[Senate Hearing 117-80]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
S. Hrg. 117-80
OPEN HEARING: NOMINATION OF
WILLIAM J. BURNS TO BE DIRECTOR OF THE
CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY
=======================================================================
HEARING
BEFORE THE
SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE
OF THE
UNITED STATES SENATE
ONE HUNDRED SEVENTEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
__________
WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 24, 2021
__________
Printed for the use of the Select Committee on Intelligence
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Available via the World Wide Web: http://www.govinfo.gov
________
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
45-486 WASHINGTON : 2021
SELECT COMMITTEE ON INTELLIGENCE
[Established by S. Res. 400, 94th Cong., 2d Sess.]
MARK R. WARNER, Virginia, Chairman
MARCO RUBIO, Florida, Vice Chairman
DIANNE FEINSTEIN, California RICHARD BURR, North Carolina
RON WYDEN, Oregon JAMES E. RISCH, Idaho
MARTIN HEINRICH, New Mexico SUSAN COLLINS, Maine
ANGUS KING, Maine ROY BLUNT, Missouri
MICHAEL F. BENNET, Colorado TOM COTTON, Arkansas
BOB CASEY, Pennsylvania JOHN CORNYN, Texas
KIRSTEN E. GILLIBRAND, New York BEN SASSE, Nebraska
CHUCK SCHUMER, New York, Ex Officio
MITCH McCONNELL, Kentucky, Ex Officio
JACK REED, Rhode Island, Ex Officio
JAMES INHOFE, Oklahoma, Ex Officio
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Michael Casey, Staff Director
Chris Joyner, Minority Staff Director
Kelsey Stroud Bailey, Chief Clerk
C O N T E N T S
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FEBRUARY 24, 2021
OPENING STATEMENTS
Page
Warner, Hon. Mark R., a U.S. Senator from Virginia............... 1
Rubio, Hon. Marco, a U.S. Senator from Florida................... 3
WITNESSES *
Baker, William, Former Secretary of State........................ 5
Panetta, Leon, Former Director of the Central Intelligence
Agency; Former Secretary of Defense............................ 7
Burns, William J., Nominee to be Director of the Central
Intelligence Agency............................................ 9
Prepared statement........................................... 13
SUPPLEMENTAL MATERIAL
Questionnaire for Completion by Presidential Nominees............ 44
Additional Pre-Hearing Questions................................. 62
Post-Hearing Questions for the Record............................ 89
* Mr. Baker and Mr. Panetta appeared via WebEx.
OPEN HEARING: NOMINATION OF
WILLIAM J. BURNS TO BE DIRECTOR OF THE
CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY
----------
WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 24, 2021
U.S. Senate,
Select Committee on Intelligence,
Washington, DC.
The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:04 a.m., in Room
SR-301, Russell Senate Office Building, Hon. Mark R. Warner
(Chairman of the Committee) presiding........................
Present: Senators Warner, Rubio, Feinstein, Wyden, Heinrich,
King (via WebEx), Bennet, Casey, Gillibrand (via WebEx), Reed
(Ex Officio), Burr, Risch, Collins, Blunt, Cotton, Cornyn,
and Sasse....................................................
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. MARK R. WARNER, A U.S. SENATOR FROM
VIRGINIA
Chairman Warner. Good morning, everyone. I would like to call
this hearing to order and recognize that I think this is the
first time in the history of the Intelligence Committee that
we have met in the Rules Committee's space. I think we
probably owe that to the distinguished former Chairman of the
Rules Committee, Senator Blunt. We would hope--I know you are
still the Ranking Member--but there's been a series of
requests from Intel Committee staff that we would like a ship
put in our SCIF as well......................................
Senator Blunt. Only the Rules Committee can have a ship. No
ship is available............................................
Chairman Warner. Can you say NGA West?.........................
Well, again I'd like to call this Committee to order, and again
we appreciate the cooperation of our colleagues on the Rules
Committee for letting us use this setting....................
Welcome, Ambassador Burns......................................
I know as we talked in the anteroom that your wife, Lisa, is
still hard at work in Geneva, and your daughters are watching
remotely, but I know they are here with you in spirit. I
would like to say congratulations on your nomination to be
the next Director of the CIA. After a long and distinguished
career in the Foreign Service, you deserve a well-earned
retirement, but the country still needs your talents.........
Ambassador Burns--Bill--thank you for once again being willing
to serve our country.........................................
Welcome also to our two distinguished guests who are joining us
remotely: former Secretary of State James Baker and former
Defense Secretary and CIA Director Leon Panetta. It's going
to be a privilege to hear from such eminent and bipartisan
public servants who will introduce Ambassador Burns. Again I
think is a great indication of his broad-based support.......
I understand that some of our Members may be joining us
remotely today as well, although I would like to acknowledge
Senator Casey. He appeared yesterday remotely but is here
today for his first in-person Intelligence Committee meeting.
We are very glad, Bob, to have you on the Committee..........
After the Vice Chairman and I give our opening statement,
Secretaries Baker and Panetta will say a few words, and
Ambassador Burns will then make his remarks. After this,
Members' questions will be for five minutes in order of
arrival......................................................
Ambassador Burns has provided us with written responses to
questions from the Committee, and today's hearing will
provide Members the opportunity to thoughtfully consider his
qualifications, to hear directly from the nominee, and for
Ambassador Burns to share his views on how he would lead the
women and men of the Central Intelligence Agency.............
Bill took the Foreign Service exam in November 1979, just a few
days after the seizure of our Embassy in Tehran and went on
to spend over three decades in the Foreign Service working
under both Democratic and Republican Presidents and ably
representing America around the world and at the highest
ranks of the State Department................................
He's been confirmed by the Senate five times--so going for six
today--and has served in both the number two and three
positions at the State Department: Deputy Secretary of State
and Undersecretary for Political Affairs. He's been our
Nation's Ambassador to Russia, to Jordan, and held a variety
of other senior national security roles. He holds the highest
rank in the State Department, that of Career Ambassador......
He is currently the president of the Carnegie Endowment for
International Peace, the oldest international think tank in
the United States. It is safe to say that Mr. Burns is
intimately familiar with the challenges and opportunities
that the United States faces around the globe, in many cases
with firsthand, on-the-ground experience and expertise. It is
the key qualities of expertise and sound judgment that,
perhaps above all others, will be most important in your role
as the Director of the CIA...................................
After four years during which the expertise and judgment of
America's civil servants were at times belittled and
discounted, the next Director must lead and inspire patriotic
professionals with humility and compassion, work
collaboratively with allied governments, and dispassionately
judge the actions of our adversaries.........................
CIA has in some ways been luckier than many other agencies.
Director Haspel, your predecessor, has led the CIA with
distinction under very difficult conditions, but I will be
looking to hear your views on how to inspire CIA's
intelligence professionals who often risk much, sacrifice
much, and sometimes up to and including their health and
lives in service of our country--and oftentimes without
recognition because of their requirement to do that in
secret.......................................................
I would like to hear how you plan to reinforce the credo no
matter the political pressure, no matter what, that CIA
officers will always do the right thing and speak truth to
power. And it is up to America's leaders, including you if
you are confirmed, to ensure that CIA's officers will not
face retribution or retaliation for speaking truth to power..
Beyond this basic task, our country faces a host of hazards
from China's drive to surpass the United States
technologically, to Russia's continued malign efforts in
cyberspace and disinformation, to the ongoing threats from
Iran and North Korea. Moreover, we are still in the midst of
a global pandemic--although with hope on the horizon--that
has taken the lives and livelihoods of hundreds of thousands
of Americans.................................................
These challenges are difficult, but with our traditionally
strong network of alliances, they are surmountable. We will
always rely on the CIA to be the Nation's eyes and ears, to
see over the horizon, and to give us warnings of threats and
challenges; not simply the ones we are facing now and in the
near term, but those in the future against which we must
begin to prepare today.......................................
Fulfilling this Committee's oversight obligations will require
transparency and responsiveness from your office. We may at
times ask difficult questions of you and your staff, and we
will expect honest, complete, and timely answers.............
At the same time, we will also want you to feel free to come to
the Committee with situations that warrant our partnership.
You can always count on this Committee to hear you out, give
you a fair shake, usually without the partisan tinge that has
unfortunately affected much of the rest of this Capitol......
We will have much more to discuss during today's questions, but
I would take this moment to assure you that should you be
confirmed, I look forward to working closely with you to
defend this Nation's security................................
Thank you again for your years of service to our country and
for stepping forward yet again and agreeing to serve. I look
forward to your testimony, and with that, I recognized the
distinguished Vice Chairman..................................
OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. MARCO RUBIO, A U.S. SENATOR FROM
FLORIDA
Vice Chairman Rubio. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And Ambassador
thank you for being with us today. I join the Chairman in
offering you and your family our congratulations, and/or
condolences as you may deem appropriate, for your nomination
at this important time in our Nation's history with these
challenges that we face......................................
The role that you have been nominated to fill is without
parallel in our government. If confirmed you will sit at the
nexus of the Agency's intelligence collection, analysis,
covert action, counterintelligence, and liaison relationships
with foreign intelligence services. Responsibility for any of
these missions would be an enormous undertaking for any
single one of them, let alone all of them. But the core
mission of the Agency is and remains the collection of
intelligence; the analysis of that intelligence to help
inform policymakers in the decisions they make; and then, of
course, operations as well...................................
And in that context, as Director, you will be responsible for
managing the CIA officers and employees of today, but also
for cultivating the workforce that we are going to need in
the years to come. So this, in my view, entails the
specialized skills and expertise needed to solve today's
unique intelligence challenges--our residents at the Agency--
but also it involves looking ahead a decade and thinking
about what the next critical skill set is going to be that
the officers will need. So I appreciate your insights as to
how you intend to achieve and accomplish that in your time
there........................................................
On the subject of workforce management, I want to mention that
the Committee, in particular Senator Collins and others, are
extremely interested and invested in ensuring that any
officers who have been injured in the field are afforded
access to the healthcare and the benefits that they need. And
this is particularly true when it comes to injuries that seem
to be consistent with symptoms of traumatic brain injury.....
So, if you are confirmed, I ask for your commitment to work
with the Committee so that we can find the appropriate
legislative or policy changes that ensure that the CIA's
commitment to the health and care of its officers is never
left in doubt; and that we are applying the necessary
resources to determine who was behind these things that have
impacted personnel from various agencies. And I want to be
clear: the Government of the United States needs to solve
this problem, needs to take care of our people; but needs to
also forcibly respond to whoever is responsible for hurting
Americans who are serving our country overseas...............
Today the United States faces an array of diverse national
security threats, an array of threats that is as challenging
as any in our history. The long-standing hostility from
Putin's regime in Russia and from Iran, North Korea; a global
pandemic moving into its second year; violent extremism;
state and non-state cyber actors that infiltrate and plunder
government and private sector computer networks with what
seems like impunity--and with new and creative methods.......
But no challenge that we face rivals the multifaceted threat
posed by the Chinese Communist Party. And so, even as we
continue to focus on the threats from counterterrorism and
from all these other nation-states and non-state actors, the
threat from the Chinese Communist Party is the most
significant facing our Nation, perhaps in its history. We
cannot, in my view, just be the orderly caretakers of our
Nation's decline.............................................
We must confront and, I hope, frustrate the ambitions of the
Chinese Communist Party, not just to upend norms, amend
boundaries, but to replace the United States. Their goal is
to replace the United States as the world's most powerful and
influential Nation. And achieving the goal of not letting
that happen is going to involve strengthening and expanding
alliances. I think it's also going to involve increased
capability and a stronger resolve to meet this challenge.
This is not the same system of crisis that past CIA leaders
were called upon to defend against. The threats today are
sudden, unpredictable, and they're happening with greater
frequency, often occurring in a gray space that embraces the
objectives of conflict without quite crossing the line into
outright warfare.............................................
What I think is plain to me and should be to all is that the
world has changed how it chooses to engage the United States.
