[House Hearing, 117 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
POLICY RECOMMENDATIONS ON HAITI FOR THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION
=======================================================================
HEARING
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
__________
March 12, 2021
__________
Serial No. 117-11
__________
Printed for the use of the Committee on Foreign Affairs
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Available: http://www.foreignaffairs.house.gov/, http://
docs.house.gov,
or http://www.govinfo.gov
______
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
43-702 PDF WASHINGTON : 2021
COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS
GREGORY W. MEEKS, New York, Chairman
BRAD SHERMAN, California MICHAEL T. McCAUL, Texas, Ranking
ALBIO SIRES, New Jersey Member
GERALD E. CONNOLLY, Virginia CHRISTOPHER H. SMITH, New Jersey
THEODORE E. DEUTCH, Florida STEVE CHABOT, Ohio
KAREN BASS, California JOE WILSON, South Carolina
WILLIAM KEATING, Massachusetts SCOTT PERRY, Pennsylvania
DAVID CICILLINE, Rhode Island DARRELL ISSA, California
AMI BERA, California ADAM KINZINGER, Illinois
JOAQUIN CASTRO, Texas LEE ZELDIN, New York
DINA TITUS, Nevada ANN WAGNER, Missouri
TED LIEU, California BRIAN MAST, Florida
SUSAN WILD, Pennsylvania BRIAN FITZPATRICK, Pennsylvania
DEAN PHILLIPS, Minnesota KEN BUCK, Colorado
ILHAN OMAR, Minnesota TIM BURCHETT, Tennessee
COLIN ALLRED, Texas MARK GREEN, Tennessee
ANDY LEVIN, Michigan ANDY BARR, Kentucky
ABIGAIL SPANBERGER, Virginia GREG STEUBE, Florida
CHRISSY HOULAHAN, Pennsylvania DAN MEUSER, Pennsylvania
TOM MALINOWSKI, New Jersey CLAUDIA TENNEY, New York
ANDY KIM, New Jersey AUGUST PFLUGER, Texas
SARA JACOBS, California PETER MEIJER, Michigan
KATHY MANNING, North Carolina NICOLE MALLIOTAKIS, New York
JIM COSTA, California RONNY JACKSON, Texas
JUAN VARGAS, California YOUNG KIM, California
VICENTE GONZALEZ, Texas MARIA ELVIRA SALAZAR, Florida
BRAD SCHNEIDER, Illinois
Sophia Lafargue, Staff Director
Brendan Shields, Republican Staff Director
C O N T E N T S
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Page
INFORMATION FOR THE RECORD
Statement of His Excellency Bocchit Edmond....................... 4
WITNESSES
Douyon, Emmanuela, Policy Expert, Activist, NOU PAP DOMI......... 15
Jozef, Guerline, President, Haitian Bridge Alliance.............. 24
Auguste, Rosy, Program Director, National Network for the Defense
of Human Rights (RNDDH)........................................ 34
White, Honorable Pamela W., Former U.S. Ambassador to Haiti, U.S.
State Department............................................... 41
APPENDIX
Hearing Notice................................................... 80
Hearing Minutes.................................................. 81
Hearing Attendance............................................... 82
STATEMENT FOR THE RECORD
Statement for the record submitted from Representative Connolly.. 83
ADDITIONAL MATERIALS SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD
Statement for the record from the Center for American Progress... 85
Article from the Miami Herald.................................... 89
Letters submitted to the Honorable Michelle Sison for the record. 91
RESPONSES TO QUESTIONS SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD
Responses to questions submitted for the record.................. 99
POLICY RECOMMENDATIONS ON HAITI FOR THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION
Friday, March 12, 2021
House of Representatives,
Committee on Foreign Affairs,
Washington, DC.
The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:09 a.m., via
Webex, Hon. Gregory Meeks (Chairman of the committee)
presiding.
Chairman Meeks. The Committee on Foreign Affairs will come
to order.
Without objection, we are glad to welcome our colleague,
the Chair of the House Financial Services Committee, the
Honorable Representative Maxine Waters, to participate in
today's hearing after our Members have had their opportunity to
participate and question the witnesses.
Without objection, the Chair is authorized to declare a
recess of the committee at any time. And all Members will have
5 days to submit statements, extraneous material, and questions
for the record, subject to the length limitations in the rules.
To insert something into the record, please have your staff
email the previously mentioned address, or contact full
committee staff.
As a reminder to Members, please keep your video function
on at all times, even when you are not recognized by the Chair.
Members are responsible for muting and unmuting themselves. And
please remember to mute yourself after you finish speaking.
Consistent with House rules, staff will only mute Members, as
appropriate, when they are not under recognition, to eliminate
background noise.
I see that we have a quorum. And I now recognize myself for
opening remarks.
Pursuant to notice, we meet today to hear from
distinguished witnesses on their policy recommendations on
Haiti for the Biden Administration.
It has been more than 11 years since Haiti suffered the
devastating earthquake that killed hundreds of thousands,
displaced more than a million people, and cost billions of
dollars in damage. I am grateful that there is a continued U.S.
assistance to Haiti, and I am inspired by the resilience of the
Haitian people. We must sadly recognize that the situation in
Haiti has continued to deteriorate in the decades since the
earthquake.
Moving forward, we must be frank with ourselves and with
the Haitian people as we assess the strengths and the
shortcomings of our assistance programs in Haiti.
Today, Haiti faces a multi-pronged crisis. President Moise
has ruled by decree for 14 months. Top government officials
have been sanctioned by the U.S. Government for committing
human rights violations. And Haitian parents are afraid to send
their children to school or travel to work, not just because of
the pandemic, but because kidnappings and gang violence has
spiraled out of control.
Under the last Administration, a U.S. foreign policy--our
U.S. foreign policy turned a blind eye to matters of human
rights abuses and corruption. We witnessed the Haitian
Government cover up corruption allegations, tamp down on the
rights of journalists, and violently break up peaceful protests
with virtually zero condemnation.
With the Biden Administration, America is once again
willing to speak out against these actions. But there will be
little time to waste.
In the first year of President Biden's term Haiti is slated
to hold a constitutional referendum, as well as a parliamentary
and Presidential election. How the United States responds to
these challenges early on will play a pivotal role in
establishing buy-in and trust from Haitian civil society and
the Haitian people at large. However, the solutions to the
crisis in Haiti will not come from Washington, New York, or
Geneva, these solutions must come from and for the Haitian
people.
As Members of Congress, we must listen to Haitian civil
society, as well as our constituents in the Haitian diaspora. I
am proud to have a vibrant Haitian community in my district of
southeastern Queens, New York. And I value the perspective they
share. We must work multilaterally to elevate those voices and
take seriously their concerns.
One concern I hear frequently is skepticism about Haiti's
readiness for elections. While I would love nothing more than
to see free, fair, and inclusive elections held immediately, we
must listen to the outcry of Haitian voices who are telling us
that elections this year will be neither free, fair, or
inclusive, that the voices of civil society and the opposition
continue to be shown.
Instead of focusing on holding a constitutional referendum
that many in Haiti and in the international community have
denounced as unconstitutional, President Moise must take the
initiative and begin serious dialog to discuss what a peaceful
transition of power can look like.
I have called on the Biden Administration to recognize that
holding elections for elections' sake in Haiti will lead to the
same outcome as in the 2015 election. In order to move away
from the political paralysis that has gripped Haiti over the
last few years, the Haitian people need to believe that their
voices matter.
Finally, I want to reiterate my concerns that several of my
colleague, and I expressed to Secretary Mayorkas last month. It
was about the continued expulsion of Haitian migrants under
Title 42 of the Public Health Services Act. Last month at least
966 Haitians were deported to Haiti, the vast majority of which
were Title 42 expulsions, without any authority, no screening
whatsoever. Given all the challenges Haiti already faces, it is
untenable for the United States to continue expelling Haitian
migrants under Title 42.
The problems Haiti faces are complex and are only getting
more challenging. These difficulties will require a new
approach from the Biden Administration, with active engagement
from Congress, particularly this committee. An increased
collaboration with Haitian civil society, the Haitian-American
diaspora, and important regional partners like CARICOM.
In my capacity as Chair of this committee, I will be
working to make sure this Administration works closely with
Congress to do what is the best for the people of Haiti.
I look forward to hearing from our distinguished witnesses
on how we can make that happen. And I want to thank Ranking
Member McCaul for his partnership in addressing this important
topic.
Now, I will be submitting for the record a document from
the Government of Haiti. And I want to be clear, this document
does not reflect my views, nor my assessment of recent events.
But in the interest of a full and complete hearing record with
multiple views, I am submitting it for the record.
[The information referred to follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Chairman Meeks. I will now recognize the Ranking Member,
Representative McCaul, for his remarks.
Mr. McCaul. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you for
holding this hearing on a critical issue in the Western
Hemisphere.
Haiti is facing a political, economic, and humanitarian
crisis with its current President Jovenel Moise ruling by
decree for over a year. While this is legal, it complicates the
situation further. Current events are like the fragility of
Haiti's democracy. And, sadly, Haiti has struggled consistently
with political instability, extreme poverty, corruption, and
other endemic challenges since its transition from dictatorship
to democracy in 1987.
Haiti's progress has also been hindered by natural
disasters like the 2010 earthquake, and Hurricane Matthew in
2016. Haiti remains the poorest country in the Western
Hemisphere where nearly 60 percent of the population lives
below the national poverty line. And as a result of the COVID
pandemic, Haiti's economy has contracted by an estimated 4
percent.
I am also concerned about the alarmingly high levels of
crime and violence in Haiti, and reports of local gangs, human
rights abuses, and systemic corruption, which are rampant. And
I worry about the capacity of Haiti's justice system to fully
investigate and hold criminals accountable.
No matter how difficult the situation, the United States
remains committed to supporting the Haitian people. Haiti is
the second largest recipient of U.S. assistance in the Western
Hemisphere, receiving over $180 million in Fiscal Year 2020.
These funds are used primarily for emergency food aid and
distribution, global health programs, education, and security
assistance.
U.S. assistance has also helped build the Haitian National
Police into a professional security force, and we should
continue to support its development.
However, given the continuing challenges facing Haiti, I
think it is fair to ask how effective our assistance has been
and explore how our aid could achieve the desired outcome.
I also want to recognize the Government of Haiti for
maintaining diplomatic ties with Taiwan, and standing with the
U.S. and the international community and acknowledging the
fraudulent nature of the legislative elections organized by the
Maduro regime in Venezuela last year. I commend them for taking
these principled positions.
It is important for us to pursue policies that support the
Haitian people in their efforts to address serious challenges
they are facing. So, I look forward to hearing from our
witnesses today.
And with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
Chairman Meeks. Thank you, Representative McCaul.
I am honored to have a distinguished panel, four excellent
witnesses joining us today for our hearing.
Ms. Emmanuela Douyon is an economist, professor, and leader
in the Nou Pap Domi social movement, a collective of young
Haitians committed to fighting corruption, impunity, and social
injustice.
Ms. Guerline Jozef is the Co-Founder and Executive Director
of the Haitian Bridge Alliance, which elevates and empowers
Haitians and other Black immigrants from the Caribbean and
Africa through advocacy, organizing, and social and cultural
programs.
Ms. Rosy Kesner Auguste serves as Program Manager of the
National Human Rights Defense Network, a national institution
based on Haiti that advocates for the respect of human rights,
and conducts oversight of State institutions.
And, finally, Ambassador Pamela A. White. She is an
American diplomat who served as U.S. Ambassador to The Gambia
from 2010 to 2012, and U.S. Ambassador to Haiti from 2012 to
2015.
I thank you all for joining us today, and I look forward to
your testimony.
Witnesses will have 5 minutes to deliver your opening
remarks. We will also have an interpreter for one of the
witnesses. And I will make allowances for time used for
interpretation.
I will gently tap my gavel when you have 30 seconds left so
that you may conclude your testimony.
Without objection, your prepared written statement will be
made part of the record.
I now recognize Ms. Emmanuela Douyon for 5 minutes.
STATEMENT OF EMMANUELA DOUYON, POLICY EXPERT, ACTIVIST, NOU PAP
DOMI
Ms. Douyon. Thank you, Chairman Meeks, Ranking Member
McCaul, and Members of the committee. I want to thank you for
holding this hearing during a critical moment in Haiti's
history. My name is Emmanuela Douyon, and I am honored to be
here on behalf of Nou Pap Domi, a collective of engaged Haitian
citizens in the struggle against government corruption and
impunity.
Today is not the first time the U.S. Congress or this
committee has held a hearing to assess U.S. policy in Haiti and
gather recommendations. However, we see the present situation
as fundamentally different. Today, I am hopeful that the
Haitian people are on the verge of a new era, one with new
actors and a clear roadmap to end old practices that perpetuate
crisis after crisis and that can instead lead to the real
change the Haitian people deserve.
In Haiti, we are hopeful that the Administration of U.S.
President Joe Biden will also break with the past and, instead,
listen to the voices of civil society.
In my written testimony, I describe the current crisis and
provide a couple of recommendations that I summarize here.
We believe that the Biden Administration and the U.S.
Congress should take the following actions:
The U.S. should recognize that the situation in Haiti today
as a struggle by the Haitian people to take ownership of their
government and build democracy, not simply a fight between
politicians for power.
The U.S. should not be supporting Jovenel Moise, who is a
threat to Haiti's constitution and the rule of law because of
his tolerance for impunity and unconstitutional and
authoritarian acts, including:
Preparation of a constitutional referendum in violation of
the amendment process set forth in the constitution;
The appointment by decree of a provisional electoral
council, whose Members are not sworn in as legally required;
The recent dismissal and subsequent replacement of three
Supreme Court judges;
Attempts to undermine the controlling power of the Court of
Auditors;
Absence of political will to hold accountable those
involved in massacres, such as the La Saline massacre, and
several killings that happened during President Moise's term,
including the devastating assassination last year of the
President of the Bar Association of Port-au-Prince, Monferrier
Dorval.
His continued effort to grab power, whatever the cost, in
clear attempts to consolidate his power with no checks and
balances, including the replacement of elected local officials
by people accountable to him only, and unconstitutional decrees
that raise serious concern.
The U.S. Government must recognize that in the current
context the State-sponsored gang violence and human rights
abuses, increasing authoritarianism, and unconstitutional an
illegal provisional electoral council, and the failure to
register voters, free, fair, and credible elections cannot be
safely conducted within this year. It is simply not possible.
The recurrent electoral crisis and subsequent political
crisis have eroded citizens' faith in their government.
Rather than take sides in the constitutional dispute, it
will be more helpful to listen to and offer solidarity with the
Haitian people, who no longer recognize Jovenel Moise as their
President. Even before his constitutional mandate ended, after
years of calling on him to resign following reports from the
Court of Auditors providing his involvement in the PetroCaribe
corruption scandal, and because they are deeply concerned with
human rights abuse. Corrupt, incompetent, and authoritarian
officials should never be allowed to stay in power beyond their
term in the name of democracy.
