[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
VICTIMS OF VIOLENT CRIME IN MANHATTAN
=======================================================================
HEARING
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
__________
MONDAY, APRIL 17, 2023
__________
Serial No. 118-14
__________
Printed for the use of the Committee on the Judiciary
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Available via: http://judiciary.house.gov
______
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
51-906 WASHINGTON : 2023
COMMITTEE ON THE JUDICIARY
JIM JORDAN, Ohio, Chair
DARRELL ISSA, California JERROLD NADLER, New York, Ranking
KEN BUCK, Colorado Member
MATT GAETZ, Florida ZOE LOFGREN, California
MIKE JOHNSON, Louisiana SHEILA JACKSON LEE, Texas
ANDY BIGGS, Arizona STEVE COHEN, Tennessee
TOM McCLINTOCK, California HENRY C. ``HANK'' JOHNSON, Jr.,
TOM TIFFANY, Wisconsin Georgia
THOMAS MASSIE, Kentucky ADAM SCHIFF, California
CHIP ROY, Texas DAVID N. CICILLINE, Rhode Island
DAN BISHOP, North Carolina ERIC SWALWELL, California
VICTORIA SPARTZ, Indiana TED LIEU, California
SCOTT FITZGERALD, Wisconsin PRAMILA JAYAPAL, Washington
CLIFF BENTZ, Oregon J. LUIS CORREA, California
BEN CLINE, Virginia MARY GAY SCANLON, Pennsylvania
LANCE GOODEN, Texas JOE NEGUSE, Colorado
JEFF VAN DREW, New Jersey LUCY McBATH, Georgia
TROY NEHLS, Texas MADELEINE DEAN, Pennsylvania
BARRY MOORE, Alabama VERONICA ESCOBAR, Texas
KEVIN KILEY, California DEBORAH ROSS, North Carolina
HARRIET HAGEMAN, Wyoming CORI BUSH, Missouri
NATHANIEL MORAN, Texas GLENN IVEY, Maryland
LAUREL LEE, Florida
WESLEY HUNT, Texas
RUSSELL FRY, South Carolina
CHRISTOPHER HIXON, Majority Staff Director
AMY RUTKIN, Minority Staff Director & Chief of Staff
------
C O N T E N T S
----------
Monday, April 17, 2023
Page
OPENING STATEMENTS
The Honorable Jim Jordan, Chair of the Committee on the Judiciary
from the State of Ohio......................................... 1
The Honorable Jerrold Nadler, Ranking Member of the Committee on
the Judiciary from the State of New York....................... 3
WITNESSES
Jose Alba
Oral Testimony................................................. 7
Prepared Testimony............................................. 9
Jennifer Harrison, Founder, Victims Rights New York
Oral Testimony................................................. 10
Prepared Testimony............................................. 12
Madeline Brame, New York State Chair, Victims Rights Reform
Council
Oral Testimony................................................. 25
Prepared Testimony............................................. 27
The Honorable Robert F. Holden, New York City Council, District
30
Oral Testimony................................................. 28
Prepared Testimony............................................. 30
Rebecca Fischer, Executive Director, New Yorkers Against Gun
Violence
Oral Testimony................................................. 33
Prepared Testimony............................................. 35
Paul DiGiacomo, President, New York Police Detectives Endowment
Association
Oral Testimony................................................. 40
Prepared Testimony............................................. 42
Barry Borgen
Oral Testimony................................................. 44
Prepared Testimony............................................. 47
Jim Kessler, Executive Vice President for Policy, Third Way
Oral Testimony................................................. 49
Prepared Testimony............................................. 51
LETTERS, STATEMENTS, ETC. SUBMITTED FOR THE HEARING
All materials submitted for the record by the Committee on the
Judiciary are listed below..................................... 112
Materials submitted by the Honorable Sheila Jackson Lee, a Member
of the Committee on the Judiciary from the State of Texas, for
the record
A document entitled, ``Fear City: A Survival Guide for
Visitors to the City of New York,'' 1975, NYPD
An article entitled, ``3 Are Charged With Selling `Ghost
Guns,' Including Assault-Style Rifles,'' Mar. 15, 2023,
The New York Times
Materials submitted by the Honorable Andy Biggs, a Member of the
Committee on the Judiciary from the State of Arizona, for the
record
A Legal Memorandum entitled, ``The Blue City Murder
Problem,'' Nov. 4, 2022, The Heritage Foundation
An article entitled, ``27 of Top 30 Crime-Ridden Cities Run
by Democrats,'' Nov. 04, 2022, Daily Caller
A report entitled, ``Uncovering the Truth About Pennsylvania
Crime Guns,'' Brady, submitted by the Honorable Mary Gay
Scanlon, a Member of the Committee on the Judiciary from the
State of Pennsylvania, for the record
APPENDIX
Materials submitted by Madeline Brame, New York State Chair,
Victims Rights Reform Council, for the record
A letter from the New York State Commission on Judicial
Conduct, May 20, 2022
An Open Letter to Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg,
June 10, 2022
VICTIMS OF VIOLENT CRIME IN MANHATTAN
----------
Monday, April 17, 2023
House of Representatives
Committee on the Judiciary
Washington, DC
The Committee met, pursuant to notice, at 9:03 a.m., in
Conference Room A/B, 6th floor, Jacob K. Javits Federal
Building, Federal Plaza, New York, New York, Hon. Jim Jordan
[Chair of the Committee] presiding.
Present: Representatives Jordan, Issa, Gaetz, Johnson of
Louisiana, Biggs, Tiffany, Roy, Spartz, Fitzgerald, Bentz,
Cline, Gooden, Van Drew, Nehls, Moore, Kiley, Hageman, Moran,
Lee, Hunt, Fry, Nadler, Lofgren, Jackson Lee, Johnson of
Georgia, Schiff, Cicilline, Scanlon, Dean, and Ivey.
Also present: Representatives Stefanik, Goldman, and
Espaillat.
Chair Jordan. The Committee will come to order.
Without objection, the Chair is authorized to declare a
recess at any time.
The Chair now recognizes the gentlelady from Wyoming, Ms.
Hageman, to lead us in the Pledge of Allegiance.
All. I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States
of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one
Nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for
all.
Chair Jordan. The Chair would ask the press to maybe clear
out of the middle here so we can see our witnesses and proceed
with the hearing.
We welcome everyone to today's hearing on Victims of
Violent Crime in Manhattan. We are joined today by some of our
colleagues who would like to participate in the hearing. Ms.
Stefanik, Mr. Goldman, whose district we're in, and Mr.
Espaillat. Per an agreement with Mr. Nadler and without
objection, these Members will be permitted to participate in
today's hearing for only the purpose of asking questions of the
witnesses. Each side will have an additional five minutes for
these Members to question the witnesses.
The Chair now recognizes himself for an opening statement.
Mr. Gaetz. Mr. Chair, I have a unanimous consent request.
Chair Jordan. The gentleman from Florida is recognized.
Mr. Gaetz. Mr. Chair, I seek unanimous consent. I
understand Mr. Alba may be utilizing the services of an
interpreter today, and so that the interpretation time would
occur off the clock so that we might be able to ask questions
of Mr. Alba.
Chair Jordan. Without objection, so ordered.
While we're speaking of time, I know we have to be back in
the Capitol tonight for some votes. So, the Chair will probably
be pretty darn strict with the five-minute rule, but we want to
make sure all our witnesses get their full five minutes and
members get their time to question.
Today's hearing is about the administration of justice and
keeping communities safe, something that has always been a
central focus of the House Judiciary Committee. Our witnesses
today have felt the effects of crime up close and personal.
They've been victimized by a justice system that cares more
about political correctness than punishing the criminals who
have harmed them and harmed their family. We thank them for
being here and sharing their story.
Their stories are emblematic of a city that's lost its way
when it comes to fighting crime and upholding the law. As we
all know, fairness under the law is a bedrock principle of
American democracy. In this country, justice is supposed to be
blind, regardless of race, religion, or creed.
However, here in Manhattan, the scales of justice are
weighed down by politics. For the District Attorney, justice
isn't blind. It's about looking for opportunities to advance a
political agenda, a radical political agenda. Rather than
enforcing the law, the DA is using his office to do the bidding
of left-wing campaign funders. He's taken a soft-on-crime
approach to the real criminals.
One of Mr. Bragg's first actions upon taking office in
January 2022 was to put out a memo that directed his Assistant
District Attorneys not to prosecute certain crimes, including
trespassing and resisting arrest.
The memo also stated that armed robberies should not be
prosecuted as felonies. Instead, they were to be considered as
misdemeanor larceny unless someone was shot during the course
of the robbery.
Thank goodness, after a backlash from police groups and the
public, Mr. Bragg agreed to prosecute some robberies as
felonies but left the rest of the memo in place.
The president of NYPD Detectives Endowment Association
said, quote: ``Bragg gives criminals a roadmap to freedom from
prosecution and control of our streets.'' In Bragg's Manhattan,
you can resist arrest, deal drugs, obstruct arrests, and even
carry a gun to get away with it.
Guess what happened under this new policy? More crime. In
2022, Mr. Bragg's first year as District Attorney, New York
City saw a 23-percent surge in major crimes. Felony assaults
rose 13 percent. Robberies spiked 26 percent. Burglaries in New
York City went up 23 percent. Grand larcenies were up 26
percent, and auto theft increased 32 percent. Transit crime
surged nearly 30 percent. Imagine that. You leave criminals on
the street; you get more crime.
Patrick Lynch, the president of the Police Benevolent
Association, said: ``Police officers don't want to be sent out
to enforce laws that the District Attorneys won't prosecute.''
There are already too many people who believe that they can
commit crimes, resist arrest, interfere with police officers
and face zero consequences.
We should take a minute here to thank our brave men and
women in law enforcement. We got a number of them right here in
this building. Thank you for what you do.
[Applause.]
Chair Jordan. In the last few years, police have been
villainized and harassed by the left and even defunded. These
men and women put their lives on the line every day, every
single day, and they deserve our deepest gratitude. That's not
what they're getting from left-wing District Attorneys here and
around the country.
Police do their job. They do the hard work. They go out on
the streets. They catch the bad guys, and then the DAs don't do
theirs, don't do their job. Instead, they let bad guys roam the
street. As we'll hear today, repeat offenders are plaguing New
York City.
On April 6, 2023, NYPD Commissioner Sewell said:
Recidivism is the undertow pulling against everything we are
doing to keep our city safe. It is counterproductive to public
safety and, frankly, is a perpetual carousel of police
resources.
Astonishingly, Sewell said that 327 individuals were
arrested more than 6,000 times for retail theft. Think about
that: 327 individuals responsible for 6,000 retail thefts, what
we used to call stealing, taking someone else's property. Each
person arrested, on average, 20 times. Maybe they wouldn't have
had that problem if they'd arrested them and kept them in jail
after the first, the second, or maybe even the 19th time. An
average of 20 times.
Given the record level of crime we are seeing around the
country, our plan this Congress has been to include field
hearings in some of our greatest cities to analyze and
highlight how soft-on-crime policies hurt families, hurt
communities, hurt small business owners.
We believe it's important to hear from victims and their
families, who simply want to share their stories, hoping,
hoping that it will help create change so other families don't
have to suffer like they did.
What better place to start than New York City, where videos
of violent senseless attacks appear almost daily and where the
DA of Lower Manhattan earned a reputation for caring more about
the perpetrators of crime than the victims.
Thanks again to all our brave witnesses for being here, and
thanks to the NYPD, the Capitol Police, and the Federal
Protective Services for all they do to keep people safe.
I now recognize the Ranking Member, Mr. Nadler, for an
opening statement.
Mr. Nadler. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Let me be very clear. We
are here today in Lower Manhattan for one reason and one reason
only. The Chair is doing the bidding of Donald Trump. Committee
Republicans designed this hearing to intimidate and deter the
duly elected District Attorney of Manhattan from doing the work
his constituents elected him to do.
They have demanded access to the inner workings of an
ongoing criminal case, information to which they know they are
not entitled. They have subpoenaed a witness who used to work
for the District Attorney whom they know cannot answer their
questions, and they have earned a lawsuit that risks future
Congressional oversight as a result.
They have perpetuated the anti-Semitic and racist tropes
that Mr. Trump has directed at both the prosecutor and the
judge in this case. They are using their public offices and the
resources of this committee to protect their political patron,
Donald Trump. It is an outrageous abuse of power. It is, to use
the Chair's favorite term, a weaponization of the House
Judiciary Committee.
I do not know if Mr. Trump will be found guilty--
Chair Jordan. Will the gentleman suspend?
The gallery should refrain from commenting and let the
gentleman from New York finish his statement.
The gentleman is recognized.
Mr. Nadler. I do not know if Mr. Trump will be found guilty
by a jury of his peers here in New York or, for that matter, in
Georgia or in Washington, DC, on charges that may follow, but I
do know that he will have his day in court.
Using this Committee to undermine that process as it
unfolds is cynical, unethical and, given the violence unleashed
on the Capitol by the former President, just plain dangerous.
Now, we all grieve for the victims of violent crime, here
in Manhattan and everywhere. It is shameful that the
Republicans of this Committee would use the pretext of violent
crime as an excuse to play tourist in New York and bully the
District Attorney. It is particularly disgraceful that they
would use this pretext after doing nothing--nothing--to stop
the gun violence that terrorizes our Nation.
According to the Gun Violence Archive, there have been at
least 146 mass shootings this year alone. That means there have
been more mass shootings than days so far this year. Three
people were shot dead, and five others injured at Michigan
State University. Three children and three teachers were shot
and killed at a private school in Nashville, Tennessee. Five
people are dead and eight others, including two police
officers, are injured after a mass shooting at a bank in
Louisville, Kentucky.
These tragedies have taken place in nearly every corner of
our Nation, although I note in a study by Everytown that, in
States where elected officials have taken action to pass gun
safety laws, dramatically fewer people die by gun violence.
Although there has not, thank God, been a recent mass
shooting here in Manhattan, you must do more to stem the Iron
Pipeline, the illicit flow of illegal firearms from States that
do less to protect their citizens to New York and elsewhere.
Unlike our Republican colleagues, Democrats have
consistently advanced policies to make all our communities,
including New York, safer places to live, to work, to worship,
and to go to school.
Last Congress, over the objection of every Republican here
today, we passed the first gun violence prevention package in
decades. We can and must do more. We must pass universal
background checks. We must implement red flag laws to keep guns
away from those who are a danger to themselves and others, and
we must reinstate the assault weapons ban. Each of these
proposals are overwhelmingly popular with the American public,
and each is opposed by House Republicans.
We also advanced the VICTIM Act to provide funding to law
enforcement to improve murder clearance rates. If my Republican
colleagues were serious about violent crime and sincere in
their efforts to law enforcement, they would have joined us in
that effort. One hundred and seventy-eight Republicans opposed
that measure last Congress on the House floor.
We supported legislation to improve policing through
additional funding, better training, and accountability to
strengthen public trust because we know that public safety
requires law enforcement agencies and their community partners
working together. Again, every Republican on the Committee
stood opposed.
Here in New York, one of the largest and most complex
cities in the world, local leaders have pursued violence
intervention, diversion programs, targeted law enforcement and
youth engagement programs that have pushed crime and
incarceration to their lowest levels in decades.
Over the past year, under the leadership of Mayor Adams and
District Attorney Bragg, crime in Manhattan has dropped in
every major category, including murders down 14 percent,
shootings down 17 percent, burglaries down 21 percent, and
robberies down eight percent, all in one year. Compare that to
Mr. Jordan's Ohio, where the homicide rate is 73 percent higher
than in Manhattan.
On the specific topic of gun violence, the District
Attorney is to be commended for securing indictments against
gun traffickers, ghost gun manufacturers, and other violent
criminals, leading to a full 20-percent reduction in shootings
last year.
The Chair says this hearing is about violent crime in
Manhattan, but New York remains one of the safest big cities in
America. I am sure my colleagues have talking points and
anecdotes to the contrary, but the evidence is firmly on our
side. The evidence shows, unfortunately, that the Chair could
have held this hearing back in Washington or in Ohio or in any
other jurisdiction where the numbers are trending in the wrong
direction, but, instead, he rushed to hold a hearing here in
Manhattan in defense of Donald Trump.
I understand that, in the days leading up to this hearing,
Republican Members were instructed not to speak about Mr. Trump
during these proceedings. Don't take the bait, they were
warned, as if we cannot draw a straight line from the Chair's
attacks on the District Attorney in the wake of the indictment
to his attacks on the District Attorney here today. We know
better. We all know better. The New Yorkers gathered outside of
this building certainly know better.
You can pretend that you aren't here on Donald Trump's
behalf, but you cannot stop the New York criminal justice
system from running its course, and you will not intimidate New
Yorkers with your brief visit to this city.
I thank the Chair and I yield back.
Chair Jordan. I thank the gentleman for his statement.
Now, without objection, all other opening statements will
be included in the record.
We will now introduce today's witnesses.
Mr. Jose Alba. Mr. Alba was forced to defend himself while
working at a bodega. He was attacked by a repeat criminal, who
was on parole for assaulting a police officer. During the
attack, Mr. Alba was stabbed and defended himself with a knife.
Despite surveillance video showing that he acted in self-
defense, Alba was arrested and charged with murder. These
charges were later dropped after public outrage, including from
Mayor Adams and former NYPD Commissioner Bill Bratton.
Thank you, Mr. Alba, for being here.
Ms. Jennifer Harrison. Ms. Harrison is the founder of
Victims Rights New York, an organization that advocates on
behalf of victims and survivors of homicide victims. Ms.
Harrison's boyfriend was killed in 2005.