What I'd like to hear from you today and, if confirmed, in
the weeks and months to come, is whether the CIA needs to
change how it engages the world..............................
I hope that over the course of our open and closed sessions
today you'll take the opportunity to explain not only your
understanding of the Agency's unique role in America and in
our government, but your vision for how that role needs to
evolve in the coming years so that the Agency is positioned
to defend against those emerging national security threats
that have not yet even materialized..........................
There is no disputing the speed and unrivaled capability that
the Agency can bring to bear in responding to a fully
realized national security threat. But what I'm driving at,
however, is an intelligence apparatus oriented toward the
technological advances and the global interconnectivity that
will be at the core of the next generation of threats to this
Nation's security: artificial intelligence, advanced data
analytics, biotechnology, disinformation, deep fakes, social
network manipulation. America's adversaries have used this
and all these things and will use these instruments. And
they'll use other new instruments of power and technologies,
some that haven't even been named yet, to close the
capability gap that has advantaged us as a Nation for
decades......................................................
The refashioning of the national security threat picture by
these technological and methodological advances calls into
question whether the traditional constructs of espionage need
to be refined, refashioned, and redesigned along with it.....
So, I'd welcome your thoughts on this subject, both today and
going forward, and add that this is exactly the kind of
undertaking that has benefited by CIA's working partnership
with this Committee and with its Members.....................
So, it's my hope--and, frankly, my expectation--that you will
look at this Committee as a partner to the CIA's work as our
Nation's first line of defense. The relationship between the
Agency and this Committee is premised, obviously, on
oversight, but it is most effective and most constructive
when we are candid, fulsome, and talking to one another......
Ambassador, as the Chairman indicated, you have a lengthy and
distinguished career of service to our country, and I thank
you for your willingness to resume that service. And I
certainly look forward to your testimony and your answers
here today...................................................
Thank you, Mr. Chairman........................................
Chairman Warner. Thank you, Senator Rubio......................
Bill, I understand you have two of America's most distinguished
public servants, former Secretary of State James Baker and
former Defense and CIA Director Leon Panetta, who will
present brief introductions for you. They'll be speaking
remotely on your behalf today................................
So, Secretary Baker, would you like to go first?...............
STATEMENT BY JAMES BAKER, FORMER SECRETARY OF STATE
Secretary Baker. Thank you Chairman Warner, thank you Vice
Chairman Rubio and Members of the Committee, for inviting me
to speak today on the nomination of William J. Burns to be
Director of the Central Intelligence Agency. I am truly
honored that Bill asked me to speak on his behalf today, and
I am delighted to be joined by my old friend, Leon Panetta...
Without any reservations, Members of the Committee, I can
strongly recommend Bill Burns to you.........................
Bill, President Biden is to be congratulated for choosing you,
and my reasoning in this regard is really straightforward.
Bill is quite simply one of the finest and most intelligent
American diplomats that I had the pleasure of working with.
His unique combination of experience, skill, and character
make him an outstanding choice for directorship of the CIA...
As a Secretary of State, I relied on Bill's judgment during one
of the most tumultuous eras in U.S. foreign policy. He was
instrumental in forging effective American policies as we
worked to end the cold war peacefully, ensure the
reunification of a Germany firmly embedded in the West,
reverse Iraqi aggression against Kuwait, and bring together
Israel and all of its neighboring Arab states for their
first-ever face-to-face meeting at the 1991 Madrid Peace
Conference...................................................
Each of these complex situations was challenging, and Bill's
contributions made an enormous difference. Bill was there
every step of the way, even at times displaying his first-
rate sense of humor by laughing at my weak jokes. Bill
combined the remarkable ability to grasp broad historical
trends while at the same time identifying pragmatic
opportunities for the United States to advance our interests.
After I left office, I watched Bill rise to ever more senior
ranks in the State Department: Executive Secretary,
Ambassador to Jordan, Assistant Secretary for Near Eastern
Affairs, Ambassador to Russia, Undersecretary of State for
Political Affairs, and then finally Deputy Secretary of
State. I wasn't surprised by his success. He is someone who
seizes and surmounts every challenge that he meets...........
Members of the Committee, you can be assured when it comes to
the security of the United States, our country will be in
capable hands. I cannot help but think about another Director
of Central Intelligence, President George H. W. Bush, my
close friend who served as head of the Agency in the 1970s.
President Bush and Bill Burns admittedly represent contrasts
in terms of age, background, and career, but they do share
one important, indeed, essential characteristic: an absolute
and abiding sense of responsibility and duty to the United
States of America. Bill Burns is a leader and a steady hand
under fire. He never hesitates to speak truth even when he
knows it may be unwelcome....................................
He is scrupulously nonpartisan, and he has decades of
experience working closely with the CIA and other
intelligence agencies. He knows Washington. He knows the
work. President Biden and our country would be very fortunate
to have Bill Burns at the helm of the Central Intelligence
Agency.......................................................
Distinguished Members of the Committee, let me close these
brief remarks by simply saying that, in my opinion, this
confirmation should be a bipartisan no-brainer...............
Thank you very much for letting me speak to you today on behalf
of Bill Burns. Thank you.....................................
Chairman Warner. Well, thank you, Secretary Baker, very much
appreciate those comments....................................
Secretary Panetta?.............................................
STATEMENT BY LEON PANETTA, FORMER DIRECTOR, CENTRAL
INTELLIGENCE AGENCY, AND FORMER SECRETARY OF DEFENSE
Secretary Panetta. Mr. Chairman, Senator Warner, Vice Chairman
Rubio, distinguished Members of the Committee, it's an honor
for me to once again have the opportunity to appear before
this Committee that is so critical to protecting our national
security.....................................................
I'm honored to be here alongside my friend, Secretary Jim
Baker. He's an old friend and a colleague for many years in
government, and someone who I believe is probably one of the
great statesmen and public servants of our time. I'm proud to
join him in introducing the President's nominee to be CIA
Director, Ambassador Bill Burns..............................
I've known Bill for a long time. I've been in public life for
probably over 50 years, and I've worked with him in many of
those capacities that I've held in Congress, during my tenure
as Chief of Staff to President Bill Clinton, and as Director
of the CIA and Secretary of Defense in President Obama's
administration...............................................
The job of leading the extraordinary women and men of the CIA
as they carry out their indispensable missions of collection,
analysis, covert action--all intended to defend our Nation--
that job, I believe, is one of the most important
responsibilities in government. And the most important
qualities that I believe a Director should have is to respect
and support the professionals in the CIA who put their lives
on the line in order to protect this country and do their
jobs.........................................................
I think it is important for the Director to protect them from
political influence, to be nonpartisan, and to always, always
make sure that the CIA speaks truth to power. Bill Burns has
those qualities. He understands the dedication of our brave
intelligence officers. He has got the right experience, he
has got the right nonpartisan approach, and he knows the
importance of protecting our country from our adversaries....
In a word, he will make an outstanding Director of the CIA.....
I don't need to tell this Committee that our Nation faces an
increasingly complex set of challenges and threats. I think
in my lifetime I have never seen as many flashpoints in the
world as we have today, whether it's Russia or China or Iran
or North Korea; whether it's cyberattacks; whether it's
challenges that we face in the Middle East, in Afghanistan.
All of these challenges demand good intelligence.............
No President--no President--can make the right decisions for
our Nation in protecting our national security without
intelligence. This is what the CIA does by collecting and
analyzing and presenting intelligence to policymakers so that
they can make the best security decisions for the country and
provide intelligence that can be trusted and is credible.....
The challenge of President Biden and a new Director is to
restore the trust and credibility of the CIA. Having worked
with President Biden, I believe that he understands that
intelligence must be grounded in facts and never be
politicized..................................................
He knows our selfless and brave intelligence professionals, and
they deserve nothing less than our full support. It is for
these reasons that he chose Bill Burns to be the CIA
Director, and I am confident that both will work to restore
trust of the CIA with the National Security Team, with both
Democrats and Republicans on this Committee, with our allies,
and most of all, with the American people....................
As Jim Baker pointed out, Bill has represented our country for
decades as a dedicated, honest diplomat serving both
Democratic and Republican administrations. I won't walk
through his career, Jim just did that. It's been an
outstanding foreign policy career. I have to say it is almost
exactly 10 months ago this month, or 10 years ago this month,
that Bill and I were in the Situation Room presenting
intelligence to the President on the suspected whereabouts of
Osama bin Laden..............................................
Bill saw the CIA in action gathering detailed information,
providing insights, explaining what we knew and also what we
didn't know. And Bill was at the White House on May 1, 2011,
when the courageous mission of our special operations forces
unfolded. He was hand-picked by the Secretary of State to
personally participate in closely held national security
discussions about the mission, and to place calls to our key
allies and foreign leaders informing them of the mission.....
He is a public servant who has spent his life serving and
protecting Americans. As CIA Director, he will certainly
speak truth to power because that is what Bill does, and he
has done that his entire career..............................
He has long known that calling it down the middle is essential
even when it may not be convenient. He will also make sure he
and other Agency leaders are responsive to oversight by this
Committee and by the Congress. As all of you know, I'm a big
believer that the CIA and this Committee have to be partners
in order to fulfill the mission of protecting the American
people. And he knows the array of challenges that the Agency
faces dealing with major competitors, as I said, from China
to so many other of those flashpoints I described, and the
technological landscape in which our officers now have to
operate......................................................
In sum, Mr. Chairman and Mr. Vice Chairman and Members of the
Committee, Bill Burns is the right person at the right time
to lead the CIA. His experience in foreign policy and
national security, his judgment, his unquestioned integrity
will be assets as he leads the CIA in facing the threats that
we face......................................................
And he understands the sacrifices that are made by our
intelligence professionals, often working in the shadows in
dangerous places away from their families. He knows that CIA,
these officers, are silent warriors--officers who put their
lives on the line for our country. I trust Bill Burns to be a
Director who will have their backs so that they can continue
the mission to protect all Americans.........................
As a former Director, I am honored to introduce to the
Committee Bill Burns and urge his swift confirmation. Thank
you..........................................................
Chairman Warner. Well, thank you Secretary Panetta. And let me
just say it's--on a personal basis--not too bad to have Jim
Baker and Leon Panetta be your introducers...................
So now we will move to the Oath of Office......................
Ambassador Burns, would you stand and please raise your right
hand?........................................................
[Nominee stands and raises his right hand.]....................
Do you solemnly swear to give this Committee the truth, the
full truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?......
Ambassador Burns. I do.........................................
Chairman Warner. Please be seated..............................
Before we move to your statement, I would ask you the five
standard questions the Committee poses to each nominee who
appears before us. They just require a simple yes or no
answer for the record........................................
First, do you agree to appear before the Committee here or in
other venues when invited?...................................
Ambassador Burns. Yes, Sir.....................................
Chairman Warner. If confirmed, do you agree to send officials
from your office to appear before the Committee and
designated staff when invited?...............................
Ambassador Burns. Yes..........................................
Chairman Warner. Do you agree to provide documents or other
materials requested by the Committee in order for it to carry
out its oversight and legislative responsibilities?..........
Ambassador Burns. Yes, Sir.....................................
Chairman Warner. Will you ensure that your office and your
staff provide such materials to the Committee when requested?
Ambassador Burns. Yes..........................................
Chairman Warner. Do you agree to inform and fully brief to the
fullest extent possible all Members of this Committee of
intelligence activities and covert actions rather than only
the Chairman and Vice Chairman?..............................
Ambassador Burns. Yes, Sir.....................................
Chairman Warner. Thank you very much...........................
We will now proceed to your opening statement. After that, I
will recognize Members by order of appearance, but assuming
that everybody was here, I think, with the exception of
Senator Cotton at the gavel. So it will be basically by
seniority....................................................
Ambassador Burns, the floor is now yours.......................
STATEMENT OF AMBASSADOR WILLIAM J. BURNS, NOMINEE TO BE
DIRECTOR OF THE CENTRAL INTELLIGENCE AGENCY
Ambassador Burns. Thank you so much............................