The U.S. Government should recognize that past foreign-led
attempts aimed to strengthen democracy in Haiti have not led to
progress and often have been counterproductive. It is time to
follow the lead of Haitian civil society in determining when to
support elections in Haiti, and respect the current efforts to
solve the crisis as they want to.
Specifically, by organizing a nonpartisan, non-coerced and
consensus-based team of civil society and political actors
capable of ensuring the governance of the country, filling the
institutional void at the head of the country since the end of
President Moise's constitutional mandate on February 7, 2021,
and restore democratic order.
The U.S. should investigate money laundering and arms
trafficking, human rights abuses, and other illegal acts by
Haitian officials and private sector leaders and apply
sanctions, including under the Global Magnitsky Act where
applicable.
It is time to send a clear signal to those who are
squandering State resources with impunity, and those who
continue to shed blood and violate human rights. The United
States should support Haitian civil society's call for the
immediate release of those arrested on February 7, 2021, and
not give credence to the Government's narrative, given the lack
of credible evidence of the coup attempt.
To conclude, I want to state clearly that the people of
Haiti are resolute in their desire for a true democracy, a
democracy that works for all, and need to be able to count on
the support of their friends and partners, including the U.S.
Government, in this pursuit.
Thank you very much. And I look forward to your questions.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Douyon follows:]
domi
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Chairman Meeks. Thank you.
Ms. Guerline Jozef, you are now recognized for 5 minutes.
STATEMENT OF MS. GUERLINE JOZEF, PRESIDENT, HAITIAN BRIDGE
ALLIANCE
Ms. Jozef. Good morning. Thank you so much for having me.
My name is Guerline Jozef. I am the Co-founder and Executive
Director of the Haitian Bridge Alliance.
The Haitian Bridge Alliance provides direct service
advocating, organizing on behalf of Black immigrants from the
Caribbean entering Haiti, from the Afro-Latinx community, and
our brothers and sisters from Africa.
Today it is with a saddened heart that I am before you. As
we are speaking, there is a flight to Haiti carrying asylum
seekers who have made a dangerous journey coming to our borders
to ask for asylum. Today, this morning, as we speak, over 129
people are on a flight to Haiti, including what seems to be a
newborn baby just a few days old.
It is unconscionable for us as a country, as a people, as
this great United States of ours, to continue the cruel,
inhuman practice and lack of respect to the lives of those most
vulnerable.
As we stand today, with all the faith, with all the hope,
as we heard from my colleague Emmanuela, the situation on the
ground in Haiti we understand that for too long we have been
silent. The partnership between Haiti and the United States
needs to be better. We understand that too many lives are at
risk. We understand that this cannot continue.
Haiti has not always been a migrant-sending country, but
due to ongoing natural disasters, as we all know, in 2010, the
earthquake that killed over 2,000--200,000 people, leaving the
infrastructure of Haiti completely destroyed. Consequently, the
storms and the cholera epidemic that was brought into the
country by, unfortunately, health relief workers from the
United Nations, sill we are dealing with those aftershocks.
Today, in 2021, we still feel the aftershock of the
earthquake. We see people leaving the country in search for a
place to live, and search for freedom, and in search for
refuge. But we, as the United States, turn our backs once again
to the Haitian community.
We understand that the immigration prison system as we know
it today was a direct response to the Haitian refugees arriving
on our shores in the 1980's. Enough is enough. Today, as we
look back, what is currently happening in the country, in the
middle of the uprising, in the middle of the people of Haiti
once again asking, fighting for life and for justice, we cannot
continue to do that.
I will share one quick story with you of a woman who shared
with us. She and her husband and her child, just 4 months old,
was deported to Haiti 4 weeks ago. She shared with us that she
was kidnapped. She was raped, barely escaped, was able to leave
the country. Went to Chile in 2017. In turn, she experienced
extreme racism which forced her again to leave to search for
safety.
Upon arriving at the U.S.-Mexico border she stayed a year-
and-a-half, 18 months waiting for a chance to ask for asylum.
Four weeks ago she finally mustered the courage and took
the chance. What she shared with me was that upon arriving she
was not even given the chance to state her case. They did not
even ask her, Why are you here? What are your fears?
She was immediately detained for 10 days without access to
any sanitary--access to any sanitation. She was held for 10
days without access to a bathroom, to a shower, without access
to a toothbrush or toothpaste, with her child, her infant, who
ended up having to soil his clothes. And she was denied access
to change the infant's clothes, and denied access to change her
own clothes.
At 4 a.m. in the morning she was awakened and told to come
to get breakfast, which happened to be a bean burrito. When
asked, Can I leave my child to sleep because it is too early
and it is cold? they told her no. She pled with them. They told
her that--these are her words--if you do not bring the baby, we
will drag her out.
So, these are the conditions that we see Black immigrants,
including asylum seekers, specifically Haitians, being treated
as they come and ask for asylum.
It is clear the conditions we see----
Chairman Meeks. Thank you.
Ms. Jozef [continuing]. We see these conditions for Haiti.
So, we are asking, we are demanding that we protect those
lives. We are demanding that we have the cease to expulsion to
Haiti immediately.
We are asking that the flight that left today be returned
to the United States with that infant, with the students.
Chairman Meeks. Thank you.
Ms. Jozef. We are asking for----
Chairman Meeks. Thank you.
Ms. Jozef. Thank you so much.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Jozef follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Chairman Meeks. Thank you.
I now recognize Ms. Auguste for 5 minutes.
STATEMENT OF MS. ROSY AUGUSTE, PROGRAM DIRECTOR, NATIONAL
NETWORK FOR THE DEFENSE OF HUMAN RIGHTS (RNDDH)
[The following statement and answers were delivered through
an interpreter.]
Ms. Auguste. Chairman Meeks, Ranking Member McCaul, Members
of the U.S. House of Representatives, Members of the Foreign
Affairs committee, good morning. My name is Rosy Auguste
Ducena. I am a lawyer and program manager for the National
Network for the Defense of Human Rights. Thank you for the
opportunity to share with you accurate information about the
human rights violations that are taking place in Haiti.
We wish to present an abbreviated version of our testimony
that has already been presented to the committee and is
available to anyone who is interested.
Since 2017, human rights organizations have continued to
denounce what is happening in Haiti. However, despite these
denunciations, the U.S. administration, the OAS, the U.N. have
given, always giving their unconditional support to the de
facto President Jovenel Moise to the detriment of the Haitian
people.
Today the Republic of Haiti is ruled by one man, who has
granted himself the power of the legislative and judicial
branches, in addition to those of the executive branch.
There are three main reasons why elections cannot be held
in Haiti in 2021:
First of all, the Haitian State is unable to issue the
electoral cards to voters.
The electoral council is illegitimate and its Members have
not been sworn in by the Haitian Supreme Court, and it has an
unconstitutional mandate to organize a referendum.
The current insecurity will not allow candidates to
campaign or voters to cast their ballot without constraint on
election day.
Indeed, the insecurity in the country is characterized by
acts of violence against life and property. In 2020 alone, more
than 1,085 people, including 37 police officers, were
assassinated in Haiti.
In January and February 2021, at least 65 people were
murdered, including three police officers.
In June 2020, the armed gangs federated with the blessing
of the current government. They were influential enough to
appoint a director Social assistance funds- (which is a State
institution created to help disabled and people in needs). The
gangs demanded and obtained the dismissal of a minister.
From 2018 to 2020, at least 10 massacres were perpetrated
in Port-au-Prince, resulting in the assassination of 323
people, 98 others disappeared, 38 women gang raped, 251
children became orphans.
Since 2020, 4 to 5 people are kidnapped every day, among
them women and girls who have generally become victims of gang
rape. People victims claim they were kidnapped by uniformed
police and transported in government vehicles. Others said they
were handed over, ransomed to people accompanied by police
officers.
Influential Members of the government are negotiating and
arranging the transportation of the hostages. Furthermore, the
Haitian judiciary system is completely dysfunctional. The
impact of this dysfunction is enormous on the prison
population, more than 84 percent of whom are awaiting trial.
Anti-government demonstrations are systemically repressed,
while those organized by armed gangs are secured by the police.
Today, despite the fact that his mandate ended on February
7, 2021, Jovenel Moise refused to leave office. Meanwhile, he
controlled the country with his personal intelligence agency,
the coalitions of armed gangs, a brigade created to monitor
protected areas transformed into an arms villages.
A specialized police unit created to provide security for
the President. But now to his cause. He mobilized only a
weakened and politicized police force.
Based on what we have shared with you, we call on the Biden
Administration to listen and respect Haitian civil society's
demands, and recognize that the mandate of President--former
President Jovenel Moise has ended; stop supporting an electoral
process that will lead to political instability. Instead,
support free and fair elections with a legitimate electoral
council resulting from a political agreement.
The U.S. Government must distance themselves from the
process of an unconstitutional referendum. Prosecute Members of
this regime involved in human rights violations, corruption,
money laundering on American soil.
Investigate the flow of illegal weapons from the U.S. which
are easily smuggled into Haitian territory. These weapons
emphasize insecurity and strike fear in the hearts of every
Haitian.
Thank you very much. And I look forward to your questions.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Auguste follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Chairman Meeks. Thank you.
I now yield 5 minutes to Ambassador Pamela White.
STATEMENT OF HON. PAMELA WHITE, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO
HAITI, U.S. STATE DEPARTMENT
Ms. White. Good morning. Thank you so much for having this
hearing.
My name is Pamela White, and I am the former U.S.
Ambassador to Haiti from 2012 to 2015. I first served in Haiti
from 1985 to 1990, my first tour as a foreign service officer.
I witnessed the removal of Baby Doc and the subsequent horror
show that went on for years after his departure.
Most of my career was working for USAID from 1978 to 2010,
when I became Ambassador to The Gambia. That is 30-plus years
of development experience, including serving as USAID Mission
Director in Mali, Tanzania, and Liberia.
These are my opinions and not the USG's opinions.
As you all know, the situation in Haiti is highly volatile.
Every single day there are reports of decapitations, rapes, and
murders. Kidnappings are at an all-time high. The human rights
situation is deplorable. Four million Haitians are suffering
food insecurity, more than half are living on less than $2.40 a
day. There is a weak judiciary, a threatened press, and no
parliament. In short, Haiti is once again a mess.
With this background in mind, I will touch on two issues:
the elections and aid.
First the elections. It is difficult for me to imagine
having successful elections this year in Haiti. Putting aside
for the moment the question of President Moise should have left
in February, or should he leave next February, I do not know
the answer, but I do not believe that right now the necessary
institutions are in place to assure a smooth transition. The
USG, the OAS, and the U.N. have all stated that Moise's term
ends in 2022, but several Haitian constitutional experts as
well as Harvard, Yale, and NYU law school clinics disagree.
The CEP was appointed last year. That CEP does not have
representatives from organizations that are critical, like the
church. The last CEP resigned en masse, refusing to serve under
President Moise. The Supreme Court refused to swear in the
current Members. I do not believe the current CEP can be
considered legit. This can be quickly corrected if parties come
to the table.
I have been told that 2.8 million voters have been
registered, but only 1.7 million cards have been issued. Over 6
million voters were registered in 2016. The current government
says they have the capability to register 2 million voters a
month, but they are currently falling way short. An impartial,
neutral audit needs to happen yesterday.
There is also the money problem. The last elections cost
over $150 million dollars. I wonder how international support
there will be for elections that are so tainted. I do not see
the USG giving $33 million, as it did in 2016, considering the
current chaos.
The international community will have to draw some firm
lines in the sand that will hold Haitian leadership accountable
for both a smooth transition and vastly improved security. If
lines are crossed, money will stop.
Helen La Lime, the very talented U.N. Special
Representative, said in her last report that ``above all
else,'' ``above all else, a minimal consensus among relevant
political stakeholders would greatly contribute to creating an
environment conducive to the holding of a Constitutional
referendum and subsequent elections.''
Although I think the entire question of a referendum to
change the constitution is extremely dubious, I completely
agree with the rest of her statement. If we do not get minimal
consensus among the relevant actors, Haiti will not be able to
pull off credible elections, period.
Here are a few quick suggestions.
If President Moise will not step down, he should step
aside. He must be completely transparent and honest. He must
bring relevant actors to the table. A well-respected Haitian
should be appointed prime minister. He or she should
immediately dissolve the current CEP and call a summit with all
relevant political actors to establish a legal CEP.
I would hope the U.N. and USG could both help fund such a
summit and commit to acting as mediators, if asked. The voter
registration also needs immediate help.
The new prime minister's team will also need to articulate
a security plan. If President Moise stays in power, his job
will be to maintain peace. Stop the brutal beatings and the
gang violence. Start acting like a Statesman.
Let me quickly also touch on the topic of foreign aid. I
believe Haitians desperately need humanitarian aid such as food
aid and basic health care. USAID can deliver both, even under
the worst political conditions. But, I do not believe that
regular, normal development activity can be carried out in this
current violent atmosphere.
Free and fair elections are important pieces to any
democracy's complex puzzle. But having an election will not
transform Haiti. It never has and it never will.
Thank you so much for your time.
[The prepared statement of Ms. White follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Chairman Meeks. Thank you, Madam Ambassador.
I want to thank all of the witnesses. Now, there are
bipartisan witnesses, and all of them have basically just said
Haiti's a mess. The people are suffering. This has to stop.
There has got to be some order.
That is the reason why we are doing this hearing. And this
committee is going to continue to look so that the people of
Haiti get better. They deserve better. And we have to work
collectively to do that.
So, now I am going to recognize Members for 5 minutes. And
I just want to thank all of the witnesses for their testimony.
It just breaks my heart listening. But now it is making me more
determined that we have got to do something, and we have got to
do it collectively.
I am going to recognize Members for 5 minutes each,
pursuant to the House rules. And all time yielded is for the
purposes of questioning our witnesses.
I will recognize Members by committee seniority,
alternating between Democrats and Republicans. If you miss your
turn, please let our staff know and we will come back to you.
If you seek recognition, you must unmute your microphone and
address the Chair verbally, and identify yourself so that we
know who is speaking.
I will start by recognizing myself for 5 minutes.
Let me start with Ms. Douyon. You know, there is a lot of
skepticism among Haiti's civil society that the Moise
administration can preside over fair and credible elections.
Tell me, what do you think, do you consider the current
provisional electoral council to be independent, legitimate,
and able to administer free, fair, and credible elections?
Ms. Douyon. Thank you. Thank you, Chairman Meeks.
I do not recognize the CEP as legitimate to organize
elections. First of all, the way it was constituted. It does
not reflect the constitution, and the people who are involved
were not sent by key sectors of civil society in Haiti. It was
not presented at the court, at the Supreme Court, like it was
supposed to do.
