Cedar Rapids, Iowa. Go Hawks. Mr. Kolln has spent approximately 15 years at AAVIN, which focuses on late-stage and expansion-stage financing. Prior to AAVIN, Mr. Kolln spent time working for the Boston Consulting Group in Chicago and on the startup management team at Orbitz. He has also practiced corporate law at Kirkland & Ellis in Chicago. Thank you for joining us today. It is always great to hear the perspective of a fellow Iowan. Our next witness is Michael Painter. Mr. Painter is Cofounder and the Managing Partner at Plexus Capital in Raleigh, North Carolina, where they focus on middle market business. Prior to cofounding Plexus Capital, he worked for RBC Bank and investment firms in both New York and North Carolina. It is a pleasure to have you with us today, Mr. Painter. And I yield now to Ranking Member Schneider to introduce the remaining witness. Mr. SCHNEIDER. Thank you. It is my honor to introduce Mr. Mark Walsh, the Managing Director of Ruxton Ventures here in Washington, a Washington- based private equity firm that invests in technology, media, and education companies. Prior to this position, Mr. Walsh served as SBA Associate Administrator for the Office of Investment and Innovation. In this role, he oversaw all SBIC, SBIR, Accelerator, Incubator, and other growth activities at SBA and was appointed to key committees at the Securities and Exchange Commission and Department of the Treasury. Before his government service, he had a 30-year career in technology, media, venture capital, and angel investing. Mr. Walsh is a graduate of Union College and received his MBA from Harvard. Welcome, Mr. Walsh. Chairman BLUM. Thank you, Mr. Schneider. I appreciate all of our witnesses being here today. Mr. Palmer, you are recognized for 5 minutes. You may begin. STATEMENTS OF MR. BRETT PALMER, PRESIDENT, SMALL BUSINESS INVESTOR ALLIANCE, WASHINGTON, DC; MR. THIES KOLLN, PARTNER, AAVIN PRIVATE EQUITY, CEDAR RAPIDS, IA; MR. MICHAEL PAINTER, MANAGING PARTNER, PLEXUS CAPITAL, RALEIGH, NC; AND MR. MARK L. WALSH, MANAGING DIRECTOR, RUXTON VENTURES, CHEVY CHASE, MD STATEMENT OF BRETT PALMER Mr. PALMER. Thank you. My name is Brett Palmer. I am president of the Small Business Investor Alliance. I would like to thank the chairman, Ranking Member Schneider, and Congressman Lawson for being here today, and the rest of the members of the Subcommittee and the staff. Thank you for giving us the opportunity to share what we know about the SBIC program and small business investing and to answer your questions about it. The SBIA is a trade association of small business investors that includes the SBIC industry. The goal of the SBIA is to promote a healthy ecosystem system for small business investing, one that benefits both small businesses and their investors and thereby promoting economic growth and job creation. Small business investment companies have been around since 1958, and what was true in the 1950s will always be true: Small businesses need external, patient capital to grow and thrive and it is really hard to access that type of capital. Debenture and non-levered SBICs have increased the amount of small business investment capital, with almost $6 billion invested in fiscal year 2016, the last year of which we have full data. All SBIC investments must be used for domestic small businesses with at least 25 percent going to even smaller enterprises. SBICs invest across a broad range of industries and across a broad range of geographies. And actually I think Congressman Lawson's district runs from the northern part of Florida, and Mr. Kolln here actually, I think, is looking at an investment that would connect that corridor from Tallahassee to Jacksonville. I will let you talk about that. It is common to see investments in manufacturing in low and moderate income areas via SBICs. And this industry and geographic spread is important, because SBICs are often the first institutional capital into small businesses, which benefit from their capital but also from their professional help in scaling up their business, professionalizing themselves, and building up boards. The program is having the best and lowest loss rate in its 59-year history, which is important, because taxpayer protection is the highest priority for the SBIC industry. There is currently unprecedented private sector interest in getting capital into small businesses via SBIC funds, and the private sector is the leading critical component to making the program work effectively. It is a market-driven program. A recent Library of Congress study found that SBIC-backed businesses created 3 million new jobs over the course of their study and 6.5 million jobs. That is a period that included the Great Recession and the tech bubble busting. The study was performed with researchers from Duke's and Pepperdine's business school and they found that debenture- backed SBICs created, on average, about 125 new jobs and non- levered, more equity-oriented SBIC investors created over 530 new jobs per small business receiving investment, which is pretty big numbers. Those are not uniform across every small business but the average. Between these two types of investments, over 7 percent of net new jobs in the United States came from SBIC-backed businesses. That is an extraordinary number for a little known program, but that is what the program is supposed to do. These quiet successes were achieved while the debenture program was one of the only major SBA programs that was able to maintain a zero subsidy rate, which matters. Again, this covers the period of the Great Recession and the tech bubble bursting for the debenture program. And with the help of Congress and the SBA, there has been significant operation reforms made over the past 8 years or so and have been producing the positive results that you have sought. With this program having a great track record, there are always areas for improvement that could be made both by the private sector, on our side, as well from the government, because there are many more communities that would benefit from having access to this type of capital. With private capital investment at record highs, we would like to see that spread across more of the country, to more communities, to more businesses, across more sectors, because there has been good stuff that has occurred, but more certainly can and should be done. And with that, I would like to take a moment to thank the Committee for passing those two bills that were mentioned before. They are simple, commonsense bills that will help get more capital out there to these worthy small businesses. And with that, thank you for your time. Chairman BLUM. Thank you, Mr. Palmer. Mr. Kolln, you are recognized for 5 minutes. STATEMENT OF THIES KOLLN Mr. KOLLN. Thank you. Thank you, Chairman Blum, Ranking Member Schneider, and Member Lawson, for the opportunity to testify here today and for holding this hearing. Access to capital is a tremendously important issue for small businesses across the country, and the SBIC program effectively helps to resolve that issue. I am eager to provide you with my perspective as an SBIC fund manager and also a past member of the SBIA board. My name is Thies Kolln, and I am a partner of AAVIN Private Equity, a private equity firm based in the heart of the Midwest. Our central office is in Cedar Rapids, Iowa. We have, at the time, two regional offices, in Madison, Wisconsin, and in Kansas City, and cover our Midwest footprint through those. I joined AAVIN in 2002, so I have been there for 15 years now, and it was a return to my home city of Cedar Rapids. At AAVIN we stay true to our roots by focusing on helping small regionally based businesses grow. We specialize in late- stage and expansion-stage financings, and we partner with strong management teams that seek long-term business growth. Our focus is on smaller investment opportunities, and they are concentrated mostly in the upper Midwest States, such as Iowa and surrounding States, although we do invest nationally. And as Brett mentioned, we have one company now that we invested in about a year ago THAT is based in Jacksonville and recently acquired another company to help it expand into Tallahassee. So we are covering the northern Florida market with that. It is a company that does precast concrete for road expansions and culverts and wastewater management mainly. We have extensive private equity experience. There are seven members of our investment team. We have made investments in over 300 companies throughout our careers. Through our firm's history, just in Iowa, we have helped deploy $34 million in capital that helped create or sustain over 6,000 jobs. Those numbers may not mean a lot in a place like Manhattan, but they do for Iowa. These investments produce great growth for small businesses, as well as returns for our investment partners, which includes repayment in full to SBA and the American taxpayer. I have got some more detail in my written testimony, but I will outline a little bit about the SBIC program. It has a rigorous licensing process for prospective funds, which ensures taxpayer protection and safeguards the program's reputation. One requirement for licensing is that management teams have extensive prior investment experience and good investment track records. We meet that demand. Our firm's experience dates back to the start of the SBIC program in 1959, and we have basically over 40 years of continuous SBIC management experience in our firm. Repeat licensing like this is a good thing as it demonstrates to prospective small business partners our previous fund successes, our commitment to serving this undercapitalized market, and demonstrates to the taxpayer that we are good stewards of tax dollars. We have a history of on- time payments to SBA and overall compliance, with clean examinations without findings. We strongly support the SBIC program because it provides the opportunities to supplement our capital with up to two times more capital to deploy to small businesses to support their growth. Given the increase in concentration of capital among large funds and institutions, it is difficult to find capital with a dedicated strategy of investing in small businesses and in small funds. And it is questionable whether many of the small funds like AAVIN could even continue to fund small businesses if it were not for the SBIC program. We are often the first providers of institutional capital into small businesses. We help professionalize small businesses and make sure they have fundamentally solid operations and partner with strong management teams to do so. I will give a little bit of a history or a little bit of some stories about some of our investments. We have made over 26 investments in Iowa. Our most recent was just completed last month in Happy Joe's Pizza & Ice Cream. I am sure you are familiar with that, Mr. Blum. Chairman BLUM. Absolutely. Mr. KOLLN. It is a family-run pizza parlor chain that was founded in 1972. It has 54 locations across Iowa and other Midwestern States. We have already hired additional people to help it on a growth strategy and are right now looking at additional locations to grow out the operations. Chairman BLUM. [Inaudible] Mr. KOLLN. He is still involved in it, yes. He is part of the management team now. Well, Joe is retired. His son Larry is still involved. So that is just an example of