We've heard you talk about this, Ms. Harrison. We
appreciate you being here.
Two of the assailants were allowed to walk free while the
third spent only a few years in jail.
Mr. Jim Kessler. Mr. Kessler is the Executive Vice
President for Policy and Cofounder of the Third Way. He
previously served as Legislative and Policy Director to Senator
Schumer.
Ms. Madeline Brame. Ms. Brame is the New York State Chair
of the Victims Rights Reform Council. The Victims Rights Reform
Council was formed to provide a voice and advocate for victims
of crime. Ms. Brame's son, Sergeant Hason Correa, was murdered
in 2018 by four assailants. Sergeant Correa's father was also
stabbed during the attack.
Ms. Brame, we're sorry for your loss. Thank you as well for
being here.
The Honorable Robert F. Holden. Councilman Holden
represents District 30 on the New York City Council. He co-
leads the Common Sense Caucus with Councilman Joe Borrelli. He
previously was a member of the Community Board 5, Queens, for
30 years, served as first Chair for seven years, and served as
Chair of the board's Public Safety Committee for 13 years.
Mr. Holden, thank you for being here and for your public
safety.
Ms. Rebecca Fischer. Ms. Fischer is the Executive Director
of New Yorkers Against Gun Violence. Her organization seeks to
inform the public, particularly youth, about the dangers of gun
violence and ways to prevent and reduce gun violence.
Mr. Paul DiGiacomo is the President of New York Police
Detectives Endowment Association. The association represents
20,000 active and retired New York City detectives. Mr.
DiGiacomo served with NYPD for 40 years.
Thank you.
Mr. Barry Borgen. Mr. Borgen's son was the victim of a
violent crime who was targeted because of his faith, his Jewish
faith. While walking near a pro-Israel rally, Mr. Borgen's son
was attacked and beaten by at least four men. They said all
kinds of terrible things, sprayed mace in his face.
Mr. Borgen, we're sorry for that, what happened to your
son. Thank you for being here today.
We welcome all witnesses, thank them for appearing today.
You will each be given five minutes. The clock there, when it
gets to the yellow, that means it's kind of close. Like I said
before, we'll try to be pretty strict on the time. Again, thank
you all for being here.
Mr. Alba, you are up first. We got to swear you in. I
forgot about that.
Would you all please stand and raise your right hand.
Do you swear or affirm, under penalty of perjury, that the
testimony you are about to give is true and correct, to the
best of your knowledge, information, and belief, so help you
God?
Chair Jordan. Let the record reflect the witnesses have all
answered in the affirmative.
Thank you. Please be seated. Please know that your written
testimony will be entered into the record in its entirety.
Accordingly, we ask that you summarize, as I said before, your
testimony in five minutes.
Mr. Alba, you may begin.
STATEMENT OF JOSE ALBA
Mr. Ansari. Representative Jordan, my name is Imran Ansari.
I'm an attorney. I'm a partner with the law firm Aidala Bertuna
& Kamins. I am Mr. Alba's attorney. I'm going to be delivering
an opening statement on Mr. Alba's behalf before the testimony
begins.
Chair Jordan. Thank you.
Mr. Ansari. This is an opening statement from Mr. Alba, so
I am just the vehicle and his mouthpiece right now.
First, I want to make this clear. My testimony--
Chair Jordan. Could you pull that mike really close there,
sir. It's on, I think. Just pull it down right in front.
Mr. Ansari. So, again, Imran Ansari. I'm sorry. On behalf
on behalf of my client, Mr. Alba, I deliver his opening
statement.
First, I want to make this clear. My testimony is not
motivated by a political agenda. I am not here to support or
side with any particular political party. I am not here because
I am supporting Republicans. I am not here because I want to
criticize the Democrats.
I just want to tell the public about the horrible
experience I had to go through because of crime in this city,
an experience that has changed my life and that I will never
forget.
On July 1, 2022, I went to work at the bodega just like any
other day. I took pride in the hard work I put in every day at
the store to earn my own money and support myself and my
family.
That is when I encountered a true and real threat to my
life. After I simply told a woman that she could not have
potato chips because her payment was declined, I was face to
face with her boyfriend, who seemed ready to kill me. He
attacked me violently, threw me around the store. The woman
stabbed me herself. I truly believed they were there to kill
me.
So, faced with this, I did what I knew I had to do to save
my life, what the law allows me to do to save my life. I
stabbed that man in self-defense. When the police came, even
though I was injured myself, I was placed under arrest. I was
taken to jail.
When I came before the judge, the prosecutor said I was
being charged with murder in the second degree. They asked for
bail even though so many people are being let go these days,
and I couldn't afford it.
So, I went to Rikers Island. I was forced into a crowded
and unsafe intake cell. Even though I was injured, in jail I
didn't get the medical treatment I should have received. I
spent almost a week in Rikers Island before bail was lowered
and I could be released. I was forced to endure the harsh
conditions on Rikers Island as an innocent man.
I still don't know why I was charged with murder. I believe
that law enforcement and the DA's office didn't investigate the
case fully. They rushed to judgment, and I suffered because of
it. Even though the charges were ultimately dropped, they
should not have been brought against me to begin with.
I am now traumatized from the incident. I am not working
because I am terrified for my life that someone in the gang
will come after me for revenge. I was injured physically and
mentally because of the incident and my unlawful arrest and
incarceration.
My story is one that should not happen again. Crime does
not discriminate on the basis of a political party. It needs to
be addressed by law enforcement on the street and by
prosecutors in the court, but it has to be aimed at the people
committing crime, not an innocent man like me.
The next time an innocent man does nothing but protect
their own life in self-defense from a violent attack, they
should not be made the villain but, instead, treated with care
and compassion as the victim.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Alba follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Chair Jordan. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Alba. Thank you.
Thank you so much.
Ms. Harrison, you are recognized for your five minutes.
STATEMENT OF JENNIFER HARRISON
Ms. Harrison. Good morning and thank you for the
opportunity to speak today. My name is Jennifer Harrison. I am
the founder of Victims Rights New York.
Sadly, I was thrown into this world and forced to become an
expert on the issues we are here to discuss when, on January
15, 2005, both my boyfriend and his best friend were murdered.
Three brothers were arrested and charged, but justice was not
served as two of these brothers, both who had records, were
freed in a sweetheart deal. Ultimately, only one person served
just 9\1/2\ years for killing two people.
Through that horrible experience, I connected with support
groups on both the national and local level. I became an
advocate against some of the atrocities I witnessed and tried
to help other survivors of homicide victims connect with the
resources they need to navigate through this endless nightmare.
I have been doing so for over 18 years.
I became more politically involved and got louder in 2017,
when I learned of bail reform and other dangerous and deadly
so-called social justice reforms. Nobody wanted to listen to
us, though, the victims that have to live with the consequences
of these decisions for the rest of our lives, when we warned of
the harm that this would cause.
Victims have no voice in politics or government, so I want
to thank this Committee from the very bottom of my heart for
giving victims that voice today. There is a depraved
indifference toward human life sweeping across our country,
even among elected officials. Normally, the criminals exude
this depravity, yet here we have the one that is supposed to
prosecute them as the one showing it.
I would also like to say that, if Alvin Bragg was doing his
job, none of us would be here today to talk. We are not
politicizing our issues or our loss. From day one, Manhattan
District Attorney Alvin Bragg announced he would not prosecute
even very violent crimes in his now infamous memo.
We saw an immediate result. Two police officers were shot
and killed, a 19-year-old girl was murdered while working at
Burger King, and multiple police officers were shot in separate
incidents.
Things have not gotten better, only progressively worse.
Bragg's office has downgraded 52 percent of felonies. Even when
his office does decide to prosecute a case, they only have
about a 50 percent conviction rate. No one is safer, as he
promised, as a result of his delusion or diversions.
During Bragg's first year in office in 2002, the crime
index went up 25.57 percent borough-wide, violent crime up
11.73 percent, and in Manhattan South one precinct alone
murders were up 40 percent.
You will hear many horrible stories today. We read about
them almost daily, like Madeline Brame and Jose Alba, whose
testimonies will speak for themselves.
I am here today on behalf of the many other victims that
reach out to me and are afraid to speak out, who are completely
distraught with the way they have been or are being treated by
the career public defenders in Bragg's office. They are being
told the office does not have the resources to prosecute their
case.
We have heard nothing about murdered victims Krystal Baron
Nieves, Michelle Go, Christina Lee, or how their cases are
being handled. Christina Lee was brutally murdered by a
mentally ill homeless man who was supposed to be under
supervised release in a shelter run by a nonprofit. Who was
supervising this emotionally disturbed man? How did this
happen?
The Manhattan DA's Office has the authority and the duty to
investigate and indict or make recommendations in situations
like this that will keep New Yorkers safe and prevent it from
happening again. Yet, none of that has been done. Does Bragg's
office not have the resources for this either?
I have heard from victims of domestic violence and hate
crimes that have not been charged who are also unable to get
the support services they are not only entitled to but that the
Manhattan DA's Office receives Federal and State funding to
provide. Why are they not providing these services efficiently?
Over 65 Assistant District Attorneys left the office in the
first half of 2022. Most were experienced veteran prosecutors
that cannot be replaced. Only a select few are left in that
office to fight for victims. What resources is Alvin Bragg
using to replace those that left instead of using their exit as
a scapegoat for not prosecuting cases?
It is a very scary time to be here. God forbid you or your
family are victimized. Who do you have to fight for you? No
one. Alvin Bragg has given excuse after excuse to not prosecute
violent crimes, forsaking not only the distraught and forever-
changed victims, but the entire justice system.
We have no recourse when our rights are violated. We cannot
file for prosecutorial misconduct, only the criminals can, even
when they violate our fundamental rights to life, liberty, and
the pursuit of happiness.
Alvin Bragg's dereliction of duty and malfeasance has
caused tremendous harm. In our newfound progressive society,
all the compassion and empathy are placed with those
intentionally inflicting harm on others and not with the
innocent casualty, the victim.
So, again, I thank you for giving victims a voice today and
for allowing us to shed some light on what is happening here,
in hopes that it will change everywhere.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Harrison follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Chair Jordan. Thank you, Ms. Harrison.
Ms. Brame, you are recognized for five minutes.
STATEMENT OF MADELINE BRAME
Ms. Brame. Thank you. Good morning. My name is Madeline
Brame. I am the chairwoman of Victims Rights Reform Council.
I'm also the mother of a homicide victim. My son, Sergeant
Hason Correa, Afghanistan war retired veteran, was killed in
Harlem in 2018. Hason was kicked, punched, stomped, and stabbed
nine times by four individuals he did not know, nor had he done
them any harm.
All four of these individuals were apprehended and all four
charged with first-degree gang assault and second-degree
murder. This case just resolved this year. So, this case drug
on through the Manhattan criminal court system for 4\1/2\
years.
When Alvin Bragg came into office, he was handed a strong
trial-ready murder case and gang assault case against all four
of these individuals, where this brutal, savage homicide was
captured on video. He was handed a strong trial-ready case,
ready to go to trial.
As soon as he took office, the case immediately began to
unravel. He dismissed--completely dismissed--gang assault and
murder indictments against two of the defendants clearly on
video participating in the brutal, savage slaughter of my son.
Mary Saunders, the sister involved in the homicide, he
dismissed her indictment and recharged her with assault with a
shoe and sentenced her to one year time served.
Travis Stewart, dismissed his gang assault and murder
indictment and sentenced him to attempted gang assault. He pled
guilty and sentenced him to seven years. Travis will be out in
the next 18 months.
Mary Saunders, the savage, is currently walking the streets
of Harlem like she didn't just participate in the brutal
slaughter of another human being, home with her family, home
with her children. If that's not a threat to public safety, I
don't know what is. She's capable at any moment of snapping and
attacking someone and holding them while someone else plunges a
butcher knife into their body nine times and another person 12
times and then run away and leave their body in the street to
bleed to death.
This is the type of criminal element that we have walking
the streets of New York City on a daily basis. All types of
criminal elements, free to do what they want, when they want,
however they want, to whomever they want with no consequences,
no deterrents.
We have these anti-gang violence, these Credible Messenger,
millions and billions of our hard-earned tax dollars are going
to fund these organizations that are doing absolutely nothing
to deter this crime. They're doing absolutely nothing. I
propose not another dime of our Federal tax dollars be pumped
into these organizations until they can produce some measurable
outcomes of effectiveness of what they're doing with our tax
dollars to protect the public.
Chair Jordan. Audience, there is no audience participation.
Ms. Brame, keep going.
Ms. Brame. As far as the Manhattan District Attorney's
Office, if he's receiving one penny of Federal dollars, you
need to pull that funding until he starts doing his damn job
and prosecuting crime. I was totally disrespected. Me, my
family, my grandchildren, we were treated like garbage, like
garbage. I sat for 4\1/2\ years and saw mothers walk in and
out. We have a mother sitting here right now whose son, two
sons, one died and the other one is on a colostomy bag. This is
out of Darcel Clark's jurisdiction.
So, I'm not the only one. There are hundreds and thousands
of us. We don't give a damn about your politics. We don't care.
It could be the man from the moon who's running for President,
OK, as long as whoever's in there stands for law and order and
is going to return some civility and sanity to our city. Thank
you.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Brame follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Chair Jordan. I said it a couple times. The audience should
refrain from applause.
Ms. Brame, though, thank you for that powerful testimony.
Mr. Holden, you are now recognized for your five minutes.
STATEMENT OF THE HONORABLE ROBERT F. HOLDEN
Mr. Holden. Thank you, Chair Jordan, and thank you, madam.
Chair Jordan. Pull that close, Councilman. Pull that real
close.
Mr. Holden. I am Robert Holden, Democratic City Council
Member representing the 30th District in the borough of Queens
and a Member of the Council's Public Safety Committee. I am
here to address the lawlessness that has taken over this city
in recent years as a result of the failed progressive policies
implemented by Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg.
On his first day in office, Bragg issued a memo that would
decriminalize a broad range of offenses and reduce charges for
violent crimes. This was a signal for every criminal that it
was open season on law-abiding citizens in New York County.
These failed progressive policies reversed 30 years of law
and order delivered to the city by the hardworking men and
women of the NYPD and professional prosecutors that put
victims' rights ahead of criminals.
Under Bragg, minor crimes, such as resisting arrest,
trespassing, fare evasion, prostitution, are no longer
prosecuted, which has led to a marked increase in criminal
activity on the streets of Manhattan.
Serious offenses, such as knifepoint robbery, commercial
and residential burglaries, weapons possession, and low-level
drug dealing are being charged with lesser offenses or being
plea bargained down, resulting in shorter sentences or no jail
time at all.
Bragg's first year in office was marked by a dramatic shift
in the way his office approached criminal prosecutions. We are
feeling Bragg's soft-on-crime approach in the streets of New
York.
We have repeat offenders receiving lenient sentences and
committing multiple crimes shortly after being released. This
is happening every day. From the day he took office, it seems
Alvin Bragg's top priority was to keep criminals out of jail
and free to roam the streets.
District Attorney Bragg would be better off as a defense
attorney than a prosecutor. He downgraded over half of the
felony cases to misdemeanors and declined to prosecute 35
percent fewer felony cases compared to 2019. His office
requested bail in 20 percent fewer felony cases in 2022.
Sadly, Bragg's approach has resulted in lower conviction
rates for serious felony charges, with his office winning a
conviction rate of just 51 percent. It's miserable. Such cases
brought in 2022 down from 68 percent in 2019. Even his
misdemeanor convictions fell dramatically, from 68 percent in
2019 in his office to 29 percent under his jurisdiction in
2022.
It is important to highlight that we must compare numbers
to pre-pandemic levels about crime to get an accurate picture
of crime in Manhattan and throughout the city. Moreover, while
stats show that crime is still much higher than before the
pandemic, they do not tell the entire story. Mentally ill
homeless people verbally and physically attack people randomly
on the streets and in the subway. Pharmacies lock up their
products. The police officers also feel pressured to
undercharge perps they arrest. This is a daily reality in New
York.
To address these challenges, we need our State legislators
and district attorneys to prioritize public safety and work
together to strengthen our criminal justice system rather than
weaken it. The State legislature has failed us by passing laws
that have weakened our criminal justice system and enabled
criminals to evade justice.
Federal prosecutors could help put more career criminals
behind bars by charging the worst offenders with Federal crimes
instead of letting progressives like DA Bragg bring
prosecutions under weakened State laws. We are losing people by
the tens of thousands to safer cities and States that offer a
better quality of life.
We must take swift action to ensure the safety and well-
being of our communities. I applaud the House Judiciary
Committee for examining the failed progressive policies in New
York City and the refusal of DAs like Alvin Bragg to prosecute
serious crimes. Public safety is paramount, and the Committee
should take the appropriate action to ensure that justice is
served and our communities are protected.
Thank you for your time.
[The prepared statement of the Honorable Holden follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Chair Jordan. Thank you, Mr. Holden.
Ms. Fischer, you are recognized for five minutes. You may
begin.
STATEMENT OF REBECCA FISCHER
Ms. Fischer. Good morning, Chair Jordan, Ranking Member
Nadler, and Members of the House Judiciary Committee. My name
is Rebecca Fischer, and I am the Executive Director of New
Yorkers Against Gun Violence, the only statewide gun violence
prevention organization in New York. Thank you for the
opportunity to testify today.
As a leader of New Yorkers Against Gun Violence, I have
devoted my career to reducing gun violence in this State. I
care deeply about the safety and well-being of New Yorkers and
work day in and day out to support and uplift victims and
survivors of gun violence.
I am committed to the safety of New Yorkers, not only
because it is my job, but because I am a very proud resident of
New York City, and I am a parent raising my children here.