This is an illegal CEP. And there is no way this CEP could
organize fair, credible elections.
Chairman Meeks. Thank you.
Madam Ambassador White, do you agree?
Ms. White. One hundred percent.
Chairman Meeks. Now, let me ask also, what role do you
believe the multilateral groups, like Core Group or CARICOM, or
other interested parties in the international community, should
play in Haiti?
And how can the United States best engage with our
international partners so that we, the international, speak
with one voice, not divided? No, we cannot be divided when it
comes to Haiti. We have to all speak with one voice and be
clear about it.
Ms. White. Are you speaking to me still?
Chairman Meeks. Yes.
Ms. White. Absolutely, yes. Thank you, Chairman.
The Core Group is essential to come together and speak with
one voice. You are absolutely right. The U.S. Government has
always been if not the leading voice, certainly one of the
leading voices on that Core Group because no one gives more to
Haiti than the United States of America, in many, many ways,
not just monetarily.
But I think that the leadership we need to have at that
Core Group meeting, we need to have a clear view of how we are
going to articulate our policy for the next 18 months at least.
And I think your Chair, your leadership can help them define
how to move forward.
Because as I said in my statement, we need to have clear
lines in the sand. If this does not happen, the money stops, we
need to look at what our policies are going to be.
I was,, reading about the United Nations, and the U.S., and
the OAS all saying that they support means to stay for another
year, but I did not hear what the conditionality for that was.
And I would like to hear that articulated.
Chairman Meeks. Thank you.
Ms. Jozef, what about this constitutional referendum? Now,
I have heard that part of the constitution needs to be
reformed. But what are your thoughts, should there be a
referendum in June? Or should it not be? Are the people ready?
Give me your thoughts on a constitutional referendum.
Ms. Jozef. Chairman Meeks, as a Haitian-American woman,
witnessing what is happening in the middle of this chaos, as we
just heard from all those people, all those witnesses, for me
the answer is no. I do not believe a referendum for the
constitution right now is something that is going to make the
changes that are needed.
If the constitution as is is not even respected, what
change will come from having a referendum in June, in less than
6 months?
So, my answer is no.
I think we should continue to push for a free, elected--for
free assistance in Haiti at this moment. I personally do not
think, you know, a referendum on the constitution in June is
warranted.
Chairman Meeks. Thank you.
And let me real quick go back to Ms. Douyon. What about
this influx of returning Haitians--I think you testified to
that--of Haitian immigrants, how does that impact the Haitian
economy, especially given a loss of remittances in dollars, et
cetera?
You know, what are some of the alternatives that you think
that we should be looking at in the Biden Administration other
than the deportations?
Ms. Douyon. Okay. First of all, I have to mention--thank
you, Chairman Meeks--I have to mention since the political
crisis is getting worse, more and more people are immigrating
to the U.S. illegally. And with COVID-19 and other problems we
have witnessed somehow a decrease in the amount of remittances
that are being sent to Haiti. At some point the checks is
increased, but later it decreased.
But the current economic situation in Haiti, even the same
amount that the people used to send in Haiti is not enough. And
with deportation, it is not going to help Haiti because those
people who fled they were, like, fleeing the worsening living
condition in Haiti. And sending them back in with an increase
in crime levels and a surge of kidnappings, I do not think this
is the best thing to do for Haiti right now.
And, also, this is why it is urgent to restore peace and
democratic order in Haiti so we are not dealing with this kind
of situation.
Chairman Meeks. Thank you.
My time has expired. And I will recognize the Ranking
Member McCaul from the great state of Texas.
Mr. McCaul. I thank the Chairman from the great state of
New York, his acknowledging me.
Let me just first say I agree with the Chairman, these
stories have been very compelling and, quite honestly, very
sad. It is a sad state of affairs. And I think that, Mr.
Chairman, thanks for holding this hearing. I think it has
caught those two delighted Members that had no idea that Haiti
was in such bad shape.
And I think we have a responsibility to do something about
it, as does the United Nations, and the OAS as well.
My first question is to Ambassador White. You know, in
Mexico we had the Merida Initiative where we had financial
assistance tied to metrics regarding governance and rule of law
to help better shape the situation. And from the testimoneys I
heard, there really is no rule of law in Haiti right now.
Can you tell us how we could effectuate assistance better
to get the situation under control?
Ms. White. Yes. Thank you so much for your question.
I think we need, as I said again, however you want to call
it, I call it drawing lines in the sand, but we need a very
clear map of what, what we are expecting out of government, the
Government in Haiti. And if we do not get the minimum that we
are hoping out of the Government of Haiti, we need to have some
conditionality.
And I was explaining this the other day to one of my
friends, and I was saying because the word ``conditionality,''
conditionality linked to aid became a very dirty word in the
late 1990's and early 2000's around give them the money, it is
their country, let them do what they want to do.
And I always believed that United States directive that no,
you have to have conditions for aid. The U.S. taxpayer expects
something to come out of their hard-earned money. And we have
to articulate exactly what that is. And that needs to happen.
Mr. McCaul. Well, I could not agree with you more. And I
think the taxpayers deserve that and want that. And, otherwise,
if you pour money into a corrupt government or system, it is
not going to get the results that you are looking for and then,
therefore, waste the money.
Let me ask you about the Haitian National Police.
Previously the military seemed to control and there was a lot
of corruption with the military in Haiti. And they, one of the
reforms I think that has been more positive is the Haitian
National Police.
Do you agree with that? And should we be doing more to help
them?
Ms. White. Yes. When I left Haiti in 2015, let me tell you,
I was very proud of the Haitian National Police. They had a
good reputation. They were working with a lot of our people,
from SOUTHCOM, and from different police forces in the United
States.
It was a great partnership. And I think that New York, yes,
New York, especially New York by the way, Chairman Meeks. And I
thought they were, you know, an organization that was
relatively not corrupt and did a really good job with very
little resources.
I think we need more resources in the National Police. And
I think we need more of that mentoring. I do not know if it is
still ongoing, but we need more of it. Because I have heard
from my many, many Haitian friends, that at least big portions
of the police are becoming more and more corrupt. And that is
really, really sad because they were a very decent
organization.
Chairman Meeks. Yes. I think we need to focus on that, too.
Mr. McCaul. My last question to anybody on the panel, we, I
think the selection, one of the testimoneys was that $150
million to have an election down there, OAS is involved, the
United Nations, and the United States. How can we use that $150
million wisely?
And I do not think the President is going to step aside
until his term is done. And I know, Ambassador White, that was
your first premise. But I do not think that that is going to
happen. So, short of that, what do we do with the $150 million
to make sure this is as free, and fair elections that we can?
Ms. Douyon. Thank you, Ranking Member McCaul. If you will
allow, I want to answer this question.
Mr. McCaul. Sure.
Ms. Douyon. First of all, about the term of the President.
His term ended last February 7th. And about the election, with
that amount of money I think it would be better for the
international community, and anyone interested in founding
elections in Haiti, to wait until a fair election can happen in
Haiti.
At the present time there is no possibility that we can
have fair, credible, inclusive elections. If anyone spends
money on organizing elections now, it will only lead to another
crisis because people will not be able to participate. And we
have a very low turnover in the last election. Less than 30
percent of people participated in those elections
And if you have elections with kidnappings and this crime
level, I do not know if many people would be able to join, to
campaign, to participate in those elections. And I do not know
who in the civil society is going to accept the result of those
elections.
And even if you spend this amount of money, I do not trust
the government to be able to organize elections when they
cannot even manage dire shortage in the country. How could they
organize elections? I do not trust them to do that.
Mr. McCaul. Well, thank you, Emmanuela. I think that is the
answer. I do not think we can have free and fair elections with
the current President in office. Until he steps down, perhaps
you should not be having an election until that time it seems
to me.
So, thanks for that clarification. That is I think very
helpful testimony.
And thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
Chairman Meeks. Thank you.
I now recognize the Chair of the Subcommittee on Western
Hemisphere, Civilian Security, Migration and International
Economic Policy, and all the work that he has been doing on the
subcommittee, particularly as it is focused on Haiti,
Representative Albio Sires from New Jersey for 5 minutes.
Mr. Sires. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am glad you are
holding this as a full committee hearing because I see a lot of
people are participating in this process. And people need to
know what is going on in Haiti.
You know, I visited Haiti a couple, a few years ago. And I
met with the President. And back then he told me point blank
that he wanted to revise the military. And I said to him, with
the needs that you have in this country, why would you want to
revise the military?
I said to him, look, Costa Rica does not have an army and
they are thriving. Why do you feel that Haiti has--needs an
army?
He said, well, it is the constitution.
The other thing, we visited the National Police. They were
doing a great job then. But it seems to me that this President
step by step has been creating the military, get rid of judges,
creating central intelligence, so he can maintain himself in
power.
Now, my question to the panel is, how do we stop that?
Because are the Ambassadors of the country speaking up enough
about it? Is the European Union speaking up about it? Are the
neighboring countries speaking up about it?
You know, we have invested a great deal of money in Haiti.
And for this President to say that he needs a military, you
know, to me was just ridiculous.
So, I was wondering if somebody can take that question?
Ms. White. I can.
Ms. Auguste. Can I answer?
Today the questions that are being raised are very
important questions. First, we must acknowledge that it was a
PHTK regime that unilaterally agreed to demobilize the Haitian
army.
We also know the former Haitian army was involved in grave
human rights violations. There was nothing done to hold them
accountable against the crimes committed against the Haitian
population.
Today we have a weakened police force because the
Government has decided to support armed gangs within the
country instead of providing resources to the Haitian police.
The criminal gangs we have in the country have more weapons
than the police forces themselves.
Mr. Sires. Ambassador White, can you tell me if other
Ambassadors----
Ms. Auguste. Today, when we are talking about the mandates
of former President Jovenel Moise, he used the constitution to
say that the mandate of parliament ended. Today, the Haitian
population is using the same calculations to say that his
mandate has ended.
Mr. Sires. All right. Ambassador White, can you just speak
to the question of have other Ambassadors spoken up about what
is going on in Haiti?
Ambassador White.
Mr. Meeks. You are muted, Ambassador White. Please unmute.
Ms. White. Sorry. Yes, they have certainly spoken out
against about all the violence. They have spoken out about
human rights abuses. What I am not sure about is, you know,
what are the consequences? You know, you can say, well, you
know, this is horrible and the situation is horrible and
Haiti's a mess, but what exactly do we do about it? So I have
not seen that articulated and it might have been articulated, I
have not personally seen it.
And just, if you will, this question of the army came up
when I was Ambassador there, and they kept saying, we want an
army, we want an army, and I kept saying, why would you want an
army? It just seems ridiculous.
Mr. Sires. Exactly. Well, thank you very much, Chairman. I
am finished. Thank you.
Mr. Meeks. The gentleman yields back. And now I recognize
the Ranking Member of the Subcommittee on Africa, Global
Health, and Global Human Rights, Representative Chris Smith of
New Jersey, for 5 minutes.
Mr. Smith. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and thank you
for convening this important hearing. You and the Ranking
Member, and Albio Sires, Chairman, have asked a lot of the
important questions about the political leadership. I would
like to just focus for a moment with our distinguished
witnesses. We all remember in 2010 when 200,000 people died
from the earthquake and 10 months later, there was a horrible
outbreak of cholera. And for about a century, Haiti had not
known cholera.
And after a great deal of investigation, Ban Ki-moon
finally came to the conclusion from an expert panel that it was
brought to Haiti by the peacekeepers from Nepal. It was a
strain that was found in Nepal and their camp was so,
unfortunately, unsanitary, their waste led to contaminated
water and about 800-plus thousand people got sick, 10,000
Haitians died--and there were commitments made.
I know CDC worked very hard on this as did our U.S.
Government State Department and USAID, to make sure that
sanitation was improved. But I wonder, just as a snapshot, has
it been improved to the point where there is robust sanitary
conditions in Haiti as a result of lessons learned so that
there is never again waterborne illnesses like the cholera that
was taken to so many people?
Second, there was talk of reparations and was even a
lawsuit, sadly, that was dismissed by a Federal judge about
reparations because this had a causation and it was U.N.
peacekeepers, and I am wondering if anyone would like to speak
to that issue. And, finally, on human trafficking, Mr.
Chairman, Haiti is a tier 2 country as per the last report by
TIP, trafficking in persons, but there is a very, very ongoing
serious problem of children being put into forced labor,
domestic servitude.
In 2014, Haiti passed a law, and I know the Ambassador
knows about that, on TIP. Enforcement has been lackluster to
say the least. There were no prosecutions during the reporting
period to the last TIP Report, the 2020 report, and I am just
wondering if our distinguished witnesses could shed light on
the status of victims and the prosecutions of traffickers and
the prevention strategies in Haiti.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield to the answers.
Ms. Douyon. Thank you, Congressman Smith. I do not have
enough data to comment on improvement in general sanitation
but, and number of instances of human trafficking, but what I
can say is that there is no real prosecution of criminal in
Haiti at this time. There is a lot of impunity and even people
who are involved in massacres are not pursued. They do not face
charge and are not held accountable, so I will not even mention
for all the cases.
And this is directly linked to corruption, rampant
corruption and impunity in Haiti. The overall situation is that
if we want to tackle some specific problem like human
trafficking and even bad living condition, it has a lot to see
with leadership and the governance of the country. And for the
past 4 years, Haiti has been in a crisis of leadership with a
President that himself is accused of being involved in
corruption. Therefore, there is little chance that we could see
any improvement in term of prosecution against people involved
in human trafficking or any other type of crime.
Mr. Smith. Thank you. Anybody else like to respond?
Ms. Jozef. Thank you so much. This is Guerline, Congressman
Smith. The reality is, as we know in Haiti when we speak of the
cholera, when we see what has happened, nothing has been done.
No reparation has been provided for those in impacted community
Members. It is unacceptable to see how not only, you know, what
we call the corruption in Haiti, but the way that the
international community always deals with issues in Haiti
whether it is things that are happening on the ground for that
the chaos, or even things such we see the United Nations, you
know, worker, unfortunately, with cholera due to lack of
sanitation, due to lack of infrastructure, to make sure that
the people that we are serving are protected.
So this is a clear example of how negative the entire
international community including as we can see the U.N. treats
Haiti when it comes to those types of issues.
Mr. Smith. Thank you.
Mr. Meeks. The gentleman's time has expired. Hold it. The
gentleman's time has expired. I now recognize Representative
Brad Sherman of California for 5 minutes.
Mr. Sherman. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you for holding
this hearing. Haiti and the United States have a long
relationship. It is, after all, our first sister republic here
in the Western Hemisphere. Unfortunately, Haiti is one of the
poorest nations of the Western Hemisphere.
Haiti has only 14,000 to 15,000 police in its Haitian
National Police which is less than international standards
would call for the policing of such a populated country.