our investing in Iowa. And without the SBIC program we would not have had our successful history of deploying growth capital to American small business. The SBIC program has effectively helped us leverage our private capital that we are able to raise and invest in small businesses. Thank you for holding this hearing. And I encourage the Committee and this Congress to continue to fully support the program so it may expand, support more domestic small businesses, and create even more American jobs. I look forward to answering any questions you may have. Chairman BLUM. Thank you, Mr. Kolln. Let the record reflect that Happy Joe's Pizza has some pretty darn good taco pizza. Love it. Mr. Painter, you are now recognized for 5 minutes. STATEMENT OF MICHAEL PAINTER Mr. PAINTER. Thank you, Chairman Blum, Ranking Member Schneider, and Mr. Lawson for having us here today. So I have been involved in the SBIC program for over 20 years. My partners and I used to work at a small regional bank in North Carolina called Centura Bank, and we had a fund that served to provide the growth capital that went beyond what the traditional bank could provide. And in 2004 we have been out on our own and formed our first independent SBIC, and we have now invested in 87 companies that employ collectively thousands of people. So we have made a big impact, and we are one example of many SBIC managers across the country who are making similar impacts. My message today is really about three things. One, this is the most impactful and best example of a public-private partnership that I know of. Second, it is a program that supports a perpetually underserved area of the market. And third, it is impacting real lives. It is easy to talk about our program and our business in numbers and returns. It is ultimately about real people, real companies, real communities, and impacting lives and families. As far as a program, public-private partnership that makes sense, I think the key here that I know you all understand, but I hope more people on the Committee and in Congress understand, is that all of the dollars that we raise from the private markets are at risk first, ahead of any Federal guarantees. That is a critical part of the program and why it has been so successful. So in our case, we have 56 banks, 130 individuals, 18 family offices, and 9 institutions that have invested $475 million with us. That all is there protecting Federal guarantees. So our dollars would be lost first, before the Federal guarantees would be hit. So that is a big differentiator in the public-private partnership world. I also think you have a staff that has been there for a long time that is driven by the purpose of the program. They are motivated by the purpose and the impact of the program, which is measurable and meaningful. And we have 50 years-plus of success in this program. So I don't know of any other public-private partnership that has had that level of success. We also support a perpetually underserved area of the market. There are over 100,000 small businesses in the United States that have $10-$100 million in sales. Roughly half of those are owned by somebody over the age of 40. So you have this big portion of the market, roughly $2 trillion of value, that has to transition to the next generation of owner-operators. Public companies have ready access to the public markets to effect those transitions each and every day. The private markets don't have that luxury, particularly at the small end of the market. I have been in this market for 20-plus years. It is perpetually underserved. You have fund managers that come into our market, they have success, and they go up market, because it is easier to do 10 deals and grow by doing 10 bigger deals than it is to do 10 deals, then 20 deals. It takes a lot of fixed cost. We look at 100 opportunities to invest in 1. So to really provide capital to small businesses, you have to be committed to building a real business and putting infrastructure in place, and that is not possible without the SBA program. And back to the real driver of this. We do impact real lives. And I think telling stories about those lives is a good way to visualize it for me. We have got a company, design shop, in Orlando, Florida. This is Doug and Sherri Hughes, husband and wife, started this company in 2000, and they serve the trade show market. So they help companies prepare the materials they need for trade shows and they now employ 50 people. So husband and wife, 2000, start a business that now employs 50 people, impacting their families, not just those 50 people, and their community. Another example is Huseby in Charlotte, started by Scott Huseby. He is a third-generation court reporter, comes from a long line of court reporters. Saw a need to professionalize this industry. He now employees 50 people at Huseby, and, more importantly, he engages with over 1,800 court reporters across the country to provide a steadier flow of business to people all over the country. So I look forward to taking questions about the program. I care a lot about the program and about the purpose. It is an impactful program. And I think the more stories that get out there about the people behind it, the more support there will be for it. Thank you for having us. Chairman BLUM. Thank you, Mr. Painter. I now recognize Mr. Walsh, a former venture capitalist, for 5 minutes. STATEMENT OF MARK L. WALSH Mr. WALSH. Thank you. Good morning. My name is Mark Walsh. And from late 2015 until January 19 of this year, I ran the Office of Investment and Innovation, OII, or as we call it, Oy, at the SBA here in Washington, D.C. My area oversaw, as was said, all SBIC, SBIR, and Incubator, Accelerator programs. It was my first job in government. Before that, for 35 years or more, I had a career in technology, the internet, and media with senior or C-Suite positions at a wide variety of companies, including America Online, GE, HBO, VerticalNet, and more. For the last 17 years, I have been an active angel investor and venture investor for a wide variety of startups and have served on the board of directors for many of those companies and other high-growth venture-backed entities. I have also served as chairman of the Bipartisan Policy Center here in Washington, D.C., the best think tank in town, in my personal opinion. The SBIC program is one of the most innovative, financially successful, and well-structured government programs in existence, period, close quote. But I left the program almost 10 months ago, and some recollections and remembrances are dimmed by time. Also, my opinions are my own and are not meant to reflect anyone else's or any other agenda. As was said, the SBIC program takes low-interest debt and provides it to professionally managed domestic venture capital and private equity funds. These funds need an SBIC license to get the investment. The license application and approval process is super rigorous and helps avoid mismanaged or ill-targeted funds from receiving taxpayer dollars. Further, a licensee reports all significant investment activities to the OII on a regular quarterly basis, and there are annual on-site inspections by OII trained teammates. In short, OII is as vigilant an investor as any in the private market, if not more so. However, as we all know, investment entails risk, so OII also has a trained team of workout experts who help funds that ran array of financial health and, in some cases, assumed ownership and control of failed funds and disposed of the assets at admirable salvage valuations. But make no mistake: The amount of unrecoverable investment was minuscule and was the envy of the private sector. The SBIC program is a fabulous example of a public-private partnership, as was mentioned by my colleagues. My colleagues in the organization and teammates were as motivated, talented, and professional as any I have worked with in my private sector career. Some of them are here today. And I enjoyed my all-too- short stint immensely. But I was asked here to address some ways to improve the SBIC program. Nothing is perfect, and there are a few areas I would like to address if I were still in charge. Number one, outreach. We made extraordinary progress during my time in discovering new funds and new types of funds and in meeting and engaging more diverse fund managers--gender, demographic, geographic, and market-focused diversity--more than prior efforts. This happened because my teammates and I made it a priority, and I would encourage the Committee to make sure the program pursues that with vigor. Second, promote and award certain types of funds. Impact funds, which are aimed at social, environmental, educational, or institutional improvement, as opposed to pure profit, are important. The program should be more able to encourage impact funds with lower interest rates, more attractive payback options, or even faster application processing. And speaking of that, number three, streamlining the license process. I am sure you guys would agree that. The amount of paperwork expected of a license applicant and license holder is heavy. OII and the program should continue their efforts to use available technologies to streamline these processes. Fourth, equity ownership. OII should have the ability to receive a small amount of equity in the companies its capital invest in. SBICs have held debt stakes in many iconic companies. For instance, an SBIC in 1977 held over 4 percent ownership in a small technology company called Apple. Imagine if we had that 4 percent ownership stake today. OII should continue efforts to create ownership upside for American taxpayers through this program with equity ownership. Fifth, more private sector partnerships. During my stint, teammates and I created a wonderful board diversity initiative called ONBoard, the Open Network for Board Diversity, with a partner, LinkedIn, the professional social network. There are many innovative private sector companies who would be partners in new opportunities that OII should be freer to pursue. And, lastly, networking opportunities between funds and companies. OII is a natural clearinghouse for a wide variety of data it collects about its funds and the companies that it invests in, as you heard from my colleagues to my left. It should have, in my opinion, more open access to the data for industry observers, companies, funds, and analysts. To conclude, there are improvements and opportunities that I could detail beyond that, but these are some that I saw that had great potential when I was at the agency. And lastly, let me also mention the SBIA, or Small Business Investor Alliance. They are the industry association focused on the SBIC marketplace, as you heard Brett Palmer, their CEO, testify a moment ago. Their staff, management, members, and board were very helpful to me as I learned the program, and they were great partners for our initiatives. I can't thank them enough for their productive role in the ongoing success of the SBIC program. Thank you for inviting me today. And now I and my colleagues are ready to help with any questions and comments you may have. Chairman BLUM. Thank you, Mr. Walsh. Due to Ranking Member Schneider's tight time schedule, I will reserve my time until the end. And I will now recognize Mr. Schneider for 5 minutes of questions. Mr. SCHNEIDER. Thank you. And, again, I want to thank all of the