Mr. Chairman, Mr. Vice Chairman, Members of the Committee: I am
honored and humbled to appear before you today as President
Biden's nominee for Director of the Central Intelligence
Agency. I am deeply grateful to the President for the
opportunity to return to public service and to lead the
remarkable women and men of CIA..............................
If confirmed, I will do everything in my power to justify the
trust placed in me and to earn the trust of this Committee,
Congress, and the American people. I am also deeply grateful
to Secretary Baker and Director Panetta, two of the finest
public servants this country has ever produced, for their
very generous introductions..................................
My whole life has been shaped by public service. My father, a
career Army officer, fought in Vietnam in the 1960s and
eventually became the Director of the U.S. Arms Control and
Disarmament Agency...........................................
As my three brothers and I bounced from post to post across our
remarkable country we never had to look further than my
father for the best possible model of nonpartisan public
service. And I never had to look further than my mother to
find the best imaginable example of selflessness and
commitment and a life shaped by faith, family, and hard work.
I shared 33 years in the Foreign Service with my wife, Lisa--
herself, an exceptional public servant--and our two wonderful
daughters, Lizzie and Sarah. Their love and support have made
everything possible and have enriched my life beyond measure.
Across those decades as a diplomat in the Middle East and
Russia, and as a senior official in Administrations of both
parties, I developed enormous respect for my CIA colleagues.
I served alongside them in hard places around the world. It
was their skill at collection and analysis that often gave me
an edge as a negotiator: their partnership that helped make
me an effective Ambassador and their insights that helped me
make thoughtful choices on the most difficult policy issues..
I learned that good intelligence delivered with honesty and
integrity is America's first line of defense. I learned that
intelligence professionals have to tell policymakers what
they need to hear, even if they don't want to hear it. And I
learned that politics must stop where intelligence work
begins. That is exactly what President Biden expects of CIA.
It was the first thing he told me when he asked me to take on
this role. He said he wants the Agency to give it to him
straight, and I pledged to do just that and to defend those
who do the same..............................................
As the President has emphasized, all of America's national
security institutions will have to reimagine their roles on
an international landscape that is profoundly different from
the world I encountered as a young diplomat nearly 40 years
ago, or even the world as it was when I left government six
years ago....................................................
Today's landscape is increasingly complicated and competitive.
It's a world where familiar threats persist from terrorism
and nuclear proliferation to an aggressive Russia, a
provocative North Korea, and a hostile Iran..................
But it's also a world of new challenges in which climate change
and global health and security are taking a heavy toll on the
American people; in which cyber threats pose an ever greater
risk to our society; and in which an adversarial, predatory
Chinese leadership poses our biggest geopolitical test. If
confirmed, four crucial and interrelated priorities will
shape my approach to leading CIA: China, technology, people,
and partnerships.............................................
As President Biden has underscored, out-competing China will be
key to our national security in the decades ahead. That will
require a long-term, clear-eyed bipartisan strategy
underpinned by domestic renewal and solid intelligence. There
will be areas in which it will be in our mutual self-interest
to work with China, from climate change to nonproliferation.
And I am very mindful that Xi Jinping's China is not without
problems and frailties of its own. There are, however, a
growing number of areas in which Xi's China is a formidable
authoritarian adversary, methodically strengthening its
capabilities to steal intellectual property, repress its own
people, bully its neighbors, expand its global reach, and
build influence in American society..........................
For CIA, that will mean intensified focus and urgency,
continually strengthening its already impressive cadre of
China specialists, expanding its language skills, aligning
personnel and resource allocation for the long haul, and
employing a whole-of-agency approach to the operational and
analytical challenges of this crucial threat.................
Another priority intimately connected to competition with China
is technology. As all of you know as well as I do, the
revolution in technology and rapid advances in fields like
artificial intelligence are transforming the ways we live,
work, fight, and compete.....................................
CIA has a rich tradition of innovation and nothing will matter
more to our ability to remain the best intelligence service
in the world. CIA will need to relentlessly sharpen its
capabilities to understand how rivals use cyber and other
technological tools; anticipate, detect, and deter their use;
and keep an edge in developing them ourselves. If confirmed,
I'll have no higher priority than reinforcing CIA's greatest
asset, its people............................................
The work of CIA's men and women is often invisible to most
Americans. But I have served side-by-side with them, seeing
firsthand their courage, their professionalism, and their
sacrifices. I was privileged to be in the White House
Situation Room when CIA's brilliant work helped bring Osama
bin Laden to justice. But I also remember sadder and harder
days, the sorrow and pain after the tragic attack at Khost,
and quiet personal moments spent in front of the Agency's
memorial wall whose stars include friends with whom I served.
Honoring the sacrifice those stars represent means
strengthening a workforce worthy of the CIA's seal, one that
reflects the richness of our society and enables us to carry
out our global mission. That means working even harder to
enhance diversity, equity, and inclusion from entry-level to
senior ranks. It means working even harder to retain and
develop the Agency's extraordinary talent....................
Equipping them with the language skills, technical tools,
training, and tradecraft that they require. And it means
ensuring the health and well-being of colleagues and their
families through this awful pandemic and wherever and
whenever they face harm or risk..............................
Finally, if confirmed, I'll prioritize partnerships within the
Intelligence Community and across the world. I will work
closely with the Director of National Intelligence, my
longtime friend and colleague, Avril Haines, to make sure the
Agency's efforts fit seamlessly with her vision for
integrating the Intelligence Community. America's
partnerships and alliances are what set our country apart
from lonelier major powers like China and Russia.............
For CIA, intelligence partnerships are an increasingly
important means of amplifying our understanding and
influence. Investing in those liaison relationships has never
been more important. It's a task for which my whole career
has prepared me..............................................
No partnership will be more important to me than the one I hope
to build with all of you on this Committee. In my
conversations with each of you over the last few weeks, I
have been struck by your commitment to bipartisanship and
sense of shared purpose. I deeply respect your crucial
oversight role which allows the American people to have
confidence that the Agency is working faithfully on their
behalf and living up to our values...........................
If confirmed, I promise to do all I can to earn your trust and
to be a strong partner. I'll seek your advice as well as your
consent and I'll be accessible and honest, qualities I've
tried hard to demonstrate throughout a lifetime in public
service. I am deeply honored to be here today and I look
forward to your questions....................................
Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman..............................
[The prepared statement of Ambassador Burns follows:]..........
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Chairman Warner. Thank you, Ambassador Burns. And for planning
purposes, if any Members of the Committee wish to submit
questions for the record after today's hearing, please do so
by the close of business on Friday, February 26th............
We will be going through five-minute rounds....................
Can you speak with a little more specificity to how you can go
about restoring some of the morale of the workforce of the
CIA? You know ``morale'' is an ethereal term. Are there
measurement techniques or things that we should look to see
how the workforce is doing, feeling, operating, you know
three months, six months, a year in?.........................
Ambassador Burns. Well, Mr. Chairman, I think in many ways the
most important single thing is to reinforce--to what I hope
are my future colleagues in CIA, if I'm confirmed--that their
work matters more than ever, as I tried to describe in my
opening statement. That their expertise, their courage, their
sacrifices are respected.....................................
And that, as I promised President Biden, we will deliver
unvarnished intelligence, the best possible intelligence we
can gather, the most sophisticated all-source analysis, to
deliver it to policymakers without any hint of politics or
any policy agenda............................................
To speak truth to power just as you rightly emphasize in your
own opening comments, that's what President Biden expects of
me. That's what I will do to the very best of my ability and,
as I said, I will defend all of my colleagues who do exactly
the same thing. And I think that's what's crucially
important....................................................
Chairman Warner. I think the Committee will want to check in on
this on a fairly regular basis. I think we've heard a number
of concerns. A number of folks--professionals--were leaving.
We've got to stanch that flow and move forward...............
On that issue and related at least--and this has really been a
concern of Senator Collins, and of the whole Committee--we've
seen evidence now not just of Agency personnel, but State
Department personnel and others become victims of mysterious
attacks. It was for a while called the Havana Syndrome. And a
number of us have been quite concerned that we still don't
know the source of those attacks. We still don't potentially
have a full medical diagnosis................................
And even though we have put it into law on the last three intel
authorization bills, the ability for the CIA Director to
provide enhanced benefits to those individuals--the kind of
first-rate quality healthcare and compensation they need and
deserve--we're not sure that's really taking place. So, I
want you to speak to that....................................
I want to also get a commitment from you that CIA personnel who
may have suffered brain injury have the option of treatment
in our Nation's premier TBI facilities, including Walter Reed
and other facilities of the highest caliber. To date,
unfortunately that has not been the case.....................
Ambassador Burns. Well, Mr. Chairman, the first thing I'd say
is I very much admire your leadership, the leadership of the
Vice Chairman and Senator Collins, as well as other Members
of the Committee on these issues. Not only do I admire and
appreciate it, but I know it's deeply appreciated by the
women and men of the CIA.....................................
If I'm confirmed as Director of CIA, I will have no higher
priority than taking care of people, of colleagues and their
families. And I do commit to you that, if I'm confirmed, I
will make it an extraordinarily high priority to get to the
bottom of who's responsible for the attacks that you just
described, and to ensure that colleagues and their families
get the care that they deserve, including at the National
Institutes of Health and at Walter Reed. And I look forward
very much to working with all of you to ensure that that's
the case.....................................................
Chairman Warner. And the last question is this Committee, under
the leadership of Senator Burr and Senator Rubio, in many
ways I think carved out a role as the technology committee on
the Hill, and we really were the group that first raised the
concerns about China's technological advances. We were the
Committee that called into question and then tried to
formulate across government a 5G response....................
On this issue of technology advancement, as Senator Rubio
pointed out, China doesn't have the goal of competing with
us; they have the goal of beating us in technological
advancement. You may want to comment on this briefly, but
continuing CIA's role to monitor China's advancement in all
these technology fields is not simply a CIA directive. But we
really do think the Intelligence Community has a broader view
on this issue than any other part of our government..........
Ambassador Burns. No, it's hugely important, Mr. Chairman. And
as I tried to emphasize in my opening statement, that
connection between dealing with an adversarial China and
ensuring that we can continue to compete effectively in
technology is right at the top of my list of priorities, if
I'm confirmed................................................
And I do respect the role of this Committee. And I watched the
open hearing yesterday on SolarWinds, and it seemed to me to
be a classic illustration of the value of a serious committee
in looking at these issues. And I look forward very much to
working with all of you on that..............................
Chairman Warner. Thank you, Mr. Ambassador. Mr. Vice Chairman?.
Vice Chairman Rubio. Thank you, Mr. Chairman...................
Ambassador, in your written questions, you acknowledge that
China uses cultural and educational programs, things like the
Confucius Institutes and others, to try to influence U.S.
policy debates to spread pro-China propaganda. So, given this
acknowledgment, I wanted to focus a little bit on your time
as the president of the Carnegie Endowment for International
Peace........................................................
Now, Carnegie is involved with the China-United States Exchange
Foundation, an organization that you acknowledged in your
written questions and answers that is part of China's United
Front system, which is an effort to co-opt and neutralize
sources of potential opposition in part of their efforts to
encourage foreign countries to adopt positions and narratives
supportive of Beijing's preferred policies...................
And in this work at the Endowment, it's reported that in 2019
you invited 11 Congressional staffers on a trip to China.
They met with a professor who works for the Communist Party
Central Committee. They met with the president of another
front group for the Chinese Communist Party--a group that was
designated last October by the State Department as a group
that seeks to directly influence and actually--the quote is:
``Sought to directly and malignly influence state and local
leaders in the United States.''..............................
And this group that you partnered with, the China-United States
Exchange Foundation, a congressionally-appointed commission,
in August 2018 said that they showed a clear intent to
influence policy toward China in the United States. So, given
your stated concerns about Chinese soft-power influence
efforts, why while you were at the helm, did Carnegie
Endowment for International Peace establish a relationship
with and accept funding from this group, this China-United
States Exchange Foundation?..................................