Between 2008 and 2019, there were 3,200 Indian policemen who
were there as part of the U.N. And then our colleague Chris
Smith points out how U.N. peacekeepers from Nepal were a
problem for Haiti.
So I will ask first, Ms. Douyon, would international
peacekeepers or international police assistance be helpful in
providing for the rule of law in Haiti?
Ms. Douyon. Thank you, Congressman Sherman. Of course, help
is always welcome, but I would say that we need to focus more
on improving the capacity of the Haitian National Police.
Because what I notice, is that every time we have foreigners
coming, helping, when they leave, the local stuff is not better
off. We do not see any real improvement. It is like they come
here, do the job, but they do not really reinforce the capacity
of the police.
And at this time, the Haitian National Police is suffering
from bad reputation and some policemen are denouncing bad
working condition. They need increase in their salary. They
need the health care. They need a better environment to work
and we need even more police officer. So if I recommend
something or recommend that we work on the Haitian National
Police and show that every police officer can take care of his
family and they can get perfect training instead of bringing
more police officer from anywhere.
Mr. Sherman. The written reports say that there have been
251 COVID deaths in Haiti. That seems like a very low number.
Ms. White, should I believe that number or is it dramatically
understated?
Ms. White. Well, yes. I think--I do think you should
believe the number. Now I cannot quite figure it out myself
because there is at least eight or nine times that many of
COVID deaths right across the border in the DR. And as we all
know Haiti does not have exactly the most efficient healthcare
system in the world. But for whatever reason, a very, very
trusted doctor from, you know, that has ties to Cornell that is
a Haitian doctor, has confirmed to me that the number of COVID
deaths have been relatively low. And, you know, this is true in
Africa too.
Mr. Sherman. While I have you, I have one more question
that is Haiti is one of the 15 nations to recognize Taiwan. We
have the Beijing offering free assistance, concessionary loans.
Is Haiti better off sticking with Taiwan, and should we be
concerned with China trying to develop a relationship with the
Government of Haiti?
Ms. White. Is this for me again?
Mr. Sherman. Yes.
Ms. White. I do not know the extent of what the Chinese is
doing in Haiti anymore, to tell you the honest to God truth, so
I cannot really comment on that. But I have the Chinese slowly
creeping in all across Africa and Haiti, and I personally do
not think this is a good thing.
Mr. Sherman. They have sent hundreds of thousands of face
masks, thousands of tons of rice. That is to say Taiwan has to,
well, I guess there is only 15 nations with who they have a
relationship.
But then, finally, for whichever witness--oh, I have only
29 seconds. That is not enough time for anybody to answer a
question. I yield back.
Mr. Meeks. Thank you. The gentleman yields back. I now
recognize the Ranking Member of the Subcommittee on Asia, the
Pacific, Central Asia, and Nonproliferation, Representative
Steve Chabot of Ohio, for 5 minutes.
Mr. Chabot. Mr. Chairman?
Mr. Meeks. Yes.
Mr. Chabot. I am not sure if you can hear me. My screen
just went--froze.
Mr. Meeks. I hear you, Mr. Chabot. I do hear you. We hear
you.
Mr. Chabot. That was not a very judicious time for this
thing to freeze. I am not sure if anybody can hear me or not.
Mr. Meeks. We hear you, Mr. Chabot.
Mr. Chabot. I am just frozen here.
Mr. Meeks. Okay.
Mr. Chabot. Well.
Mr. Meeks. Mr. Chabot, can you hear me?
Mr. Chabot. Maybe we can come back to me, because I assume
you are probably not hearing me.
Mr. Meeks. We will come back to Mr. Chabot. So I will go
right now to Representative Brian Mast of Florida. You are now
recognized for 5 minutes.
Mr. Mast. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, for recognizing me, and
thank you to our witnesses for participating today as well. My
question goes to this, and it is open to any of our witnesses.
It is a general question for you and----
Mr. Sherman. I yielded back 29 seconds. I have never done
that before. Really.
Mr. Meeks. Mr. Sherman, put yourself on mute, please.
Mr. Mast. I think he muted. I think we are--it was just a
quick error. We will get over that one.
My question goes to our witnesses, generally, and I would
ask for reflection for America and overcoming our challenges
with the inception of our Nation and the founding of our
independence and creating of our democratic systems that we
rely on here, and what it is that individuals, just off my
shore as a Floridian, see that draw to come to here in the
United States of America, which I have a large Haitian
community as well within my area of south Florida.
What do you think can be learned and brought back to Haiti
to help replicate what it is that is drawing people here to our
shores?
Ms. Jozef. Thank you so much, Congressman Mast. This is
Guerline. I would like to take part of the question. First of
all, you know, we always talk about Haiti being the poorest
country in the Western Hemisphere, but we always fail to look
at the root causes of that fact going back 200 years, within
the relationships, and the fact that from the very inception of
Haiti, France forced with the international powers to Haiti to
pay, because we freed ourselves, to pay France for lost wages
of slavery that was created on our backs. So these are the very
root causes of Haiti being in the state that it is.
So we see from there, the continued, you know, in action,
misaction, and straight-out abuse of Haiti, in Haiti, on Haiti,
and we see that people leaving. As I previously mentioned,
Haiti was not a sending country. Haiti was a receiving country,
lighting the way for freedom not only for Haiti but other
places. Haiti was the only country that provided citizenship
for the Jews to escape so that they can get freedom.
So when we come back to what we experienced earlier this
year in this great United States of ours, and I must say that I
am both a proud Haitian woman and a proud American woman, so
there is a lot to be learned. There is a lot that can be used
to provide assistance and provide relief in Haiti. I believe
we----
Mr. Mast. Thank you for your response, ma'am. I just want
to pause you and ask you to continue, what is that piece to be
learned? That is what I want to get at. What is that piece to
be learned that you just said there is a lot to be learned?
What is that that needs to be brought back to Haiti to result
in success?
Ms. Jozef. Not to be brought back in Haiti, per se, but to
work with Haiti to be able to create a sustainable, you know,
solution. When we look into what we have, we are experiencing
here in the United States, how do we work with the Haitian
people to implement those things that can be successful so that
themselves can be able to live for themselves.
Mr. Mast. Very important point. I want us to work with the
Haitian people and I think we do do that very well. And there
is definitely room for improvement, but I know as a Floridian
this is something that touches us very close to home. I would
never, however, say that it is not more important, or rather
that--that it isn't more important that Haitians individually
within Haiti look in the mirror and say we cannot rely on
America, we cannot rely on France, we cannot rely on others. We
are hopeful for their assistance, but we have to look in the
mirror and say, how do we do this?
And that is what I hope we can really get to a root of is
what does Haiti have to look in the mirror and decide is going
to occur there, whether they get the assistance from the U.S.
or anybody else. What is it that they can look in the mirror
and do to correct what is missing there?
And in that, Mr. Chairman, I thank you for the time. And I
have nothing to yield back, but thank you for the time.
Ms. Douyon. Can I add something? Can I reply to that?
Mr. Meeks. The gentleman's time has expired. The
gentleman's time has expired.
Mr. Mast. The Chairman allows you.
Mr. Meeks. No, no. I cannot. We have a lot of Members
waiting to ask questions.
Ms. Douyon. Because this is so important.
Mr. Meeks. We will get to it. I will get it when someone
asks you the question next, maybe Mr. Connolly or someone else.
But I have got to yield the time now to the President of the
NATO Parliamentary Assembly, Representative Gerry Connolly of
the state of Virginia, for 5 minutes.
Mr. Connolly. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you to our
panel. You know, part of this discussion, it seems to me, we
have sort of ignored the America historical context with
respect to Haiti. And, Ms. Douyon, you may want to comment on
that as well as Ambassador White. You know, the American
history with Haiti is wretched.
After brutal French colonialism was overturned, we refused
to recognize a black, formerly enslaved government in Haiti
because it threatened slavery in America in the 19th century.
We refused commerce. We denied them access to trade and
investment, credits, and helped to impoverish the country and
keep it impoverished. We have invaded the country. We have
occupied the country. And we have installed governments and
taken down governments, and reinstalled governments.
And maybe I can start with you, Ambassador White, because
surely you are aware of that historical perspective. But it is
not like we--the current condition of Haiti is intrinsically
dysfunctional. There are historic reasons why it is in the
condition it is in, and a lot of it can be traced to American
policy and intervention, very little of it good over the
panoply of history.
So given that, shouldn't we tread a little lightly on
things like conditionality and dictating terms of what Haiti
needs to do and how best can the United States try to influence
positive and desirable outcomes in terms of democracy, in terms
of lifting people out of poverty, in terms of trying to promote
a more robust, economic growth that benefits everybody?
Ambassador White and then Ms. Douyon.
Ms. White. Yes, it is too bad we just do not have three or
4 hours for discussion because it is a long one, but you are
right. The history between the United States and Haiti is a
love-hate affair and has been for a long time. I distinctly
remember like I was saying, in 1986, when Bebe Dok left and I
remember sitting in the embassy and the Ambassador Adams, who
was a fabulous Ambassador, but he said we are going to have
elections.
And I remember saying, ``Elections? There is no political
party. There is no judiciary. There is no police except the
Tonton Macoute. How in the heck are we going to have
elections?'' ``That is what we do for a democracy.'' And I
think, you know, elections ever since have been, you know,
difficult.
But we--I know this idea of conditionality is one that
raises eyebrows, but I do think that if we are not saying
clearly what it is we are expecting of the Government of Haiti,
then we do not have a road map and we definitely need a road
map. Now we might be doing that. I am not in on any
discussions. I am not part of the core group. No one calls me
from Haiti--well, my Haitian friends, but not my American
friends, for advice.
So I do not know. We may be doing more of that. But they
deserve to know, you know, what they are getting for their
money.
Mr. Connolly. Thank you.
Ms. Douyon, I know you wanted to respond to both Mr. Mast
and hopefully my observation as well.
Ms. Douyon. Thank you, Congressman Connolly. I totally
agreed with the fact you shared about the history between U.S.
and Haiti, and it is true that it has been complicated. And to
reply to Congressman Mast comment, Haiti is not waiting for the
U.S., France, or any other country in the international
community. We have already decided what we want to do.
What we are asking is for the international community to
listen and respect our choice. We have a President whose term
ended last February. He has benefited from the support of OAS,
the U.S. State Department, and despite the fact that most of
Haiti's civil society acknowledges that his term ended
according to the Constitution, this is what we are facing now.
And this is a perfect example of when we do not listen to
Haitians, we cannot judge them later and blame them for the
outcome. And it is also important to differentiate between the
people who always stand for the country and most of the elected
officials who are usually corrupt and are minding their own
business and are defending their own interests, usually with
the support of the international community who is always saying
that they are supporting institutions, why they are supporting
people, people who are often decried by their own population.
This is the perfect case study with Joyenel Moise. But for
more than 2 years, people have been calling on him to resign.
Now we are not even calling on him to resign because his term
ended, we call him to vacate office. And he has the support of
the international community. We want to end with all those, the
corruption and impunity. We want to end with the old practices
and so many people do not want to give this chance to decide
for ourselves.
And this is why we are saying, we are having this hearing
now. This is our point. This is what we are defending, the
right to decide for ourselves and for the international
community to listen and follow the Haitian civil society lead,
because we know better. We know what is good for us. We know
where we made mistakes in the past. We are learning from this.
And it is trial and error. It is a young democracy. We are
learning and we are adjusting, and now is the turning point and
this is why we need solidarity, not the kind of comment like
this----
Mr. Connolly. Thank you for that.
Mr. Meeks. The gentleman's time----
Mr. Connolly. I yield back.
Mr. Meeks. The gentleman's time has expired. I think we are
still working to get Mr. Chabot on camera, so while we continue
to do that I will now recognize the Ranking Member of the
Subcommittee on the Western Hemisphere, Civilian Security,
Migration, and International Economy Policy, Representative
Mark Green of Tennessee, for 5 minutes.
Mr. Green. Thank you, Chairman Meeks and Ranking Member
McCaul, for holding this hearing on Haiti. It is an honor to
serve as the Ranking Member on Western Hemisphere, and,
obviously, this focus on Haiti is a critical aspect of our
subcommittee. I thank Chairman Sires for his comments as well,
his wisdom and experience.
When I founded my medical foundation, Align MD Foundation
and then Two Rivers Medical Foundation, we sent medical
missions, trips to Haiti. And the country was then challenged
with poverty, rule of law issues, and governance issues and,
unfortunately, the situation is only worse now. It is tragic
for many reasons. History makes it even more so.
Their first, you know, Haiti's first Constitution was
influenced by our own Alexander Hamilton who grew up in the
Caribbean himself. Unfortunately, pervasive corruption and
desperate poverty have long played the country. It remains one
of the poorest nations in the Caribbean, lagging far behind its
neighbors in basic measures of economic and political well-
being. The Haitian people need and deserve better. As a
neighbor, friend, and partner, we should do what we can.
But as we have all noted today, it is sadly an uphill
battle. The turmoil and instability, including the recent
prison break, underscore the absence of the rule of law. Haiti
ranks toward the bottom of many international comparisons for
transparency, economic development, and ease of doing business.
Sadly, recent events have shown us that Haiti still has a long
way to go.
My questions today are really for anyone who wants to chime
in. We are hearing that the prisons in Haiti are now at 384
percent capacity and my first thought is that some of these
arrests may very well be politically motivated, but also are
seeing large increases in violent crime. Can you share with us,
any one of the witnesses, about the state of criminal justice
in Haiti and what portion of those criminals are actually
criminals versus political prisoners, and also, you know, the
status of prisons? They are so full, you know, how is that
impacting criminal justice?
Ms. Auguste. Thank you very much, Congressman Mark Green.
We want to take your questions regarding the prison system in
Haiti. The people who are incarcerated are living an inhumane
condition. The current prison that we have can hold about 3,000
people and today we have 12,000 people incarcerated, so then
you can just imagine the deplorable condition that these
inmates are in.
And also given the dysfunction of the judicial system,
there is a lot of violations of the rights of those inmates
that are occurring on a regular basis. Like I said earlier, 84
percent of the incarcerated populations are awaiting trial.
There are people in there who have been incarcerated for 10
years and have not seen a judge. The worst thing for us today
is that yes, indeed, we have political prisoners. They are
people who are incarcerated because of their political belief
and their stand against this government.
So think about someone who spent 10 years in prison without
appearing before a judge and now individuals will also be
incarcerated for their political belief what that situation is
like. It is worsening daily. Unfortunately, no matter what
promises the government has made, they have done nothing to
resolve the issue of prolonged detentions for those inmates.
Thank you.
Mr. Green. If I could, I would also like to ask the
Ambassador if she might share a little bit of her perspective
on the spillover effects of what is going on in Haiti, how it
is spilling over in the region and the rest of the Caribbean
and, particularly, neighboring Dominican Republic.
Mr. Meeks. Ambassador White, please turn on your camera and
off mute.