witnesses for being here and sharing your experience and your perspectives on a program that clearly is making a difference in communities across the country, in particular in the heartland, and we need to continue to do that. I just want to take the opportunity to touch on one issue. I think one added value of the SBIC program is the leverage it provides, the ability to work with public-private partnership. But I know from experience, I know from your submitted testimony, that there are many other added-value aspects to this. For example, the involvement of the SBIC lenders with the portfolio companies. I would like to open it up and have you touch on some of those additional benefits that are provided to your portfolio companies. Mr. PALMER. Let me start. It is important, because this isn't just money. You are getting actual expertise. And I hear it all time from our members. We actually have recently partnered with Ohio State, their business school. There is something called the National Center for the Middle Market that GE Capital funded to train their portfolio companies. Well, GE Capital got broken up and went six ways to Sunday around the world. It got complicated. But they still had this training platform there. We have now partnered with Ohio State, and actually today one of these trainings sessions is going on, where portfolio companies of SBICs are able to attend, and it is a platform for training them how to scale up their business, how to attract talent, how to retain talent, how to really grow their business and scale up in a professional, organized way. And that is something that we are doing and in a really concise, organized, dedicated feature just for SBIC-backed businesses. And that is going well. That is one example of one of the things that we are doing. Mr. PAINTER. I think that is a really important example. The small businesses we invest in, they don't need to invent new strategy. I mean, they know how to run their business, they know how to manufacture their product or deliver their service. What they haven't done before is scale that business. So they need tools to learn how to do that. It is basic stuff, basic blocking and tackling. We actually have four of our operating company professionals at the Ohio State event this week, and we have two of our internal people there so that we can help learn ourselves better how to train our other companies. And that is one thing we are focused on, is we have right now one full-time operating partner, so somebody who has run a small business that is now working with four of our companies to help them with their growth and putting in the frameworks that are needed to help grow a business. And we are committed to growing that platform. That is a key point, that it is not money. The money is important. That is the driver of us coming in. But we also have to provide more value than just dollars to make an impact. Mr. SCHNEIDER. Mr. Kolln. Mr. KOLLN. And we are, as a small fund, and even by SBIC standards a small fund, we are almost always the first institutional capital, the first, other than family money, that has been in the businesses that we invest in. Sometimes they have never even had a bank loan before. So it really is the first kind of outside capital, outside advisors, outside board members that they take on in these businesses, and it is a big step toward professionalizing them. And one of the key things we do is help them add the management talent and complete the management team that is there to help run and grow the business. Mr. SCHNEIDER. Mr. Walsh, as you go, as you give your answer, also touch on how to try to expand the outreach to more minorities and women-owned businesses. Mr. WALSH. Fair enough. If I just might say, if you read the press, it seems like all this money is going to, like, hip companies in Silicon Valley and for the next Snapchat or whatever. But, in fact, the gentlemen to my left and the men and women who work with them are on the front line of entrepreneurship. These are first-time investors in the lunch bucket companies that make this Nation great. These are companies that aren't that sexy in many cases, but they are the people and the places that employ people sustainably. So that is my answer to the first part. To the second part of your question, it really ended up being just going out there and shaking the tin cup. I mean, my colleagues and I, during my stint, literally went to every conference, every gathering, ads in newsletters, met folks like the men to my left and other men and women, and just tried to reach out to gender and racially diverse fund management. And more importantly, tried to exhort and encourage those funds to find companies that were owned and operated by diverse management teams. And a final point. This ONBoard initiative that I mentioned was a way to get diverse directors into those private companies, because a lot of times these companies had a board of directors that all the last name, because they are a family- owned company. So when they were trying to expand the expertise of their board of directors, we would tell them to search our area on LinkedIn for the resumes of domain expertise people with diverse backgrounds and gender diverse and racially diverse elements to bring those people on the boards of directors. Mr. SCHNEIDER. I think that is important. Oftentimes, these companies have their board meetings when they shave. And so it is important to expand that. Mr. PALMER. Actually, one thing I would like to add to that, Mr. Schneider, if it is all right, is we have tried very hard to do that, and there is more to be done. Over the course of 9 years, our chair of the board, four of our nine chairs of the board, are women. In the private equity industry that is unheard of. That is not 50 percent, but it is progress. There is some more to be done. And Mark, who did a fantastic job when he was running the program, did push that, and more can be done. I think one of the barriers, too, as far as the fund manager side is new funds coming in, it is a risk to go through this regulatory process that really is the size of a telephone book with hundreds of thousands of dollars of expense. You want to make sure you can get through it. And so it is reputational risk, it is personal financial risk. Having some clarity as far as what that is and getting that streamlined would really benefit getting a broader range of gender, race, and geography from where we don't have it now. Mr. SCHNEIDER. Great. Thank you. And my time has long expired, but thank you for your answers. I yield back. Chairman BLUM. Thank you, Mr. Schneider. I will now recognize myself for 5 minutes. Mr. Walsh, I did the mental math. I think 4 percent of Apple today would be about $40 billion that we would have. Mr. WALSH. I think a tad less, but it is a heck of a lot of money, Mr. Chairman. Chairman BLUM. I will take a tad of 40 billion. Mr. Palmer, I think you mentioned in your testimony that we are experiencing our best loss rates ever. What are those loss rates? I was on a billion-dollar bank board for 15 years and I was Chairman of the Director's Credit Committee. So if our loan loss ratio ever got really low, sometimes we would ask: Are we taking enough risk or taking enough chances in loaning money? Could you address both? Mr. PALMER. That is an excellent question. The losses are the lowest, and the program has run at zero subsidy for a long time, and that is good, ever since Congress reformed that back in the 1990s. It is a mark of industry pride that has been able to maintain that zero subsidy, we want to take that case. The measure that shows up as far as the losses is annual charge. The SBA charges a fee on the leverage as a calculation to offset what they think the loss history has been. It is now down to 22 basis points on top of the leverage. Frankly, there is a little bit of industry concern that that maybe is too low, one, from a loss side; but, two, also making sure--look, everyone likes low fees, but we want to make sure we are maintaining that zero subsidy rate. And so that 22 basis points which is calculated is low, and that is fine, but that is assuming that things are going to keep going the way they are now, which is great guns. So maybe we want to take a look at relooking at that fee and maybe setting a floor on that fee so that there is always enough of a cushion in the future to maintain a zero subsidy rate. But the investments themselves, because of the private capital being the first loss position, you have to lose all your own money first before the taxpayer money is exposed, which is different from 7(a) and 504. It really does align things in a good way as far as making good decisions and makes it hard to lose money. It is not that it is not possible. You can do it. People have risen to that challenge. Chairman BLUM. Including the federal government. Mr. PALMER. Including the Federal Government. Quite, frankly, this is a case study in the Federal Government working. And that doesn't get much attention too often. But this really--it really is. And so the loss rates are very low. They could do more risk, frankly. One of the things that they did was cleaning up the licensing program to minimize risk in 2008--2009, 2010, really, which was really helpful in filling this massive capital void that existed back then. But at the same time, we ought to be taking a look smaller funds. It is harder to get a big fund in a smaller State, Rocky Mountain West and others, and the smaller funds are riskier. So maybe the program does need to look at allowing some smaller funds to more rural areas, smaller cities, to facilitate their market where a $200 million fund might be too big. But having funds in Boise or in Portland or in Colorado, there are no SBIC funds in Colorado. I mean, that is a pretty big State. There are investments there. But we need to get more smaller funds out to some of these smaller cities and smaller towns across the country. Chairman BLUM. Thank you. Mr. Kolln, a lot of Members on this Committee represent rural areas. I am one of them. You are from my district. Can you talk to me a little bit about the challenges, if there are unique challenges, I assume so, in rural district, rural lending, rural startups versus urban areas? Mr. KOLLN. The biggest challenges in rural areas are just that you don't have the concentration of companies. You don't have as many companies. You don't have as many managers to hire to start companies and to help grow companies. So it is really the challenges are finding businesses, finding enough businesses to make a fund work. And that is why, as Mr. Palmer mentioned, we run a smaller fund. And I think you have to be willing to run smaller funds. And the SBIC program is a great way to do that to be able to invest in these smaller areas. But the challenges are finding the businesses and finding talent and to help the companies grow. Chairman BLUM. Thank you. My time is about expired. I have more questions, so I will do it in a second round of questioning. I would now like to recognize the Ranking Member of the Subcommittee on Health and Technology, my colleague from Florida, Mr. Lawson, for 5 minutes. Mr. LAWSON. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. And thank you all for being here. And I am real happy to see the collaboration between Tallahassee and Jacksonville. It is quite interesting. Districts separated by 200 miles. But recently, in the last couple of months, we have had women-owned businesses before the Committee, and minorities, women before the Committee. And the staff has told us that women-owned businesses are the fastest growing businesses in America. But each one of those groups came in, and they complained about access to capital. And I was wondering, just listening to the testimony this morning, it would appear that there must be some other factors involved other than the business people coming in saying they need access to capital, how they had to go to uncles, aunt, grandparents, and so forth. I thought maybe you could share some light on why this exists. And I will tell you the reason why. In 1978, when I left coaching at Florida State, and I spent some time in Iowa, University of Iowa, needing just $10,000, and going from place to place trying to get those $10,000 to go into business. That was 39 years ago. Today, I don't think that should be an issue for most people, even though I was able to eventually get it. And so what is going on? I don't want to talk too much because I got some other questions to ask. But what is going on about access to capital for women and minorities today, Mr. Palmer? Mr. PALMER. There are challenges for all small businesses. They are particularly acute for women and minorities, no question about it. And if you look at the numbers, that bears it out. It varies on a number of ways. The SBA, I am not an expert in all of SBA's program, but you are talking about $10,000-type sizes, they have a micro loan program that serves that. That is sort of below the scale of where the SBICs are. Most of the SBICs are generally investing in businesses with a million dollars or more. So, I mean, every small business would love a million dollars or more. But some of them can't absorb it yet. I think some of it is not knowing who to reach out to, sort of the human circles associated with this. And this goes to Mark's comment about reaching out. Reaching out to a broader array of small businesses in communities. The SBA needs to get out there. The fund managers need to get out there and do more. There was actually a hearing on the Senate side on this issue a couple weeks ago, and one of the things they mentioned, which is a true problem, which is if a small business is women owned or minority owned, in many cases they can lose that classification if they get institutional investment into them, which doesn't help them. Many of them are accessing government contracts and things, and most of the investments aren't in government-contract related businesses. But that is an unintended consequence for accepting outside capital that is designed to help them to fulfill a capital access gap, and now they are being sort of hurt by it. So there is some tweaks that could be made to address some issues like that. Does that change the underlying issue? No. I think the biggest thing is just getting out there and beating the bushes, more to Mark's statement. And Mark has really been committed to this, to do more of it. The chair of our board, her fund, by design, invests more than half of her fund, it is called Ironwood Capital in Connecticut, in women and minority and low income areas. So it can be and is done, but it isn't done universally. Mr. LAWSON. And Mr. Walsh, you stated that in Washington, D.C., you say that this is one of the best advocates for businesses and stuff, than anyplace else. How did this compare with--and I know I don't have much time--but minority and women-owned business access to capital that you observe on the research that you all are involved in? Mr. WALSH. Well, it is one of these questions that is always worth pursuing as vigorously as possible, because it is not only a question, it is a mandate. It is a proven fact that corporations that have diverse boards of directors, gender and racial diversity, perform better, their stock price performs better than companies that don't. So to not have a diverse board of directors and a diverse outlook is actually hurting your shareholders. But to get to access to capital, investors look at risk. They look at the risk of where they are going to put their dollars and what the outcome will be. And the challenge that we saw in SBIC, to some extent, but also the SBA, for these women- owned businesses and minority-owned businesses, is that they needed to be better, bluntly, at describing their risk and their ability to scale up. Because an investor wants to see a company that will scale up and increase in size, have more employees, grow revenue. So the SBA has done a good job, but I think we can never rest on any laurels in helping those companies build their business plan, describe what they do, and help make the case to investors that they can grow and scale, because otherwise why would they would take investment and why would an investor write a check? So there are some women-owned venture capital firms, there are some minority-aimed venture capital firms that chase deals that are--companies that are run by minorities or women management teams. I think we can never have enough of those, and I think the SBIC program actually encourages more of those than currently exist, and that is why the public-public partnership element is so key. Mr. LAWSON. Okay. With that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back. Chairman BLUM. Thank you, Mr. Lawson. What kind of a year is Florida State basketball going to have this year? Mr. LAWSON. They should be great. We didn't do well right now in football, but I am looking forward to them doing better this year. Chairman BLUM. Thank you very much. I would now like to recognize my colleague from Kentucky, Mr. Comer, for 5 minutes. Mr. COMER. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. My first question is for Mr. Painter. Are the regulations that SBA has in place to oversee the SBIC program working? And are they sufficient for the size of the program? Mr. PAINTER. So I think if you go back to 2009, there were roughly 315 SBICs. Today there are roughly 315 SBICs. And there has been a shift in terms of the number of debenture SBICs. I do think there is adequate oversight. I think there are some fixes that can be made with us working with SBA on some just practical changes in the licensing process and oversight process where you have some well-intentioned standard operating procedures that have unintended impacts. As an example, we close roughly one new investment per month. And just because of the way licensing is set up, we would have been in perpetual standstill and not able to get licensed if we didn't get a special waiver in the licensing process, because when you make a new investment, you have to refile your application. So by definition, we would have just been perpetually filing every month. Some I think there are some commonsense changes that can be made within the standard operating procedures that can really help improve the efficiency and oversight. Mr. COMER. Okay. Mr. Walsh, you described the licensing process and the amount of paperwork as being heavy. Are there improvements that can be made in the program to address the concern and the bureaucracy? Mr. WALSH. So as I mentioned in my testimony, it was my first job in government, and I was shocked, shocked, I tell you, to find that there is a lot of paperwork in government. Mr. COMER. Me too. Mr. WALSH. So it is said. I think the organization has made progress in allowing these documents to be digital so that the access is able to be granted to specific sets of the applicant and other parts of the SBIC team. So digitizing all the documents actually is step A. Step B is making those documents standardized across various elements. I mean, you just heard an example where a fund is asked to start the cycle over every single time. So I know this sounds maybe too simplistic, but having what they call data rooms, where digital access to the types of data and having the actual forms that you fill out be digitized, so you can fill them out online, track them online, you the applicant, and then the folks at the SBIC program, that, I think, would go a long, long way to shrinking the amount of time and effort and paperwork to getting approved. Mr. COMER. So how does the SBA interact with the SBICs with respect to the licensing process? Beyond licensing, how do they work together? Mr. WALSH. Well, the licensing process can take anywhere from 3 to more than 3 months. It is typically around 8 or 9 months, I think, was the average when I was there, to get approved. Then the fund has access to our capital. Every month or, as was mentioned, every quarter, they put a full report out of what they have done. And then at least once every 2 years, typically every year, we have an on-site visit by one of our analysts, physically visit the offices and make sure they are for real. I think our oversight is about as good as anybody in the private sector. You heard earlier, I am not sure if you were in the room, about the loss ratio being so low. I think that the teammates that I had when I was there were about as careful as I have ever seen, and I spent a lot of time in the private sector. So I am not sure it needs a lot of tweaking. In fact, I think we might even see gearing back a little bit because the loss ratio is so low. Mr. COMER. Okay. Thank you. Mr. Chairman, I yield back. Chairman BLUM. Thank you, Mr. Comer. I now like to recognize the Vice Chairman of the full Committee, my colleague from Missouri, Mr. Luetkemeyer, for 5 minutes. Mr. LUETKEMEYER. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Great to be with you. I am just kind of curious. I am kind of familiar with SBICs, but I was reading here in some of the information about it that SBIC invests in established businesses using a debenture SBIC to fund expansion. Can you explain that, how that works? Mr. PALMER. Sure. Mr. LUETKEMEYER. Debenture is not a loan. It is more like a security. Mr. PALMER. Yeah. Well, the way the program works, the leverage is at the fund level. So the SBIC raises, say, just make the numbers easy, $50 million. It goes through a licensing process. It then can access this credit facility through the Federal Home Loan Bank of Chicago, a temporary basis. And then every 6 months they take all of this credit facility, all the money, all the obligations that have made to the credit facility, they get pulled together, securitized, and sold into a trust, and the government guarantees that. And that is where those debenture are. The form the capital goes to the actual small business can go in several--can come in several different varieties. It can be straight equity, it can be debt, it can be convertible debt, it can be all sorts of all different structures in there, some of which are recourse, some of which are not. But that is the basic gist of the debenture. Mr. LUETKEMEYER. Because you are taking, really, a first dollar in in a lot of risky investments here, what kind of loss ratio do you experience with SBICs? Mr. PALMER. The way it is structured, unlike the 7(a) and the 504 program where there is a loss sharing in the first dollar loss, all the private capital is lost before the taxpayer money is exposed, and there is ongoing review of the portfolio both on a quarterly basis as well as on an every investment basis as well as on an annual