Ambassador Burns. Well, thanks, Senator Rubio, for the
question.....................................................
The first thing I'd emphasize is the Carnegie Endowment is a
proudly independent and transparent organization, and
scrupulous about ensuring that whatever financial support it
receives, whether it's from trustees or foundations, doesn't
in any way shape the content or the conclusions of scholarly
work at Carnegie. That's first...............................
Second, on the China-U.S. Exchange Foundation, this is a
relationship that I inherited when I became president of
Carnegie--and that I ended not long after I became president,
precisely for the concerns that you just described, because
we were increasingly worried about the expansion of Chinese
influence operations.........................................
Shortly after I ended that relationship, we began a program at
the Carnegie Endowment on countering foreign influence
operations, which was aimed mostly at China and Russia, and
was supported in part from a grant from the Global Engagement
Center at the State Department in the last Administration....
On the second issue, Senator Rubio, that you raised on the
congressional staff delegation: in 2019 we did partner with
the Aspen Institute, which as you know, for decades under the
leadership of Dan Glickman, former Congressman Dan Glickman,
has managed both Member and staff delegations to many
different parts of the world. This was a trip that included
senior staff members, both Republicans and Democrats, both
from the House and the Senate................................
It was fully approved in advance by the House Ethics Committee,
and in my view was an illustration of what an institution
like Carnegie should do, which is to provide congressional
staff members with an opportunity to engage directly with
Chinese counterparts and to express their concerns about
Chinese actions and malign behavior quite directly. So in
that sense, I think it was a good illustration of what a
nongovernmental institution like Carnegie working with the
Aspen Institute can do.......................................
But I share your concerns about foreign influence operations.
And as I said, we've tried to demonstrate in our work at
Carnegie over the time that I was president our appreciation
of that threat...............................................
Vice Chairman Rubio. My second and final question is about
Tsinghua University, which has been designated by the
Australian Strategic Policy Institute as a very high risk for
its level of defense research and alleged involvement in
cyber-attacks. Carnegie, while you were there, worked with
Tsinghua University to set up the Carnegie-Tsinghua Center in
Beijing, a center that features seven individuals who work at
the university as its guiding scholars, who have ties to the
Communist Party..............................................
Two of the Center's senior fellows serve in senior Chinese
Communist Party roles. And the Center partnered with the
Center for China and Globalization, a Beijing think tank
associated and linked to the Communist Party--whose president
is linked to the Communist Party's efforts via the--he plays
a prominent role with the United Front, which is a group that
Xi Jinping has called China's secret weapon..................
I'm curious. What conditions, restrictions did the Chinese
impose in order for this Center to be set up?................
Ambassador Burns. Well, Senator Rubio, you're right. I mean,
the Center that Carnegie operates in Beijing--and has for
more than a decade--is a partnership with Tsinghua
University. During my time as president, I was
extraordinarily careful to ensure that the arrangements that
we had as a nongovernmental organization operating there
allowed us to continue to do independent work and that has
been the case over the last six years........................
I have also made clear to my colleagues at Carnegie that the
moment we were constrained in doing that independent work, we
would cease operations because our point is not simply to
exist. Carnegie's point is not to exist in centers in
different parts of the world. It is to do high-quality,
independent work. When that becomes impossible or our
scholars are self-censoring, then that is the moment at which
it becomes no longer feasible to operate there...............
Vice Chairman Rubio. Thank you.................................
Chairman Warner. Senator Feinstein?............................
Senator Feinstein. Thanks Mr. Chairman.........................
Over a decade ago, Mr. Burns, the CIA engaged in the use of
waterboarding and other so-called enhanced interrogation
techniques during interrogations. You provided
straightforward answers in the pre-hearing questions, and I
appreciate that, but I want to cover this topic because I
believe it remains a priority to ensure that we never return
to this......................................................
So let me ask you the same types of questions that I asked
Directors Coats, Pompeo, and Haspel when they were before us.
Do you agree that current law prohibits any interrogation
techniques not allowed by the United States Army Field Manual
on interrogation?............................................
Ambassador Burns. Senator Feinstein, it is good to see you.....
I believe that waterboarding does constitute torture under the
law. As you well know, this issue of the enhanced
interrogation techniques has been a settled matter for more
than a decade. They were prohibited by President Obama in
2009; and then under the leadership of Senator McCain, the
Congress enshrined this in legislation to ensure that the
only permissible interrogation methods were those allowed in
the Army Field Manual........................................
I think it's fair to say we all learned some very hard lessons
in the period after 9/11. It is very important--it is crucial
to be mindful of those lessons and to move forward. And so
it's in that spirit that I also share Director Haines's view
that we should not take actions against or prejudice the
careers of officers who may have worked in those programs at
a time when they were operating under Department of Justice
guidelines and at the direction of the President.............
So to answer your question specifically, again, I am certainly
committed to what the law provides right now and to ensuring
that those enhanced interrogation methods are never again
used by CIA. They certainly will not be under my leadership,
if I am confirmed............................................
Senator Feinstein. Well, thank you very much for that answer.
It certainly was fulsome and I greatly respect the fact that
you came forward with it in the way in which you did.........
As noted in the Intelligence Community's statement for the
record in 2019 and our most recent worldwide threats
assessment hearing, China has the ability to launch
cyberattacks that cause localized temporary disruptive
effects on critical infrastructure, natural gas pipelines,
for days or weeks; and Russia has the ability to execute
cyberattacks in the United States that generate localized
temporary disruptive effects on critical infrastructure,
electrical distribution networks, for at least few hours, and
so on. I am concerned by this and want to know how we address
this threat..................................................
So here's the question.........................................
What do you believe is the appropriate role for the CIA in
diminishing these types of cyber threats to our critical
infrastructure? And what else could the CIA be doing to help
ensure the integrity of national cyber security?.............
Ambassador Burns. Well, thanks, Senator. As the hearing that
this Committee conducted yesterday underscored, the
SolarWinds attack, that cyberattack, was a very harsh wake-up
call I think for all of us about the vulnerabilities of
supply chains and critical infrastructure in both the private
sector and the public sector in this country. And we have
seen in recent years how both the Chinese leadership as well
as the Russian leadership have an aggressive determination to
take advantage of those vulnerabilities......................
I first saw this when I was Ambassador in Moscow in 2007, and
the Russians staged--Vladimir Putin's Russia staged--a very
determined cyberattack on Estonia, a small NATO ally of the
United States................................................
So if this is a harsh wake-up call, then I think it's essential
for the CIA in particular to work even harder to develop our
capabilities to help detect these kind of attacks when they
come from external players, from foreign players, which is
the responsibility of the CIA--to help attribute those.
Because without attribution, it is very difficult to deter
future attacks, continue to develop our own technological and
cyber capabilities as a part of that potential deterrence....
And then at the same time to deepen partnerships across the
Intelligence Community with domestic agencies like FBI and
the Department of Homeland Security; with the private sector,
where there is a shared interest in helping to shore up these
vulnerabilities in critical infrastructure; and then finally
and not least, with foreign partners as well, many of whom,
as I mentioned in the case of Estonia, have faced these same
kind of threats. Where we can learn from their experience and
working together. Not only build better defenses, but also
begin to build leverage against adversaries, and over time, I
have been convinced, work with like-minded countries, allies,
and partners not only to build leverage but to build rules of
the road that help protect critical infrastructure--that help
make clear international understandings that certain kinds of
critical infrastructure are off-limits for those kind of
cyberattacks.................................................
That will take time, it will take enormous effort, but I think
the CIA and intelligence can be an important part of that
effort.......................................................
Senator Feinstein. Thank you very much. Thanks, Mr. Chairman...
Chairman Warner. Senator Burr?.................................
Senator Burr. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Ambassador, welcome.....
Ambassador Burns. Good to see you, Sir.........................
Senator Burr. Hard to believe that we have known each other for
over a quarter-century. I'm sure as you drove to the Hill
today it reminded you of some of the battle zones you have
served in. You have not been given vacation spots at your
time at the State Department and I think this Committee is
grateful to you for your service up until now and, more
importantly, for what you are about to embark on.............
Bill, as you know it is difficult for Federal agencies to
recruit talent today. It is particularly difficult in an
agency that requires security clearances. Do you have any
idea today how you might want to restructure the recruitment
process so that you can begin to onboard people earlier?.....
It is difficult to recruit out of a university or graduate
school and say: we've got a job for you but in a year after
you have cleared security clearance..........................
Do you see a need to revamp that in a way that allows you to
bring that talent in?........................................
Ambassador Burns. Senator Burr, yes I do, and I have seen
through my own experience at another agency at the State
Department the price that you pay when security clearance
processes drag on and on. You lose good people; it becomes
very difficult to recruit the kind of workforce, particularly
a diverse workforce, that CIA requires to be effective. And
so one of my high priorities, if I am confirmed, will be to
take a hard look at that issue...............................
I know work has gone on in the past on this. I know previous
Directors have worked hard at this issue, but I agree with
you on its significance, and you can't hope to have effective
recruitment processes unless we find a way to streamline that
process......................................................
Senator Burr. Well, the Chairman has been outspoken on it, and
I am sure he will be dogged as it relates to the way forward.
Ambassador, you speak three languages. Talk to us about how you
see language requirements within the Agency going forward. Is
it a priority?...............................................
Ambassador Burns. It has to be a priority, Senator. I know it
was a priority for Gina Haspel as well, and I greatly respect
that.........................................................
Human intelligence cuts right to the core of CIA's unique role
and responsibilities and a part of gathering that human
intelligence which complements technical means that CIA and
other parts of the Intelligence Community have made enormous
progress on in recent years. But they are not a substitute
for human intelligence. A part of that collection effort has
to require, does require, a facility in foreign languages....
And so, as I discussed when I was talking about the high
priority that I would attach to China if I'm confirmed as
Director, a part of that intelligence--a part of that
priority--requires expanding the number of Mandarin language
speakers in CIA and making that a priority and continuing to
work to expand other hard language facility at the Agency.
It's crucially important.....................................
Senator Burr. You've heard and you will hear Members on this
Committee all talk about technology. And I think most of us
would agree that the United States is behind as it relates to
our ability to adapt new technologies. We're slow; we fight
it...........................................................
The reason that many of our adversaries have made the gains
that they have is because of their willingness to accept
technology, to use technology, to leverage that against what
we built.....................................................
How do you intend to use technology both in the workforce and
in the tradecraft to make sure that we fully take advantage
of what I think is the greatest innovative country in the
world?.......................................................
Ambassador Burns. Well, Senator, I think you're exactly right.
CIA has a rich history of innovation and agility and
technology, but if I'm confirmed, I recognize that we're
going to have to work even harder to be innovative and to be
agile........................................................
You mentioned tradecraft, one of the big challenges today in
operational tradecraft is ubiquitous technical surveillance,
the capacity of a number of our adversaries to make it much
more complicated to conduct traditional tradecraft. And so
the Agency, like so many other parts of the U.S. Government,
is going to have to adapt to that kind of a challenge. I'm
entirely confident that the women and men of CIA are capable
of that......................................................
It's also going to require--Senator, this is the one point I
would add--greater effort to work with the private sector as
well so that we cannot only keep pace with technological
progress, but get out ahead of it. That's exactly what our
adversaries are doing and that's what I think we need to put
even greater effort into as well.............................
Senator Burr. Ambassador, let me remind you that the two
introductions that were made for you, one thing they both
highlighted, the need for the partnership with this Committee
and with the CIA. I know you embrace that fully and for that,
we're grateful. I look forward to your confirmation..........
Ambassador Burns. Thank you, Sir. I look forward to it as well.
Senator Burr. Thank you........................................
Chairman Warner. Senator Wyden.................................
Senator Wyden. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.........................