Ambassador White, still with us?
Ms. White. Can you hear me now?
Mr. Meeks. Yes, I hear you now.
Ms. White. Okay, sorry. I have like three devices going
here and they are all running out of power. Let me just go over
here.
Yes, there is always spillover in the region. I mean the
DR, you know, has a booming economy and the Haitians are going
back and forth over the border every day. And what is worrying
me more and would worry me if I was still the Ambassador there,
is the amount of the huge increase in Haitians trying to get to
the United States.
And, you know, they use, you know, means to get there. They
are highly dangerous, you know, they die all the time. And we,
you know, the only way to stop immigration whether it is from
Haiti or Guatemala or wherever, Mexico, is to create better
conditions in the country so they do not want to leave. And so
the violence that is going on in Haiti right now, the lack of
rule of law, the lack of human rights, is driving Haitians out
of the country to almost anywhere else they can do to get any
kind of opportunity for their families.
And then in my statement, I said it is very hard to do
regular development activities in the midst of a violent
country so, you know, just one feeds off the other, and that is
why it is just so critical that the human rights situation, the
violence, the gangs, that situation has got to be looked at
immediately because I do not think you can do anything else
until you stop that.
Mr. Meeks. Thank you.
Ms. White. Including elections.
Mr. Green. My time has expired. Thank you, Chairman.
Mr. Meeks. The gentleman's time has expired. I now
recognize the Chair of the Subcommittee on Africa, Global
Health, and Global Human Rights, Representative Karen Bass from
California, for 5 minutes.
Ms. Bass. Well, thank you, Mr. Chair. I actually want to
continue right with the Ambassador right where she was going,
because I understood what you said in terms of the gangs and
all of that. The question is what should we do? I know that we
have mentioned the police, but it is my understanding that the
people we have trained, be it the police or the military, they
are the ones that shot live rounds into the protesters, and it
is questionable as to whether or not they were colluding with
the government. So the question to you is, what can we do as
the United States?
And then when you were Ambassador, I know that you
facilitated a number of rounds of negotiations between
conflicting parties, and I want to know based on your time
there, what lessons learned? What could you have done to have
prevented what you saw at the time and what should we be doing
now?
Now are you able--can you hear me? Yes, okay. Go ahead.
I do not want to lose my time with her technical problems.
Can we----
Ms. White. Sorry. I have got like three going. They are all
ready, they just keep----
Mr. Meeks. Your time is held until such time----
Ms. Bass. Thank you. Thank you.
Ms. White. I can hear you. Can you hear me?
Ms. White. Yes.
Mr. Meeks. Now we can hear you.
Ms. White. Do you want me to talk really fast?
Mr. Meeks. Yes, go now.
Ms. White. Okay, go. So I, yes, I had lots and lots of
meetings with the opposition even to the point of getting
attacked by mobs, I remember. If you are not bringing the
opposition to the negotiating table then you cannot make
progress. And I have no idea. I presume that they are doing
that all the time. You know, you have got to get out of your
office into their offices and open up the dialog. I just assume
that is being done, I do not know.
And it is a good question about the police. That I think
that we need--we cannot give up on the police. We have invested
millions of dollars in the police. They can be reinforced. They
can be--when I--they were in a very good position. We have got
to get----
Ms. Bass. Well, you know, I realize we have invested a lot
of money, but if our investment results in shooting innocent
people and colluding with the existing government that does not
sound like a good return on investment to me, so I am just
wondering if you have a thought. I have a couple of other
questions for our other witnesses, but if you have a thought as
to what we can do differently.
What did you learn during that time what can we do
differently? I do not want to reinforce an abusive police
force.
Ms. White. Yes, right. Right. Yes, yes. Got you.
Well, like I said, we have got to root out, tell them to
root out the bad actors. I mean you are right. They have been
seen shooting into, you know, into crowds. Root out the bad
actors. We did that before. We did that. There were bad actors
when I was there too. And we had this fabulous New York
policeman that would come down and they would do audits. They
would do interviews. They would do training. And I just think
we have to go back to that.
Ms. Bass. All right. Thank you, Madam Ambassador.
Let me move on to Ms. Douyon. And, you know, one, it is
clear we do not need to have a referendum for the Constitution,
the elections are going to be shaky, so the question is what
should we do? Not change the Constitution, postpone the
elections, what is it? And I also believe very deeply that we
need to address root causes. But for right now, if no election,
then what?
Ms. Douyon. Thank you, Congresswoman Bass. First of all,
what you can do is cancel the CEP. Recommend. It is not up to
you to cancel it. You have to recommend.
Ms. Bass. Cancel what?
Ms. Douyon. I said that you have to cancel the CEP, but I
correct my language and I said, it is not up to you to cancel
it, it is to not support Joyenel Moise with that CEP. The CEP
is electoral council. We do not, we cannot continue with an
illegal electoral council. We cannot have a referendum that is
illegal and we have to listen to civil society.
And the solution now is, since the term of the President
ended last month, we have to consider the nonpartisan
consensus-based team that is capable of leading the country on
a nice fair election, restore peace, improve on----
Ms. Bass. Do you have respected leaders that if the
President was called on to step aside are their respectable,
unifying leaders that we could call for should be a part of
that team that you just mentioned?
Ms. Douyon. Of course, it would be a disaster if there were
no qualified, serious, and noncorrupt Haitians capable of
leading our country.
Ms. Bass [continuing]. Qualified people, the question is--
--
Ms. Douyon. Serious and noncorrupt people, yes. They exist.
People like this exist. There are many people like this. And
actually there is a consensus among civil society that we can
have such team, all we need to do is to have Joyenel Moise to
vacate and----
Ms. Bass. Can you tell us--my time has run out, but can you
tell us who those people are, what the team would be? And you
do not have to answer right this second, but can you send it to
us?
Ms. Douyon. I cannot name anyone because of the current
situation in Haiti. I am afraid if I identify them now they
might be arrested.
Ms. Bass. All right.
Ms. Douyon. Just like the judges.
Mr. Meeks. The gentlelady's time has expired. The
gentlelady's time has expired. I now recognize Representative
Andy Barr from Kentucky for 5 minutes.
Mr. Barr. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I really appreciate
your leadership on this issue in bringing this issue to the
attention of our committee. It is such an important issue.
And I represent in central Kentucky a faith community that
has invested considerable time and resources in mission trips
to Haiti. They bring back beautiful stories of a wonderful
people, yes, impoverished people, people who are struggling,
but wonderful people who deserve better. And so many churches
around this country have sponsored mission trips similar to
those of my constituents and we want the best for the people of
Haiti. And the very regrettable track record of human rights
violations and violence and corruption is obviously something
we are all interested in.
But let me start by asking Ambassador White kind of a
fundamental question which is, aside from the obvious
humanitarian interest that we have in improving the conditions
in Haiti, what would you say is, if any, the strategic national
security interest of the United States in that country and is
it the historic connection between Haiti and Taiwan and
potentially countering a Chinese Communist Party Belt and Road
initiative in Haiti?
Ms. White. Well, that is a real possibility. But I think
more, you know, more to the point is that if we do not develop
Haitians and give Haitians a decent quality of living,
including giving them something to do, you know, employment and
basic health care and human rights, that we are going to find
them on our doors in huge numbers and we just are not able to
do that.
Mr. Barr. Let me ask you a question about the comment that
you made, I would really appreciate it, Ambassador, about
conditionality with foreign aid. And Mr. Connolly's recitation
of American history with respect to Haiti, you know, the
American people, American taxpayers, not just in terms of these
mission trips, but the taxpayers deserve substantial credit and
generosity here.
You know, what I am reading is just since the earthquake
alone, the United States taxpayer has invested $5.1 billion,
and since 2011, USAID, $1.8 billion, a hundred million in 2020
alone. I would just argue and, Ambassador, I invite your
feedback, if U.S. foreign aid was the answer to Haiti's many
problems, then those problems would have been solved a long
time ago.
I mean there absolutely no shortage of American and
international funding here. It has just been so badly
mismanaged and subject to corruption. And so, please, amplify
your testimony about the critical importance of conditionality
associated with any additional taxpayer investment in Haiti in
terms of anticorruption efforts.
Ms. White. Yes, people usually ask about this. And I must
say that after the earthquake, we had about two billion dollars
after the earthquake. It killed 300,000 people. I mean
everything was gone. The port and the roads were gone. The
airport was gone. And I mean that people kept saying, ``But you
had two billion dollars.'' And I said, ``I needed 20 billion to
rebuild the Nation after an earthquake of that size.''
So though it looks like a tremendous amount of money, it
is, you know, to rebuild from nothing, believe me, we did a
fantastic job. We did get Haiti together again. Fifty percent
of Americans, they emptied out their pockets to help make that
happen. And by the way, the NGO's and the religious groups get
a bad name in Haiti, but thank God for the religious NGO's who
are doing a fabulous job down there----
Mr. Barr. And reclaiming my time, I do not have much time
left, Ambassador White, but I do want to followup on
Representative Sherman's important question about Taiwan. Are
we seeing an active Belt and Road initiative from the Chinese
and post-pandemic, a Chinese malign influence in the Caribbean
impacting Haiti in a way that would, you know, separate Haiti
as an ally of Taiwan, and as one of only 15 countries
maintaining official recognition with Taiwan? Is there any
information you can give us on that?
Ms. White. I am sorry, but there really isn't. I do not
know what Taiwan is up to. I do not.
Mr. Barr. Okay. All right. Well, thank you again, Mr.
Chairman, for the hearing. It is very illuminating. And I yield
back.
Mr. Meeks. The gentleman's time has expired. I now
recognize the Chair of the Subcommittee on the Middle East,
North Africa, and Global Counterterrorism, Representative Ted
Deutch from Florida.
Mr. Deutch. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thanks for calling
this important hearing. Thanks to all the witnesses for your
candid and powerful testimony. I share the concerns several of
my colleagues have already expressed over the current situation
in Haiti. And as a representative of south Florida as my
colleague from south Florida, Mr. Mast, mentioned a little
while ago, this is an issue that hits close to home for so many
in the Haitian diaspora community in my district.
And I would like to start by continuing the conversation
about protocol concerns for the proposed elections. I think we
can all agree elections are sorely needed. We all agree that
the Haitian people deserve free, fair, and credible elections.
And I have heard the concerns of our witnesses today that the
current proposed CEP is illegitimate, even illegal, and I have
heard similar concerns from Haiti civil society and from the
diaspora community in my district.
So, Ms. Auguste, in your view, are there any reforms that
would make the current provisional electoral council as
proposed by the administration independent, legitimate, and
able to administer free, fair, and credible elections?
Ms. Auguste.
Ms. Auguste. Yes. Thank you, Congressman Deutch. With
regard to the current CEP, it is not possible to have election
with this illegal CEP and we have already enumerated the
various reason why that cannot happen. Earlier, when I was
talking about insecurity, I would like to add a few points for
you to better understand what is going on in the country.
Today, the Ouest Department and the Artibonite Department
represent 60 percent of the Haitian electorate. The majority of
these voters are being housed in the same place where there are
many gangs, gangs that are associated with the current
government. That also means all candidates who are not
associated with those gangs and the government will not be able
to go into those neighborhoods to campaign.
Within 2 years, the government made three million electoral
cards. So far, they have distributed less than two million.
They were supposed to have done 7,500,000 cards for the voters
to be able to participate in the election process. If we are
saying that election will take place in September, that will
mean in August all the electoral cards have to be distributed.
It is virtually impossible within the current situations for
the Haitian Government to realize that.
Mr. Deutch. Ms. Auguste, I appreciate that. I just have a
bit, excuse me, a bit more time. So let me just, if I may,
thank you, and--sorry, everyone. I want to just, given what you
just said, Ms. Auguste, I just want to address the position
that has been emphasized by some of our Members and witnesses
here today, which is that any election or referendum that is
overseen by the Moise administration would automatically be
seen by the Haitian people as illegitimate.
We have seen on the ground, I have heard, firsthand, human
rights groups and opposition leaders maintaining that Moise's
term ended February 7th and an interim government is necessary
to organize elections now. The question, Ambassador White, that
I have for you is, if the provisional electoral council cannot
meet the standard of being free, fair, and credible, but the
current President does not step down, how can Congress and the
Biden Administration and the international community play a
responsible role in ensuring that any election that is held is
credible and legitimate and then facilitating the public
acceptance of the results and in mediating between the Moise
administration and the opposition?
That is what we are trying to do. I think that is what we
need to do. Ambassador?
Ms. White. Yes. Well, as I said in my testimony, I think
that we, you know, it would be nice if he would step down, but
I do not think that is going to happen. So I think if we sort
of put him aside, you know, in the best of all worlds, and we
have a prime minister appointed that is noncorrupt, that is not
from the political sector, is not from the private sector--
there are several really good candidates. I am not going to
name them, but there are several--and then we have this summit
that we get to and we put out the old CEP, we have a summit
where the actors come back to the table and we discuss how we
can get the right representation to inform it to have a CEP
that is credible, I mean that is one solution that I can see
happening within the very near future.
I think the problem with transitional governments is then
we are in that mess again and it slows down everything here. It
is not that I am--in fact, I wrote a piece, or talked for a
piece in the New Yorker, a couple years ago, when I said I
think that is exactly what we need. But I think right now we
could use the prime minister option.
Mr. Deutch. Thank you very much. I think my time has
expired. Thanks, Ambassador. Thanks to all the witnesses. Mr.
Chairman, thanks for this very important hearing today. Yield
back.
Mr. Meeks. And, you are right. The gentleman's time has
expired. I am going to, after I recognize the next member, I am
going to ask Representative Levin to Chair the meeting briefly
as I have to step away to another briefing. But I shall be back
shortly, but Representative Levin will Chair. I now recognize
Representative Greg Steube of Florida for 5 minutes.
Mr. Steube. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
My questions are for Ambassador White. Haiti's poorest
border with the Dominican Republic is extremely vulnerable to
illicit trade. Haiti's maritime borders also remain virtually
unregulated which contributes to economic insecurity. How can
the Haitian Government increase customs control at its borders?
Ms. White. Oh, boy. And a good question. Very good
question. We worked with that so much when I was there and we
were making progress. A lot of it consulting with people that
had set up custom border patrols in the United States, and we
were making some real progress, but then the funding ran out
and I think it all just went backward.
But, you know, you can set up honest custom control across
along the Haitian border if you have enough money to do it and
that is the big problem. And, you know, especially U.S. Custom
Patrol people were incredibly knowledgeable, incredibly
generous with their time in helping us and advising us, and I
think that that, you know, if you can get that back on track
again it would be fabulous. And neither.
Mr. Steube. Well, could you describe how serious this
problem is to Haiti's future development prospects?