basis to make sure that if the fund is going sideways the SBA does have the capacity to cut off further access to leverage or if there is regulatory noncompliance. So the losses are very, very minimal. And actually the program is actually run to zero subsidiary because of the fees associated with the program since the late 1990s when Congress reformed all the SBA programs. It is actually the lowest loss ratio they have had in the 59-year history of the program. And there is an annual charge that they add to the SBA charges on the leverage that is now only down to 22 basis points. The historical low on that was 28 basis points, and the historical norm is closer to 70 basis points. So it is really, really low, maybe even too low of a loss rate. Mr. LUETKEMEYER. Well, that was going to be my next question, is I see here with Mr. Kolln, he says something about AAVIN received between 500 and 1,000 inquiries a year, yet only finances roughly four to six small businesses a year. So if we don't experience any losses, are we really taking any chances? And we only have four out of six of 1,000 inquiries that are financed. Can you explain that to me? Mr. KOLLN. Well, I think that is due to two things. One is we get a lot of inquiries. A lot of them are not necessarily ones that match what we are trying to do. Mr. LUETKEMEYER. What are you trying to do? Mr. KOLLN. Or what we can do. They may be looking for a lot more money than we can provide. Or they may be--there are some businesses, if they are looking for not enough, too small an amount of money, it becomes difficult for us to do. Or the company doesn't have the growth prospects that we are looking for. So we can't invest in every business that comes our way, and we physically only have so many partners and so much time. And once we get involved in the businesses, we are very involved with the management teams and counseling them and working with them. So we are just limited in the amount of businesses that we can invest in. Mr. PALMER. And just so I was clear on that, I was talking about the loss to the taxpayer. That doesn't mean, necessarily, it is private sector losses. I mean, there are losses, too, where businesses are invested in and there is private capital that is lost. So, yes, that does happen and it is common. It is not pervasive, obviously, but it certainly does happen regularly. Mr. PAINTER. Well, the average loss rate at the fund level would be you are going to lose on roughly 5 to 10 percent of what you invest in. So not lose all of it, but on 5 to 10 percent of what you invest in, you will have some amount of loss on that. Mr. KOLLN. And that is consistent with our experience as well. Mr. LUETKEMEYER. Mr. Kolln, you are advancing funds here. Are you taking an active management role in these countries or an equity part in these companies, or are you just like a bank, just loaning money to them and kind of watching them from the sidelines? Mr. KOLLN. It is typically a combination of debt and equity. And we are always involved at kind of an active board level with the companies. So we are not day-to-day operators. We back and partner with management teams. But we are active board members helping them with strategy, financing, treasury functions, and kind of overall---- Mr. LUETKEMEYER. You are like a venture capitalist where you will have somebody on the board? Mr. KOLLN. Yes. Mr. LUETKEMEYER. Okay. Very good. I see my time has expired. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Chairman BLUM. Thank you, Mr. Luetkemeyer. The Chairman of our full Committee just arrived. Would the Chairman like to question? I can give you a couple minutes if you will like. Mr. CHABOT. I will see. Chairman BLUM. We will begin now our second round of questioning, and I would like to recognize my colleague from Florida, Mr. Lawson. Mr. LAWSON. Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I don't have any data in front of me, as a former business person, but if I were to guess, I would think that the financing rate for minority-owned firms is low because of the application process and a lack of technical assistance that is provided to these firms. Can you all provide your thoughts on the assessment and if there is a need for technical assistance, not only in the application process, but throughout the entire process of becoming an SBIC? Mr. PALMER. There are two different issues there. One is getting minority fund managers. And one of the challenges with getting more minority fund managers, and this applies to women too, is to get an SBIC license, you have to have basically been in a private equity fund before, and so you are sort of cycling from the same pool. And to get beyond and a more diverse range of fund managers, it is tough with the way that it is set up right now. So technical assistance isn't necessarily going to help that. It will help a little bit as far as that there is greater surety in getting to the licensing process, but you are still drawing from a fairly small pool, as opposed to doing some things to recognize professional experience people have, either on the banking side or on the investment banking side, to get more fund managers in that are diverse. On the actual businesses accessing the capital, that is a little bit all over the place. Some technical assistance there, getting them steered to the right places, whether it be a conventional bank loan, a micro loan, whether they need equity investment and other matters. A number of years ago, I was doing one of these sort of Shark Tank-type things and helping small businesses. And there was a minority-owned business there that was looking for a couple million dollars. It was a third-generation business. And people were saying, ``Oh, I would take this amount of your business,'' and that sort of thing. And I went to the guy afterwards and said, ``Don't give up a dime of your business. You don't need to give up a single drop of equity to get what you need to do. Don't lose control of your business. Here are 5 or 6 people you can talk to that can give you the capital you are needing for looking at your loan, that you need.'' That is what that person needed. And frankly, it would have been bad had it been--he would have been taken to the cleaners if he had just gone with what people were sort of throwing out. Now, that is not how the actual transactions get done. But, yes, there is more education needed and more understanding of how to access the right type of capital at the right time of your business' development. And we try to do more of that, and we probably can do more. Mr. PAINTER. And it is a complex issue that I don't have the answer for. But I know for me personally, I have three daughters, and I know my oldest daughter asked me 3 years ago, we were talking about work, and I said, ``Well, would you ever want to come into my industry?'' And she said, ``Well, I didn't know that was possible,'' because all she sees are men, and mostly white men, in my industry. So I think for that what we have struggled at Plexus is when we are doing hiring process is to get diverse pools of candidates that we can interview. And we are now working on education programs with colleges so that people know that it is an opportunity. I think another really important point is there is a treasure trove of data at SBA. And there is a group of really smart people in the education arena that would love to analyze that for public policy purposes and they can dig into issues like that. It is such a complex issue that without getting the best brains around the world to focus on it, I don't know that we can solve it. So I would really encourage consideration of figuring out a way to unlock that data and allow people from the educational world and policy world to analyze the data so we can solve problems like that. And the data is there. It is just a matter of somehow unlocking it and having access to it. Mr. LAWSON. Okay. And I have less than a minute, but I want to ask you a question because it is a big issue. How does tax reform help small businesses? Mr. PALMER. It helps a lot. I mean, the more small businesses can understand a tax code, use it efficiently, the more money they can keep to reinvest in their businesses, the better off they are. The bill was just released last week, everyone is still going through the details, but our current tax system is Byzantine and antigrowth. And a reform that gets to a lower tax rate, that is simpler and pro-growth would be, I think, universally accepted and supported. Mr. PAINTER. I think it is important, too, just the certainty around it. Again, taking it to the human level, when we go to board meetings and we are sitting in Orlando, Florida, with Design Shop, and you have people there that have real money, real parts of their lives at risk and they are being asked to make decisions about future spending, it is very difficult to do that with uncertainty about where taxes are headed. And if you give them clarity on a reduction in taxes, then they become more comfortable spending that money for growth. Mr. LAWSON. Okay. Mr. Chairman, I yield back. Chairman BLUM. That was a great question. Thank you, Mr. Lawson. I now recognize myself for 5 minutes. Mr. Walsh, I am intrigued by your background. I am a private sector guy myself. And this is my first gig, if you will, in government. And you are a private sector guy, served a couple years in government. Why did you serve in government? Mr. WALSH. I knew my two predecessors in this job, knew them well from the private sector. In fact, I hired and worked with my direct predecessor. He told me this is the greatest hidden secret in the Federal Government. This was effectively the venture capital firm--or sometimes called the vulture capital firm--the venture capital firm of the U.S. Government. It was an incredible program. It was exciting to meet the type of people involved. And in fact, at the end you actually saw real impact in real people's lives with investment that made a difference in companies that matter to our Nation. So not to get out the flag and salute it, but I thought if there was ever a place in the Federal Government where it would map against my background, and I could hopefully add some value, and I would see the outcomes being so fruitful, this was the place. Final point. I told any lovely spouse that in the job everything I was hoping to see in government I saw times 10, and everything I was hoping not to see in government I saw times 10. So it was very, very eye opening to see all the great things that were happening. And sometimes, as we have heard some of the testimony today, reflecting some of the grinding wheels of Government made it a little tougher than it would have been. But overall, it was aimed--I did it because it mapped against my background, to your point, I saw the outcomes being so positive. And, again, I wouldn't trade any minute in that job. I loved every single bit of it. Chairman BLUM. As a private sector person, what kind of a grade would you give the SBA overall? Mr. WALSH. The SBA or the SBIC program? Chairman BLUM. Well, both. Mr. WALSH. Okay. Chairman BLUM. Both. Mr. WALSH. I give the SBIC program an A minus. I think it needs some improvement. The SBA program--boy, am I going to regret this, but thank you for putting me on the spot, sir--I think the SBA program is a B minus. And mean no disrespect to my