Mr. Ambassador, at the risk of this becoming a full-fledged
bouquet-tossing contest, I want to just register a couple of
areas that you've been involved in that are especially
important to me. Your track record on human rights is, I
think, a real attribute for this job and of course your
experience at the State Department. It is rare that we see
people with that kind of background. So, we're very
appreciative of having you here..............................
Let me start--and I think we touched on it--with respect to
this matter of correcting false statements. If you or any
other CIA officials says something publicly that is
inaccurate, will you correct the public record?..............
Ambassador Burns. Well, Senator, as we discussed, I believe
it's a serious responsibility. If I'm confirmed as CIA
Director--if in the case of a policymaker making a statement
that I judge later to be at variance with intelligence that
we provided, to work with that policymaker to try to correct
that statement and to get it right. I think, as you well
know, Senator, that cuts right to the core of building
credibility and building trust, which are the foundations, I
think, for sound policy choices as well. So, I would
certainly take that very seriously in doing everything I can
to correct the record........................................
Senator Wyden. Very good.......................................
My second question deals with this question of technology and
I'm glad that you staked out the ground that'll be a priority
for you. A major technology challenge will be to protect
sources and methods while not hiding the legal
interpretations that are used to conduct operations. And I'm
especially troubled by situations in which the government
goes around the courts and buys Americans private records
from data brokers, people who are basically unregulated. It's
one of the sleaziest operations I know of....................
And I'm actually introducing legislation, ``The Fourth
Amendment Is Not for Sale Act,'' here very shortly. We talked
about this with Director Haines at her confirmation process,
and I would like to ask you whether you would make public the
circumstances under which the Intelligence Community--excuse
me: under which the CIA as part of the Intelligence Community
purchases commercially available information and the legal
basis for doing so?..........................................
Ambassador Burns. Yes, Senator, I share Director Haines's view
that it would be very valuable to lay out a framework that
makes clear to the American people the guidelines and the
legal boundaries within which we would undertake those
activities. So, I'm a strong believer in transparency and I
share Director Haines's commitment...........................
Senator Wyden. Now, with respect to accountability: in 2013,
the CIA acknowledged that it had fallen short in holding
people accountable for failures associated with the
management of the torture program. And I want to use my words
carefully here because this has been a subject of some
debate.......................................................
So, my question is: the CIA then recommended, and I believe
what the discussion was about was going forward, that it
broadened accountability reviews to consider systemic
problems and officers responsible for those systemic
problems, as well as management failures. So, this was a
recommendation of a long time ago, 2013......................
Do you agree with the CIA's 2013 recommendation and will you
implement it so that, going forward, everybody is clear about
the fact that it will be followed?...........................
Ambassador Burns. I will, Senator..............................
I attach great importance to accountability. I will certainly
follow-through on that if I'm confirmed as Director. I do
think it's important in conducting accountability review
processes to also look at ways in which you can address
systemic problems as well....................................
Senator Wyden. I think that's constructive and I want to work
with you on the timeline. This will be something we'll talk
about on another occasion; but since it was recommended in
2013, that's been a long time. We've got to get it done......
Last question is: over the years, the CIA has at times impeded
congressional oversight by limiting briefings to the so-
called ``Gang of Eight,'' limiting staff access to important
programs and operations, and failing to inform the Committee
at all. Will you conduct a thorough review of where the CIA
has engaged in any of these practices and report back to the
full Committee so that all of us--every Member--will know how
access can be expanded?......................................
Ambassador Burns. Well, Senator, if I'm confirmed, I certainly
will be committed to trying to provide as much information as
possible to the broader Committee on sensitive operations and
collection. And I do commit to reviewing the practices of my
predecessors with regard to what information was restricted
to Gang of Eight and to working with all of you on this
Committee on that issue......................................
Senator Wyden. Good. I just want to tell my colleagues I'll be
supporting Ambassador Burns and look forward to working with
him..........................................................
Chairman Warner. Senator Collins...............................
Senator Collins. Thank you.....................................
Ambassador Burns, welcome......................................
Ambassador Burns. Thank you....................................
Senator Collins. I first want to express my appreciation to you
for engaging in an extensive conversation with me about the
CIA officials who have been the subject of these terrible
attacks that have left them with, in some cases, permanent
traumatic brain injuries.....................................
And I was very glad that both the Chairman and the Vice
Chairman brought up this issue to you. I know that we have
your firm commitment to ensure that those who have been
injured receive the best possible--best possible--medical
care without going through hassles and roadblocks. And I hope
we also have your commitment to focus on identifying the
perpetrator of these heinous attacks.........................
Ambassador Burns. Senator, I very much appreciated our earlier
conversations on these issues as well. And I just reemphasize
my commitment on both of those counts to doing everything I
can, if I'm confirmed as Director, to help get to the bottom
of who's responsible for those attacks and second----........
Chairman Warner. Ambassador Burns, could you scoot your mic a
little bit closer?...........................................
Ambassador Burns. Sure, is that better?........................
Chairman Warner. Yes...........................................
Ambassador Burns.--and commit not only to trying to get to the
bottom of who's responsible, but also to ensure that my
future colleagues get the care that they and their families
deserve, whether it's at Walter Reed or National Institute of
Health or elsewhere. And I look forward very much to working
with you on those issues.....................................
And I know there are a range of other issues affecting the care
and well-being of my future colleagues, those who, for
example, have served as a paramilitary officers over the
course of recent years and have made enormous sacrifices in
the last two decades who also face genuine health challenges.
And I also commit to trying to ensure that they get the best
care possible as well........................................
Senator Collins. Thank you.....................................
In the questions for the record, you were asked about the
Confucius Institutes that are on some of our college
campuses. And I was pleased to see that you agree that the
Chinese Communist Party uses these institutes as an
instrument for propaganda....................................
Two questions. First, could you elaborate on how the Chinese
Communist Party uses these Confucius Institutes to advance
its goals? And second, what would be your advice to any
college campus that is still hosting a Confucius Institute?..
Ambassador Burns. Senator, thanks for the question.............
I think, you know, what the Confucius Institutes do--and I'm no
expert on them--is to promote a narrative of Xi Jinping's
China which is designed to build sympathy for what is, in my
view, a quite aggressive leadership which has engaged in
conduct and conducted an adversarial approach to relations
with the United States. So, in that sense, that particular
dimension of foreign influence operations constitutes a
genuine risk.................................................
And so, my advice for any institutions in the United States,
including academic institutions, is to be extraordinarily
careful of what the motives are for a variety of institutions
like that and to be very careful in engaging them............
Senator Collins. Would you recommend that they shut them down?.
Ambassador Burns. I mean, if I were a president of a college or
university and had a Confucius Institute, that's certainly
what I would do..............................................
Senator Collins. Thank you.....................................
Chairman Warner. Senator Heinrich?.............................
Senator Heinrich Thank you, Chairman. Welcome, Ambassador......
Ambassador Burns. Hi, Senator..................................
Senator Heinrich. Thanks for the time that we were able to
connect earlier..............................................
You've been a customer of the CIA's intelligence for many years
in your various roles at state, so you're no stranger to the
Agency, to the value that it brings. But if you're confirmed,
you'll be the first--and it looks like you're off to a good
start, by the way--but you'll be the first career diplomat to
serve as Director of the Agency..............................
So, you'll be in a really good position to help ensure that
good intelligence is in the service of good policy...........
So, talk to us a little about, at the 30,000-foot level, just
how you intend to leverage your diplomatic experience in this
new role that is very different from what you did before.....
Ambassador Burns. Well, thanks very much, Senator. And I
enjoyed our earlier conversation as well. As you said, I've
had long experience both in the field and in senior
policymaking jobs in Washington in working with the CIA, and
I absolutely agree with you that good intelligence delivered
with honesty and integrity is the critical foundation for
sound policy choices.........................................
I had a very positive experience as a chief of mission working
overseas, working with intelligence colleagues. They
understood that, as the chief of mission, I was the
President's representative on the ground. I led country
teams, which in the case, for example, Moscow when I was
Ambassador there from 2005-2008, was still one of our biggest
embassies in the world. There were more than two dozen
agencies in that country team................................
So, they understood--CIA station chief did--their obligation to
keep me fully and currently informed. In return, I respected
their professionalism and trusted it, and I didn't
micromanage. I can't remember one instance when I was a chief
of mission either in Moscow or in Jordan where we had to
elevate an issue because we had a difference to Washington...
Now, when I was Deputy Secretary of State, there were several
instances, not a large number, where differences between a
chief of mission and a chief of station were raised to my
level. And I was able to work out with my counterpart, the
Deputy Director of CIA, in virtually all of those instances a
reasonable approach. I can count on less than one hand the
number of times we had to elevate that even higher...........
So, I raise that only because I think there's no substitute in
the end for good leadership and professionalism and trust in
making that relationship work, and in understanding the
critical role of unvarnished intelligence in the policymaking
process......................................................
Senator Heinrich. I think that's a helpful answer in setting up
my next question as well, which is this is a remarkable
agency. It has some of the most talented people in service to
our country of any agency in existence. But as I mentioned in
our recent conversation, when things do get awry, sometimes
it is because of things that are inherent to the culture of
the Agency...................................................
It can be resistant to change, resistant to transparency, not
always welcoming of outsiders. And you told me you're
familiar with this concern from your time working with the
Agency overseas..............................................
I'm just curious. If you're confirmed, how would you approach,
especially as an outsider, the cultural challenges that can
be inherent in an agency like this?..........................
Ambassador Burns. Well, I'm certainly familiar with the
cultural identity of different institutions. I mean, my old
institution, the State Department, has its own share of
tribalism and cultural challenges to be overcome. It's not a
perfect institution either...................................
I have enormous respect for career public servants, whether
it's at state--or now I hope at CIA. And, you know, you have
to understand what drives different professionals in that
organization. If you're a case officer overseas, that
requires an enormous amount of professional skill and courage
and creativity as well, and that's a huge asset for the
promotion of American interests around the world. Analysts at
CIA are noted for their honesty, for their willingness to
speak truth to power.........................................
And that's why it's so essential for a Director to have their
backs and to defend them when they do that, and to make sure
that we're trying to get the best out of all of those
different roles at the Agency to keep pace with technological
change as well, which is another of the great assets, I
think, of CIA, and to be able to integrate all of those
skills and all of those cultures in a way that serves the
national interest. And that's what I'll be determined to do..
Chairman Warner. Senator Blunt?................................
Senator Blunt. Thank you, Chairman. And thank you, Senator
Heinrich. I was going to cover exactly those two topics,
understanding the building. I did read in some of the
articles on this the CIA agents you had worked with over the
years were incredibly confident that as a consumer of this
information you'd bring a lot to the job.....................
I think Robert Richer said: Burns knows the building. And I
think your response to Senator Heinrich suggests that you've
thought more about the conversation we had about the
importance of being engaged in that culture in an imminent
way..........................................................
I'm wondering, Ambassador, as maybe the person who's been the
biggest consumer of CIA assistance and information who would
have ever had this job, how would you think that would impact
you structuring how the product comes out and how the Agency
works as it relates to thinking about the real ultimate goal
of the information is not for the CIA to make any decision,
but to get it to the consumer in a way that an ambassador or
somebody in the administration or a Member of Congress can
fully understand the information in the best possible way?...
Ambassador Burns. Thanks so much, Senator, because it cuts
right to the core of what my responsibilities will be if I'm
confirmed. You know, as a senior policymaker and consumer of
intelligence from the CIA, what mattered most to me was that
I got their honest judgment on issues, even when it might be
inconvenient or unwelcome in some ways because it just
complicated what was an already complicated set of policy
choices......................................................
But what I learned, sometimes the hard way over my career, is
that unless you're getting unvarnished intelligence without a
hint of politics or policy agenda, it becomes impossible to
have an effective policy process. You also want to get it as
quickly as you can, with regard, for example, to issues of
attribution, whether there is a cyber-threat like the one the
Committee was discussing yesterday, being able to get to the
bottom of that is absolutely crucial to trying to sort
through policy choices as well...............................