Ms. White. You know, I have not been to Haiti in 3 years. I
do not know what is going on right now. I can certainly tell
you what was going on when I was there, but the migration of
workers and the migration of goods, and, you know, even though
there was a major scale-up of migration called disease, is
something all that really needs to be looked at. At least in my
tenure it was an enormous problem.
Mr. Steube. So what could the Biden Administration do to
help buildup border security there?
Ms. White. Yes, I think we should go, I mean what we would
do, you know, is really quite a good strategy in like I think
we could go back to it very easily, and that is building up
structures and training. And, you know, not only was it great
because it was going to increase border security, but it also
gave an opportunity for wonderful employment opportunity.
Mr. Steube. Adam Hoffner of the U.S. Border Patrol Miami
Sector stated, ``We continuously warn migrants about the
dangers associated with traveling by sea. Smuggling
organizations are not concerned with the safety of the people
there smuggling, rather they continue to put the lives of
migrants at risk.'' What could the Biden Administration do to
address this issue?
Ms. White. Well, you know, it all goes back about the core
reasons that, you know, why are people leaving Haiti to start
with? And, you know, we went through a period when I was
Ambassador that migration to the United States was almost zero.
It was very seldom. And, you know, that is when we were having
a lot of development dollars and we were pumping a lot of money
into the economy and lots of jobs were opening up and stuff
there and we were paying people to, you know, remove the rubble
and make new roads.
And so if Haitians, you know, the whole answer is that
Haitians do not want to migrate.
Mr. Steube. OK. If there are any Republicans, I am happy to
yield time if they want more time. If not, I will yield back to
the Chair.
Mr. Levin [presiding]. Thank you, Representative Steube.
The gentleman yields back. I now recognize the gentlewoman from
Pennsylvania, Representative Wild, for 5 minutes.
Ms. Wild. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I appreciate it. I would
like to address my first question to Ambassador White. And, you
know, we have been hearing a lot of frustration about the
current state of things and money that continues to flow to
Haiti and so forth, but I want to take a little bit of a
historical tour with you.
In 1825, France used the threat of military force to force
Haiti to make massive financial payments with interest as a
price for their independence, including the value of enslaved
people freed. In today's dollars, the amount Haiti was forced
to pay for its freedom exceeded 20 billion dollars. So my
questions to you are these, and I will tell you my questions
and then you can answer them in whatever fashion wish.
I would like to know what the impact of these payments was
on Haiti's development and whether you believe that is
difficult to accurately assess Haiti's current structural
challenges without factoring in that history. And I would also
like you to address the fact that in 2015, former French
President Hollande acknowledged a moral debt toward Haiti, but
I believe the debt is very tangible, and I am wondering what
you think France's responsibility is here of whether we and
other Members of the international community should play a role
in urging the French Government to seriously address this
issue.
That is for Ambassador White. Is she with us?
Mr. Levin. Ambassador White, could you hear the question?
She is looking like she does not hear you.
Ms. White [continuing]. Never got over the fact that--yes.
Ms. Wild. I am sorry. I did not--okay, but we cannot hear
you. If you----
Ms. White. Can you hear me?
Ms. Wild. Yes, could you start----
Mr. Levin. Try again. Try again, Ambassador White. Go
ahead.
Ms. Wild. Okay.
Ms. White. Can you hear me now?
Ms. Wild. Yes.
Ms. White. Can you hear me? I am not on mute.
Ms. Wild. I can hear you.
Ms. White. I am not on mute.
Ms. Wild. Mr. Chair, can I reclaim a little bit of my time
in relation to that?
Mr. Levin. Yes, go ahead.
Ms. Wild. Ambassador, we can hear you. Go ahead, please.
She cannot hear me.
Ms. White. Let me stop the video.
Ms. Wild. Okay. Did you hear my question?
Ms. White. Now can you hear--yes, I was always shocked--
yes, I did.
Ms. Wild. Okay, go ahead.
Ms. White. Yes, so I was always shocked that Haiti was made
to pay those reparations. It was amazing to me. And, you know,
actually, interestingly enough, the French had played a role in
Haiti but they do not play as big of role that you always
thought they probably would.
During my time in West Africa, the French were the major
donors and the major players in West Africa and that is where
their major international interest in the Third World is today.
So I just do not enough about why France does not play a bigger
role in Haiti, to tell you the truth, but they have not for a
long time.
Ms. Wild. Well, in your opinion, do you believe that we
should be urging the French Government to address this issue?
Ms. White. Sure.
Ms. Wild. Okay. I am going to move if--I cannot see the
timer, Mr. Chair, but I assume I have another couple of
minutes.
Mr. Levin. Yes, another couple of minutes. Go ahead.
Ms. Wild. Thank you so much.
So I would like to direct this to Ms. Jozef. Our
immigration system has treated Asians, excuse me, Haitians
differently than immigrants of other nationalities in the
region, particularly Cuba and Venezuela, including by limiting
access to asylum. And we have not recognized, historically,
Haitians as facing political persecution.
Could you talk about how the U.S. response to Haitian
migration has shaped our own immigration rules and processes?
Ms. Jozef. Absolutely. Thank you so much, Congresswoman
Wild. The reality is we can look back as I mentioned
previously, the immigration prison system as we know, it
started, created for incarcerating Haitian refugees in the
1980's fleeing political unrest and political abuse and
persecution. And as we see today, the majority of the people
who have fled are directly connected with political unrest,
lack of security, and also the aftermath of the earthquake, the
storms, the cholera that we continue to see today.
So yes, as black immigrants we know very well how Haitian
migrants, Haitian asylum seekers have always been treated
unfairly. As we are looking today, we have Haitian migrants who
have been waiting at the border between a year and a half to 5
years. They have literally been waiting. The majority of the
children that are being deported and expelled at the U.S.
Mexican border right now are children who were born on the way,
whether in Brazil, in Chile, in Venezuela, and in Mexico. Yes,
black immigrants, particularly Haitian immigrants, have always
been treated unfairly comparing to other people.
So now you mention Venezuela. We applaud the demonstration,
you know, providing CPS for Venezuela as we are looking in the
middle of the unrest and chaos, political unrest and chaos in
Haiti, yet we do not see where this designation of CPS for
Haiti.
So we understand that anti-Black and racism is also
ingrained in every system and every part of who we are as a
people as a country, but that is why we are imploring and
demanding that we break away from the same way of treating
Haitian immigrants, understanding the value in what we as a
people contribute to the United States. When--[Audio
malfunction.]--to today elected officials and people fighting
on behalf of this Nation.
Ms. Wild. Thank you so much. I appreciate that. Thank you,
Mr. Chair. I yield back.
Mr. Levin. I now recognize for 5 minutes, the gentlewoman
from California, Congresswoman Kim.
Ms. Kim of California. I think I am unmuted now.
Mr. Levin. There you go, yes. Thank you.
Ms. Kim of California. Thank you.
Mr. Levin. Go ahead.
Ms. Kim of California. Thank you, Congressman Levin, and I
want to thank all of our witnesses for joining us today. You
know, for years, as it is has been noted, Haiti has been the
second largest recipient of the U.S. assistance in the Western
Hemisphere. We have provided over $172 million allocated in
Fiscal Year 2020. But despite these enormous amounts of
financial assistance from multiple U.S. agencies and
international aid organizations, Haiti remains the poorest and
least developed nation in the Western Hemisphere.
So question to you, Ms. Douyon, could you provide insight
as to which of our agencies is doing the most effective and
efficient job in spending U.S. taxpayer dollars in raising that
standard of living in Haiti and, additionally, which incentives
are in need of reform or refocusing?
Ms. Douyon. Thank you, Congresswoman Kim. I will let maybe
someone like Ambassador White comment on the work of the U.S.
Government entities, but my comment will be that several or
many people raised this concern about the amount of money sent
to Haiti in general development assistance and the lack of
result.
And I will say that it is not about the money, the amount
of money you spend to Haiti, it is about how it is spent, where
it spent, who will get the money to do what, and there is a
huge problem of the way we allocate that in Haiti. It does not
go to the real project. And this is also, it was not with the
U.S. Government money or United States taxpayer money, but it
happened with Venezuela, the people cried because they helped
us, they sent us a lot of money and that money was mismanaged,
and this was like the largest corruption scandal in the
country.
It will happen with any other kind of development
assistance fund until we send a clear signal that we are
fighting corruption. And this is exactly what we are doing now
in Haiti and until we do that, you can send money, the U.S. can
help send almost whatever the amount of money they want. The
same thing will happen.
Ms. Kim of California. Thank you so much. Given the limited
time, I would like to pivot to Ambassador White, if you have
any input on this and can I hear your thoughts on this?
Ms. White. Yes. I think, like I said before that, you know,
the tremendous amount of money that we are allocating to Haiti
now is going to humanitarian aid, food aid, basic health aid,
education, and I think that that is all critical. We do not
give money to the Haitian Government directly. We explored that
when I was there. We realized that there was just too much
corruption in the government and so we do not do that and we
should not.
Ms. Kim of California. All right. You know, I would like to
touch on the lack of infrastructure in Haiti impacting the
accessibility to basic services. You know, as you say, we can
pour as much money as we want into Haiti but, you know, and try
to help them improve medical treatment or nutrition, but if
Haitians are unable to reach food banks because of the poorly
constructed roads or access medical care due to poorly
constructed hospitals, this money will be concentrated in the
city centers and leave much of the country to on its own.
So how is the U.S. cooperating with Haiti on the
infrastructure projects to ensure that aid reaches the
populations that need it the most and which agencies are best
suited to accomplish this job?
Ambassador White, are you still on there?
Ms. White. Yes. Sorry, sorry. I did not know if you were
asking me or not. I do not know, currently, what is going on in
that direction in Haiti. I wish I did, but I do not. When I was
there, the PEPFAR money that both AID and CDC ran, you know,
was doing a tremendous amount of trying to get money to every
clinic across the Nation. And, you know, we had at least two or
three hundred clinics that we were working with, you know,
increasing training to the nurses, getting the right drugs to
these clinics, and I do not know if that is still ongoing or
not. I believe that it is.
But the problem is just as you say. Even if you have a
clinic and, you know, Village X, if people are having problems
accessing that village, then you still have a problem. But any
kind of infrastructure improvement of the roads is a
multibillion-dollar project and there is just not enough money
for that. Not U.S. money.
Ms. Kim of California. Let me put in one more question. I
know I want to touch on the human rights situation. Ms.
Auguste, as everyone here has testified that the human rights
situation on the ground in Haiti is dire and unstable. The rise
in violence against vulnerable populations through homicide,
kidnapping, and sexual violence is clearly----
Mr. Levin. Representative Kim, your time has expired. It is
really--do you have a very, very quick question for Ms.
Auguste----
Ms. Kim of California. Yes, yes.
Mr. Levin [continuing]. Like in 10 seconds?
Ms. Kim of California. May I ask that the gentleman from
Florida, Mr. Steube, can I ask how much time he had left to
yield?
Mr. Levin. His time is expired, Ms. Kim.
Ms. Kim of California. Okay, let me just--yes. May I finish
my question then?
Mr. Levin. I will come back to you if there is time at the
end, but we----
Ms. Kim of California. Okay.
Mr. Levin. There is still a lot of people who want to ask
questions.
Ms. Kim of California. All right, thank you.
Mr. Levin. If that is okay. Yes, thanks so much. All right,
and actually it is my turn now to ask my questions. I want to
thank Chairman Meeks and Ranking Member McCaul. I just cannot
tell you how pleased I am that the two of you called this
hearing on the full committee level. I know that Chairman Sires
of the Subcommittee agrees with me that a whole committee
hearing shows a level of concern that is truly warranted for
this crisis in Haiti.
I want to make clear before I begin, one thing for the
record. I am grateful to all the people who are testifying
before us, and I know witnesses could face intimidation or
threats because of your honest testimony. I have zero tolerance
for that and I request that any witness who experiences any
form or retaliation for your testimony, please alert the
committee immediately. Your willingness to appear and your
candor are essential to our work and your well-being is a
priority for us and I think I probably speak for every member
here on that.
Second, I want to emphasize that we have already made a
little history in this hearing today. We have real bipartisan
agreement here, which is often helpful and powerful in
effective congressional input to change the direction of U.S.
foreign policy. Our bipartisan panel of witnesses has made it
perfectly clear that both a constitutional referendum and
elections organized under de facto President Moise will not
work and will not be seen as legitimate by the Haitian people.
Ranking Member McCaul stated in his usual straightforward
way his agreement with this position, so this hearing is truly
providing the basis for a new way forward for U.S. policy. The
panel has already made clear that Haitian civil society broadly
considered Mr. Moise's term to have ended on February 7th,
2021, that he is widely considered illegitimate by the Haitian
people, that the CEP he created unilaterally is not legal or
legitimate, and that Haiti needs not simply elections but the
conditions that can lead to legitimate elections.
The United States needs to stop talking about squabbling
between politicians and listen to human rights, business,
labor, legal, and other civil society groups. These groups are
actually trying to come together to create a plan that would
work to restore the rule of law and a path to democracy. So
following Congresswoman Bass, let's talk about the way forward.
Ms. Douyon, can you briefly explain how Haiti has had
transitional governments before and what a broad cross-section
of Haitian groups believe should happen now?
Ms. Douyon. Thank you, Congressman Levin. We have had
transitional government before because even in the past,
elected leaders failed to organize election, timely election,
so we have to fill the void. And we had it in 2004, we had it
in 2015, and this time around is the same problem. Joyenel
Moise, despite the fact that he enjoyed a comfortable majority
in parliament, failed to organize election. So now we have to
replace the parliament, we have to elect local officials, and
we have to elect a new President because his term ended.
So a traditional government will have, we start democratic
order, will have improved overall security situation and
organized election, and----
Mr. Levin. Can I just ask? I do not know if I--if Ms.
Auguste is still here, but if so, I would like her to weigh in
on my last minute on whether she, you know, if she can add to
what you said or whether she agrees with you, to see if the
panel broadly agrees on this.
Can you hear me? Okay, go ahead.
Ms. Auguste. Yes. I hear you very well. Thank you very
much, Congressman Levin. I would like to start with the
threats, so especially those of us who are in the human rights
community, generally. However, the people who are living in the
impoverished communities who pull themselves together to stand
against the human rights violations and against this
unconstitutional government are threatened by them.
One thing that I would like to emphasize on is that us
within the Haitian civil society, we realize that it is the
international community that allows Joyenel Moise to continue
to remain at the palace. The impunity is so daring that on
February 13 they arrest Fednel Monchery, who has already been
cited in the La Saline massacre, they release him a few hours
thereafter. That means we cannot count on this government to go
by security and ensure that the population gets what they need.
Like Chairman Meeks has said before, the former President
Joyenel Moise have lost all credibility and is not able to
govern the country at the moment.
Mr. Levin. All right, I am afraid my time has expired and I
am going to hold myself to the same rules. So if we have time
later, Ms. Auguste, we will come back to you.