professional colleagues at it. I think the SBA program, the other parts that we talk about, I think they need some improvement and some outcome improvements. I think the SBIC is the shining--and I am biased--I think the SBIC, SBIR, and Accelerator programs are the shining jewel in the SBA family. Chairman BLUM. Thank you. Do you grade on a curve? Mr. WALSH. What is the best answer to give you, Mr. Chairman, to that? Chairman BLUM. Thank you for being frank. Mr. Palmer, I looked in your testimony, the distribution of SBIC, financing dollars by industry. Number one was manufacturing. Good to see. Good to see. We can use more of that in this country. I was surprised by healthcare was one of the lower percentages as far as industry segment that is invested in. Can you talk about that? I mean, healthcare is a very dynamic and growing part of our economy, and I am just a little surprised. Mr. PALMER. It is. And I was surprised by that, too. The numbers are what the numbers are. We just gave an award for portfolio company of the year to a company in Tennessee. It was healthcare company that provided urgent care centers throughout Tennessee and I think in a couple in Kentucky, too, this little entity that went from 7 employees to 500 employees providing medical care where there wasn't any before. So we certainly have some, and some great ones. But it is relatively low, and I don't fully know why that is. But a lot of it on the manufacturing side is generational transfer, where the founders are retiring and their management team is buying out the owner and reinventing the business. That is why there is a large number of manufacturing and applying new technologies. But on healthcare, I think Thies has something to add there, but I don't know. Chairman BLUM. Mr. Kolln? Mr. KOLLN. I think part of it is looking at the companies and the size of companies that SBICs are investing in, and we are investing in smaller companies. Healthcare is such a large industry that has huge, huge companies in it, and those companies, there aren't as many small businesses necessarily involved in it. And there are a lot of--there are just, pure numbers-wise, I think a lot more small manufacturing and service businesses out there. So the businesses that we as SBICs tend to focus on and invest in skew differently maybe than the economy as a whole. Mr. PAINTER. Right. It is a much more developed industry on the medical side. It is a much more developed system for access to capital relative to manufacturing and service. Chairman BLUM. I have got quite a few questions, so I guess your answers to this one would have to be brief. But I would like to hear from each one of you. Give me what you think is the state of small business in America today. What is the health, the healthiness of small business in this country today? We understand, to tag on to Mr. Lawson's great question, we understand that tax reform is going to help. We understand regulatory relief helps. We understand reducing uncertainty helps. We also understand a robust and growing economy helps. I get that. But what is the state of small business today? Try to be somewhat brief. Mr. PALMER. Sure, I will be quick. I think, summed up in a word, I think there is optimism. I mean, I think there really is a lot of hope that the government is actually working with them and some of the shackles are going to come off on regulatory and tax. So when I am traveling the country and talking to folks, what I am hearing is a lot of optimism. There is always a certain level of business uncertainty. Business uncertainty business people can deal with. Political and regulatory uncertainty, they can't. So I think optimism is what I hear the most. Chairman BLUM. Mr. Kolln. Mr. KOLLN. I would second that, too. You stole my word, Brett. I think on the whole there is optimism. It is always tempered with caution. But I think we see businesses more eager to invest and grow now than they have been for a number of years, I think. Chairman BLUM. Mr. Painter. Mr. PAINTER. There is undoubtedly no better place to start and own a small business than the United States of America. That is why I love doing what I do. I don't know what the future looks like, but I know that you have resilient people focused on growing small businesses with an employee base that is a meaningful percentage of our economy. And we have plenty of things we can work on and get better with SBA and on our own, at individual funds, but it is healthy and it is thriving like it always has and like it always will. Chairman BLUM. Mr. Walsh. Mr. WALSH. People are pumped up. It is cheaper to start a business today because of technology and other tactics and tools than ever before. And you can start businesses cheaper in places that normally didn't used to have businesses. So I think we have had sort of from cautious optimism, on the other end of the scale. I think people are really, really maximally pumped up. This is the place, it is cheaper to do, and there are tools and tactics and money available to help you grow. Chairman BLUM. If I can just follow up on that. I find it interesting. Uncertainty, I agree, is one of the biggest impediments to expanding a business. You know what the rules of the game are going to be tomorrow, how you prepare for it, correct? What has changed as far as uncertainty to cause this optimism? What has changed to cause the optimism? I mean, healthcare, I guess one could say, is probably we are more uncertain than ever on what is going to happen as far as healthcare goes. I am just curious---- Mr. WALSH. Yeah. If I can toss a thought out. In the last couple of decades, back in the day, if you left a large company which used to have a pension and a very secure environment, the old days of corporate environment, if you left to start a business and it failed, your record, your career was besmirched, right? Today, in fact, failure is not a sign of a negative tint or hue of your career. In fact, failure for many investors is a sign of education. You learn a lot from failing. So I think there is an element of risk that today's workers are able to have a higher appetite for, because it doesn't take as much money to start a business and you are not kind of ruining your career arch by trying it and having it not work out. So the uncertainty of the capital structure, the uncertainty of your cost structure, the uncertainty of your tax structure, I think those are slowly getting better. But the uncertainty about your career is also something that has kind of, I think, been taken care of and made more positive. Chairman BLUM. Anyone else on that? Mr. PAINTER. I just think there is always going to be uncertainty. There is always risk in small business. So just simplifying the Tax Code so that people know the environment they are operating in, and the less complex we can make it so you don't have to hire teams of tax attorneys to help you figure out how you need to operate, the better. Mr. KOLLN. And part of it is just the spirit of small business owners. Small business owners are optimists by nature. You don't start a small business and look to grow a small business if you are not optimistic about yourself and about your company in the future. So that is what is great about our industry and who we get to work with, is that there is a natural optimism there, and I think people in small business tend to try to see the future is bright. Chairman BLUM. Speaking of not having as much of a fear of failure, I think it was Mr. Painter, in someone's testimony they mentioned out of 100 companies looked at, 1 qualifies for financing. Tell me about the other 99. In general, I know each one is unique, but why don't they qualify? What are the problems with the other 99? Mr. PAINTER. Right. So I think the best way to describe it would be is, if you think about the very mature market where public companies have access to all types of capital, you have hundreds of suppliers of capital that all have a different focus. They find their niches and they focus on it and they dominate it. At the small end of the market, there are so many gaps. So when I go in to meet with a company I don't understand--there is probably 50 percent of them where we just don't understand enough about what they do to be able to take that risk. So I can't know everything about every industry. So that is one piece. We have to focus in certain areas so that we can ultimately protect taxpayer dollars and also deliver a return to our investors. Then you have companies that don't have the proper accounting files, that we have issues that come up all the time around accounting and we will think we are looking at numbers of X, then we find out it is X times 50 percent. So there are just a lot of things that have to happen to close one transaction. Chairman BLUM. Anyone else on that? Mr. KOLLN. Yeah. I think of the 100 down to 1, I think the first 80 of the 99, it is just not a fit. As Mr. Painter said, they are either looking for a different type of capital than we are able to provide, they are looking for much more capital, much less capital, they are looking for more risky capital than what we are providing, or they are looking for more like a bank loan type of capital. So it is not a fit. And then the other 20, it is either something peculiar to the company or just sometimes you just can't come to a deal. And it is just making a deal and sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Mr. PALMER. And just to be clear. Chairman BLUM. Mr. Palmer? Mr. PALMER. It is not that those 99 don't ever get funded. They might get funding from other sources. They just might be barking up the wrong tree and need to get to the right tree. So there is some of that, which also matters. But, again, the approach, the preparation that people have--and this goes to Congressman Lawson's point earlier of the training--when you are approaching a professional firm for institutional investment, what is it you need to explain. You need to have a board, you need to have your books looked at internally, with a real hard look, you know, what is it you really want to do with your business. And that isn't always sort of lined up coming in before they are approached. And so if you don't have your ducks in a row going in, your chance of success coming out are lower. Chairman BLUM. When I am asked about--and this will be my last question--when I am asked about the health of small business, I often talk about a three-legged stool. And the legs being, one, the economy in general. I always say small businesses don't worry about taxes if they are not making any money. So they need revenues and they need to make a profit, first and foremost. So an expanding, robust economy is so important to small businesses. Second is the regulatory relief, which we are seeing now, because regulations really hit small businesses to a greater extent than large businesses. And thirdly, tax, tax relief, if they do make a profit, so they can keep more of their business, capital in their business. Am I forgetting anything there? Is it a four-legged stool, five-legged stool? What is also important? Mr. WALSH. I would add people. I think access to folks where your business is located that are trained, that are motivated, that you can motivate through your salary or your bonus or your equity structure, and retaining those people. I think something you have seen