So I think that the better the connection, in a way, between
policymakers who understand what it takes to produce high-
quality intelligence and produce it in a timely way, and
intelligence professionals who understand what policymakers
are wrestling with as they try to sort through what are
almost inevitably a set of unappealing choices--I think that
becomes crucial to an effective process......................
Senator Blunt. I think this has already come up before but I
think you want to be sure that this Committee becomes an
informed ally in the effort to be sure that the artificial
intelligence, the machine learning helps you, is adequate to
get things narrowed down to where an individual should be
looking at them..............................................
There is more and more information all of the time and how you
get that information to the point where you can in your very
best possible way analyze it is going to be, I think,
increasingly important.......................................
You know, we first met when you were in Moscow and the
Ambassador there. How do you think your understanding of
Moscow, of Russia, of Putin is going to be helpful as you
advise both this Committee and the President?................
Ambassador Burns. Well, thanks, Senator Blunt and I remember
fondly our meeting now almost 15 years ago, I think, in
Moscow. You know most of my white hair came from my service
in Russia over the years, and in particular in dealing with
Vladimir Putin's Russia......................................
What I have learned is that it is always a mistake to
underestimate Putin's Russia; that while Russia may be in
many ways a declining power, it can be at least as disruptive
under Putin's leadership as rising powers like China. And so
we have to be quite cold-eyed in our view of how those
threats can emerge...........................................
And what I have also learned, even though I will set aside my
former policymaker role, is that in dealing with those
threats, responding to them and deterring them, firmness and
consistency is hugely important. And it's also very important
to work to the maximum extent possible with allies and
partners.....................................................
We have more effect sometimes on Putin's calculus when he sees
responses coming--firm responses coming--not just from the
United States but from our European allies and others as
well. So it pays off to work hard at widening that circle of
countries who are going to push back.........................
Senator Blunt. Well thank you, Ambassador. I look forward to
supporting your nomination and to the relationship when you
are confirmed that you will have with this Committee, which
is incredibly important for us and I hope it turns out to be
equally important for you....................................
Ambassador Burns. I look forward to it, Senator. Thank you.....
Senator Blunt. Thank you, Chairman.............................
Chairman Warner. Senator King on WebEx.........................
Senator King. Mr. Ambassador, welcome to the Committee.........
Ambassador Burns. Hi, Senator..................................
Senator King. It's great to be with you and I realized when you
were being introduced today that you and I had something in
common. Both of us took the Foreign Service exam some decades
ago, the only difference was that you passed and I didn't.
But we won't dwell on that, but I appreciate having you here.
There's been a lot of talk today, rightly so, about truth to
power. And sometimes that sounds too easy and my concern is
it's more subtle than somebody mendaciously doctoring
intelligence or changing it. It's human nature to want to
tell the boss what they want to hear.........................
And so the question is: how do we build a structure to be sure
that that is the ongoing policy and that we don't slip into a
kind of a comfortable relationship with the President or this
Committee or the Secretary of Defense where it is more of an
unconscious process but the result is the same: biased
intelligence that will undermine good decision-making?.......
Give me some thoughts on that, please..........................
Ambassador Burns. Well, Senator King, it is good to see you and
I think you are absolutely right. Speaking truth to power has
to be more than a slogan and it is often easier said than
done. You know, I think the tone gets set at the top.........
I have known President Biden for a quarter century and have
great respect for him and when he told me--literally almost
the first thing he said when he asked me to take on this
role--that he expected me and CIA to deliver intelligence to
him straight. I know that he meant it and I think setting
that tone at the top is crucially important..................
I know it can become difficult in the press of crises and
policymaking to lose sight of the importance of delivering
unadulterated intelligence judgments, and it's important to
remain mindful of that over time and be reminded of it as I
know all of you on this Committee will remind me.............
All I can say is that I am acutely aware of the importance of
playing that role. I know it's a different role than the one
I have played in the past as a policymaker, as an ambassador
overseas. But I look forward to it because I do understand
from those perspectives how crucial it is to have
intelligence, the best possible intelligence that CIA can
collect, delivered with honesty and integrity. And that is
what I intend to do..........................................
Senator King. In order to effectuate that I hope that you will
provide strong support to the ombudsman program, to the
analytical integrity program that is ongoing so that the
commitment you have from the President extends throughout the
Agency.......................................................
To followup, in your memoir in 2019 you said that your greatest
professional regret was your failure to effectively
communicate your concerns prior to the 2003 invasion of Iraq.
It seems to me that is an example of what exactly we are
talking about................................................
Share that experience, if you will.............................
Ambassador Burns. Sure. Well, first, Senator, I do agree with
you on the important role that the ombudsman plays. And if I
am confirmed as Director, I will do everything I can to
defend and strengthen that role because it does give analysts
an opportunity if they have concerns about pressures or
politicization to raise them as well.........................
I tried to write honestly in the memoir that I published a
couple of years ago about my experience when I was serving as
the head of the Near East Bureau in the State Department for
Colin Powell, a leader for whom I have enormous respect, in
the run-up to the Iraq War. And what I tried to do along with
my colleagues was to be honest about concerns that we had
about how complicated the day-after in Iraq would be, even if
the U.S. military successfully overthrew Saddam Hussein--
which I didn't doubt would be the case.......................
A couple of colleagues of mine and I, Ryan Crocker, who later
became U.S. Ambassador in the hardest places around the
world, and David Pierce wrote a memo in the summer of 2002 to
Secretary Powell which we entitled ``The Perfect Storm.'' We
tried, imperfectly, to lay out our concerns about everything
that could go wrong in the run-up to the war in Iraq and on
the days after...............................................
It was imperfect. We got it about half right and half wrong in
terms of many of the problems we tried to identify. But I
mention it only because it was an honest effort to express
our concerns. And I think that is what is incumbent--whether
you are in a policymaking role as I was then at the State
Department or in a senior intelligence role--is to be
straightforward about your concerns, because without that,
policy choices suffer........................................
Senator King. Exactly. Thank you. Well thank you Mr. Ambassador
and I also will join my colleagues. I look forward to working
with you. The relationship with this Committee is very
important because, separately from all other agencies, most
other agencies in the U.S. Government, nobody is watching the
CIA except us; and therefore, you have got to be as open as
possible with us so that we can meet our responsibility to
the American people to be sure that this secret
organization--which is sort of an anomaly in a democracy--is
being overseen and supervised by elected representatives. So
I look forward to working with you...........................
Thank you Mr. Chairman. I yield back...........................
Ambassador Burns. I do, too, Senator King......................
Chairman Warner. I just want to make clear for Members, the
procedures we are operating with today I know it's a little
different than the past. We are doing questions in order of
seniority among those present when the hearing was gaveled to
order........................................................
Senator Cornyn?................................................
Senator Cornyn. Mr. Ambassador, thank you for saying yes to
President Biden and congratulations. And again, thank you for
assuming this important role. I can't think of anybody that
has the breadth of experience that you have had in the world,
which leads me just to--I am just kind of curious. I know you
have been exposed to a lot of foreign intelligence services
over your 34 years or so in the Foreign Service..............
Are there other intelligence services around the world--any of
them that sort of stand out as having what you believe would
be commendable organizations or operations or structures that
are something the U.S. Government ought to consider in terms
of structuring, organizing, or operating our intelligence
services?....................................................
Ambassador Burns. Well, I think there are a number of
intelligence services, especially amongst our allies and
partners, that I've admired over the years. Again, I've been
looking at it from the perspective of a diplomat. Certainly,
British intelligence service, the French, some of our closest
European allies, I think, are first rate partners............
Certainly the Israeli intelligence services I've known over the
years are extremely capable and have also, I think, worked
hard on the technology issue that we were discussing before,
which is extremely important.................................
We've also had intelligence services who are close partners in
the war on terrorism over the last 20 years, whose
capabilities, I think, at least in my experience, have been
enhanced over recent years, sometimes because of the
cooperation with U.S. intelligence services. And that's going
to be extremely important moving forward.....................
So, I think there's something we could learn from those
intelligence services. And we also have to pay very careful
attention to the capabilities of our adversaries as well,
whether it's the Russian intelligence services, which I've
had experience with over the years, or Chinese intelligence
services, as well............................................
It's important not to underestimate them. They're putting a
great deal of effort into technological development and we
see that on the part of smaller adversarial intelligence
services, whether it's the Iranians or others as well. So,
it's important not to underestimate their capabilities--and
learn where we can...........................................
Senator Cornyn. On another topic, one of the things we learned
from this pandemic is our vulnerability to supply chains from
overseas. And I think you and I may have talked a little bit
about my interest--and Chairman Warner and actually Senator
Cotton and the whole Congress, really, now--in reassuring our
ability to manufacture the most sophisticated semiconductors.
China, I understand, is building about 16 fabs, while the
Taiwan semiconductor is planning on building one in Arizona.
But we need to approach, I think, some of these national
security challenges we have with China in a different way....
What I mean by that is, we're so ossified and stove-piped here
in Congress in terms of the way we do things. Let's say the
appropriations process came to providing some sort of
financial incentive for the development of some technology
like--well, like a semiconductor fab. That doesn't quite fit
very well into our structure of appropriations and budget
caps and subcommittee appropriations and the like............
But I wish you would work with us and give some thought, not
only to what those vulnerabilities are and how we rack them
and stack them and address them in terms of the priorities
and the vulnerability that currently exists, but help us find
ways to perhaps modify, change, reform, or just adapt to the
new competition we have with China, where they're investing
billions of dollars in everything from 5G to AI to quantum
computing and others. And we can't afford to let them win....
Will you commit to working with us on the challenge?...........
Ambassador Burns. I certainly will, Senator. And I do admire
the work that you and Senator Cotton and others have done
over the course of recent months and years to highlight that
problem, supply chain vulnerability..........................
Semiconductors, as you mentioned, is a classic illustration of
that as well. And not only do I look forward to working with
you on those issues, but I promise it'll be high priority at
CIA if I'm confirmed, to understand from the perspective we
bring from abroad the ways in which some of our adversaries
and rivals can take advantage of those vulnerabilities. And
then, through intelligence partnerships with some of our
allies and partners, to look at ways in which we can
coordinate efforts to shore up supply chains as well because
it's not a vulnerability that's unique to the United States,
as you well know, Senator. So, I'll look forward very much to
working with you on that.....................................
Senator Cornyn. If the Chairman will indulge me and let me just
ask one final question.......................................
Chairman Warner. A short question because----..................
Senator Cornyn. On nuclear proliferation.......................
Ambassador Burns. Yes, Sir.....................................
Senator Cornyn. Do you think Iran can ever be trusted with a
nuclear weapon?..............................................
Ambassador Burns. No, Sir. No, I think it's absolutely
important for the United States to continue to do everything
we can to prevent Iran from developing a nuclear weapon......
Senator Cornyn. Thank you very much............................
Chairman Warner. Senator Bennet................................
Senator Bennet. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Ambassador,
for your willingness to serve. We are very, very grateful
that you're coming back......................................
You had mentioned that enhanced competition with an
increasingly threatening Chinese Communist Party constitutes
one of our greatest long-term challenges. As Chairman Warner
said, the Committee has been closely tracking China's
assertive moves from aggressive investments in port
infrastructure on some of the world's most strategic coasts
to exportation of illiberal surveillance regimes to
investments intended to put our advantages in space at risk..
In addition to China, you listed off, I think, nuclear
proliferation, climate, global health, technology as things
where we need a long-term--you said, I think, a long-term,
clear-eyed approach. And you have worked in these--in
countries with authoritarian regimes. We obviously are a
democracy....................................................
It was a poignant, I think, to see those two luminaries
introduce you this morning as a reminder of the time when
people actually could find a way to work together in this
democracy. And I wanted to ask you your thoughts about how
you, as the Director of the CIA, could elevate the view a
little bit here to make sure that we're looking out 10 years
and 20 years instead of just between the commercial breaks on
the cable television at night................................