Our team lives and works here also, and we all work with
victims and survivors of gun violence and violence every day.
We all want our city and our State to be as safe as it can be.
We advocate for strong, sensible gun violence prevention laws
and policies, and we also have a gun violence prevention,
education, and victim service support program here in New York
City public schools.
Because New York State has strong leadership, we have some
of the strongest gun violence prevention laws and programs in
the country and some of the lowest gun death and injury rates.
New York ranks 47th lowest out of 50 States in gun violence
rates.
New Yorkers are still being killed and injured by shootings
each year, and that is because of the national gun trafficking
crisis. The national gun trafficking crisis is largely the
result of weak gun laws in other States and the fact that
Congress has not enacted Federal gun violence prevention
reforms.
Crime guns are illegally trafficked from weak gun law
States in the South along the I-95 corridor known as the Iron
Pipeline. In New York State, we are the model for the Nation on
strong gun laws because it's not easy to acquire them here
illegally. States along the Iron Pipeline have extremely weak
laws, and as a result, traffickers travel to these States to
buy guns without a background check from reckless and rogue gun
dealers. They then illegally bring them back to New York, sell
them on our streets, and then illegal guns are used in crimes.
From 2017-2021, New York City recovered and traced over
19,000 crime guns, and over 70 percent of those crime guns were
originally purchased out of State from Iron Pipeline States.
The guns are flowing into our most under-resourced
neighborhoods, disproportionately impacting Black and Brown
communities, communities that need economic investment,
affordable housing, better access to education and healthcare,
and so much more.
This is why we strongly support community-led initiatives
that are evidence-based and trauma-informed and they work, and
also have our own school education and victim support program.
Our school program, ReACTION, provides social and emotional
support to youth victims of gun violence, their families, and
their schools. We partner with community violence intervention
programs, local and national leaders and lawmakers, victim
support organizations and prosecutors and law enforcement.
The COVID-19 pandemic of 2020 caused a national surge in
gun violence across this country. However, as more resources
are put back into the community suffering the most, public
safety circumstances are improving, including in New York City
and Manhattan.
In the last 12 months, according to NYPD's own data, as of
April, shootings and murder are down in all five boroughs,
including Manhattan. Crimes unrelated to guns are also going
down in Manhattan and across the city.
Yet, there is so much more that can be done by Congress to
keep this city safe because even one victim of gun violence is
too many. Congress must close loopholes in the Federal
background check system, protect survivors of domestic
violence, pass extreme risk protection order laws, pass safe
storage laws, crack down on ghost guns, and hold rogue,
reckless gun dealers accountable.
We need more investment in community violence intervention
programs, and we need to hold the highest drivers of crime
accountable. New Yorkers and all Americans, from Buffalo, New
York, to Nashville, to last night's victims of the Dadeville,
Alabama, shooting and every place in between, deserve to go to
school, to the park, to their office, to a concert, to a
grocery store, to their houses of worship or to celebrate this
Nation's independence without the real and present danger of
gun violence. Our children and our children's children have the
right to be safe. We need Congress, we need Federal leadership
to stand up and protect us.
Thank you for inviting me to testify today, and I look
forward to your questions.
[The prepared statement of Ms. Fischer follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Chair Jordan. Thank you, Ms. Fischer.
Mr. DiGiacomo, you are recognized for five minutes. You may
begin.
STATEMENT OF PAUL DIGIACOMO
Mr. DiGiacomo. Good morning and thank you for this
opportunity to speak here today.
I just want to say that, you know, District Attorney Bragg
took an oath to uphold the law and not to downgrade crimes that
have an effect on victims of New York City.
The Detectives Endowment Association has been saying this
forthree years now, that a lot of the laws that have been
enacted here in New York City and New York State are
counterproductive to the safety of the people of New York City.
The bail reform laws. There is a direct correlation for
when the bail reform laws were enacted to day one to the uptick
in violent crimes across New York City. Shootings have
increased. Gun violence has increased. Illegal guns coming into
New York City has increased dramatically.
We talk about the seven majors, the felony crimes that are
affecting people in New York City. As important as those felony
crimes that are violating the people across this city are many
low-level crimes that are not even being addressed that affect
the victims for many, many years to come.
Sexual-related crimes on the subways and throughout the
city streets are increasing. Assaults on police officers are
increasing. I ask everyone in this room to think about your
daughter, wife, grandmother, sister, and aunt riding on a
subway train trying to get to work and being violated or
groped. Just for that poor woman to try and prosecute this
crime through the Manhattan DA's Office, and that crime is
reduced to disorderly conduct, which is no more than a traffic
ticket. That is going on every day in the Borough of Manhattan,
every single day.
It's sad, because many of the people in the Borough of
Manhattan, the ones that vote for DA Bragg, they live here.
Many people come to Manhattan every day to work. Hundreds and
thousands of people come into this city, into Manhattan to
work, and don't have the opportunity to vote for the District
Attorney. Their safety is in jeopardy because of the District
Attorney.
I add Police Officer Mora and Police Officer Rivera were
executed. Two young men were executed in the Borough of
Manhattan. I strongly believe it was because of the memos that
were put out by the District Attorney's Office that they were
not going to enforce assaults on police officers, resisting
arrest on police officers. It sent a message to the criminal
element that there are no consequences when you assault a
police officer.
Now, my concern is the safety of my detectives and the
people who we serve. It's sad what's going on in this city,
because we have to start concentrating on the victims of crime
and not the people that commit the crimes. It's very sad when
people are afraid to come out of their house at night in Upper
Manhattan or Lower Manhattan.
When defunding the police was popular, the New York City
Police Department had a Homeless Outreach Unit that was very
effective. It took these homeless people off the street, got
them food, shelter, got them the medication or the help that
they needed. Because of the defunding of the police, that unit
was disbanded. Now, when you walk through every neighborhood in
Manhattan, there are homeless everywhere, because they tied the
hands of the police.
Laws have been enacted to tie the hands of the police. Our
city council in New York City enacted a law called the
diaphragm compression bill, in which you have a noncompliant
individual fighting you and you can't put any pressure or touch
the person from the bottom of the neck to the top of the waist,
back and front. Now, I challenge anyone in this room to try and
do that. It's impossible. That law was enacted, and it's on the
books.
We also should add, back in the late 1980-early 1990, there
was a narcotics problem. They appointed a special narcotics
prosecutor. Because guns are so out of control now, we need to
enact and appoint a special firearms prosecutor, so everyone is
on the same page in prosecuting gun-related crimes.
Thank you.
[The prepared statement of Mr. DiGiacomo follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Chair Jordan. Thank you, Mr. DiGiacomo.
We now recognize Mr. Borgen for five minutes.
STATEMENT OF BARRY BORGEN
Mr. Borgen. I'd like to begin by thanking Congressman Jim
Jordan and other Members of the Committee for giving me the
opportunity to testify.
Nearly two years ago, on May 20, 2021, I received a call no
parent should ever receive. On the other line was my son
Joseph, who quickly told me he was OK, but savagely beaten out
at Times Square. He was in need of medical attention. He handed
the phone to the NYPD, who were extremely helpful and very
supportive and did the best they possibly can. I was told they
were bringing him to the emergency room in Bellevue Hospital.
Without hesitation, I made a beeline straight to Manhattan, got
in my car, and drove to Manhattan.
I got to the hospital. It was hard to believe what my son
looked like. His face was beaten. His face was sprayed with
mace. They punched him. One fellow hit him with crutches in
Times Square broad daylight, all because he was wearing a
yarmulke, going to a pro-Israel rally. I'm in New York my whole
life. I'm 57. Never had problems like this. It was just very
shocking to hear this.
It was just like horrible, horrible to my wife. My wife was
at home. She couldn't come with me. It was COVID. Only one
person could go to the hospital.
I sit in front of the Committee with the two-year
anniversary of the attack rapidly approaching and the ongoing
struggle with DA Bragg. This has been going on for two years.
They have a film of this in Black and White from people on the
street in Times Square. It's an open-and-shut case.
DA Bragg has been schlepping this case along with no
solution, offering deal after deal. One fellow, Waseem Awawdeh,
who was hitting my son with crutches, was offered a sweetheart
deal, didn't take it yet. He was let out on probation.
As he's getting out of the court, as he's getting out of
jail, the friends are dancing with him, on his shoulders: ``I
will do this again.''
He said: ``I will do this again.''
He had no qualms about doing it again, about beating up
another Jewish person.
In fact, while he was out on bail, he had an incident with
road rage with an elderly man on the street. Bragg brought him
in. Again, nothing, just: Go out and behave yourself.
This emboldens him to act, and he doesn't care. I've been
in three court hearings, and basically nothing has happened in
three court hearings here in Lower Manhattan a couple buildings
down. It's just very disheartening that I sit here today and
nothing is getting done.
My son Joseph was invited to the White House to appear in
front of Joe Biden, our President, and Kamala Harris, and so
forth. This was not a partisan issue. This was an issue where
they were beating up Asians in New York nonstop, no
repercussions, beating up Jews, pushing people in the subways,
in the tracks. No repercussions. It's hard to understand what
goes on.
Here this fellow is offered--one fellow is offered a deal,
no jail time. He only punched my son once. This is what Bragg
was offering to someone. Hit my son once. OK, one time: OK,
I'll give you a slap on the wrist. You go home and play video
games for two months.
It's just disgusting.
Now, in the last couple years since the incident happened,
my son had surgery on his wrist. He likes to play basketball.
He is very uncomfortable playing basketball, and there's some
other things. It affects his whole life. It's just a terrible,
terrible thing. He has physical therapy three days a week.
These six individuals are walking the streets, roaming around
like nothing, not a care in the world. It's almost two years.
Unfortunately, Madeline's son was four years. It's horrible.
They're pushing plea bargains back and forth. Nothing gets
done.
We have heard from--when my son got beaten up by these six
individuals, we heard from many politicians, Mayor Adams or the
candidate, Hochul, Governor Hochul.
I must take notice with Mr. Nadler. You're a Jewish New
Yorker. I called your office numerous times. I called Mr.
Schumer's office, another Jewish New Yorker, numerous times. No
one called us back. Neither one of you came out with a
statement on my son's incident. OK. You're a Jewish New Yorker.
You have Jewish roots here.
Behavior like this enables DA Bragg to just do whatever he
wants to do. If you guys would have come out with a statement
from Washington and said we condemn this beating to Mr.
Borgen's son, we condemn anti-Semitism, we condemn this act,
maybe Mr. Bragg would have taken this case a little more
seriously. I call you out on it.
Most of my friends are so disheartened with you and Mr.
Schumer, you don't understand. We wouldn't vote for Mr. Schumer
again if we stood on our head. If I lived in Manhattan, I
wouldn't vote for you either.
I will tell you something else that bothers me. Everybody
is here with gun control. Somehow the criminals can get guns,
but the average person in New York can't get a gun. I just came
back from Miami after two weeks. All my friends who moved down
there, many, many of my friends, all have gun licenses. There's
a deterrent there. If someone goes after you, there's a chance
that the person they're going to attack has a way to defend
themself.
Here in New York, we can't get guns. The criminals walk
around shooting people, get guns nonstop. It's just, it's
unbelievable. A gun charge comes to Mr. Bragg, misdemeanor, no
problem, walk the streets.
I remember Plaxico Burress, if you remember the New York
Giants, he was a wide receiver. He was in a nightclub. The
Giants were 10-1. He went to a nightclub, accidentally shot
himself with a gun. I think Robert Morgenthau was the DA at the
time. Plaxico Burress went to jail for 18 months, if you
remember. He was a football star in New York. They needed him;
they would have won the Super Bowl again.
Here in New York now, you come with a gun: OK, don't do it
again. We'll see you again.
It's just disgusting, and it's a hutzpah what goes on--it's
a Jewish word, hutzpah--what goes on in this district.
I haven't been in Manhattan for social events. I will not
come for a restaurant. I will not come for a ball game. I won't
go to a Broadway show. I will not set foot in Manhattan.
I have a friend of mine who likes to go to Broadway shows,
matinees. You know what they do now? They get a group of 30
people. They get on a bus, park in front of the theater, walk
into the theater. Don't walk around, no shopping. They then get
on a bus, go to a predetermined restaurant, and they walk out
of the restaurant, go on a bus and go home. That's the only
interaction I have in Manhattan.
I'd just like to say thank you for listening to me and I
hope some good comes from this.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Borgen follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Chair Jordan. Thank you, Mr. Borgen. Please pass along our
best to your son.
The Chair would just ask the press, you'll have plenty of
opportunity to get all the pictures, all the whatever you want,
but if you could just maybe stay back a little bit,
particularly when the witnesses are testifying, just in
appreciation of the witnesses taking time to be here, that
would be much appreciated by them.
Mr. Kessler, you are recognized for your five minutes.
STATEMENT OF JIM KESSLER
Mr. Kessler. Thank you, Chair.
Chair Jordan. Pull that mike close, Mr. Kessler.
Mr. Kessler. Thank you to Members of the Committee and to
fellow witnesses, some of whom have suffered the deepest and
most unfair personal losses. Thank you to Kylie Murdock, my
research assistant, sitting behind me.
To Members of the Committee, I've got to ask, why are we
here? Why are we in New York City? Yes, in this massive city of
8.5 million people piled atop each other on a speck of land
barely 300 miles in size, awful things happen. Awful crimes
happen. Awful losses are suffered.
As unfortunate and tragic as it is, we live in a violent
country like no other advanced Nation. The fact is that New
York City is not only safer than most large cities in America;
it is safer than most cities of any size, and, on a per capita
basis, New York City is safer than most of the States of the
Members sitting on the dais on the majority side.
In 2020, for example, New York City's murder rate was 18
percent below the national average for the entire United
States.
Mr. Chair, Ohio's murder rate was 59 percent higher than
New York City's. Louisiana's murder rate was 251 percent higher
than New York City's. The murder rate in Texas was 42 percent
higher than New York City; South Carolina, 126 percent higher;
Florida, 32 percent higher; Kentucky, 70 percent higher; North
Carolina, 57 percent higher; Indiana, 72 percent higher;
Arizona, 35 percent higher; Alabama, 119 percent higher.
A hearing about the ravages of crime could be in Alabama,
with its towering homicide rate and a mass killing that just
happened yesterday; or Louisville, where five people were
murdered in the blink of an eye at a downtown bank; or the
murder capital of California, which is not Los Angeles or San
Francisco or Oakland, but in Speaker McCarthy's district of
Kern County with its county seat of Bakersfield, and it has
been the murder capital of California for six years running.
I am focusing on the year 2020, but it's not just that one
year. It's the entire century. From 2000-2020, if New York City
was a State, its murder rate would rank smack dab in the middle
at 22nd in the Nation and be about \1/4\ the murder rate of the
entire State of Mississippi. The Borough of Manhattan is even
safer than the rest of New York City. From 2000-2020,
Manhattan's murder rate would rank 30th among the 50 States.
I need to say a word about guns and about the politics of
crime because, (a) 79 percent of homicides are by firearm; and
(b) I had both the pleasure and misfortune of working on the
Mike Dukakis for President campaign, and I know how potent and
irresistible the issue of crime is in politics.
If someone is a victim of a gun crime in New York City,
dollars to doughnuts that gun was not originally purchased in
New York State. I'll double down and bet that crime gun
originated from either Florida, Georgia, the Carolinas, or
Virginia.
There is massive gun trafficking that ferries guns from
those five Southern States with weak gun laws up I-95 to States
like New York, New Jersey, Rhode Island, Connecticut, and
Massachusetts. I know this because, in 1996, I was working for
a Brooklyn Congressman from Park Slope named Chuck Schumer, and
we FOIAed the FBI data for every gun in America that was
recovered in a crime and successfully traced.
We uncovered gun trafficking patterns all across the
Nation. Practically nothing has been done legislatively ever
since except to make it harder, much harder to get data on the
origin of crime guns.
That brings me to the politics of crime. Wouldn't it be
great if this hearing was about how illicit guns are trafficked
to places like New York City, Newark, Boston, Philly, Chicago,
and on and on, and how those guns terrorize the innocent people
living in those places and elsewhere? That's the sort of thing
Congress would do if it really cared about what was happening
with regards to crime in New York City.
Mr. Chair and Mr. Nadler, there are 8\1/2\ million people
living in New York City on this tiny plot of land. Bad things
happen here, no doubt. The miracle of New York City is how well
this enormous chunk of humanity mostly gets along and suffers
less crime than much of the Nation.
Thank you, Mr. Chair and the Committee.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Kessler follows:]
[GRAPHIC(S) NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Chair Jordan. Thank you, Mr. Kessler.
We will now proceed with five-minute questioning. We're
going to try to move through pretty quick and, like I said,
stick to the five-minutes with Members. If any of our witnesses
need a break, want a restroom break, just let us know. We'll do
that. We can maybe go one at a time and keep going, or maybe
we'll take a five-minute break. Just signal us and let us know.
The Chair now recognizes the gentlelady from Florida, Ms.
Lee.
Ms. Lee. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you to all our witnesses for being here today and
being willing to share your stories with us.
I served my community as a prosecutor and as a judge, and a
prosecutor has an absolute responsibility to work with the men
and women of law enforcement to uphold the law, to protect the
community, and to consult with crime victims and their families
to be sure that their voices are heard in our criminal courts.
When crimes aren't prosecuted and when judges are prevented
from setting appropriate bail or when violent criminals are
released out on the street and allowed to re-offend because of
reckless bail policies, the criminal justice system is failing
victims of crime.