recently really pop up, certainly in Silicon Valley and some of the other sort of hotter places for startups, is the loyalty, that people are changing jobs rapidly. So discovering, recruiting, training, and keeping people. I think what I would add, what I would suggest is a fourth leg. Chairman BLUM. Anyone else? It is a good point. Does anyone else up here have any further questions? Mr. LAWSON. Mr. Chairman, I just want to state one thing, if I could. Chairman BLUM. Mr. Lawson, you are recognized. Mr. LAWSON. In Florida, they require the businesses to pay the intangible tax. But what I noticed, and I brought up to the legislature back then, it cost them more for the CPA than what the tax was, you know. And so I filed a bill, and some people didn't quite understand, to up the amount, limit of the intangible tax beyond $25,000. Because I was doing it myself and I had to pay the CPA all this stuff, fill out all these papers, and so forth, and the fee was not as much as it was to pay the CPA, you know. So I can understand exactly what you are saying, Mr. Walsh. But it was incredible what you have to pay the CPA just to do the intangible tax. That is all I want to say, Mr. Chairman. Chairman BLUM. Thank you, Mr. Lawson. Once again I would like to thank everyone, especially our panelists, for being here today. I believe it is extremely important to hear from those working on the ground, on the front lines with these programs that we care so deeply about. And as we continue to examine many of the SBA's programs, your comments will be most helpful. You play an important role in the ability of small businesses to grow and create jobs, so I appreciate you all taking time out of your schedule to be here with us today. I ask unanimous consent that members have 5 legislative days to submit statements and supporting materials for the record. Without objection, so ordered. This hearing is now adjourned. [Whereupon, at 11:18 a.m., the Subcommittee was adjourned.] A P P E N D I X [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Chairman Blum, Ranking Member Schneider, and Members of the Subcommittee, thank you for the opportunity to testify today and for holding this hearing, ``Investing in Small Business: The SBIC Program.'' This hearing is important for highlighting the United States Small Business Administration's (SBA) Small Business Investment Company (SBIC) Small Business Investment Company (SBIC) Program and the impact it is having on growing domestic small businesses and creating American jobs. Access to capital is a tremendous issue for small businesses across the country. This program effectively resolves that issue. I am eager to provide you my perspective as an SBIC fund manager and past member of the Small Business Investor Alliance board. My name is Thies Kolln. I am a partner of AAVIN Private Equity, a private equity firm based in the heart of the Midwest. Our central office is in Cedar Rapids, Iowa, but we also have regional offices in Kansas City, Missouri and Madison, Wisconsin. I joined AAVIN in 2002, and prior to joining the firm I practiced corporate law in Chicago, representing venture capital and private equity funds. At AAVIN, we stay true to our roots by focusing on helping small, regionally-based businesses grow. We specialize in late- stage and expansion-stage financings, and we partner with strong management teams that seek long-term business growth. Our focus is on smaller investment opportunities--small businesses seeking financings less than $10 million, with most needing less than $5 million. Further, our activities are concentrated mostly in the upper Midwest, such as Iowa, which is an area of the country traditionally underserved by capital. We are also weighted toward small businesses in manufacturing and business services, but are diversified in other sectors such as healthcare, technology, and communications. AAVIN has extensive private equity investment experience. The seven members of our investment team have made investments in over 300 companies and have held multiple operating roles. Through our firm's history, just in Iowa we have deployed $34 million in capital that helped create our sustain over 6,000 jobs. Those numbers may not mean a whole lot for a place like Manhattan, but they do for Iowa. These investments produced great growth for small businesses as well as returns for our investment partners, which includes repayment in full to the SBA and American taxpayer. To provide technical insight into the SBIC Program, my testimony today will focus on three main areas: 1) AAVIN's involvement in, and strong support for, the SBIC Program; 2) AAVIN's investment process in small businesses through the SBIC Program; and 3) AAVIN's impact on growing domestic small businesses and creating American jobs through the SBIC Program. SBIC Program Involvement AAVIN has substantial historical involvement with the SBIC Program. A hallmark of the SBIC Program is its rigorous licensing process for prospective SBIC funds, ensuring taxpayer protection and safeguarding the program's reputation. One requirement for licensing is that management team applicants have extensive prior investment experience and good investment track records. AAVIN meets that demand. Our firm's experience base dates back to the start of the SBIC Program in 1959. We have a long-term commitment to small business. In its present-day iteration, AAVIN is currently on its second Debenture SBIC fund, which became licensed in 2015; however, our seven principals have successfully managed five prior SBICs, with over 40 years of continuous Debenture SBIC management. We have over 120 cumulative years of lending and mezzanine investing experience. Such repeats of licensure as an SBIC is a good thing, as it demonstrates to prospective small business partners our previous funds' successes; demonstrates our commitment to serving this undercapitalized market; and demonstrates to the taxpayer that we are good stewards of American tax dollars. Notably, we have a history of on-time payments to SBA and overall compliance, with clean examinations without findings. AAVIN strongly supports the SBIC Program because it provides the opportunity to supplement our private capital with up to two times more capital to deploy to small businesses to support their growth. This augmented growth capital helps small businesses grow even more than AAVIN's private capital alone could. Given the increasing concentration of capital among large funds and institutions and the resulting difficulty in finding capital with a dedicated strategy of investing in small funds and small businesses, it is questionable whether many of the small funds like AAVIN could even continue to fund small businesses at all without the program. Importantly, our private capital--and any private capital of any other SBIC fund--is always in the first-loss position when making investments. So, despite being leveraged with capital other than our private capital, our interest is always in making sound investments knowing that our private capital, which includes significant personal investments by our management team, would be burned through by an underperforming investment before any taxpayer capital would lose even a dollar. SBICs like AAVIN are usually providers of the first institutional capital into a small business. Because of this, the program is helping to professionalize small businesses, as SBICs ensure the business's operations are fundamentally solid along with their financials during the investment. This not only primes businesses for greater growth but also gives them greater long-term viability by strengthening their ability to response to changing economic cycles, management team transitions and other unforeseen events. AAVIN's investment process works to that end. Investment Process While the SBIC Program makes available additional capital to augment private capital, the actual act of investing in small businesses itself is, and always will be, incumbent upon the SBIC fund. AAVIN's investment process not only protects the interests of the American taxpayer and the firm's own investment partners, but also that of the small businesses it partners with to grow. AAVIN receives over 500 to 1000 inquiries annually for small business financings. Approximately 50 to 100 of those inquiries we whittle down through our preliminary diligence, then even further from there, eventually landing at approximately 4 to 6 financings actually being conducted through the fund annually. Our deal flow is from significant proprietary sources that we have developed over 40 years by focusing on a consistent investment profile using our regional offices. Again, this informs our geographic investment preferences. Notable among those deal flow sources are local and regional banks, many of which are too small to be called on by other funds and which also cannot practically deploy their capital to small businesses without an SBIC. Our investment underwriting is rigorous and credit-based. Characteristics of small businesses that we look for before investing in are a positive cash flow; financial ratios, such as total funded debt to Earnings Before Interest, Taxes, Depreciation and Amortization (EBITDA); a complete management team with strong financial and operation leadership; a defensible market position; and ultimately a growth opportunity. This is all to say that the rigorous licensing process and continuous ongoing oversight of funds that the SBA applies to the SBIC Program likewise applies to our processes in financing small businesses. A typical transaction for AAVIN provides under $2 to 5 million in financing to a small business. This is mostly debt in the form of loans, but we usually take an equity stake in the small business in conjunction with the loan. We partner with the management teams and always make sure that management holds equity interests in the businesses they operate--active managers will usually own a greater stake in the business after our investment than before. Following the initial investment, AAVIN, as generally the first institutional investor, supports the small business for anywhere between three to eight years before. In that time, we are repaying the SBA and providing returns to our investors. We provide significant value over the life of our investments through active involvement with the respective small businesses. We provide assistance to our small business management teams in many areas including strategic planning, finance, marketing, recruiting, analyzing and closing acquisitions or divestitures, developing treasury strategies and assessing financial markets. These are the acts of professionalizing the small business I mentioned as a core outcome of the SBIC Program. To that end, we are truly partners with small businesses. Impact on Small Businesses Through the SBIC Program, AAVIN helps small businesses solve their need for capital, along with operating assistance that aids professionalization. The upper Midwest is traditionally lacking in alternative sources of capital, particularly for smaller businesses. Unlike other fund managers, AAVIN has not moved up-market to manage ever larger funds that no longer focus on small business investing. We have been able to keep our focus and strategy because of the continued availability of the SBIC program. When it comes to securing growth