How do we, as a democracy, competing in a world with
totalitarian societies, seize an opportunity here to actually
compete and win and succeed? I'd just be interested in your
perspective about how--......................................
Ambassador Burns. Sure.........................................
Senator Bennet. How you can help us elevate our view?..........
Ambassador Burns. Well, Senator, first, I think it is important
to approach all of those formidable challenges you just
described with a sense of confidence because, while I
recognize that the international landscape is changing fast,
we're in a period of profound transformation.................
The United States may no longer be the singular dominant player
we were when I worked for Secretary Baker 30 years ago. But I
would still argue we have a better hand to play than any of
our major rivals. And that's because of our capacity for
domestic renewal which I know has been tested in recent
years. But it's hugely important and it sets us apart from
authoritarian regimes around the world.......................
And second is our capacity to draw on allies and partners,
which also sets us apart from lonelier powers like China and
Russia today. The second thing I'd stress, just to pick up
your point, is it is important--as pressing as immediate
crises and immediate threats always are at the CIA or
anywhere else in the U.S. Government--you have to be able to
look over the horizon a little bit. You mentioned one very
good example of that which is space, which I know is
something you been very much focused on......................
Here is an area in which our adversaries are working overtime
to try to develop their capabilities which can threaten
American critical infrastructure and lots of other things
that are important to us. It's also an area where there are
really no international rules of the road right now, whether
it's in terms of commerce or security or anything else.......
And so, I think it's incumbent upon CIA to focus on issues like
that, to be able to highlight the threat that's growing for
American interests. And then to try to think creatively in
support of policymakers about, you know, how you anticipate
those threats and begin today to plan for the best ways to
deal with them...............................................
Senator Bennet. We look forward to working with you on all of
that, I think. As you write in your book, that period of time
that Baker represents was a time when we were in the Cold War
and we had an organizing principle of some kind--which didn't
mean that we made--didn't make--mistakes. We made mistakes
all the time but we had an organizing principle. And I think
we lost that at the end of the Cold War in some respects,
that organizing principle. And then 9/11 happened and
disoriented us...............................................
And I think really this moment is an opportunity to reintroduce
our values to the rest of the world and do it, as you say,
with a sense of optimism. You know, we should have a sense of
optimism. A lot of countries that you've served in have had
some version of January 6th happen to them. But what they
don't have is what happened on January 20th here, which was
the peaceful transfer of power. And I think that that should
give us some confidence going forward. I hope it gives you
confidence...................................................
Ambassador Burns. I agree. Absolutely, Senator, I think we
ought to approach, however formidable the challenges are, we
ought to approach them with a sense of confidence and
optimism. That's what, in my long experience serving overseas
for the U.S. Government, whether people like our policies or
hate them. What they expect from Americans is problem-
solving, a sense of possibility, a sense of optimism.........
That's what they admire most about our society when it's
operating at its best, and that's what they hope to see from
American leadership in the world. It is just as you said,
Senator: we don't always get it right. We don't have a
monopoly on wisdom. But we ought not to underestimate that
core strength that American society has and brings to the
world........................................................
Senator Bennet. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Mr.
Ambassador...................................................
Chairman Warner. Senator Sasse?................................
Senator Sasse. Thank you, Chairman. Ambassador,
congratulations..............................................
Ambassador Burns. Hi, Senator..................................
Senator Sasse. Thank you for the time you spent with us in the
run-up to this. And I'll just say this Committee, as is well-
known to the Members and to you, is different than most
committees on the Hill. And it's I think usually because we
don't have cameras. Usually people don't have any incentive
to make grandstanding speeches. And this Committee works a
lot better than most.........................................
But I also just want to commend you on the substance of your
opening statement. Confirmation hearings are usually an
exercise in defense where people don't want to say anything
that could get them in trouble if they look likely to be
confirmed, and you actually said a ton of substantive things.
I also think your answers to Senator Rubio about CCP
influence operations were meaty, so thank you for that.......
So, this is not a hostile question at all. It's genuinely a
sympathetic question to your nomination. But you said in your
opening statement that I think the biggest for priorities
that you have are China, tech, human capital, and--I forget
the term you used. I wrote down ``alliances.''...............
Ambassador Burns. Partnerships, yes............................
Senator Sasse. Personnel and partnerships. I think that's
exactly the right issues that for our IC. I think that's the
right set, and I think it's the right order. So, first of
all, congratulations on having a substantive view of the
important calling that you face..............................
It's not bad that we've had to go through an evolution as a
Nation on our China policy, because everybody in a bipartisan
way 20 years ago had a very different view about how things
might work out with the Chinese leadership. Obviously, that
hasn't happened..............................................
Could you walk us through a little bit of your evolution,
because you had different positions in, say, 2013. I think I
detect even an evolution from your ``Atlantic'' piece, which
I read last June/July, to your really meaty stuff today. So,
not a hostile question, but walk us through your evolution in
the last two or three years of how you think about the CCP...
Ambassador Burns. Well, thanks, Senator, very much. You know, I
think the truth is that Xi Jinping's China--I mentioned the
term ``wake-up call'' earlier in response to SolarWinds--but
I think the evolution of Xi Jinping's China over the last six
or seven years has been a very sharp wake-up call in a lot of
ways, the kind of aggressive, undisguised ambition and
assertiveness that I think has made very clear the nature of
the adversary and rival that we face today...................
And I think that's been true across partisan lines, not just in
the Congress, but across our society. And the challenge,
therefore, is how do you build a long-term--and I would
emphasize the term ``long-term'' because we have to buckle up
for the long haul, I think, in competition with China. This
is not like the competition with the Soviet Union and the
Cold War, which was primarily in security and ideological
terms........................................................
This is an adversary that is extraordinarily ambitious in
technology and capable in economic terms, as well. And so,
it's buckling up for the long term and developing a very
clear-eyed bipartisan strategy, which I think is entirely
possible right now...........................................
My role, if I'm confirmed as Director of CIA, will be to try to
ensure not only that we approach this issue with urgency and
with a very sharp focus, expand our capabilities over the
next couple of years, but then deliver the best possible
intelligence about the nature of Chinese intentions and
capabilities. That's the only way we'll be able to sustain
that kind of long-term strategy..............................
And then the only other thing I'd say, Senator, as we discussed
before, a critical part of that is going to be working with
allies and partners, because that's where Xi Jinping's China
and its wolf-warrior diplomacy has actually created
opportunities for us. Because it's helped open the eyes of
lots of partners and allies, not just across Asia but in
other parts of the world, to the nature of that threat as
well. And we need to try to take advantage of that, both in
intelligence partnerships and then obviously more broadly in
terms of diplomacy...........................................
Senator Sasse. I want to transition a little bit to your
bureaucratic challenges in trying to reorient the Agency's
budget and personnel to the challenges of today, not the
challenges of the post-9/11 moment. If we had a lot more
time, though, I would also want to drill down a little bit,
and I may do that in private in a followup to this during our
classified time today. But a lot of us are very worried about
Secretary Kerry's undefined role, because Chairman Xi Jinping
is going to lie about what they will do on climate. Like,
that's not an open question. He's going to lie...............
And so, it means if we have all these real technological race
challenges between the CCP and freedom-loving Nations, the
set of whatever the new NATO for the digital revolution is,
the Trans Pacific Partnership plus technology standards--
whatever that thing is, if we take the pressure off in the
alliance that we're going to build because there's some
climate summit going to happen in 18 or 24 months where he's
going to promise a bunch of pie-in-the-sky, then everything
we're saying ends up being a house of cards. So, a lot of us
are worried about the climate lies that are going to come
from China as a way around this..............................
But I would like to ask you, in the post-9/11 moment, it was
right for us to be focused on the global CT threat and the
spread of jihadism. That's not the biggest challenge we face
right now, and yet most of our IC budget and personnel still
has these lingering effects of 2002, 2004, 2006, 2008, and
2010. How are you going to make sure that the pivot toward
the Pacific is really operative in budget and personnel
decisions under your leadership?.............................
Ambassador Burns. Well, thanks, Senator. I look forward to a
longer conversation with you on both of the subjects.........
Briefly on climate, I just think it's important for the United
States to view cooperation with China on climate issues is
not a favor to the United States. It's in the self-interest
of China to do that. So, in other words, it's not something
to be traded. It's in the self-interest of China as well to
work on these issues. And it's important for us to be clear
eyed about that, as I'm sure the President and Secretary
Kerry will be................................................
On the wider question that you raised, I don't have a neat
formula to offer to you about the balance between what is a
continuing threat posed by terrorists groups, even though
we're almost 20 years after 9/11, and what are clearly huge
emerging challenges, particularly China, but all the other
ones that you mentioned. So, it's going to be critical for
the Agency to adapt in terms of resources, in terms of focus,
and everything else..........................................
I don't have a neat formula to offer to you today, but I look
forward very much to working with you on that because that
adaptation inevitably is going to require prioritizing
amongst resources and people.................................
Senator Sasse. Thank you. I know the Chairman is going to take
my mic, so I won't ask the question here but I'll just flag
that I'm going to followup with you as well about the
Historical Advisory Program..................................
Your memoir shows the importance of declassifying records. We
need to protect sources and methods wherever we can. We must.
It's essential. But the inertia of motion should eventually
be to declassification for public trust and for scholarly
purposes. And I think right now the inertia inside most of
our agencies is to assume, if someone doesn't proactively
declassify, it stays classified..............................
Chairman Warner. Senator Casey?................................
Senator Sasse. And I hope you'll return it to your--to
reporting----................................................
Chairman Warner. Senator Cotton has been extraordinarily
patient when we switched the order little bit here today, so
I want to make sure I don't try his patience any further.....
Senator Casey?.................................................
Senator Casey. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Ambassador, great
to be with you...............................................
Ambassador Burns. Thank you....................................
Senator Casey. I come today to this hearing to express
gratitude for three reasons..................................
Number one is for your exemplary public service. I think that's
an understatement............................................
Number two, for your service, the service of your family
starting with your father and throughout the time that your
immediate family has served with you and provided their own
measure of service. I'm especially grateful that your father
has roots in Pennsylvania, and as I think you've told me
before specifically in Scranton, Pennsylvania, which provides
a special recognition for me.................................
But most importantly maybe for today, your recognition in your
opening statement of not only the service but the sacrifices
of the men and women of the CIA. You talked about those
personal moments that you had in front of that agency
memorial wall and knowing some of those who had lost their
lives, so I appreciate the fact that you recognize them......
I wanted to ask two questions. One is country specific and one
is more broadly about our national security threats. The
staff drafted a very good question for a new Member that I'll
use. But on China, you said it, and I'm quoting in your
opening statement, ``Out-competing China is key to our
national security.'' And I agree with that...................
Number two, when I consider the economic threats that China
poses to a state like Pennsylvania, I've often said that when
China cheats, we lose jobs in Pennsylvania. So, I guess just
in terms of the threats posed by China, I guess by way of
kind of itemization or prioritization, how do you rank them?
Technology, economic, military?..............................
How would you assess the basic threats that China poses?.......
Ambassador Burns. Well, Senator Casey, it is good to see you
again. I think as many of the Members of this Committee have
argued eloquently in public, I think technology and
competition and technology cuts right to the core of China's
capacity to compete in military terms and economic terms as
well.........................................................
So if I had to underscore the core area that's going to matter
most in terms of competition with an adversarial China, I
think it cuts right to that issue of technology as we look
out over the next decade or more.............................
Senator Casey. That is helpful and I wanted to speak more
broadly now about national security threats..................
Again, if you could just itemize--if that is possible in a
short answer. I know we don't have a lot of time, but the
major national security threats that we face. And then in
particular--and I think this is an important point that the
staff made in the materials--how should the CIA be positioned
to predict, provide a warning about, and to mitigate these
threats?.....................................................