It is not just my work as a prosecutor and as a judge that
informs me for this hearing today; I am also a mother. We need
to begin this hearing today by remembering that the victims of
these soft-on-crime policies, the victims of these reckless
bail reform policies, aren't just numbers; they are people and
lives that are forever harmed or lost. Each of them reflects a
failure in our criminal justice system.
With that, Ms. Brame, I would like to return to your story.
Would you please begin by sharing with us a little bit more
about your son?
Ms. Brame. Excuse me. Is that the way my son was murdered
or my son as a person?
Ms. Lee. As a person, please.
Ms. Brame. Sergeant Hason is the oldest of my five. He was
35 years old at the time of his death. He is a father of three
small children, Jason, Jordan, and Jailani, my three grands,
and also Hason was a husband.
He was an amazing young man. He was a personal physical
trainer at Crunch gym at the time of his murder. He was also a
full-time student at Manhattan College.
Hason was a responsible, licensed and registered gun owner,
all right? He was a good guy with a gun.
Ms. Lee. Do you believe that the criminals who murdered
your son received justice?
Ms. Brame. That the criminals who murdered him?
Ms. Lee. Uh-huh.
Ms. Brame. Absolutely not. Even the stabber, they offered
him a plea deal. Instead of the 25 to life, they gave--he
copped out to 20 years. OK?
The brother is the only--the other brother is the only one
who actually went to trial. He blew trial, he lost trial, and
he also got 20 to life. All right?
Two of the other defendants got completely away with what
they did to my son.
If you take a life, you do life, OK? There should be no
plea deals for murder. Those cases need to be brought to trial.
Ms. Lee. What about your family, Ms. Brame? Do you feel
your family was treated appropriately in the criminal justice
system?
Ms. Brame. Absolutely not. We were treated like garbage.
Ms. Lee. Tell me about that.
Ms. Brame. We got no answers. If it wasn't for my
persistence, all right, if it wasn't for my not missing one
court date, except for the one where they dropped the murder
and gang assault charge against Mary Saunders, because Alvin
Bragg's office did not inform me that they were doing that--
which is my right, to know that. I didn't get a chance to give
my victim impact statement when they sentenced her to that one
year time served. OK?
So, they treated us like garage. They didn't reveal any
information. I had to do a lot of research myself. That's one
of the reasons why I formed my Victims Rights Reform Council,
to help others and families of homicide victims, to help them
navigate that court system. Because we have no services.
There are no services in New York City for victims. If
there is, I have no idea what they are.
Ms. Lee. Thank you, ma'am.
Councilman Holden, you've called for legislation that would
give judges more discretion when setting bail conditions for
defendants who may pose a threat to public safety.
Would you tell us a bit more about your proposals and why
you believe they are important?
Mr. Holden. Well, New York State is the only State in the
Union that a judge cannot consider how dangerous the defendant
is. So, if he's committed a number of crimes before, the judge
can't consider that. The only State in the Union.
So, that's why you have repeat offenders out on the
streets. This is so ridiculous, so absurd, that a judge cannot
consider how dangerous an individual is who is arrested. That's
why people are walking.
So, we've made proposals to our State colleagues. Let's
change this. Why are we the only State in the Union that does
this? I mean, you have to question that.
Chair Jordan. The time of the gentlewoman--
Mr. Holden. Again, so many people doing this--
Chair Jordan. The time of the gentlewoman has expired.
Thank you, Mr. Holden. I'm sure you'll get more time.
Mr. Holden. OK.
Chair Jordan. The Chair now recognizes the Ranking Member
from New York, Mr. Nadler.
Mr. Nadler. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Brame, you failed to note that, as a result of DA
Bragg's prosecution, two men are currently serving life
sentences for the murder of your son.
Mr. Kessler, in your testimony, you noted that New York
City is safer than most cities and even most States in America.
The police department's own data show that, since DA Bragg took
office, shootings in Manhattan have declined by 20 percent,
homicides have declined by 16 percent, and the rates of
virtually every other type of violent crime are lower during
the first quarter this year than they were at this time last
year. In the meantime, homicide rates in places such as Ohio,
Louisiana, Texas, and Arizona are much higher than in New York.
As someone who studies crime trends, what do you think
accounts for this disparity in safety between Manhattan and
other parts of the United States?
Mr. Kessler. Thank you, Mr. Nadler.
So, I don't think any place in this country is really safe,
OK? Because we're awash in guns. New York is safer. On average,
New York City's safer than Ohio, Texas, many other places.
No. 1 is gun ownership rates, OK? So, gun ownership rates
in red States tend to be about twice the gun ownership rates in
blue States. There are other factors as well. Poverty rates
matter. Educational attainment is often a correlation with
crime.
I also think that, in certain States, cities in those
States are starved for resources, because, frankly, the
Governors don't really care about getting votes in those
States. So, I think some of the urban areas in southern States,
the amount of police that they have per capita is far less than
in places like New York City, and all the resources for schools
and after-school programs.
I think No. 1 is gun ownership rates.
Mr. Nadler. Thank you.
How does New York City's murder rate compare to the
national average?
Mr. Kessler. New York City's murder rate is 18 percent
below the national average and, I believe, has been below the
national average every single year since 2010 and, several
years before that between 2000-2010.
Mr. Nadler. How about assault?
Mr. Kessler. The assault rates are lower.
Mr. Nadler. Burglary?
Mr. Kessler. Burglary rates are lower.
Mr. Nadler. Larceny?
Mr. Kessler. Lower.
Mr. Nadler. Rape?
Mr. Kessler. Lower.
Mr. Nadler. How do the incidence of those crimes in New
York City compare to the national average?
Mr. Kessler. In all those cases, New York City's rates are
lower.
Mr. Nadler. How does New York City's murder rate compared
to Ohio?
Mr. Kessler. New York City's murder rate in 2020--oh, I
should say, Ohio's murder rate in 2020 was 59 percent higher
than New York City's.
Mr. Nadler. What about the rate of rape in Ohio compared to
New York?
Mr. Kessler. The rate of rape in Ohio was 280 percent
higher.
Mr. Nadler. Then in New York? Assault?
Mr. Kessler. A 34 percent higher.
Mr. Nadler. Burglary?
Mr. Kessler. A 146 percent higher.
Mr. Nadler. Larceny?
Mr. Kessler. A 346 percent higher.
Mr. Nadler. Then in New York?
Mr. Kessler. Then in New York City.
Mr. Nadler. How do the incidence rates of those crimes in
New York City compared to the national averages?
Mr. Kessler. OK. New York City's murder rate is 18 percent
below the national average; rate of rape, 58 percent lower;
rate of robbery is 102 percent higher; rate of assault, 16
percent lower; rate of burglary, 44 percent lower; rate of
larceny, 71 percent lower; rate of motor theft, 58 percent
lower.
So, lower on six out of the seven.
Mr. Nadler. Now, let's talk specifically about violent
crime. Based on your review of crime data, does New York have a
higher or lower rate of violent crime than Florida?
Mr. Kessler. Lower.
Mr. Nadler. What about Louisiana?
Mr. Kessler. Lower.
Mr. Nadler. Kentucky?
Mr. Kessler. Lower.
Mr. Nadler. Arizona?
Mr. Kessler. Lower.
Mr. Nadler. North Carolina?
Mr. Kessler. Lower.
Mr. Nadler. If you were able to decide or given a choice of
where to hold a hearing about violent crime in America, what
are some of the cities or States where you think a hearing
would be most needed and most effective? Why?
Mr. Kessler. Well, I think you could certainly hold
hearings in places like Louisville, very high rates;
Jacksonville, very high crime rates there.
There's a lot of--Alabama, Mississippi, extraordinarily
high murder rates in those States, some in cities, some not in
cities.
There's--New York City is--look, there's a lot of bad stuff
that happens in this city, because there's 8\1/2\ million
people here. Relative to the rest of the country, it's doing
better.
Mr. Nadler. Finally, according to CDC data, the States with
the highest rates of gun deaths are Mississippi, Louisiana,
Wyoming, Missouri, Alabama, and Alaska.
What trends are you seeing with respect to gun violence
generally in red States?
Mr. Kessler. What we found when we looked at between 2000-
2020 is the murder rate in red States--as defined by the 25
States that voted for Donald Trump in 2020 versus the 25 States
that voted for Joe Biden--the murder rate in red States was
higher than the murder rate in blue States in all 21 of those
years. Over a cumulative 21-year period, it was 23 percent
higher in those red States.
Even if you took out the largest blue city in each of the
red States, the murder rate was 12 percent higher in red
States.
Mr. Nadler. Thank you.
I yield back.
Mr. Cicilline. Mr. Chair, parliamentary inquiry.
Chair Jordan. The gentleman may State his parliamentary
inquiry.
Mr. Cicilline. Mr. Chair, our parliamentary inquiry is: In
light of the testimony just heard, what is the mechanism for
the Committee to transfer this hearing to Ohio, where the crime
rate is significantly greater than here in New York?
Chair Jordan. That's not a--
Mr. Cicilline. Is there a motion?
Chair Jordan. That's not a parliamentary inquiry.
Mr. Cicilline. It is a--I'm asking a parliamentary--how do
we move the venue so we can have hearing in a city or State
that has a serious crime problem, the State of Ohio?
Chair Jordan. Not a properly stated parliamentary inquiry.
The gentleman's time has expired.
Mr. Cicilline. Appeal the ruling of the Chair.
Chair Jordan. It's not an appealable ruling.
Ms. Harrison. Mr. Jordan? I'm sorry. If Mr. Nadler is going
to make derogatory comments toward the mother of a homicide
victim, he could at least allow her some time to respond.
Chair Jordan. The gentlelady is not recognized. Hang on.
Mr. Nadler. There were no derogatory comments.
[Disturbance in hearing room.]
Chair Jordan. The Committee will be in order. The Committee
will be in order.
The gentleman's time has expired.
The gentleman from California is recognized for five
minutes.
Mr. Issa. Pursuant to what you just said, I think it is
important you have an opportunity to respond to the statement
by the Ranking Member, that you--justice was served in the case
of your loss. Ms. Brame.
Ms. Brame. Sergeant Hason Correa is dead forever. Dead
forever. There are four people directly responsible for his
murder. Two people is not justice. Until there is justice for
the murder of my son, there will be no peace, none. All four.
I'm asking for a special prosecutor to reopen those murder
and gang assault charges against Mary Stewart--Mary Saunders
and Travis Stewart. Present that evidence. Present that video
to a jury and allow them to decide those homicidal maniacs'
innocence or guilt.
My son is dead forever. They deserve to be in prison
forever.
Thank you.
Mr. Issa. Thank you.
Ms. Harrison, there's been a lot of discussion at the end
of the dais about gun violence, gun violence, gun violence.
All three of you at that end, were there guns involved in
the murder?
Ms. Brame. No.
Ms. Harrison. No, there were not. Madeline's son was
stabbed, and my boyfriend and his best friend were both stabbed
to death.
Mr. Issa. So, knives kill.
Ms. Harrison. When there's a will, there's a way. When evil
wants to attack, evil is going to attack.
I would also like to say that New York might have strict
gun laws, but we also have conflicting gun laws, which I
haven't heard from Ms. Fischer, regarding ``Raise the Age.''
Immediately after the Buffalo incident, Kathy Hochul
implemented a ``Raise the Age'' that placed a ban on purchasing
weapons, certain weapons, for minors. We also have an original
``Raise the Age'' law that conflicts that completely, because
it eliminates the criminal prosecution of anyone--any minor
holding an illegal weapon.
Mr. Issa. In this State, you have a universal assault
weapons ban and have for a long time. Isn't that true?
Ms. Harrison. I'm not sure about the assault weapons ban.
I'm sorry.
Mr. Issa. OK.
Mr Alba, I think your testimony was very powerful. You,
too, were attacked by other than a gun. Isn't that correct?
If you'd pause the clock.
[Mr. Alba's answers were delivered through an interpreter.]
Mr. Alba. That's correct.
Mr. Issa. I'm sorry. I can't hear you.
Mr. Alba. That's correct. There was no gun involved.
Mr. Issa. Your response that saved your life was also not a
gun. Is that correct?
Mr. Alba. Yes.
Mr. Issa. Well, I appreciate the fact that you were able to
respond.
In New York, if I understand correctly, even though you
were operating a store, you were not allowed to have a weapon
to protect yourself in the way of a gun. Is that correct?
I'd like to--go ahead.
The Interpreter. Can you please repeat the question?
Mr. Issa. Yes. In New York, you defended yourself with a
knife because, as a store operator, you were not allowed to
have a gun. Is that correct?
Mr. Alba. No.
Mr. Issa. OK. You don't own a gun. Is that correct?
The Interpreter. Yes, he doesn't own a gun. He doesn't
really know much about gun laws.
Mr. Issa. OK. Thank you.
Then, Mr. Holden, you probably could answer this. According
to the figures we were given earlier, at least 6,000 of the
19,000 weapons were New York-based weapons. Is it true that
guns go missing and get stolen and get straw-purchased here in
New York in spite of the most stringent laws in the country?
Mr. Holden. Exactly. You're not going to get every gun off
the street. The Iron Pipeline is a problem, we know that, but a
lot of guns come from New York City. A lot of guns are made in
New York City, put together in New York City.
The problem we have in New York State, in New York City,
is, we have some of the toughest gun laws in the Nation, but
they don't enforce them. The courts are not enforcing them, the
DAs are not enforcing them.
So, this is a big problem. You have multiple shootings, one
individual, five arrests for shootings, and he's back out on
the street. How is that working?
Mr. Issa. Yes.
Mr. DiGiacomo, you represent so many of our brave men and
women in blue. Can you comment on that failure to enforce
existing laws, leading to the kind of both gun and non-gun
violence that New York is seeing?
Mr. DiGiacomo. Well, like we said earlier, it was brought
out in the hearing that New York City police and detectives
took an amazing amount of firearms off the streets. Every time
they do that, they put their life in harm's way. They confront
an armed felon and they put their life in harm's way, just for
that individual to walk out the door the next day and again get
a firearm and use it either in a robbery or in gang-related
violence.
Mr. Issa. Mr. Chair, I'm not going to take all the time
that should've been paused, but I do want to comment that a lot
has been made about moving the venue or other places we could
be, and I will reiterate on behalf of my colleagues on the
other side of the aisle: Yes, we could be having this in Los
Angeles; yes, we could be having it in San Francisco. There are
other places around the country in which, systematically,
district attorneys are not enforcing the laws, leading to the
kind of terrible stories we're hearing here today.
I yield back.
Chair Jordan. The gentleman yields back.
The gentlelady from California, Ms. Lofgren, is recognized.
Ms. Lofgren. Thank you.
I do think that there is a reason why we're in this
jurisdiction.
First, let me just say: All of us on this Committee, no
matter our party, are opposed to crime, and all of us have
sympathy for victims of crime. It's not acceptable.
I will say also that we don't have jurisdiction. The
Federal Government does not have jurisdiction over State and
local prosecutions. That's up to the voters of each State and
each locality.
If we were going to have a hearing that we have no
jurisdiction to deal with, I think we might go to a place in
the Speaker's district, which has much higher crime rates than
New York City. As has been mentioned, Bakersfield has a
homicide rate of 13.7 percent per 1,000-100,000 people. New
York is at 5.5 for the same amount of residents.
I'll note also that 100 percent of the fatal officer-
involved shootings involved a gun.
Mr. Jordan in his opening statement mentioned his sympathy
for the police. We all have that. I also have sympathy for the
officers who defended us against a MAGA mob, unlike some
Members on the other side of the aisle.
I think it's pretty obvious that we're in New York because
of the case of New York v. Donald J. Trump. I'm also worried
that we're not here about guns. Because 80 percent of all the
murders in the U.S. are committed with a gun. We've had 155
mass shootings so far this year. Our colleagues on the other
side of the aisle have prevented any kind of sensible gun
violence legislation from passing to keep us safe.
Now, we're not the only country in the world with people
who want to do bad things or with people who are unstable.
We're the only country in the world that has mass shootings
practically every other day. That is something that's within
our jurisdiction, and we ought to take some action.
This is a choice that we are making, to allow all the
children of America to go into school worried that they're
going to be the victim of a mass shooting. It's a scandal that
we have done nothing about it.
Now, talking about The People v. Donald J. Trump, we don't
have jurisdiction over that either. That's something that is a
local prosecution, and it's entirely improper for the Federal
Government or any committee of the United States to try and
interfere in this matter.
So, having said that, I want to talk a little bit more
about--or ask a little bit more about gun violence and what can
be done about it.
Ms. Fischer, it's been suggested--or, Mr. Kessler, either
of you--that, somehow, having more guns would make us safer. Do
the statistics actually back that up, that having more guns
makes for a safer community?
Ms. Fischer. States with strong gun laws have lower rates
of gun violence.
One of the things that's important to say here is that
crime is going down in New York City, thankfully, but there is
more than can be done by Congress to enact strong universal
background checks, a strong Extreme Risk Protection Order law
at the Federal level, and to fund State laws. There's more that
can be done to enact safe-storage laws and to combat the
trafficking crisis. Congress is standing idly by and not doing
anything.
Ms. Lofgren. Let me ask you about--some of our colleagues
have suggested that we defund the prosecutor's office here in
Manhattan. It's my understanding that the majority of the funds
comes from an annual grant to the office's Witness Aid Services
Unit that provides services to victims of crime.
What would the impact be of eliminating those services, if
you know, Mr. Kessler or Ms. Fischer?
Ms. Fischer. Sure.
We need to be investing and putting more resources into
victim services and supporting victims. As you heard here
today, we need to be giving victims more mental health support
and more social support. We need to be helping them find access
to compensation, not only for funeral expenses, for hospital
expenses, to make up for lost income.