capital, equity financing is often too expensive or unavailable for small businesses. To finance their continued growth through equity alone, small business owners would have to give up large amounts of control of their businesses, if they could even find such capital at all. Most private equity capital is focused either in specific regions and industries such as Silicon Valley IT or Boston area medical companies or in very large multibillion dollar funds that aren't set up to make small investments. Small businesses are also limited in their ability to get traditional bank loans, which are often limited to a portion of the assets the business has as collateral or the owners can provide through personal guarantees. The SBIC Program fills this gap by enabling a these businesses to access a more flexible source of debt that is focused on meeting their capital needs. The small businesses AAVIN invests in through the SBIC Program may have many possible uses for capital, such as expansion by purchasing equipment or facilities, hiring additional employees to grow the business, acquiring other small businesses, or providing operating capital. Because of our location and our firm's investing principles, we have a particular impact on small businesses in Iowa. In our firm's history, we have made 26 investments in Iowa small businesses, one as recently as the end of October in Happy Joe's Pizza & Ice Cream. Happy Joe's is a family-run chain pizza parlor that was founded in 1972. The business also provides franchise opportunities and has 54 locations across Iowa and other states in the Midwest. We have an ambitious growth plan for this company and have already made new hires into the organization to carry this out. Our management team is currently looking for more space for our expanded operations, which will enable them to make additional hires. Our involvement with the business will help it to create a larger geographic footprint, expand its product offerings, and--most importantly--create more jobs. Another example of our investment in small local businesses is RuffaloCODY, headquartered in Cedar Rapids, Iowa. RuffaloCODY provides fund raising, consulting, enrollment and donor based management services to non-profit organizations; primarily colleges and universities. The company manages on- campus fund raising campaigns and telefund campaigns, where RuffaloCODY hires students to perform the telemarketing process for its clients. RuffaloCODY is the market leader in fund raising services for non-profit organizations. After an 8-year involvement that included a total investment of $3.25 million, AAVIN exited RuffaloCODY. AAVIN's investment helped the company grow from just over 100 to more than 500 permanent employees, build out new facilities in Cedar Rapids and provide thousands of students across the country with part-time work raising money for their colleges and universities. In 2014, the business announced it acquired another business, forming Ruffalo Noel Levitz, to better partner with colleges and nonprofit organizations to help them enroll their classes, graduate their students, and engage their donors. Our involvement with the company helped establish a foundation for their growth into what the business is today. We are proud of these investments because of the impact the small businesses have on their communities by creating jobs and spurring the local economy, not least because we ourselves live in these communities. Conclusion But for the SBIC Program, AAVIN would not have its successful history of deploying growth capital to American small businesses, the backbone of our economy. The SBIC Program effectively helps us leverage the private capital we are able to raise for this purpose. Conversely, but for the SBIC Program, American small business access to capital would be worse. Without the program, an enormous capital access gap would exist for small businesses that traditionally lack alternative capital sources for growth. Thank you to the Subcommittee for holding this hearing on the SBA's SBIC Program and how it enables access to capital for small businesses. I encourage the Committee and this Congress to continuing fully supporting the program so that it may expand, support more domestic small businesses, and create even more American jobs. I look forward to answering any questions you may have. [GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT] Good Morning. My name is Mark Walsh, and I am pleased to join you today to discuss the Small Business Investment Company, or SBIC program. From late 2015 until January 19th of this year, I ran the Office of Investment and Innovation (OII), at the US Small Business Administration here in Washington D.C. My area oversaw all SBIC, SBIR (Small Business Innovation Research) and Incubator/Accelerator programs. I was a Presidential appointee. It was my first job in government. Before that I had a 35+ year career in technology, the internet, and media--with senior or C-Suite positions at a wide variety of companies, including AOL, GE, HBO, VerticaINet, and more. Further, for the last 17 years, I have been an active ``Angel'' and venture investor in a wide variety of start-ups, and have served on the board of directors for many of those companies and other high-growth venture backed entities. I have also served as Chairman of the Bipartisan Policy Center here in DC. I have a BA from Union College in NY, and an MBA from Harvard. I am happy to discuss the SBIC program, one of the most innovative, financially successful and well-structured government programs in existence. However, since I left the program almost 10 months ago, I hope the committee will forgive me if some of my recollections and remembrances are dimmed or made suspect by the passage of time. Also, my opinions are my own, and are not meant to reflect any one else's or any other agenda. The SBIC program takes low-interest debt issued by a consortium of banks, backed by the SBA/OII, and provides it to professionally managed domestic Venture Capital and Private Equity funds. These VC and PE funds can only receive the non- dilutive debt investment from OII after being granted an SBIC License. The license application and approval process is extraordinarily rigorous, and creates an efficient ``filter'' for mismanaged or ill-targeted funds from receiving taxpayer dollars. Further, a licensee is required to report all significant investment activities, sales of companies, additional Limited Partner investments, etc. to the OII on a regular quarterly basis, and there are annual on-site inspections by OII trained teammates to validate all the activities and efforts of the licensee. In short, OII is as vigilant an investor as any in the private market, if not more so. However, as we all know, investment entails risk, so OII also had a trained team of ``workout'' experts who helped funds that ran awry of financial health, and in some cases assumed ownership and control of failed funds and disposed of the assets at admirable salvage valuations. But, make no mistake, the amount of unrecoverable investment was miniscule, and was the envy of the private sector. In short, the SBIC program was a fabulous example of a public/private partnership, and one I was proud to be part of. My colleagues and teammates, both career and political- appointees, were as motivated, talented and professional as any I have worked with in my career. I enjoyed my all-too-short stint immensely. But, I was asked here today to address ways to improve the SBIC program. Nothing is perfect, and there are a few areas I would try to address if I were still in charge. 1) Outreach: We made extraordinary progress during my time in discovering new funds and new types of funds, and in meeting and engaging more diverse fund managers--gender, demographic, geographic and market- focused diversity--than many prior efforts. That happened because my teammates and I made it a priority. The SBIC program should hire and motivate more and more outreach teammates to reignite and continue that trend. 2) Promote and Reward certain types of Funds: ``Impact Funds'', (aimed at social, environmental, educational, or institutional improvement as opposed to pure profit) are wonderful entities. The SBIC program should be able to encourage them with lower interest rates, more attractive payback options, or faster application processing. Currently, they are not effectively treated any differently than other funds. Also, SBIC had a ``Venture Fund'' category, aimed at higher-risk start up investments, and those funds should also have better terms made available for them, as they are often structured to have less appetite for debt. 3) License Processing Streamlining/Reporting Requirement Streamlining: The amount of paperwork expected of a license applicant and license holder is heavy. OII and the Program should continue its efforts to use available technologies to streamline these processes. Some funds we tried to enroll and apply chose not to because the paperwork and processes were onerous and time consuming. 4) Equity Ownership: OII should have the ability to receive a very small amount of equity in the companies its capital invests in. The SBIC program, started in the 1950's, has held debt-stakes in a number of iconic companies. For instance, in 1977 it held over 4% ownership in a small technology company called Apple. Over the years, the program has had limited success in taking equity stakes, but I feel that OII should continue vigorous and energetic efforts to create some ownership ``upside'' for American taxpayers through this program with equity ownership versus only debt. 5) More Private-Sector Partnerships: During my stint, teammates and I created a wonderful board-diversity initiative called ONBoard (The Open Network for Board Diversity) with a partner, LinkedIn (the professional Social Network). There are a great number of innovative and productive private sector companies who would be wonderful partners in new and innovative opportunities. OII should be freer to pursue those. 6) Networking Opportunities between Funds and Companies: OII was not at liberty to cross pollinate its investment funds with each other. Companies looking for capital who called OII could not be told about PE or VC funds that might be looking to invest in them. OII is a natural clearinghouse for a wide variety of data it collects about its Funds, and it should have more ``Open Access'' to the data for industry observers, companies, funds and analysts. There are other improvements or opportunities I could detail, but these are some that I saw great potential in when I was at the Agency. I would encourage the Committee to work with OII and the SBA to promote these ideas, if the Committee finds them of value. Before I conclude, let me also mention the SBIA, or Small Business Investor Alliance. They are the industry association focused on the SBIC marketplace. Their staff and management were extraordinarily helpful to me as I learned the program, and were invaluable partners for the initiatives me and my OII colleagues pursued. Their Board and members were truly the ``best of the best'', and I can't thank them enough for their productive role in the ongoing success of the SBIC program. Thank you for inviting me today, and now I am ready to help with any questions or comments the Committee may have. Mark L. Walsh [all]