Ambassador Burns. Well, Senator, one thing I have learned over
the years is, while it's very important to have priorities,
and I think I would put at the top of the list--as I
mentioned in my opening statement--the challenge posed by Xi
Jinping's China, by an adversarial China. It is hard for me
to see a more significant threat or challenge for the United
States as far out as I can see into the 21st century than
that one. It is the biggest geopolitical test that we face...
Having said that, you know, in the same sentence, I would not
want to give short shrift to a range of other challenges out
there. As I mentioned, Putin's Russia continues to
demonstrate that declining powers can be just as disruptive
as rising ones and can make use of asymmetrical tools,
especially cyber tools, to do that. So we can't afford to
underestimate them...........................................
The nonproliferation challenges and the other challenges posed
by Iranian behavior, for example, are hugely significant and
ones that we can't afford to ignore. Across the board,
ballistic missile development as well as subversive and
destabilizing actions in the Middle East and human rights
abuses toward its own people inside Iran as well.............
And then, as I said earlier, we have to look ahead as well to
those emerging challenges--the problems without passports
that we have to deal with that aren't confined to any one
nation-state. Whether it's issues of global health
insecurity--as you know the American people have faced in
full measure over the course of the last year; whether it's
the revolution in technology; whether it's other forms of
instability or problems, they are going to create challenges
for the United States down the road. So you know, if I had to
put one set of challenges at the top of the list, it would
certainly be China, as I mentioned before. But we just don't
have the luxury of neglecting any of those other challenges,
as well......................................................
Senator Casey. Thank you, Mr. Ambassador.......................
I look forward to supporting your confirmation.................
Ambassador Burns. Thank you, Senator...........................
Chairman Warner. Senator Cotton?...............................
Senator Cotton. Mr. Burns, welcome, thank you..................
Ambassador Burns. Thank you....................................
Senator Cotton. Congratulations on your nomination.............
Mr. Burns I want to start by adding my voice to Senator Warner
and Senator Collins concerns about the microwave attacks at
our embassies around the world. I won't belabor that. I will
just say that I share that and I appreciate your commitment
to getting to the bottom of it and taking care of anyone who
has been injured in it.......................................
Ambassador Burns. Thank you....................................
Senator Cotton. More broadly, as we discussed on the phone last
week, I have taken an interest over the years in the health
of our Special Activities Center inside the CIA specifically,
or I should say metaphorical health, in terms of the numbers
of paramilitary officers available and the workload we are
asking them to bear. But also the literal health, because
many of them do suffer the same kind of wounds that our
service members face.........................................
I just want to speak today publicly about what we discussed on
the phone. You do commit to ensuring that these officers and
their families have the very best medical care and support
available....................................................
Ambassador Burns. Absolutely, Sir. I have seen firsthand the
sacrifices that they have made, the courage they have
demonstrated, especially over the last 20 years. And so I am
absolutely committed to that.................................
Senator Cotton. And that includes continuing the work that
Director Haspel and her leadership has already started to
ensure that these officers have care that is equal to if not
better than what we already provide our service members and
veterans?....................................................
Ambassador Burns. Yes, Sir.....................................
Senator Cotton. Thank you......................................
I want to touch briefly on another point that we discussed. You
are probably aware that I briefly held Director Haines's
nomination to be Director of National Intelligence after an
answer to one of her questions had implied that she might
reconsider some actions taken on long-concluded
accountability review boards related to long-closed terrorist
detention programs...........................................
I am troubled by some media reports I have seen that suggest a
senior CIA officer who was detailed to the DNI has recently
had his portfolio reduced because of his involvement in that
program. I would just like to get your commitment that if
confirmed, you will abide by the determination of the Obama
administration not to resurrect any efforts to prosecute or
take administrative action against, or prejudice in any way
in any future promotion or selection panels, for any CIA
officer involved with those programs that were conducted
under DOJ guidance and Presidential direction................
Ambassador Burns. Yes, Senator.................................
As I mentioned earlier, you have my commitment not to take
actions against or prejudice the careers of officers who may
have worked on those programs in the past when they were
operating under Department of Justice guidelines and at the
direction of the President. Yes, Sir.........................
Senator Cotton. Thank you. We also talked in our phone call
about the importance of everything the CIA does but the
centrality of the collection of foreign intelligence; and to
put it in military terms, that collection is the main effort
at the CIA...................................................
Ambassador Burns. Yes, Sir.....................................
Senator Cotton. And that means primarily the department--or the
Directorate of Operations, but also other elements of the
Agency: in Science and Technology and the new Digital
Directorate. You agree that collection of foreign
intelligence is the main effort at the Central Intelligence
Agency?......................................................
Ambassador Burns. It is the core of CIA's mission. Analysis in
other words, what you do with that collection to put it in a
form that is going to be most useful to policymakers, is
obviously critical as well. But at the core of what the CIA
does is that foreign collection, in particular human
intelligence.................................................
Senator Cotton. And that is because the collection of foreign
intelligence, put in laymen's terms--stealing foreign
secrets--it allows those analysts to have an even richer
analysis than what they would have if they were only using
publicly-available sources, the way, say, an academic or a
think tank scholar might?....................................
Ambassador Burns. That is correct. And it does involve, as you
said, stealing secrets and doing it in a way that is superior
to what our rivals and adversaries try to do.................
Senator Cotton. Thank you......................................
We also talked about covert action. I shared my views that too
often Administrations in the past of both parties have viewed
covert action not as a supplement to policy, but as a
substitute for policy........................................
Would you agree with that assessment?..........................
Ambassador Burns. Yes, and I think it is one of the big
dangers. I haven't had a chance to be briefed in detail on
existing covert action programs, and it is something I would
look forward to talking about in closed sessions in the
future. But your point about connecting covert action
programs at the direction of the President to coherent policy
is absolutely crucial. It cannot be a substitute for sound
policy choices...............................................
Senator Cotton. It is, however, in many cases a sound
supplement to a broader foreign policy in that we should not
have a reluctance to use it [Inaudible.].....................
Ambassador Burns. Yes, Sir. As one tool in a coherent strategy
and policy. I absolutely agree with you......................
Senator Cotton. When you were out of government you said,
quote: ``It is simply impractical to think that the United
States will provide significant sanctions relief without
assurances that Iran will immediately begin negotiations on a
follow-on agreement that at least extends the timelines of
the deal and addresses issues of verification and
intercontinental ballistic missiles.''.......................
I agree........................................................
If confirmed, Mr. Burns, will you provide that same realistic
assessment to the Administration, even if it contradicts the
Administration's preferred policy approach to negotiations?..
Ambassador Burns. Yes, Sir. Senator, on Iran as well as on a
whole range of other issues, it will be my obligation if
confirmed to deliver those intelligence assessments in a
straightforward and unvarnished way..........................
Senator Cotton. Thank you, Mr. Burns. I look forward to talking
about some of these other matters later this afternoon.......
Ambassador Burns. Thank you, Sir...............................
Chairman Warner. Thank you, Senator Cotton. We now have Senator
Gillibrand on WebEx..........................................
Senator Gillibrand. Thank you, Mr. Chairman....................
Over the last year alone, according to public reports, Russia
attempted to influence the 2020 election and stoke discord in
our country; attempted to assassinate a prominent
anticorruption activist using nerve agent; and perpetrated
the SolarWinds hack, one of the largest cyber intrusions ever
that breached sensitive U.S. Government systems..............
Obviously, you have served as Ambassador to Moscow, you speak
Russian. Where do you think we should start with the Kremlin?
And if you are confirmed, what would be your approach to this
profound challenge?..........................................
Ambassador Burns. Well, Senator, it is nice to see you and I
enjoyed our conversation earlier this week...................
Certainly, I think it's a huge mistake, as I said earlier, not
to underestimate the challenge and the threat that Vladimir
Putin's Russia can pose to the United States. My own view in
the past, both serving as a policymaker and then as a private
citizen, has been there's no substitute for firmness and
consistency in dealing with Putin's Russia, and working as
closely as we can with allies and partners who share those
same concerns................................................
I know the Biden administration is soon to produce an
assessment of all of those issues that you've just mentioned,
from SolarWinds to the poisoning and then the cruel
absurdity, as the Chairman has put it, publicly of sentencing
Alexei Navalny to years in a penal colony for failing to
check in with his parole officer, when the reason he failed
to check in is that he was in a coma after an attempted
assassination attempt clearly sponsored by the Kremlin to
poison him to death..........................................
So, there's a whole range of issues on which I know this
assessment will not only provide the best intelligence that
we are capable of on exactly what happened in those
instances, but also a sense of the consequences for them as
well. And so, if I'm confirmed, I look forward very much to
participating in that effort and what flows from it in the
future.......................................................
So, the short answer, Senator, is I think there's no substitute
for firmness and consistency and being clear eyed, because
the reality is that, I think, in terms of American policy of
U.S.-Russian relations--as long as Vladimir Putin is the
leader of Russia, we're going to be operating within a pretty
narrow band of possibilities, from the very sharply
competitive to the very nastily adversarial..................
Senator Gillibrand. Yes, I think we also will have a similar
challenge with regard to China. And obviously, there is a
great deal of strategic competition with China right now, but
we also want to have some kind of engagement strategy........
Can you expand upon your views on what you would like to do to
approach China?..............................................
Ambassador Burns. Well, I think again, if I'm confirmed as the
Director of CIA, my role won't be as a policymaker anymore.
But I think the core of sound policy choices is the best
intelligence we can provide about the intentions and
capabilities of Xi Jinping's China. And that's something that
we need to develop ourselves. We need to work closely with
allies and partners who share many of those same concerns....
So, as I said earlier, Senator, I think it's absolutely
important to be quite clear-eyed about the long-term nature
of that challenge from an adversarial China under Xi
Jinping's leadership; and to help policymakers think through
the various ways in which those threats can emerge, to look
carefully at vulnerabilities whether it's in supply chains or
in other areas, and to always be mindful of the value for the
United States of working closely with allies and partners in
developing that intelligence, but also in developing and
executing smart policy.......................................
Senator Gillibrand. And your third-largest challenge, at least
for the Nation and President Biden, is Iran. And I know you
were instrumental in the negotiations under the Obama
administration...............................................
What do you think the approach will be with regard to Iran?....
Ambassador Burns. Well, I've always thought that the key to
dealing with the variety of threats that are posed by Iran
today is a comprehensive strategy, of which preventing Iran
from developing a nuclear weapon is only one part............
It has to be a strategy that pushes back against threatening
Iranian actions, whether it's developing ballistic missiles
and destabilizing its region or subverting other governments
or human rights abuses against its own people. And so, I
think in all those areas, we have to be mindful of the fact
that, even if Iran returns to full compliance with the
comprehensive nuclear agreement and the United States does as
well, as President Biden said he's prepared to do, that then
needs to be a platform.......................................
Secretary Blinken has emphasized a platform for building longer
and stronger nuclear constraints, and also for dealing with
those other areas of threatening Iranian actions that I
mentioned before. I know that's easier said than done, but
that needs to be the clear strategy, it seems to me. In my
role, if I'm confirmed, will be to help provide the best
possible intelligence as policymakers pursue that strategy...
Senator Gillibrand. Thank you, Mr. Chairman....................
Chairman Warner. Thank you, Senator Gillibrand.................
Senator Gillibrand. Thank you, Ambassador......................
Chairman Warner. Well, Ambassador Burns, you got through the
first hurdle, 15 out of 16. And if Senator Risch joins us, he
will get first crack in the closed session. The hearing will
go into recess and we will reconvene at one o'clock. We very
much appreciate your testimony...............................
Ambassador Burns. Thank you....................................
Vice Chairman Rubio. And again, echoing Senator Wyden's
comments, rarely does a nominee come before this Committee
with this much positive approval, although rarely does a
nominee also bring Jim Baker and Leon Panetta as their
introducers..................................................
So, we'll look forward to seeing you at one o'clock............
Ambassador Burns. Thank you....................................
Vice Chairman Rubio. The Committee stands in recess............
[Whereupon at 12:07 p.m. the Committee stood in recess subject
to the call of the Chairman.]................................
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