Ms. Lofgren. Let me just say, I want to thank all the
witnesses, including the victims of crime. I fear that you are
being used for a political purpose, despite your sincerity.
[Disturbance in hearing room.]
Chair Jordan. The gentlelady's time has expired. The
gentlelady's--the Committee will be in order. The Committee
will be in order.
The gentlelady's time has expired.
The gentleman from Florida, Mr. Gaetz, is recognized for
five minutes.
Mr. Gaetz.
Our criminal justice system is insane. It's dangerous. It's
harmful. And it is destroying the fabric of our city. Time and
again, our police officers make an arrest, and then the person
who was arrested for assault, felonious assault, robberies, and
gun possession, they're finding themselves back on the street
within days, if not hours, after arrest.
Eric Adams, New York
Mayor
Mr. Gaetz. My friends, the reason we are here in New York
is because you have Democrats, you have citizens calling for
some relief from this pain. We are here not to use anyone but
to uplift the voices of brave people who are here to tell their
story.
Ms. Brame, do you feel used in this hearing?
[Disturbance in hearing room.]
Chair Jordan. The gentleman is recognized.
Mr. Gaetz. Ms. Brame, do you feel used?
Ms. Brame. Absolutely not.
Mr. Gaetz. Ms. Harrison?
Ms. Brame. I'm a willing participant.
Mr. Gaetz. Ms. Harrison, do you feel used?
Tell you what, let me ask it this way: Do you feel more
used by this Committee hearing, or do you feel more used by a
criminal justice system that allowed people to kill people that
you love and care about with no consequence?
Ms. Harrison. The latter. I'm beyond grateful for the
opportunity to testify here on behalf of victims, because the
Democrat Party, including Mr. Nadler and everybody here today,
has ignored us in this city. We need Federal oversight. We need
help. We're not getting any kind of help.
Mr. Gaetz. So--
Ms. Harrison. The services that she wants to keep funding
are not being provided to the victims. I have a woman sitting
outside who is a victim of domestic violence, who was conned by
an immigrant, and she is receiving no services whatsoever.
So, until we get a thorough audit to the outcomes of the
services being provided, no. We need to find out what's going
wrong and get the services to where they need to be.
Mr. Gaetz. I am not here to criticize any New Yorkers,
except maybe one, and that's because so many New Yorkers will
soon become Florida voters.
This is an iconic city. It's actually our Nation's most
iconic city. It's not because of the beautiful architecture,
and it's not because of the geography. It is because of the
sense of hustle that is so inherent to the people who come to
New York to achieve their dreams. Increasingly, that hustle is
being replaced with fear.
Mr. Holden, Councilman Holden, you and I are from different
parties. If we talked about a thousand things, we'd probably
disagree about the vast majority of them. Here is my simple
question for you: Is fear a rising feature of life in New York,
or is fear a declining feature of life in New York?
Mr. Holden. It is increasingly worrisome, what we're going
through in New York City. Fear is an everyday event in New York
City.
Taking the Subway. My wife is Asian-American. She will not
get on a New York City Subway. My daughter will not get on a
New York City Subway, for fear, because many Asian-Americans
have been attacked.
Mr. Gaetz. Mr. Kessler says, there's just a lot of people
here in Manhattan; you just have to take it.
Mr. Holden. Right.
Mr. Gaetz. You just have to understand that this is going
to be a violent place.
Mr. Holden. Which I found that insulting.
Mr. Gaetz. Well, Mr. DiGiacomo, you're here as the voice of
law enforcement, in many ways. Since the days of Cain and Abel,
there has constantly been a violent criminal element as some
feature of American society. The lives we all get to live are
lashed to whether or not we put that violent criminal element
in charge or whether or not we constrain it for the sake of
people who want freedom.
So, my question for you is: When the ``Day 1 Memo'' of
Alvin Bragg changes the way resisting arrest is treated, so
people can resist arrest against law enforcement and not
actually face a consequence for that, what does that do to the
enterprise of police officers?
Mr. DiGiacomo. Well, it makes the officers and the
detectives on the street, their job that much harder.
Everything becomes confrontational or physical. They put
themselves--the police officers and detectives are in harm's
way. Now, I--
Mr. Gaetz. Well, we don't want to do that, but I have only
a moment left, and I have to address this matter of crime rates
that my colleagues keep talking about.
To the extent that there is an impact on crime rates in
major cities, I would suggest that this is exactly what you get
with the ``Soros-ization'' of the United States justice system.
In places like New Orleans, Louisiana, in places like Tampa,
Florida, in Jacksonville, Florida, in Tucson, Arizona,
increasingly George Soros is putting in upwards of $40 million
to elect 75 DAs to be able to engage in these downgrades.
By the way, not only are they downgrading the violent
things, they can't even win the cases they try.
Mr. Holden, you pointed out the fact that Alvin Bragg is
actually terrible at losing in court. Since I don't have time,
I would ask you for the record, since he keeps losing all of
his cases, we might opine as to why, and we might seek a better
utilization of the Federal resources that we provide.
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I yield back.
Chair Jordan. The gentleman yields back.
The Chair now recognizes the gentlelady from Texas, Ms.
Jackson Lee.
Ms. Jackson Lee. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Let me indicate, I abhor crime. I abhor victimization, the
victims that suffer. I want to prevent crime. I want to pay
tribute to all the law enforcement in this room and outside and
those in Houston, Texas, from where I come from, of which I
have a deep and abiding affection and relationship with.
As a Democrat, I will not sit here, as my predecessor said,
Barbara Jordan, and see the diminution of the Constitution, the
destruction of what we believe in and our values.
I want to stand here and be supportive of everyone who is
before us, but I want to do it in a way that is befitting the
patriotism of this Nation. The very soldiers that are on front
lines wearing uniforms are people of color and otherwise. I
abhor anti-Semitism, if you will.
I abhor people being violated through domestic violence. It
was Democrats who fought extensively for the Violence Against
Women Act, which has put a lot of money in the State of New
York City and other States.
Let us work together. Let us find facts that really address
this question. That is what I'm going to try to do.
First, I think it is important to note that the moneys that
the Republicans want to cut are moneys that would help victims.
We don't want victims, but we need to have resources. My own
crime victims in Houston say, ``We are lonely. We need to be
taken care of after the incident.'' I agree and I brought money
to the Houston Police Department.
Let me ask Ms. Vaughan: There are many things that we can
do better--excuse me, Ms. Fischer: There are many things that
we can do better. I'd clearly like you to talk about the
importance of a storage bill. I've introduced the Kimberly
Vaughan Safe Storage Act. What does that do in terms of
bringing down gun violence?
Ms. Fischer. Thank you--
Ms. Jackson Lee. My time is short, so I appreciate it.
Ms. Fischer. Thank you, Representative.
We need safe-storage laws to ensure that children can't
access guns that shouldn't have them; to ensure that
individuals who are in crisis can't access them and potentially
commit suicide and mass shootings.
Safe-storage laws work. We have a strong one here in New
York State, and Congress should enact one as well.
Ms. Jackson Lee. Can I just ask, yes or no, are mandatory
red flag laws good?
Ms. Fischer. Yes.
Ms. Jackson Lee. Should we rush to Washington and implement
a ban on assault weapons?
Ms. Fischer. Yes.
Ms. Jackson Lee. Can we do better in passing stronger gun
safety legislation? We know we've had one bill, but can we do
better?
Ms. Fischer. We absolutely can do better, and we need
comprehensive reform, and we need it urgently, for all
Americans.
Ms. Jackson Lee. Mr. Kessler, can you quickly respond to
the question of violence? Can you, under oath, as you've taken,
affirm that violence or gun violence, in a myriad of ways, has
going down in this State? I just want to hear you say it again.
Mr. Kessler. Yes, it is absolutely true. It's also 18
percent below the national average in New York City. New York
State has a far lower murder rate than the country as a whole.
Ms. Jackson Lee. Quickly, thank you very much--Ms. Fischer,
what percentage of guns found in New York come from other
places?
Ms. Fischer. Over 70 percent of guns that are used in
crimes in New York City and across New York State come from out
of State, the Iron Pipeline from weak-gun-law States, including
Florida, the Carolinas, and Georgia.
Ms. Jackson Lee. Let me ask Council Member Holden--thank
you for your service. You said you're a lifelong New Yorker?
Mr. Holden. That's correct.
Ms. Jackson Lee. You therefore lived in New York in the
1970s, 1980s, 1990s, and so on?
Mr. Holden. Yes. Yep.
Ms. Jackson Lee. Did you say in an article recently, ``I've
never seen the lawlessness we're seeing now''?
Mr. Holden. Yep.
Ms. Jackson Lee. So, do you realize and recognize this
pamphlet, ``Fear City,'' in the 1970s?
So, apparently we've had some ups and downs. This is ``Fear
City: A Survival Guide for Visitors to the city of New York,''
NYPD, 1975.
I'd ask unanimous consent to put this in the record.
Chair Jordan. Without objection.
Ms. Jackson Lee. So, we've had our moments. We do better if
we work together. Rather than we cast about what is bad and
what isn't, let's work together. Let's get the funds, let's get
the appropriate justice for these victims.
Let me quickly go to this point. We are here wrongly,
because--you're here rightly. You are here rightly. We're here
wrongly, because District Attorney Bragg, because of Trump, has
been called--he called him a ``Soros-backed animal,'' a dog
whistle. Then, of course, other Republicans have followed
likely.
By the way, Republicans have threatened to defund the ATF--
Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms--that does a lot on trafficking.
This office, because of these threats, white powder has
come. He's had threatening and racially charged calls into the
District Attorney.
I indicated to you my belief and love in democracy. I want
justice for you. This is an absurd and poor reflection of who
we are as Americans, who I am as a Houstonian. I believe in
bringing people together. We need to bring people together and
work on the solutions.
I ask unanimous consent to place in the record ``3 Are
Charged With Selling `Ghost Guns' Including Assault Weapons.''
Chair Jordan. Without objection.
Ms. Jackson Lee. --I'm asking unanimous consent.
Chair Jordan. Yes, without objection.
Ms. Jackson Lee. The ``Welcome to Fear City,'' unanimous
consent?
Chair Jordan. Without objection.
Ms. Jackson Lee. With that, I yield back. I thank you.
I thank the witnesses out of the bottom of my heart.
Chair Jordan. The gentlelady yields back.
The Chair now recognizes himself for five minutes.
Mr. Holden, you were born in New York City?
Mr. Holden. Yes.
Chair Jordan. You were raised in New York City, went to
grade school and high school here in the city?
Mr. Holden. Yep.
Chair Jordan. Went to college in New York City? You got a--
Mr. Holden. Yes.
Chair Jordan. I think I looked. You got an associate
degree, an undergrad degree, post-grad degree, all from
universities here in New York City. Is that right?
Mr. Holden. Yes, I did, Chair.
Chair Jordan. You're a professor at a university here in
New York City?
Mr. Holden. Right. Forty-four years.
Chair Jordan. All your professional career has been spent
here in New York City. Is that right?
Mr. Holden. Yes.
Chair Jordan. You received a lifetime achievement award for
your volunteer work from a Queens civic group. Is that right?
Mr. Holden. Yes.
Chair Jordan. For your work here in the city.
Mr. Holden. Yes.
Chair Jordan. You love this town, don't you?
Mr. Holden. I love it.
Chair Jordan. I think Mr. Gaetz is right. I think America
loves this town.
Mr. Holden. Right.
Chair Jordan. Whether you're a Yankees fan, a Mets fan, a
Giants fan, a Jets fan, we don't--the Statue of Liberty, Ellis
Island, Broadway, and Wall Street. Americans love this city.
Maybe most, I think Americans appreciate the people of this
town and the example they showed the country after that tragic
day of 9/11.
Mr. Holden. Right.
Chair Jordan. Do you agree with all that, Mr. Holden?
Mr. Holden. I agree with that 100 percent.
Chair Jordan. Yes.
Right now, the policies being implemented by this District
Attorney are going to ruin this great city. Do you agree with
that?
Mr. Holden. Yes, I do.
Chair Jordan. It's scary, isn't it? It's scary what you
see. It's scary what Ms. Harrison's had to endure, what Mr.
Alba's had to endure, what Ms. Brame's had to endure, and what
Mr. Borgen has had to endure.
It's driven by that ``Day 1 Memo,'' that ``Day 1 Memo,''
which sent a message to this town, to the bad guys in this
town: You can do bad things, and you're not going to get
prosecuted.
Do you agree with all that, Mr. Holden?
Mr. Holden. Yes, I do.
Chair Jordan. Yes, it's scary. Soft-on-crime policies are
going to ruin this great city, and that's why we're here.
It's happened in other cities, as Mr. Gaetz pointed out.
That's why this is not the only hearing. We're going to have
other hearings. We'll go to wherever we need to go.
This is something that has to happen--that has to stop.
Justice isn't supposed to be political.
Now, Mr. Holden, you're a Democrat, right?
Mr. Holden. Yes, I am.
Chair Jordan. It shouldn't matter. Republican or Democrat,
I think as a lot of people said, it should not matter, should
it?
Mr. Holden. It should not.
Chair Jordan. What's the answer, Mr. Holden? What would you
recommend?
Mr. Holden. Well, my allegiance is to my constituents. I
live here.
Chair Jordan. Well said.
Mr. Holden. For 71 years, I've lived in New York City. I've
seen bad times, high crime, 2,000 murders a year in the 1980s.
I've not seen the lawlessness that I'm seeing today in New York
City in my lifetime. That means we're afraid to go anywhere.
There's things--
Chair Jordan. Let me just be clear. So, in 71 years, your
life here in this great city, it's never been as bad as it is
today.
Mr. Holden. I've had so many friends leaving this town
because they just see the quality of life dropping. They go out
on the street, there's people driving down the wrong way with
the electric scooters, there's people robbing stores. You know
that all the--
Chair Jordan. Yes.
Mr. Holden. --pharmacies in New York City have to be under
lock and key, you have to go in a case.
It's so bad, these small crimes, that Mr. Bragg has said
he's not going to prosecute. You don't send that message out
there. That's why we disagree. We're the same party, but we
totally disagree on that.
Again, my allegiance is not to the party. It's to my
constituents and where I live. Again, I plan to live here until
I die. I don't want to see it go down the drain.
Chair Jordan. Yes. You're standing up for the folks you get
to represent in Queens as part of the city council.
Mr. Borgen, Ms. Fischer earlier said, ``bad guys go into
other States and buy guns illegally.'' The Democrats' response
is, take away guns from law-abiding citizens.
Is that going to work, Mr. Borgen?
Mr. Borgen. Absolutely not.
I just want to say one thing. I sit here and listen. You're
on one side; you're on one side. When Ronald Reagan was
President, him and Tip O'Neill had regular meetings, got
together and worked together in Congress.
Chair Jordan. That's right.
Mr. Borgen. I don't understand why I have to sit here,
whether Republican or Democrat--I'm a Republican, by the way. I
now vote in Florida, and I'm a registered voter in Florida. I
have a Florida driver's license. Based on--I'm not trying to
stay.
The fact of the matter is, if everybody worked together and
not sit here and say, this party says this about Trump, about
this, it's just--it doesn't make any sense. The fact of the
matter is, the criminals will get guns either way. You can do
whatever you want; the criminals are going to get guns. They
always have gotten guns. It's not going to change. It's not
going to change.
So, you can sit here until you're blue in the face. You can
say, Congress, we're going to outlaw gun sales across America.
They're going to get guns.
Chair Jordan. Yep.
Mr. Borgen. The criminals will get guns. There's nothing
you can do about it. Just that's life.
Mr. Kessler sits here and says we have to sit here and take
it. I've never heard someone say to me I have to take crime.
I live in Long Island. Crime has now come to my area, out
in the Five Towns, a very nice, suburban area. We have had
robberies now in stores. Now, the crime is coming toward me
because, I guess, New York City is tapped out; they can't rob
the pharmacies anymore.
Criminals are going to get guns. Nothing you can do about
it, absolutely nothing.
Chair Jordan. The bad guys aren't necessarily stupid;
they're just bad.
Mr. Borgen. They're just bad.
Chair Jordan. They're going to figure out a way to do bad
things. The key is to put bad guys behind bars so they can't
harm others. When you send that message, things get better.
Mr. Borgen. There's a segment of society that are always
going to be criminals. It's been from day one. Nothing you can
do about it. If Mr. Bragg would lock people up, then it'd save
a lot of headaches in New York City and save lives.
Chair Jordan. Thank you, Mr. Borgen.
[Disturbance in hearing room.]
Chair Jordan. The gentleman--the Chair now recognizes the
gentleman from Georgia, Mr. Johnson, for five minutes.
Mr. Johnson of Georgia. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Chair, this is a sham hearing. It's not about crime in
New York. It's an effort to impede and ultimately suppress the
prosecution of Donald Trump. If you don't believe it, then all
you need to do is connect the dots.
First, Manhattan District Attorney Bragg announced his
criminal charges against ex-President Trump. Then, House
Judiciary Republicans abused their power by subpoenaing
testimony and records from DA Bragg about the ongoing
prosecution. Next, they bring this sham hearing to Manhattan,
supposedly about crime. If my colleagues across the aisle were
really concerned and really cared about reducing violent crime,
they'd work with Democrats to pass commonsense gun laws.
There are too many gun deaths in this country, and that's
why I have joined with my fellow Democrats to cosponsor bills
that would ban assault weapons, strengthen background checks,
and fund research into gun violence prevention.
Meanwhile, MAGA Republicans continue to resist even the
most basic reforms, like universal background checks. If
Republicans really wanted to stop violent crime, they would be
in D.C. right now working with Democrats to pass commonsense
gun legislation. Instead, like jackbooted thugs, they've
descended on New York City, using violent crime as their
pretext.