And now my understanding, there are not currently any of
our Republican colleagues who wish to ask questions and that
means I get to turn it over to my esteemed colleague from
Pennsylvania, Representative Houlahan, for 5 minutes.
Ms. Houlahan. Thank you, Representative Levin, and I
appreciate the opportunity to ask questions.
My first question is for Ms. Douyon. I was hoping to be
able to dive a little bit deeper into the role that women can
play in policy discussions in Haiti around governance and
around constitutional reform and how can we here in the U.S.
and in this body help to promote women's participation in the
government, in the Haitian Government and its civil society?
Ms. Douyon. Thank you, Congresswoman Houlahan. I do not
know if I pronounce it correctly.
Ms. Houlahan. You did.
Ms. Douyon. And as a feminist myself, I believe women have
a large role to play in Haiti politics and this is actually the
case already, but much is needed to be done. And I also need to
acknowledge that several feminist organizations were concerned
over the situation in Haiti, the current situation in Haiti.
Women need to be represented in the electoral council, but what
happened is that respected organizations refused to adhere to a
process that was then legal, and the government picked some
other women from organization that no one knows about to
consider that electoral council.
And what happen is that you have organization that are
legitimate and recognized that have been underground for many
years. They are not involved and they are left behind in the
process. And they kept saying it, and there is several press
note. And the civil society in their plan to have a
transitional government actually specified that there need to
be a quota of women because several times they violated this in
the law, we need to have at least 30 percent of women, but many
times they do not follow--they do not respect this quota and
they are advocating for it.
And we believe, and even for the new constitution that puts
us because it is not legal, those respected organizations are
not involved, but in the future when the society will agree to
make change to the Constitution maybe we will have provision
for increased women participation in Haiti politics.
Ms. Houlahan. Is there anything that you can think of that
we can be doing to be helpful in driving that process?
Ms. Douyon. Yes. First of all, maybe you can question why
does legitimate organization are not involved, and how you can
have--you can do anything with including women and those who
have been defending women's rights in the country for so many
years. And I think we can start here and later making sure that
whether it is in terms of the local system or anything that or
any decision that is being taken, if women are on the table,
because it is very important that we do not have the kind of
situation where only men are deciding what is the fate of the
country.
And just, and I have to note that there is something really
positive happening with the young activists, organizers, and
like mine has many women involved and we are actually ensuring
that we are equally qualified and we can have like leadership
position, we can assume our responsibility just like men, and
there is no reason we shouldn't have equal opportunities.
Ms. Houlahan. Agreed. And I am not sure, Representative
Levin, how much time more time that I have.
Mr. Levin. A minute-twenty.
Ms. Houlahan. All right, great. With my minute-twenty, I
would like to direct my last question to Ms. Auguste. My
question is how can we best be utilizing our relationships in
Latin America and the Caribbean to help support democracy in
Haiti? What can we be doing to be helpful there and what
international organizations are most useful? And thank you.
Ms. Auguste. Okay, thank you, Congresswoman Houlahan. I
think there is a lot of things that the U.S. can do to change
their relationships with Haiti. First and foremost, I think the
U.S. administration needs to listen to the Haitian civil
society who have a lot of recommendations and demand that they
can share with them that can be significant to the chance that
we are seeking.
With your permission, I would like to quickly address the
issue of women's participation within the elections system.
Ms. Houlahan. Representative Levin, I do not know if I have
the time for that, but perhaps we could go back to that?
Mr. Levin. No, you have a bit of time left. It is a little
different when there is translation because they stop the clock
for the translation.
Ms. Houlahan. Oh, Okay. Okay.
Mr. Levin. So do not worry. I will stop you. Go ahead.
Ms. Auguste. Okay, thank you. One thing that I would like
to add is that the current insecurity that we have will not
allow women to participate in this election neither as
candidate or as voters. At the same time, the Haitian political
parties have to come and put forward the mechanisms to allow
women to be able to participate fully in the electoral process.
Mr. Levin. And with that--oops. With that, I think we have
to move on. I am sorry. Again, if we have more time, we will
come back. It is such a rich conversation. And I will just
point out that all four of our panelists and our translator are
women and they are doing an outstanding job in this hearing,
whatever that, you know, whatever that means.
Ms. Houlahan. I yield back. Thank you.
Mr. Levin. And, Mr. Fitzpatrick, if you have questions, you
are up next, or if you want to wait because I know you just
popped on.
Mr. Fitzpatrick. Thank you, Mr. Levin. If Representative
Young Kim is still on, I am happy to yield my time to her. I
know she was looking for extra time.
Mr. Levin. Yes, she was. I do not know if she is or not. I
do not see her name. We will wait a minute.
All right, well, you know, we can come back to that as
well. So let me recognize the gentlewoman from Nevada,
Representative Titus, for 5 minutes.
Ms. Titus. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. It has been
indeed an interesting conversation. And I would like to shift a
little to maybe Ms. Jozef and ask her about the refugee
situation.
One of President Biden's first actions in office was to
sign an executive order rescinding some of the Trump
administration's immigration enforcement policies and he also
directed Homeland Security to reexamine our own policies and
priorities. DHS instituted a hundred-day pause on deportation
with limited exceptions during this review process, but a legal
challenge, unfortunately, lifted that pause so deportations are
continuing.
I just wonder if the Haitian Government is doing anything
to ensure the safety of returning individuals, many of whom
left saying they feared for their lives because of the gang
violence throughout the country.
Ms. Jozef. Thank you so much, Representative Titus. The
reality is even when President Biden's moratorium did not cover
the expulsion of migrants under Title 42, which is the CDC
Title, and we are asking for that Title to be rescinded so that
we can provide protection for the most vulnerable people.
I also would like to mention that it is extremely
concerning for the Haitian President, for the Haitian
Government to be agreeing to receive a people who have
literally fled due to violence, due to political unrest, and
due to persecution. As I mentioned during my first opening, one
of the women who was kidnapped and raped and fled was returned
to Haiti and is currently in hiding unable to leave her house
because of fear that what will happen to her.
So with all of that being said, what is happening with the
migration, what is happening at the border with the
deportation, with expulsion, we are asking for all of that to
stop because it is unbelievable. And we believe that it is
borderline criminal for the Haitian Government to be receiving
people in these conditions at the present moment.
And would also like to highlight that even people who were
not born in Haiti have been deported to Haiti. We are demanding
accountability on both sides, from the U.S. side and our
Haitian side, understanding it is a sending and receiving
relationship and we are asking for that to stop immediate.
Ms. Titus. So are NGO's involved in that whole process with
you either through the courts in legal cases or advocating for
some of these people who have returned?
Ms. Jozef. We are advocating. However, when people are
returned to Haiti, it is extremely impossible for them to get
any type of relief when they are returned, released with
nothing, and they have to find a way to fend for themselves, to
go into hiding, to try to find another way so that they can
probably even leave the country again. There is absolutely no
relief, no protection for people who are being returned to
Haiti at this moment.
Ms. Titus. Sounds like that is something that we may be
able to look into to provide some help at our end.
Ms. Jozef. We definitely have, not just had looked, but we
must provide help now and we must provide, you know, a way for
people to legally, safely get protection in asking asylum. We
must redesignate a CPS for Haiti to cover those who are here
and really, really to make sure that we have a strong Haitian
American community.
Ms. Titus. Thank you very much. Just a little bit of time
left, I would like to ask about education in Haiti. We have a
figure that one of every two Haitians age 15 and over is
illiterate, yet we know education is the way to get out of
poverty to create a better future. Is there anything that we
can do to help, or to help NGO's or help any of you, help with
the expanding education opportunities?
Anybody?
Ms. Auguste. Thank you very much, Congresswoman Titus.
Today, education is a problem just like all the other issues
that we are dealing with. The current educational system we
have does not provide a good system for everybody to learn idea
quickly, and it is also not a system that is fair to able to
address everyone's problems regarding so whatever discrepancies
or challenges that they may have.
We also have a system that is corrupted because there was
the national educational funds that was created by the Martelly
government. Money is taken from the Haitian diaspora on a
regular basis. No report has been given on that money and it
has not been utilized to assist the Haitian children to make
sure attending school.
Mr. Levin. And again, I need to step in and say the
gentlewoman's time has expired. But again, that answer is on
such an important question. I understand----
Ms. Wild. Thank you, Chairman.
Mr. Levin. Thanks, Representative Titus. I understand that
even school children now are being at risk of kidnappings which
is just incredible.
Now let me recognize my wonderful colleague from the state
of Minnesota for 5 minutes, Representative Omar, for her
questions.
Ms. Omar. Thank you so much for calling this important
meeting, Chairman. I am especially grateful that we have the
opportunity to hear directly from folks who are being impacted
by our policies. I wanted to start with--direct my question to
Ms. Auguste.
The last President changed U.S. policy to make it easier
for American gun manufacturers to export guns to other
countries including Haiti. Many of us are pushing for our new
President to reverse this. In Haiti, how do gangs and organized
crime get their guns, and do guns--do these guns used to commit
violence in Haiti mostly come from the United States?
Ms. Auguste. Thank you very much, Congresswoman Omar. I
will start by answering your question. Yes, there are a lot of
weapons that arrive on the Haitian territory that comes from
the U.S. They come from our different various ports. There are
also other weapons that enter the country through our borders
because both our ports at the borders are just open.
There was a resolution that was taken that Haiti should not
be entering weapons in the country. Despite the fact that there
is an arms embargo on Haiti, to this day no authorities in the
Haitian Government can tell us where these weapons are coming
from and who is entering them in the country. It is the gangs
who said that they are better armed than the Haitian National
Police, and that is why we are saying that the Haitian National
Police is currently weakened and politicized.
Ms. Omar. Thank you for your answer.
And to Ms. Douyon, should the United States be supporting
elections in Haiti this year regardless of the context and, in
your opinion, what are the changes that election in Haiti this
year, what are the chances that the elections this year would
be free, fair, and legitimate?
Ms. Douyon. Thank you, Congresswoman Omar. If the United
States want to waste money and support the new political
crisis, yes, they can invest in election in Haiti this year.
Otherwise, the best alternative will be to listen to civil
society who could indicate when it is OK to hold election.
Because with gangs member we have--our President does is acting
like a strongman in clear violations of human rights and many
areas are under gang control, there isn't any possibility that
we could have fair and inclusive elections. Who can campaign
without gang support, and we do not want the kind of officials
that have gang support to be elected or--but if we call
elections now, those people are the one who have real advantage
by the current insecurity and climate of fear that is going on
in Haiti.
And also we need to audit the electoral system and we have
an illegal electoral council. All those problems need to be
solved if we want to have election that could lead us to the
chance that the Haitian people deserve.
Ms. Omar. I really appreciate your answer.
And to Ms. Jozef, I know that you have just addressed this
question in regards to deportations. I am wondering if you can
maybe expand on how these deportations are impacting the
situation on the ground in Haiti especially in the context of
the COVID pandemic.
Ms. Jozef. Thank you so much, Congresswoman Omar. Thank you
so much for being here. The reality is we started asking to
stop deportations and expulsions to Haiti under Title 42 back
in March when we realized that was going to be a major
catastrophe for Haiti with a lack of infrastructure for medical
care. And I also want to highlight that the numbers that are
being seen or reported are not actual numbers. So in Haiti,
there is no way for people to literally know how many people
have been affected and died from COVID, for many different
reasons.
However, we also understand that in May 2020, we had words
that at least three of those people who were deported to Haiti,
upon arriving in Haiti tested positive for COVID-19. And I
personally saw a spike in COVID-19 as relation to this flight.
We also understand that a lot of people that were deported to
Guatemala also were tested positive for COVID-19 upon arrival
in their home country.
So this is a major concern as we understand transfers
between detention centers and prison and flight carries over
the grave, grave injustice that can be seen when it comes to
medical assistance and medical care. So that is why we are
asking for the stopping of those expulsion and those
deportation in the spirit of good neighbor or in the spirit of
protecting in health care.
Ms. Omar. Thank you all for your wonderful insights. Thank
you, Chairman. I yield back.
Mr. Levin. Thank you. The gentlewoman yields back. Now to
the first of our fabulous freshwomen, the gentlewoman from
California, Representative Jacobs.
Ms. Jacobs. Well, thank you, Mr. Chair. And thank you to
all of our witnesses for being here. This has been incredibly
interesting and I share my colleagues' concerns about the
current situation. But I wanted to ask Ms. Douyon a question.
You know, I too have been part of conversations around
Haiti for many years where we have been having similar
conversations over and over again, but I noticed that in your
opening you said that you think this is not the same moment as
other crises and that we have an opportunity to fundamentally
change things. And I was wondering if you could elaborate on
why you think that is the case and what specifically it would
take so that this really would fundamentally change things and
we would not continue this cycle.
Ms. Douyon. Thank you, Congresswoman Jacobs. I think we
could only go back to maybe the time when we were fighting
dictatorship to find the same spirit that is going on in Haiti
now that called for change, that the involvement of so many
different kind of people. For example, speaking on behalf of
the collective of angry citizens who have never done politics
before, we were never involved so actively in activities then.
But back in 2018, we have noticed that something needed to
be done, like we needed to be involved to save what is left to
be saved of Haiti, and this is why we are doing it and we have
been doing it constantly since 2018. And this is because of
people like us in Nou Pap Domi, the people challenging, those
people who fought dictatorship and are still fighting the ways
of dictatorship, now that I believe that something different is
happening.
We are tired, like there is a--no one want to keep going
with the same cycle and it is obvious that the system that we
are fighting can no longer renew itself. For like 4 years in
power, the President, despite the fact that he has a
comfortable majority, he has not been able to achieve anything.
Like he has not been able to satisfy any need from the
population and he does not even have like support as to go on
the street to say, we are with him, we are supporting him.
Like everyone realized like the majority of people, there
is a broad consensus that we need to change something if we
want to develop this country. And I believe that this new era
can start now, and this is why we are asking for the U.S.
Government to recognize that the civil society is taking the
lead, to recognize that this time around is different, and they
need to be on the side of change.
Ms. Jacobs. Thank you. Thank you so much.
And then I would like to ask if Ambassador White is still
on, what she thinks the United States can learn from its
previous interventions and in terms of how we should approach
things differently. And, you know, I know you talked about
conditioning aid and some other things, but I guess what I am
just trying to make sure is that we do not like do the same ten
things we have done in every think-tank report we have had
since the earthquake, and then have this same hearing again in
3 years from now when it does not work.
Ms. White. Thank you. Yes, I do think we have a unique
opportunity right now to get tough. And, you know, when I look
back even when the, you know, some of the final months of when
I was in Haiti, because we were going through the same, you
know, the powers that there was no parliament. The CEP was
first made up of a cast of characters that weren't acceptable,
but we got it right, finally. But I think we have to hold their
feet to the fire and we have to be tough and we have to be
outspoken and I think the Biden Administration is ready to do
that. I hope so.