The MAGA Republican extremists are not interested in gun
violence--or even knife violence. The Republican witnesses who
have used their time to criticize District Attorney Bragg have
served as props in a MAGA Broadway production. The real purpose
in coming to New York City--
[Disturbance in hearing room.]
Chair Jordan. Hey.
Mr. Johnson of Georgia. The real purpose--
Chair Jordan. Hey.
Mr. Johnson of Georgia. The real purpose in coming to New
York City--
Chair Jordan. The gentleman will suspend. The gentleman
will suspend.
Mr. Johnson of Georgia. Stop the clock.
[Disturbance in hearing room.]
Chair Jordan. For the audience, I've said several times now
that the Committee has to be in order. If anyone continues,
then we're going to have escort some people out.
Mr. Borgen. Please don't talk--
Chair Jordan. So--
Mr. Borgen. Please don't talk down to us witnesses, please.
Chair Jordan. Yes. The gentleman from Georgia controls the
time. Mr. Johnson can proceed.
Mr. Johnson of Georgia. The real purpose in coming to New
York City is to harass, intimidate, and threaten Manhattan
District Attorney Alvin Bragg.
We are here because Manhattan District Attorney Bragg
announced the indictment of former President Trump, and MAGA
U.S. House Republicans have responded by using their power to
try to help ex-President Trump beat the 34 counts of fraud that
he has been charged with.
MAGA Republican extremists have defended the January 6th
insurrectionists, and they are out here today serving as
Trump's bulldogs, trying to scare a duly elected district
attorney from following the facts where they lead and enforcing
the law.
It is just one more sign that MAGA Republicans are a clear
and present danger to our democracy and are actively working to
undermine the rule of law, not just federally, but also on the
State and local levels.
With that, Mr. Chair, I yield the balance of my time to the
gentleman from New York's 18th District, Hon. Congressman
Adriano Espaillat.
Chair Jordan. The gentleman is recognized.
Mr. Espaillat. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Thank you, Ranking Member.
Thank you, my colleague, Hank Johnson, for yielding time.
Mr. Chair, first, I want to express my condolences, my
deepest condolences, to both Ms. Harrison and Ms. Brame.
Mr. Alba, I was proud to see your community, our community,
rally around you and other bodegueros, and I applauded DA
Bragg's decision to drop the charges against you.
During the 1980s and 1990s, before I was involved in public
service, as a regular citizen of New York, I fought crime and
drugs during the crack wars in northern Manhattan. During those
years, the 34th Precinct used to average over 100 homicides--
let me repeat this--over 100 homicides a year.
Myself and my family members were held at gunpoint during
those years, held up at gunpoint. I don't know if any of you
here have been held up at gunpoint. This is deeply personal to
me.
This year, the 34th Precinct has witnessed zero homicides.
Last year, although far too many, that same precinct in
northern Manhattan witnessed five homicides. From 100-5 to,
this year, zero.
Let me say something to you, Mr. Chair. The common
denominator in most homicides across the country is a gun. It's
a gun. Eighty percent of the homicides in this country are
committed by guns.
Chair Jordan. The Committee will be in order. The
gentleman's time--
Mr. Espaillat. A young man--
Chair Jordan. The gentleman's time has--
Mr. Espaillat. A young man murdered on 137th--
Chair Jordan. The gentleman's time has expired.
Mr. Espaillat. A young man murdered on 137th Street, a gun.
Chair Jordan. The gentleman from Georgia yields back.
Mr. Espaillat. You guys brandish your pins with the AR-15?
Chair Jordan. The gentleman--
Mr. Espaillat. Reprehensible.
Chair Jordan. The gentleman from Louisiana, Mr. Johnson, is
recognized for five minutes.
Mr. Johnson of Louisiana. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I wanted to begin by quoting a short excerpt from an
important study and legal memorandum that was issued in
November by The Heritage Foundation. Listen to this. It's
entitled, ``The Blue City Murder Problem.'' This summary
statement is a message to all Americans--
Chair Jordan. If the gentleman would suspend for just a
second.
I would ask that the audience be quiet. The gentleman from
Louisiana controls the time.
If we could stop press--if the press would please move so
we can conduct the hearing. Move aside.
Capitol Police, if you could help us just clear that out.
The press will be given ample opportunity to talk to folks.
We need to clear out and be quiet hearing.
The Committee will be in order.
The gentleman from Louisiana is recognized for five
minutes.
Mr. Johnson of Louisiana. Here's the quote:
Your public safety as a resident is dramatically impacted by
your district attorney and whether he or she is a George Soros-
funded rogue prosecutor or a law-and-order prosecutor, by your
police department, and by whether the local politicians support
and adequately fund the police and prosecutors' offices.
It goes on:
This is why the Soros rogue prosecutor movement has
concentrated its fire at identifying, recruiting, and funding
candidates for local district attorney races. By elevating pro-
criminal and anti-victim zealots into office, the rogue
prosecutor movement destabilizes the safety of our communities,
treats criminals as victims and police as the criminals, and
ignores real victims.
America's sky-high murder rates, for example, are almost
exclusively cabined in cities run by Democrats and with
Democrat district attorneys, many of whom are bought and paid
for by George Soros.
Why are we beginning our crime-wave field hearings in New
York City? Because this is one of the most egregious examples
in America. Alvin Bragg is the poster child for exactly what
was just described.
Ms. Brame, I want to thank you for your compelling
testimony today and sharing the shocking and tragic story of
your son, Sergeant Hason Correa's gang assault and vicious
murder by four criminals he did not know.
In your written statement submitted today, you wrote this.
You said, quote,
DA Bragg has demonstrated over and over again that he has no
regard or concern for human life or victims of crime by
instructing his ADAs to not prosecute violent recidivists and
ultimately release them back to the streets to victimize and
terrorize more innocent New Yorkers.
You heard Mr. Nadler, Mr. Kessler, and others share their
manipulated statistics this morning suggesting that New York
City is, quote, ``one of the safest big cities in America.''
You and other New Yorkers don't agree with that, I know. Mr.
Holden just said, ``our people are afraid to go anywhere
because this is the worst lawlessness in the city's history.''
How do you respond to these claims that this is just a
magical, safe city right now?
Ms. Brame. Well, I think that the average New Yorker
doesn't care nothing about no statistics, OK, especially in the
Black and Brown communities.
We care about the mothers who have to visit the morgue to
identify their dead child's body. We care about the mothers who
have to lean into the coffin and watch them lower that top down
on that child and they know they'll never see them again. We
care about being able to let our child go out to the park and
play without getting shot in their stroller. We care about not
getting raped in elevators.
We don't care nothing about your statistics. You cannot
convince us to not believe our lying eyes with your numbers.
All right? Because we see it with our very eyes day-in and day-
out, especially in the poor Black and Brown communities, where
none of you in this room would even step foot in.
Mr. Johnson of Louisiana. Ms. Brame, you're so right.
They're changing the subject. They're doing their best to
change the subject here and obscure the facts because the facts
are difficult for them to face.
The objective fact is that Manhattan has instituted pro-
crime, anti-victim policies that have resulted in an increase
in violent crime and created this dangerous situation in the
community, in America's once-great city that was the symbol of
freedom and opportunity and liberty.
According to the NYPD data, New York City saw a 23-percent
surge in major crimes in one year since Alvin Bragg took over.
That is the fact. We have a violent crime epidemic here.
Everybody in America knows it, because we see the videos played
out on our television local news every single night of what's
going on here in the city.
I just want to say this, and I'm almost out of time, but
I've shared in this Committee before the long list of
statements from leading Democrats in Congress and the leading
Democrats on this very Committee who specifically and
aggressively called for the defunding of the police. As a
result, in 2020, in New York City, officials cut $1 billion
from the police department's 2021 budget.
These are the completely foreseeable and obvious effects of
the soft-on-crime policies that are advanced by Soros-funded
DAs. Alvin Bragg is, in my view, probably the worst offender.
They're trying to manipulate the facts, they're trying to
change it, but I thank you for being here.
I yield the remainder of my time.
[Disturbance in hearing room.]
Chair Jordan. The Committee will be in order.
The gentleman yields back.
The gentleman from California, Mr. Schiff, is recognized
for five minutes.
Mr. Schiff. Almost three weeks ago--is the microphone on?
Chair Jordan. Yes. Just pull it closer.
Mr. Schiff. OK. Almost three weeks ago, Donald J. Trump was
indicted by a grand jury in Manhattan on dozens of counts of
fraud in connection with a hush-money payment scheme in which
his personal lawyer, Michael Cohen, previously went to jail.
Since the former President's indictment, the Manhattan
District Attorney has been the subject of countless death
threats and racist diatribes. Others have made ugly appeals to
anti-Semitism in an effort to attack the proceedings.
This Committee has used every means at its disposal to
disrupt, interrupt, and interfere with the prosecution,
demanding documents it has no right to obtain and no
jurisdiction to demand, subpoenaing a former district attorney,
deputy district attorney, and threatening to subpoena the DA
himself, and now holding this hearing in Manhattan in a vain
attempt to intimidate or embarrass the prosecutorial authority.
Now, the majority denies that this is the purpose of
today's hearing. They would have you believe it is a mere
coincidence that, all of a sudden and out of the blue, the
Chair decided that the State of New York is a wonderful place
to do a hearing--not the Chair's home State of Ohio, with its
high rates of murder, but New York State. Of all the cities in
New York, they would pick New York City. Of all the boroughs in
New York, they pick Manhattan. Apparently, Manhattan is just
lovely this time of year.
What a remarkable coincidence, we are meant to believe. Of
all the gin joints in all the towns in all the world, we just
happened to walk into this one.
How absurd.
Of course, this is not a coincidence at all. Instead, it is
the GOP leadership in Congress doing what it has done best for
the last six years, and that is to act as the criminal defense
counsel for Donald J. Trump.
Well, let me tell you this--let me tell you this--
[Disturbance in hearing room.]
Chair Jordan. Capitol Police--the gentleman will suspend.
Capitol Police will remove the gentleman from the audience.
Mr. Schiff. Let me tell you this--let me tell you this--
[Disturbance in hearing room.]
Chair Jordan. The gentleman--
Mr. Schiff. Let me tell you this--
[Disturbance in hearing room.]
Mr. Schiff. Let me tell you this--
Chair Jordan. Stop. Stop. Stop.
[Disturbance in hearing room.]
Mr. Schiff. Donald J. Trump--
Chair Jordan. The gentleman will suspend until we've got
order.
[Disturbance in hearing room.]
Chair Jordan. The gentleman will suspend. The audience has
to be in order.
Capitol Police? Capitol Police? Sir?
[Disturbance in hearing room.]
Mr. Schiff. Can we have order?
Chair Jordan. We are working on it, Mr. Schiff. Gentlemen,
Capitol Police, please remove the gentleman from the audience.
No, you've gotta go. You've gotta go. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
I've given you several warnings. You've gotta go,
unfortunately.
[Disturbance in hearing room.]
Mr. Schiff. That was a very unfortunate attack on Ralph
Nader.
Chair Jordan. The Committee will be in order. The Committee
will be in order.
The gentleman from California.
Mr. Schiff. Those comments about Ralph Nader are way out of
line.
Of course, it is not a coincidence that we are here in
Manhattan. Instead, it is the GOP leadership in Congress doing
what it has done best over the last six years, and that is to
act as the criminal defense counsel for Donald J. Trump.
Well, let me tell you this: Donald Trump doesn't need the
lawyers on this Committee to be his criminal defense lawyer. He
has plenty of those already.
Nor is that the role of Congress. Quite the opposite. Our
role should be to defend the rule of law, not tear it down. We
should be defending the principle that no one is above the law,
not attempting to establish a new principle that if are you
politically powerful enough you get a pass. We should be
defending the independence of the grand jury and the safety of
a public servant enforcing the law, not adding to the dangers
to both.
The Manhattan District Attorney has the burden of proving
Donald Trump guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. A jury of
ordinary citizens will have the responsibility of determining
whether he has met that burden. That this process will be the
same for a former President as it would be for his lawyer or
his driver or his doorman or his neighbor is the strength of a
democracy, not its weakness.
The first thing Chair Jordan said today was that this
hearing is about the administration of justice. More
accurately, it is about an effort to interfere with the
administration of justice.
He said that, here in Manhattan, the scales of justice are
being weighed down by politics. They are, but only today and by
this Committee's actions in trying to intimidate the Manhattan
DA for having the audacity to believe that in America being
rich, being powerful, even being President of the United States
does not entitle you to violate the law with impunity.
There was a time in America when both parties used to
believe in the rule of law, but, sadly, those days are over.
One of America's two great political parties believes that
political might makes right. More than right, it means that you
are beyond the reach of the law and beyond accountability. The
more power, the less justice. This is not democracy. This is
the antithesis of democracy.
I yield back.
Chair Jordan. The gentleman yields back. The gentleman
yields back.
The gentleman from Arizona is recognized for five minutes.
Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I appreciate all our
witnesses being here today. Thank you for sharing your
compelling stories.
I would just say, Mr. Borgen, after hearing what you've
heard today, I think you probably understand why it's real
tough to sit down and have a logical, cogent argument on how we
might jointly, with nonpartisan affiliation, try to solve so
many problems. What do you think?
Mr. Borgen. It's funny Mr. Schiff sits there and talks
about you guys, Republicans, about Trump. Hey, while Trump was
in office, he's been holding hearings trying to get him out for
four years.
So, I don't think you have the right to say that. You
politicized when you were in power. You tried to get Trump out.
You couldn't get him out. Let's face reality. You tried. The
dossier was a fake, everything what it was. You tried to get
him. He's sitting there laughing. That's very nice.
The other Democrats are telling us that we're all props for
sitting here. Please don't talk down to us. It's really not
nice.
Mr. Biggs. Thank you, Mr. Borgen. Thank you very much.
So, I wanted to just--read some--these are not by a
Republican. These aren't from Republican Members of this
Committee. These are just comments here. This is what an
individual said:
I would add that, you know, is it's not so much from
necessarily Federal funding, but it's something that I do want
to spend more time on and focus on and use the plight--use the
pulpit of representing the district in public safety.
I think a lot of people walk around this city very scared right
now, and the violent crime wave is very concerning. This
individual also said: ``I think people are scared to go on the
subway in the whole district.'' I've heard it from all over the
place, from the wealthy. The wealthy areas in Tribeca to
Chinatown to Borough Park to Sunset Park. I think a lot of
people are afraid. He also said: ``I'm very concerned about the
safety in the city.'' He also said:
I've been a part of this community defending the victims and
trying to protect the public for my whole career. And I think
that those experiences resonate with people in different ways
for different reasons.
We can't allow people to just continue to cycle through the
system because it's demoralizing to the cops, and it gives
everyone a perception of danger. He also said:
Whether or not the data says that it's safe or not, there is a
perception in the city that it is not safe, and one of the
reasons for that is the perpetual recidivism that is going on.
He also said, quote:
You've got people randomly being shot on the subways. You've
got people randomly being thrown into car trunks and driven to
remote place and shot. There's an insecurity not felt in 25
years. It's scary to me and far away the No. 1 issue.
That didn't come from anybody on this side of the aisle. It
didn't even come from any of you at the table. It came from Mr.
Goldman over there. We sit in his district. He knows that
there's a crime problem.
We've been hearing about a study. Let me refer you to the
Heritage study that my colleague referred to, and I ask for its
admission into the record.
Chair Jordan. Without objection.
Mr. Biggs. Thank you. Quote:
When you remove the crime-infested, homicide-riddled cities
from the State murder rate featured in the Third Wave study you
dramatically lower the murder rate for that State, upending
their conclusions--his conclusions--and exposing the piece for
what it really is: A straightforward attempt at political
projection dressed up as a study.
This was coauthored by Mr. Kessler.
That's what you've been hearing about to rebut the stories
and the facts of the lives of the victims and the witnesses and
those who live in this city today.
Mr. Holden, why won't your family take the subway, the mass
transit system in this city?
Mr. Holden. What they've experienced--when my daughter took
the subway the other day for the first time, she says: ``I'm
not going back, because I felt unsafe. People talk to
themselves. People screaming. It is terrible.''
By the way, if you want to cherry pick numbers on the other
side--and I'm a Democrat, but I'm against what I've heard about
these stats. Downloaded from the NYPD this morning: 25 percent
increase in all the seven major crimes in New York City in a
two-year period, 26 percent in a 13-year period for Manhattan
North. Manhattan South, 59 percent increase in a two-year
period in the seven major crimes, 17 percent in the 13-year
period.
For all of New York City--and this, again, is from NYPD, so
cherry pick your own numbers, but this is overall--45 percent
increase in the two-year period in crime in the seven major
crimes and a 23 percent in the 13-year.
So, this is what we're facing, and this is why we go to
work. We fought so hard in the nineties to stop this crime wave
that we had in New York City, and we did it, but now it's being
rolled back to the bad old days.
Mr. Biggs. I yield back.
Chair Jordan. I thank the gentleman. The gentleman yields
back.
Let me just before going to Mr. Cicilline, we've been at
this two hours. Are the witnesses fine? Because we'll keep
going, but if you need a break, just please let us know.
The gentleman from Rhode Island is recognized for five
minutes.
Mr. Cicilline. Mr. Chair, I yield 30 seconds to Mr. Goldman
from New York.
Mr. Goldman. I appreciate Mr. Biggs' reference to some of
the concerns that we have about public safety because it is
something that is shared across the aisle.
The problem is that you are using this as a political stunt
unrelated to real concerns about public safety around this
country. Manhattan has the sixth fewest murders out of the top
50 cities in this country. So, we all know why you're here. So,
don't play the political games. You want to have a meaningful
conversation? Let's talk.
I yield back.
Mr. Cicilline. I want to thank the witnesses for being here
today and, of course, sharing some very painful stories about
your loss. I want to start by emphasizing that keeping
Americans safe is one of the most, if not the most, important
responsibilities that we have in government. It's one of our
most important callings as lawmakers. I was mayor of a city and
presided over the lowest crime rate in 30 years serving as a
public safety commissioner. So, I understand this very deeply.
My colleagues, sadly, are not here to meaningfully work on
public safety solutions. This hearing was called for a purpose,
to intimidate a district attorney for doing his job and
upholding the rule of law.
You know how I know this? Because our colleagues
consistently vote against laws that would increase public
safety and ignore facts on what actually decreases crime. Gun
violence is now the leading cause of death of children in
America, and it kills 40,000 Americans a year.
[Disturbance in hearing room.]
Chair Jordan. The Committee will be in order.
Would the gentleman suspend just for a second?
Mr. Cicilline. I'd ask that the clock stop, please.
Chair Jordan. Yes, the clock stopped. We'll be happy to do
that.
We need to stop the conversations over here. The gentleman
deserves to be heard. The Committee guests will please refrain
from talking and chatting so that Mr. Cicilline can make his
presentation and ask his questions.
The gentleman is recognized.
Mr. Cicilline. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Gun violence is now the leading cause of death of children
in America and kills 40,000 Americans a year. My colleagues
vote repeatedly against even the most commonsense gun violence
prevention measures.
They vote against getting assault weapons off the streets,
despite the previous assault weapons ban that drastically
reduced gun violence. They vote against alerting people to
active shooters. They vote against safe storage and red flag
laws. They vote against community-based crime prevention
programs. They vote against background checks. The list goes on
and on.
More than that, they brought us here today to attack a
district attorney who has actually seen a decrease in violent
crime during his tenure--all because he dared to hold Donald
Trump accountable.
So, please spare me this suggestion that this is about a
sincere interest in finding solutions to crime. This is about
your agenda to earn the admiration and support and good wishes
of the former President of the United States.
I, for one, would actually like to hear about some actual
solutions to public safety and particularly to gun violence in
our communities.
That brings me to my first question: Ms. Fischer, how do
our gun laws, or lack thereof, contribute to America's gun
violence epidemic? Is the rate of gun violence in this country
and the rate of gun death comparable in any other developed
country in the world?
Ms. Fischer. Thank you, Representative.
The gun violence rate in the United States is 26 times
higher than every other high-income country. So, we are
comparatively a much more dangerous place to live. Though
violent crime--and I strongly push forward that gun violence is
violent crime and should be considered as a part of this
hearing. Violent crime is going down in New York City,
according to law enforcement's own data.
However, we could be doing so much more to ensure that New
Yorkers are protected, and all Americans are protected by
enacting comprehensive universal background checks, by having a
licensing system and requiring a permit to purchase. We could
also be banning the assault weapons that are most commonly used
in mass shootings that are killing our children every day.
Mr. Cicilline. One of the things I think that Congress has
a responsibility to look at, although we don't have
jurisdiction over State criminal prosecutions, obviously, or
local prosecutions, what is the evidence with respect to the
focus on exclusively arrests and incarceration, but how do we
prevent crimes? What are the good strategies?
Because, frankly, by the time someone is a victim of a
crime, we've already failed. Our goal should be to prevent
crime. So, what does the evidence say with respect to those two
different strategies?
Ms. Fischer. We need to be investing in prevention, largely
because there are so many guns that are being trafficked from
out of State. We need to be investing in our communities.
That's with resources toward community violence intervention
strategies and prevention programs, including in schools, more
trauma support for victims, more resources, better housing.
All those issues in terms of the inequities that are
impacting especially impoverished Black and Brown communities
in this country and in this city need to be addressed as a
public health crisis, and we need to be investing in
prevention.
Mr. Cicilline. Thank you.
With that, I yield back, Mr. Chair.
Mr. Johnson of Louisiana. [Presiding.] The gentleman yields
back.
The gentleman, Mr. Tiffany, is recognized for five minutes.
Mr. Tiffany. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Mr. DiGiacomo, would you rather have sympathy for the
police, or would you rather have respect from elected leaders?
Mr. DiGiacomo. Well, respect and sympathy. It's a very
difficult time. In my 40 years now, this is probably the most
difficult time in policing that I've ever seen. Yes, respect is
important, of course.
Mr. Tiffany. Do soft-on-crime policies lead to less gun
violence?
Mr. DiGiacomo. I believe so, yes.
Mr. Tiffany. So, you believe going soft on crime is going
to cause there to be less gun violence in your city?
Mr. DiGiacomo. No, not less. Soft on crime is going to
cause more gun violence.
Mr. Tiffany. OK. I'll State it this way then: Do soft-on-
crime policies lead to more gun violence?
Mr. DiGiacomo. Yes.
Mr. Tiffany. Ms. Harrison and Ms. Brame, the Ranking Member
said this city is safer. Is this city safer, in your mind, Ms.
Harrison?
Ms. Harrison. No. I have a lot of friends through my
advocacy that live here that are considering moving their
entire families.
Mr. Tiffany. Ms. Brame, is this city safer under District
Attorney Bragg?
Ms. Brame. Absolutely not. There are all kinds of criminal
elements roaming the street, free to do whatever they want.
Mr. Tiffany. Mr. Holden, the District Attorney's Office
conceded they used $5,000 in Federal funds, which are
authorized by us here, for purposes other than fighting violent
crime here in Manhattan.
Do you agree with the District Attorney's decision to do
that?
Mr. Holden. No, I don't. I disagree with most of what DA
Bragg is about, especially the soft on crime.
What's happened in New York City, the reason why our
crime--and it's not going down, it's going up if you look at
the trends. We have the lowest incarceration rate of any major
city in the United States. I'll repeat that: The lowest
incarceration rate of let's say 40 of the biggest cities. New
York City has the lowest. That's because Mayor de Blasio before
Mayor Adams started releasing everyone from jail.
So, of course, crime was going to go up. It skyrocketed in
2020. So, that's the reason. We still, I believe we have to
arrest more people--DA Bragg will disagree--and they should go
to jail when they commit a crime.
Mr. Tiffany. Mr. Holden, so there's this Federal funding
that comes in and it's not being used to fight violent crime.
As an elected Representative, do you view it as inappropriate
that those of us that are responsible for those dollars going
to fighting crime using Federal funds, is it inappropriate for
us to review how those dollars are being spent?
Mr. Holden. Yes, certainly we should review it, yes.
Mr. Tiffany. Mr. Holden, have you been asked to be on any
of the major networks to deliver your message? Have you been
asked, for example, to be on CNN to deliver your message?
Mr. Holden. I've been asked not from CNN, but I have been
asked on other major networks, yes.
Mr. Tiffany. You've shared those comments.
Ms. Brame, Ms. Harrison, have you been asked to be on one
of the major networks to tell your story?
Ms. Brame. Not CNN.
Mr. Tiffany. Ms. Harrison?
Ms. Harrison. No, not CNN, not MSNBC. They refuse to even
acknowledge that victims are a part of this hearing.
Mr. Tiffany. So, let's talk about--we hear percentages.
Time after time we're hearing percentages. In 2022, as a result
of a seven-percent increase in rapes, that's 110 more people
that got raped here in New York City. Those are almost all
women, I'm sure, 110. Auto theft, 3,256 more car jackings here
in New York as a result of this soft on crime. Transit crimes,
people being pushed off subways, right? Five hundred and
twenty-one more people; 521 more people. Thirty percent more,
that's 521 more people. That's what we're seeing, ladies and
gentlemen. These are real people that are being harmed.
I just want to conclude with this, Mr. Chair. I'm so glad
we're having this first hearing in New York, but I want you to
come to my State. I want you to come to Milwaukee where we had
a District Attorney, here's his quote when he started out:
Is there going to be an individual I divert or put into a
treatment program who's going to go out and kill somebody? You
bet.
Milwaukee has 10 percent of the population, and they have
25 percent of the crime.
Mr. Kessler, that's the problem is the Soros prosecutors
are not doing their job. In Wisconsin, now we've got a Soros
Supreme Court justice. The people of Wisconsin better hang on
because violent crime is going to get worse. Come to Milwaukee,
Mr. Chair, for the next hearing.
Mr. Johnson of Louisiana. The gentleman's time is expired.
Ms. Scanlon is recognized for five minutes.
Ms. Scanlon. Thank you, Mr. Johnson.
Our constituents elect us to make their lives better. They
send us to Washington to work on the issues that impact
American families, whether it's healthcare, jobs, the cost of
prescription drugs, infrastructure, clean air and water,
climate rescue and, of course, safe communities and schools.
Every day in Congress, we are seeing the right-wing
extremists who control the House failing all of us, choosing
publicity over progress, choosing politics over people, and
choosing protecting the disgraced and now-indicted former
President rather than protecting our democracy.
Today, at the urging of the former President and his
lawyers, the Chair has dragged the entire House Judiciary
Committee to New York, inserting the Federal Government into a
purely State and local matter with no credible pretense of
jurisdiction.
He's making the American taxpayer and especially the New
Yorkers who he claims to be so concerned about, making those
taxpayers pay for this foolishness. This isn't governance. It's
not working for the American people. It's grandstanding. It's a
stunt. Just look at all the cameras here. Every second of it is
preventing us from being able to do the real work that the
people who elected us expect us to do in Congress.
To our witnesses here today who shared their pain and
trauma in being victims of crime and violence, I am so sorry
for the impact that has had on you and your families. Anyone
listening to you has to be moved by what you've experienced. I
applaud your courage in trying to take that pain and move to
change things going forward.
I fear that you have been revictimized by this hearing
because this hearing is not going to provide that change. It's
not a serious effort to make our communities safer. Our
Republican colleagues aren't in New York City to prevent crime.
They're here to protect someone who's been charged with
committing crimes.
How do we know that? Look at the time, place, and manner of
this hearing. We know that the timing isn't a coincidence
because, as soon as it became obvious that the Manhattan
District Attorney was getting ready to charge Mr. Trump with
crimes, Mr. Trump's lawyers sent a letter to the Chair telling
him to use the full powers of Congress to go after the
Manhattan DA.
We know that the place is important because the choice of
place for this hearing isn't a coincidence. It's about
protecting Mr. Trump because it's being held in the city where
Mr. Trump was indicted and arrested just two weeks ago. If this
hearing were focused on fighting crime, as several people have
mentioned, there are other jurisdictions that have much higher
rates of crime.
As to the manner of this hearing, we know that it's about
protecting Mr. Trump because it's being led by the disgraced
former President's closest allies, the ones who benefit the
most if he can beat the criminal charges here in New York or if
they can intimidate the Manhattan DA or the other prosecutors
across the country who are investigating other alleged crimes.
Crime prevention is a serious topic, and it deserves
serious discussion, but that's not what this hearing is about.
Instead, we're seeing a circus, a performance by partisan
politicians who have hitched their wagons to the Trump train.
So, I and my colleagues refuse to sit idly by while
families across this country, from Alabama to Louisville to
Nashville to Uvalde to Buffalo to Boulder, while they're
mourning the loss of their loved ones to gun violence. We stand
ready to pass legislation to address the serious issues facing
all Americans if our Republican colleagues will let us.
Now, Ms. Fischer, you and several others have mentioned the
Iron Pipeline, the route through which many of the crime guns
in States like New York and Pennsylvania are acquired. Just
last year, the ATF intercepted 400 illegal guns from southern
States that were being sent to my community in Philadelphia.
Can you speak to the impact of less gun laws in States that
lack more specific gun laws, the impact that it has on gun
violence in cities like New York, Pennsylvania, and
Philadelphia?
Ms. Fischer. Absolutely. Thank you, Representative.
Because traffickers are able to easily and illegally obtain
guns in States with weak gun laws, like Florida, Georgia, or
the Carolinas, they are able to easily purchase lots of guns
and traffic them into neighborhoods that have been
disproportionately impacted by structural and systemic
inequities for decades.
We're talking about vulnerable communities that are already
lacking in access to resources. Because of that, those guns are
being used in crimes, and also because gun carrying is more
likely when people feel afraid and they are feeling more
powerful.
Chair Jordan. [Presiding.] The gentlelady's time has
expired.
Ms. Scanlon. Mr. Chair, I would just seek unanimous consent
to enter into the record a report entitled, ``Uncovering the
truth about Pennsylvania crime guns.''
Chair Jordan. Without objection.
Ms. Scanlon. Thank you.
Chair Jordan. The gentleman from Texas--
Ms. Harrison. Mr. Chair, I'm sorry. They keep addressing
us, the victims who are here to testify and make change--we're
here to effectuate change--and then not allowing us to comment
at all.
Chair Jordan. If you can hang on just a second, Ms.
Harrison. I'm sure Mr. Gooden will give you a chance to
respond. The time belongs now to Mr. Gooden. Thank you.
Mr. Gooden. Thank you.
Ms. Brame, I heard you saying how disrespectful this was. I
share your concerns. We're going to come back to you, but I'd
first like to yield to the Chair.
Chair Jordan. That's fine. I'll yield. Go to Ms. Harrison.
Mr. Gooden. Ms. Brame, I'm disgusted with what I'm seeing.
This is a serious event. We've called you all in here to share
your experience. We've been called jackbooted thugs by the
opposing party for having this hearing. It's been called
foolishness. I don't believe your stories are foolish.
We've heard from the Congressman that represents this
district just six months ago who said, quote:
You've got people randomly being shot on the subways. You've
got people randomly being thrown into car trunks and driven to
remote places and shot. There's an insecurity not felt here in
25 years.
If the local Congressman is saying that then, I don't
believe you are crazy for saying the same things. I thank you
all for being here.
Ms. Brame, you've shared so much, and we thank you. Is
there any further comments you'd like to have? We hear all the
talk about the former President from the other side. This is
not a political hearing, despite claims from the other side.
I'll give you the floor.
Ms. Brame. The only people I hear talking about politics or
President Trump is from the other side. I don't hear no one, I
don't hear any of these victims, I don't hear anyone else
talking about President Trump except from the people from the
other side. From the other side of where? The other side of the
moon? The other side of the world? The other side, whatever
that is.
Let me tell you something, victims can care less about
anyone's political ideology or party. Neither do criminals.
They don't go up to a person and ask them if they're a Democrat
or a Republican before they bust them in the head, OK, or
before they push them in front of a train, before they stab
them to death.
These are real-life people that we're dealing with. We pay
you guys. Our tax dollars pay you. You work for us. We do not
work for you.
Chair Jordan. The Committee will be in order. The Committee
will be in order. The time belongs to the gentleman from Texas.
Mr. Gooden. Ms. Brame, I want to thank you again. While the
other side wants you to stop talking, I hope you'll continue
well after today.
Ms. Brame. Absolutely, absolutely.
Mr. Gooden. Thank you. I'll yield the balance of my time to
the Chair.
Chair Jordan. I was just going to say, Ms. Harrison, are
you grandstanding?
Ms. Harrison. No. It seems like, as Madeline mentioned,
that the other side is here on taxpayer dollars. The least that
they could do is listen to our side of it, ask us questions.
They brought witnesses in to counter our horrific stories for
their agenda.
All they want to do is talk about gun legislation. Well,
you can have all the gun legislation on the books, but if it's
not enforced, which is what Alvin Bragg is doing, then it's not
going to matter, and people are going to die. That's why we're
here. I appreciate your oversight because we do need help. If
they continue to ignore it, people are going to die.
Chair Jordan. Is this Committee victimizing you, Ms. Brame,
as the Democrats said?
Ms. Brame. Absolutely not. This Committee has given me a
platform, has given me a seat at the table to be able to tell
my story and raise awareness for victims all over not just New
York City but all over this country, especially from
Philadelphia.
Chair Jordan. Ms. Fischer, if guns are the problem, why
didn't the Democrats fix it?
Ms. Fischer. The Democrats have worked hard to pass
comprehensive--
Chair Jordan. Well, they had control. They controlled all
the House and all the Senate. They still have the White House.
Why didn't they fix it last Congress? If the answer is--
Ms. Fischer. We need comprehensive gun violence prevention
legislation to be passed, and this Congress has the ability and
the capacity to do that.
Chair Jordan. I was in the Congress last session. Mr.
Nadler was the Chair.
Ms. Fischer. So, we can do it now.
Chair Jordan. They could have passed it. They didn't pass
it.
Mr. Nadler. Would the gentleman yield?
Ms. Fischer. You need Congress to go back to Washington and
pass strong gun violence prevention legislation.
Mr. Nadler. Would the gentleman yield?
Chair Jordan. No, I'm going to go to Mr. DiGiacomo.
Mr. DiGiacomo, are you grandstanding?
Mr. DiGiacomo. Not at all. Honestly, I am here--
Chair Jordan. You're representing the detectives of this
great town, right?
Mr. DiGiacomo. Absolutely, and very proud of it. I am not
here other than to ask for help. Someone just said that we
can't do anything here. Well, if the people of the U.S.
Congress can't do anything to help us, we're in a lot of
trouble because there are some powerful people around this
table that could help and stop the violence and make the
streets safer for the people of New York City and the police
officers and detectives that serve them. We're here for help.
We need help.
Chair Jordan. Thank you. I thank the gentleman from Texas,
and the gentleman yields back.
The Chair now recognizes the gentlelady from Pennsylvania,
Ms. Dean.
Ms. Dean. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I thank all the witnesses
for being here today.
Mr. Nadler. Would the gentlelady yield for a moment?
Ms. Dean. Yes, Mr. Nadler.