But let me just mention one other thing that I, during this
hearing, could not tell if it was a Republican or a Democrat
asking the questions. And I, normally, I am really good at
that. So congratulations to you, because I really do feel that
this is a bipartisan committee hearing and thank you for that.
Ms. Jacobs. Well, thank you. And with that, Mr. Chair, I
yield back.
Mr. Levin. And I believe Mr. Meeks is back to take the
gavel back. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Meeks. Thank you, Mr. Levin. I now recognize the Vice
Chair of the Subcommittee of the Middle East, North Africa, and
Global Counterterrorism, Representative Kathy Manning of North
Carolina, for 5 minutes.
Ms. Manning. Thank you, Chairman Meeks. I want to thank all
of the witnesses for their testimony today and I am delighted
that we have had this hearing so early in this session of
Congress. The situation that was described by all the witnesses
was, is heartbreaking and discouraging.
And we have talked at length about the political situation,
Ambassador White, you had some very specific suggestions of
things that could be done to address the political situation
and I am wondering if you have similarly specific
recommendations for steps the U.S. could take to improve the
economic situation in Haiti.
Ms. White. Yes, I do. I think, overall, USAID, it has
always been my contention that we should spend more money on
getting people jobs because countries do not move forward
without jobs. But in order to get people into jobs, we need to
do some--pay attention to at least giving people skills that
they can use to rebuild the country.
And when I was head of USAID in Liberia, we had this
fabulous program that linked literacy skills with basic skills
in electricity, in brickmaking and building, with car
mechanics, et cetera, et cetera, so that we could--we taught
people literacy at the same time we were training them in basic
skills with unrelated skills and
[inaudible] Congress has been over and over very reluctant
to give money to job training skills, and I think that is a
mistake.
Ms. Manning. Would any of the other witnesses like to
comment on that? I am looking for specific ways the U.S. can
help improve the economic situation in Haiti.
Ms. Douyon. Representative Manning, if you allow me to add
a few points, if we want to improve the economic situation in
Haiti, there is a need to attract investment, but we cannot
attract investment if the current President is still
undermining rule of law and if the other law security situation
is still as whatever it is.
This is why so many people do not come to invest in Haiti
and we cannot have like people in the diaspora coming back home
to improve, to work, to invest, and this is one--we cannot
disassociate the economic situation from the political and
social situation and which will improve and solve this
political crisis.
If we want to attract investment, restore peace so that
economic activists can thrive, because what is happening now
with people who like fearing to even leave their house, there
is great concern that we could see any improvement anytime
soon.
Ms. Manning. Thank you. Yes?
Ms. Jozef. I would like to briefly add that again we need,
as my fierce justice warrior Emmanuela mentioned, we need to
look at the root causes of where we are right now and really,
you know, work with the people of Haiti to create the
infrastructure that is needed in order for us to move forward,
including education, including access to health care, including
rebuilding a culture, which open, which Haiti has always
flourished.
Sending rice to Haiti, sending all those things, that all
literally diminished the farming industry. We need to look into
building sustainable structural in Haiti from education to
access to health care, to farming, to our culture so that we as
the Haitian people can reclaim their place and really create a
system where people will be able to stay at home safe and
others can come in and then investing into the community as
well.
Ms. Manning. Thank you.
And, Ms. Ducena, would you like to comment on that as well?
Ms. Auguste. Yes. Thank you so much, Congresswoman Manning.
The economic situation has currently ties to the social
political crisis that we are dealing with.
If you do not have political ability, you cannot have
economic stability just like my colleague Jozef and Douyon have
already explained. The first step we need to take in terms of
changing the economic situations in Haiti is to once
acknowledge Article 134-2 from the Constitution. It had
demanded for former President Joyenel Moise as ended on
February 7th, 2021, then the country can work toward building a
greater nation.
Mr. Meeks. Thank you.
Ms. Manning. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Meeks. Thank you. The gentlelady's time has expired. I
now recognize the Vice Chair of the Subcommittee on Western
Hemisphere, Civilian Security, Migration, and International
Economic Policy, Representative Juan Vargas from California,
for 5 minutes.
Mr. Vargas. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and I hope you can
hear me. Mr. Chairman, I want to thank you very much for this
hearing. Being toward the end here, I have had the opportunity
to listen to not only our presenters but also all the questions
from our colleagues. And I have to tell you, I do not know what
we should do, I really do not.
But I know that what we should not do, we should not deport
Haitians back to Haiti. That is what we should not do. We
should not do that. And why should not we do that? From all the
testimony that we heard here people are afraid to go buy
groceries. People are afraid to get out money to get on the
bus. People are afraid to make even small buys of anything
because the gangs figure out they have money and they will get
kidnapped to take that money away. They have closed some of the
schools not so much even for the fear of COVID-19, but because
children and their parents get kidnapped.
We should not deport people back into that situation. That
is outrageous. The administration should allow them to stay and
until the situation changes in Haiti. Now I have to say also,
in my own opinion, I could be wrong, but I think it is also
discrimination and I think it is discrimination because
Haitians are black. I think that that is a reality. I think
that there is a terrible discrimination going on here that
shouldn't happen.
So anyway, I think we should urge the administration to
quit deporting people back to Haiti. I mean does anyone agree
with me at all? I mean isn't--how about Ms. Douyon? Do you
agree that we should not deport people back to Haiti?
Ms. Douyon. I agree. I agree that even though the
conditions in Haiti right now it is not fair to deport people
back to Haiti, and if we really want to avoid dealing with this
kind of situation like having people migrating illegally to the
United States we need to support efforts to restore peace in
Haiti and make Haiti livable for the people.
Mr. Vargas. And I agree with that. I mean I think we need
to do all we can to help Haiti. I am completely in favor of
that. But I just do not understand why we are deporting
Haitians back to Haiti in these conditions. That does not make
any sense to me. That does not make any sense. And also we have
been talking about how to have fair and free elections that,
you know, we cannot trust the situation as it is right now to
have free and fair elections. I agree with that.
I think that will take some time to sort out, but in the
meantime, why are we deporting people? I mean that does not
make any sense to me and that is something I think that we
should put pressure on this administration. This administration
has the opportunity to do that. I mean they do it for Cubans.
They do it for Venezuelans, for others. Why not for Haitians?
Ms. Jozef. Congressman Vargas, thank you so much for making
those points.
Mr. Vargas. Yes.
Ms. Jozef. The reality is, we absolutely believe that it is
anti-black racism play a big part of why people are being
deported to Haiti and also the fact that we continue to see
some type of support to the current administration in Haiti.
And as I mentioned before, it is borderline criminal for both,
you know, the U.S. sending people in for Haiti to be receiving
people.
We are asking as you have said, to provide a safe and
welcoming, you know, a plan for those people who have left, who
have ran, and have literally been at the border between a year
and a half to 5 years. It is unconscionable to see the
condition that black people continues to be treated, not only
in the United States but around the world.
And we see a direct relation between how they are deporting
people to Haiti under the rules of Title 42, which literally
allow people to be tested negative before being deported based
on what ICE is saying. It is absolutely no reason for the
United States after President Biden promised the Haitian
American community that he was going to lead the way, we cannot
continue to repeat those just inhumane treatment of Haitians.
It is unacceptable.
Mr. Vargas. Amen. And I would add this too. I live on the
border here in San Diego. The discrimination that goes on also
in Mexico when Haitians arrive here also is terrible, the
discrimination that they face in Mexico when they have every
right to present themselves at the border and say, I am here
for asylum, and apply for asylum.
Anyway, again I--my time is up. But I hope we can do
something about this, Mr. Chairman. Thank you. I yield back.
Mr. Meeks. Thank you. The gentleman's time has expired. Our
last member to talk is the distinguished Chair of the Financial
Services Committee, who has been an advocate for Haiti from the
time that I have known her and that is why she spent the time
here today. The honorable Maxine Waters, you are now recognized
for 5 minutes.
Ms. Waters. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I am so
pleased for the leadership that you are providing on this
issue. I am a friend of Haiti and I have been for years and I
have been through some of the better times, but all of the
worst times. I know Andy Apaid and I know he is down there
exploiting the people, still.
I helped to get Guy Philippe put in jail and Toto Constant
that they are sent back here to the United States, who we
should have kept here. He was the death squad leader under
Sadras when that coup d'etat took place. I have been with
Aristide. I went, rented a plane alone with Randall Robinson.
Remember when we had TransAfrica, Mr. Chairman, and we went to
the jet and we went up and we got Aristide and I brought him
back from the African republic that he was--Central Africa
Republic that he had been banished to.
Now knowing all of this, I also understand Haiti, and I
understand the mulatto's elite and I understand their
relationship to some of the worst people in government, and
that is who Moise and all of them work with because they are
all about the money, exploiting Haiti, and basically about the
fraud and about the corruption. I get all of that.
But I want you to know that, you know, people have been
killed. The last time I was there it was April 2019, and I met
with the victims of La Saline, the massacre that took place,
and they told me about everything that happened November 2018.
And this was all because they were part of Lavalas. And so, you
know, that is the old party of President Aristide that was so
prominent in trying to get democracy in Haiti.
Someone asked today about what was going to be done or what
had ever been done about the fact that the French basically
piled all of this debt on Haiti and what was going to be done
to work in getting that back. Well, that is one of the reasons
Aristide was ousted was because he was talking about stuff like
that.
But I want to tell you that there have been a lot of
reports of similar massacres such as the one that was held in
La Saline. I met with people whose houses had been burned down.
They had no place to go. All they had was the clothing on their
back. And so whether we are talking about Bel Air or we are
talking about Cite Soleil, all of them are under absolute, you
know, violence that has been perpetrated on them by this
President and his police force.
In May of last year, the death squad that was headed by
Jimmy Cherizier, but everybody knows him as Barbeque, he is
running wild down there. He is killing people. He is carrying
out multiple attacks on civilians all through the Port-au-
Prince neighborhoods of Tokyo, Delmas, Pont-Rouge, burning
houses and killing people and doing these violent attacks.
Members of the Haitian National Police allied with Barbeque
reportedly stood by and did nothing. No one has been
accountable for these killings either, so there is a lack of
accountability.
Now I know the question has been raised, what can we do?
Mr. Chairman, I think you are in a great position to help
provide some leadership. I do not know exactly how it should
take place, but I think there is some recommendations that may
make good sense. No. 1, the State Department is very key. I
realize Haiti is a sovereign nation. We cannot just go in there
and tell them what to do and what not to do, what have you, but
we do support Haiti and we do have a State Department there and
so they have got be involved in some way.
The other thing is this, France and Canada, I have seen
them involved when they thought it was in their best interest
to be involved, but I think if Canada and France, the State
Department, the U.S. Government led by you, and the civil
society of Haiti get together and form some kind of a task
force of some kind, you have got to get President Moise to stop
this April referendum. This cannot happen.
This will destroy any efforts to have a Constitution, a
real--it will undermine the Constitution of Haiti. I mean this
has got to be stopped. And if everybody can get together and
maybe some people from the diaspora along with civil society
and with the State Department, the United Nations, and you, and
others, maybe we can stop this referendum. It has got to stop.
Now when you talk about some of the people in civil
society, Dr. Marie Antoinette Gautier, Marie Louise Gautier,
these people are all in jail. They picked them up in the middle
of the night and took them to jail. Louis Buteau and, of
course, the court, the Supreme Court Justice Dabresil, he was
arrested also, but they let him go on his recognizance. But the
rest of them are still in jail and they are talking about they
are going to stay there for 90 days until they can decide what
to do with them.
But in response, and I do not know, but I worked with one
of the past Prime Ministers, Ceant. Ceant, I guess, was up for
a while and somehow he got kicked out by Moise. I do not know
what he is doing. But between those of you who are here today,
some of the names that I am mentioning and with some of the
people that you trust in civil society, get together and
everybody says to Moise, you will not have this referendum, it
will not take place, I think then there can be a start to deal
with how to follow the Constitution, how to get a legitimate
CEP, and how to go forward with elections.
The Ambassador is correct. The Ambassador is right, you
cannot have it in this atmosphere. There is no way it can take
place. And all of the international interest should contribute
the resources that are necessary at the right time, stopping
this referendum and making him step aside. You know, he is the
President, but if all, everybody comes together to say you
cannot do this, that is not kicking him out as President, but
the people will do that when you get the elections going and
you have him step aside and stop the referendum.
And so I just wanted to add that I love Haiti. I will visit
Haiti with my friends and I know that this is not political,
but I am Lavalas. That is it. That is what I have worked with.
I love President Aristide. He is building a university there
that is educating doctors and lawyers and it is fabulous. When
I was there, there was over five or six hundred graduates that
were coming from that university.
We can do this, but we have got to come together with all
of the interest. We have got to stop him in his tracks. We have
got the international community to come together and supply the
dollars and move with an election in an atmosphere where people
will not be killed.
And with that, I know that I have taken up enough time, I
would like to submit for the record, a letter that I sent to
U.S. Ambassador Michele Sison that was signed by 14 of us and
an op-ed that I wrote in the Miami Herald entitled ``Haiti's
President Joyenel Moise's shameful assault on democracy.'' And
I would just like to say that--include CARICOM in that group of
people who will get together, so that was three letters that I
had sent.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I am going to follow your lead. I
am going to do what I know you can--I support you in what I
know you can do, and I think you have to take the leadership in
having to bring this group of people together. As I said, civil
society will be central to that. But all of these others who
play a role, I think we can force him to step aside while we
get together to plan an election.
Thank you so much. I yield back the balance of my time.
Mr. Meeks. Thank you. The gentlelady's time has expired.
All questions have now been had and all questions are now
concluded. I now call upon Ranking Member McCaul, if you have
any comments before we close.
In closing, let me do this. I do not think Ranking Member
McCaul is with us. I want to thank all of our witnesses today.
No. 1, your insight has been invaluable. I want to thank all of
the Members of this committee who have been engaged on this
critical situation in Haiti. There is clearly a lot of work to
be done and we are going to need to stay focused on Haiti, and
I want all that have been witnessing and listening to this
hearing today to note that this committee is going to stay
focused.
This is not just a one hearing and off and then we are not
going to continue to pay attention to what is going on. I too,
as I said in my opening statement, am very concerned about
moving forward with a referendum and what the current make up
of is the CEP, of the CEP, because we have to have free and
fair elections that involves everyone. Civil society must be a
part of this.
The Haitian people must have confidence in an election. You
cannot have an election just for election's sake because we
would still be in the same place. There has got to be
integrity. So this committee will work with the State
Department and the administration bringing folks together so
that we will know that there will be a change of what is going
on.
So the Haitian people face a big deal and it is a priority
of mine that we work to elevate the voices of civil society who
want democracy and the rule of law. And I thank each and every
one of you for being with us today and I now adjourn this
hearing.
[Whereupon, at 1:11 p.m., the committee was adjourned.]
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