Mr. Nadler. Thank you. I just want to answer Mr. Jordan's
question. Last year, when we were in control, the Democrats in
the House passed very comprehensive gun control legislation.
The Democrats in the Senate voted for very comprehensive gun
control legislation. Because of the filibuster, you needed 60
votes. We got no Republican votes, and that's why it didn't
pass.
I thank the gentlelady. I yield back.
Ms. Dean. I echo the statistics that were just offered by
the Ranking Member, Mr. Nadler.
Democrats have been working to reduce crime, to reduce gun
violence crime wherever we can. Let me say everyone, I believe
everyone in this room has sympathy for the horrific stories,
the horrific losses of life, the horrific attacks, the anti-
Semitic attack on your son. We have great sympathy. We hear
you.
You are properly raising your voices. Don't let anything
that we have to say indicate that we don't think you should be
lifting your voices. There is an underlying sham going on here.
I know you don't like to hear it. Your voices are important.
Two things can be true at the same time.
We are not properly here. It is not our jurisdiction to
oversee or to interfere with an independent District Attorney's
Office. We are not properly here. This is not our jurisdiction.
I wish--
Ms. Harrison. None of us are asking you to interfere.
Chair Jordan. The gentlelady controls the time.
Ms. Dean. It is proper that you raise your voices, but it
is hypocritical that we are here. If this Committee wants to do
something about violence in this country, about the horrific
losses of life, do something. Work on legislation with us.
This weekend, two more mass shootings. Is that calling your
attention? Are you up in arms to say, what in God's name can we
do to reduce the slaughter of our children, your children, our
children?
It's the third Monday of April, and so far, this year more
than 5,000 people have been killed by gun violence; another
9,200 caught in the crossfire. Nearly 500 children and
teenagers have died because of rampant gun violence. We know
that number of families devastated, and lives forever altered
is even larger. We're only in the fourth month.
None of this is new. Hearing after hearing, one Congress to
the next, the numbers keep repeating themselves. More than 200
people a day shot; 40,000 people a year killed by guns. We know
all this. Facts are supposed to influence action. Horrifying
facts are supposed to elicit a response. Yet, my Republican
colleagues prefer gesturing about violent crime rather than
doing something about it.
I'm reminded of the character in Succession, the late Logan
Roy, said: ``You are not serious people.'' If you are serious
about doing something about violence, gun violence, and other:
. . . the House passed a universal background checks bill:
Sixty-three percent of Republican gun owners support it, yet
only eight of my Republican colleagues supported the bill; 202
of them voted against it, including every Republican Member in
this room.
Again, not serious people.
Assault weapons are the firearm of choice in mass
shootings. The Democratic House last Congress voted to ban
these weapons of war. Only two Republicans out of 211 voted for
it. Neither is in this room today. When Senate Republicans were
finally motivated to action by the horrific slaughter of babies
in Uvalde, did my Republican colleagues here join? No, not a
single one of them voted for the bipartisan Safer Communities
Act.
Make no mistake. If the concern about addressing violent
crime addressed by my Republican colleagues was genuine, they
would have acted. There would be more for us to be talking with
you about here. We're only here today because Chair Jordan and
his colleagues want to make a show of defending a former
failed, twice-impeached, crooked President.
This is not serious. Violent crime is a grave national
issue. It demands serious consideration by legislators who want
to make a difference and to save lives. That is reserved for
us.
I yield the remainder of my time to Mr. Goldman.
Mr. Borgen. Can I ask you, why isn't anybody blaming the
shooter? You're always blaming guns. No one blames the shooter.
They're crazy people. Everybody blames the guns.
Chair Jordan. The Committee will be in order. Mr. Borgen,
the Committee will be in order.
The gentlelady had I believe like 18 seconds, and she'll be
yielding to Mr. Goldman.
Mr. Goldman. Yes.
Chair Jordan. The gentleman is recognized.
Mr. Goldman. I want to be very clear to all of you, as
reflected in my statements, that we are all very, very
concerned about your stories. We are concerned about every
victim. I was a prosecutor for 10 years. Victims' rights are
essential.
What we're talking about here is something that the State
needs to deal with. The reason why we're saying this is a
political theater is that we don't have jurisdiction to do
anything about what you're concerned about. So, I just want you
to understand that.
Chair Jordan. The gentlelady's time is expired.
The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from Oregon, Mr.
Bentz.
Mr. Bentz. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Thank you for holding this
hearing.
Thank you, witnesses, for being here and sharing with us
your incredibly challenging stories.
Quote: ``The justice system is not cooperating.'' This is a
quote from one of the retailers here in your town: ``The
justice system is just not cooperating.'' It's getting to a
point where you either have to padlock every item that has to
be stolen or could be stolen or you have to fight back, and if
you fight back, you take the risk of going to jail for
protecting your property.
That's one of the reasons we're here. Here's several more
because I've heard a lot of suggestions that we're here for
reasons having nothing to do with why I'm here.
This city has 8.5 million people. That is twice what my
State has. It has 58 million people within 250 miles. It is
four million larger than our next largest city, which would be
Louisiana. It has a GDP of $1.56 trillion. This is an asset we
should be doing everything to protect, and particularly the
people within it.
Mr. Holden, drawing your attention to the next-to-last
paragraph in your testimony, it appears that you believe that
we in Congress can actually do something. You actually talk
about what we might do.
So, I would like you just to elaborate just a bit so that
people aren't thinking that we're just here for show, we can
actually do something. Can you go to that next-to-last
paragraph and share your thoughts?
Mr. Holden. Yes. When the public is not being protected,
when we fear for our safety day in and day out, we lose our
freedom. If Congress can't do something, then I don't think
anyone can.
You can do this with funding. You can do this with
certainly Federal attorneys jumping in, prosecutors. There's a
lot of things I think Congress can do. I'm here because--and as
a Democrat, I don't agree with a lot of my party's stances on
things, and I'm more of an independent person, but I've been on
six years in the city council, and they've never held a hearing
on victims' rights. They hold hearings on criminal rights and
how they're not being treated properly. I get that; that's
important to have. What about victims' rights? Six years on the
city council, on the Public Safety Committee, not one hearing.
Mr. Bentz. Mr. Holden, I'm going to interrupt, if I may.
I'm going to stick with you, though.
Because you also say in your letter--and this is a response
to Ranking Member Nadler's questions about percentages and
crime reduction, but you note in your testimony about cherry
picking of statistics. So, I want you to talk about that for
just for a second.
You note that it's easy to twist these numbers around. I'm
kind of reminded about something that was said a little
earlier, that it's easy to focus on percentages, but we should
be focusing on the real numbers, as Mr. Tiffany pointed out,
the thousands when we talk about percentages as though it's
meaningless. Tell me what you say in your letter.
Mr. Holden. It's a real thing because I have businesses,
and I have one individual who owns four gas stations in my
district. He's from Southeast Asia. He's an immigrant. He is
living the American Dream until recently, until 2019 is when
the bail reform package went through the State. He says: ``A
good day for me in my four gas stations is when I'm not held
up. We consider it a good day.''
He's losing 2,000 or 3,000 dollars a day in the four gas
stations with petty theft and being held up.
It's a serious issue. We fought to get crime--we had 17
straight years in New York city of crime reduction up until
2019, when they pushed the bail reform and discovery through
the State. Now crime is going up. Again, 13 years we've had an
increase in crime.
So, anybody cherry picking those numbers, anybody who is a
real New Yorker knows that we had low crime, and we were proud
of that. We were the safest city in the United States. Not
anymore.
Mr. Bentz. Thank you. We're just a few seconds left, and I
just want to say that I'm happy we're here in New York, but for
those of you who want to see the consequences of lax
prosecution practices, come to Portland, Oregon, and look at
what's happened to that beautiful city where I went to law
school years ago, and you can wander around in downtown
Portland without fear of anything happening. The restaurants
were great. The cultural scene was great.
In the last three years, that has changed so dramatically
it is ridiculous. If you want to see what happens when you
don't prosecute people for throwing bricks through windows,
starting fires in downtown, running everybody else out, come to
Portland. It's so incredibly sad.
I'm going to come back to New York for a moment. My last
little phrase here is, despite what you folks are enduring here
as a result of runaway progressivism, you still have these
wonderful people, the police working for you, and I'm happy for
that.
I tell you, as I sit here listening to Democrat politicians
use rampant crime and violence to justify more restrictions on
possession of firearms, I must say, please, let's turn our
attention to the good things we can do in Congress.
With that, I thank you all and yield back.
Chair Jordan. The gentleman yields back. I thank the
gentleman.
The gentleman from Maryland, Mr. Ivey, is recognized for
five minutes.
Mr. Ivey. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Just a brief response to that. I mean, yes, we're thinking
about gun control and trying to reduce gun violence, because of
Nashville and Louisville and Alabama yesterday. So, it seems to
me that it's unsustainable. We need to do something to address
it. You know, I believe the Second Amendment is important, but
I think protecting second-graders from being killed is
important as well.
Ms. Harrison, Ms. Brame, and Mr. Borgen, I want to commend
you. I was a prosecutor for 12 years, four as a Federal
prosecutor, eight as a local prosecutor in Maryland, which is
kind of the birthplace of the victims' rights movement.
So, I understand that what you're doing and the role that
you play. In fact, it really transformed the criminal justice
system in the nineties and in the 2000s, and I encourage you to
continue on. You don't need that. I can tell just by what I've
heard from you today, you're going to sustain it and keep
fighting on behalf of your loved ones, but I commend you for
what you've done.
I did want to say this with respect to whether this is
serious or not. I'm not going to look in people's hearts and
try and judge the motives for whether these hearings are
serious or not or what's behind them, but I'll say this: We've
got Republican colleagues who have introduced legislation to
eliminate the ATF, eliminate the FBI. Mr. Trump called for
defunding the Department of Justice and the FBI.
As a former Federal prosecutor, I can tell you that, if you
get rid of those three agencies, there's no Federal mechanism
or arm to actually prosecute violent crime at the Federal
level. That means terrorism. That means gangs. That means
multi-State issues.
The big takedown of the Sinaloa Cartel on Friday, I think
the reason we were able to do that was because we had a strong
Federal Government that was able to cross Federal lines and
international lines and complete those prosecutions. So, I
certainly oppose the defund the Federal law enforcement arms
that we've had discussions about.
With respect to the funding in general, I think even at the
local level the Federal Government can and has been helpful and
should be more helpful too from a funding standpoint.
I think it's right we can't really meddle in local
prosecutions per se, but funding for victims' rights, for
resources for training, for hiring and retention of police
officers, because I know police departments are competing now
for a shortage of officers, so I think it's important for us to
try and step in in that way.
I would encourage my colleagues on the other side to speak
about the specific types of proposals they would put forward at
the Federal level to address the local crime issues that you're
talking about here today because I haven't heard any so far.
With that, I'll yield the remainder of my time to Mr.
Goldman.
Mr. Goldman. Thank you, Mr. Ivey.
Mr. Borgen, I understand that your son was the victim of an
anti-Semitic attack. I'm terribly sorry to hear this. Anti-
Semitism hits all of us, regardless of party.
Now that we have recently learned that George Santos, who
not only remains in Congress but is announcing his reelection
campaign today, is not actually Jewish, the Ranking Member and
I are the only Jewish members from the entire State of New
York. We are deeply concerned about anti-Semitism in New York,
which has increased more than 400 percent in the past eight
years.
Now, today we've already heard two Members of the majority
reference what one called the Sorosization of criminal justice,
the criminal justice system, which is, of course, a reference
to George Soros, a Holocaust survivor who lived the American
Dream. Many more have said the same.
My constituents are very concerned that these smears
related to Mr. Soros-supported prosecutors are anti-Semitic. Do
you believe they're anti-Semitic?
Mr. Borgen. Well, here's my answer to that. I know Soros is
Jewish. He can't be anti-Semitic. I can't believe that,
especially--
Mr. Goldman. No, what people say when they use Soros.
Mr. Borgen. Soros is politics. He's just a liberal lefty
politician. I don't think it has nothing to do with what his
beliefs are. What he wants to create, whatever he wants to
create, it's his business.
Mr. Goldman. All right. I appreciate that. I don't have a
lot of time, I'm sorry.
Mr. Borgen. Mark Levin, who just got elected from Lower
Manhattan, got a petition signed with 29 signatures protesting
this conference. I don't know if you're aware of it.
Mr. Goldman. Can I just reclaim my time, because I only
have 20 seconds.
I want to mention that when I was walking in here today,
there was a man outside with a sign. I would just like to hold
this sign up.
Mr. Borgen. I saw it.
Mr. Goldman. You saw it, right? There's a Star of David
with two-dollar signs and Soros.
Mr. Borgen. That's disgusting.
Mr. Goldman. Would you say that's anti-Semitic?
Mr. Borgen. It's 100 percent anti-Semitic, and it's
disgusting.
Mr. Goldman. Right.
Mr. Borgen. It's disgusting.
Mr. Goldman. I yield back my time.
Chair Jordan. The gentleman yields back.
The Chair now recognizes the gentleman from Virginia, Mr.
Cline.
Mr. Cline. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I want to echo the comments from Mr. Holden. Your
allegiance is to your constituents. Each one of us is here
because of our constituents. Our allegiance is to our
constituents as well.
My constituents live in the Shenandoah Valley of Virginia.
It feels about as far away from New York City sometimes as you
can get. The floor that I was on in my hotel last night was
taller than any building in my entire home county, Botetourt
County.
Our hearts are with the people of New York City. Our hearts
are with the victims of these crimes that are being committed
against the people of New York City. Every crime has a victim.
It's not just about numbers. It's about real people, as Mr.
Tiffany was saying.
We are hearing some of the stories. I want to thank you all
for being brave to come here and share your stories with us.
We're grateful to you. My constituents are scared because
they're watching what's happening in New York City, and they
know that the Shenandoah Valley, if they adopt the wrong
policies, if they elect the wrong prosecutors, their lives
could turn for the worse and their cities and counties could be
full of crime as well.
The policies that have been adopted in New York City are
policies that were just adopted in Virginia. When Democrats
took over the House and Senate and the Governor's Mansion
between 2019-2021, they reversed policies that were put in
place in 1995 that abolished parole, instituted mandatory
minimum sentences and presumptions against bail. Those are all
gone now.
We're worried, quite frankly, in Virginia, because we see
the impact of those policies here in New York, along with the
falling apart of what I consider to be a three-legged stool.
When it comes to the fight against crime, you need three legs
of a stool: You need police who are going to arrest, you need
prosecutors who are going to prosecute, and you need judges who
are going to put people in jail.
Here in New York, you don't have those three legs. I'll let
you decide how many legs you have and how strong those are.
When you get rid of the policies like a presumption against
bail that we got rid of in Virginia, like the bail policies
that you have here, the ending of cash bail here in New York
City, it's like termites eating away at that stool.
So, no matter how strong you have in terms of your mayor,
who's a former police chief, or your police chief now, if you
lose those legs or if you have the stool being eaten away, you
see the spike in crime that's happened. We have a spike in
crime here in New York City: 1,500 rapes, up seven percent,
robberies up 26 percent, felony assaults up 13 percent,
burglaries up 23 percent, grand larcenies up 26 percent, auto
thefts up 32 percent, all accounting for a 23-percent increase
in major crimes in just the last year.
So, you have a problem in New York, one that we're afraid
could spread to other places, like my area of Virginia. We
talked about the use of taxpayer dollars.
Ms. Brame, you talked about the lack of services that you
received. So, we inquired about how many taxpayer dollars go to
New York City and to Alvin Bragg's office. The DA's Office
receives $204,730 in Federal grant money during current award
period from the Department of Justice's Justice Assistance
Grant Program, which is subgranted to the city of New York,
goes toward addressing violent and other felony crimes in our
jurisdiction.
More interestingly and more to your point, the DA's Office
received $583,111 in Federal grant money yearly this past year
from the Victims of Crime Victim and Witness Assistance Grant
Program, which is subgranted through the New York State Office
of Victim Services. Use of these funds is to be used to provide
information to victims and their families related to the
prosecution of cases and assisting victims with understanding
the criminal justice system. Over half a million dollars
sitting in Alvin Bragg's office to help people like you.
Do you feel like you got help from Alvin Bragg as the case
was going forward?
Ms. Brame. No, I received no help from his office. Me and
my family, we were treated like garbage. I can't describe it
any more than what I have already. It was the most horrific
experience that I've ever experienced. It was just bad.
Mr. Cline. Were you alerted? When the plea deals were cut
for two of those offenders, were you alerted to those plea
deals when they were cut?
Ms. Brame. No.
Mr. Cline. Were you allowed to put a victim statement into
the record?
Ms. Brame. Not for Mary Saunders, not upon her sentencing.
For Travis Stewart, I did and for the other two. They dismissed
those gang assault and those murder indictments behind my back.
Mr. Cline. That's abhorrent and did not do justice to you
or to the son that you lost, and we apologize.
Ms. Brame. Not at all, not at all.
Mr. Cline. I yield back.
Chair Jordan. The gentleman yields back.
Before recognizing the gentleman from New York, I see we're
joined by one of our other colleagues, the gentlelady from here
in New York City, Staten Island.
Ms. Malliotakis, thank you for joining us and for your
concern about what's happening here.
We now recognize, pursuant to the agreement reached with
Mr. Nadler's staff, the gentleman from New York for 2\1/2\
minutes.
Mr. Espaillat. Thank you, Mr. Chair, again, and thank you,
Mr. Johnson for giving me some previous time.
I want to continue my previous statement. Back in the late
eighties and nineties, this was a tough town. It was tough to
live here. Crime was really very violent. As I said earlier,
during that period, I had the opportunity to work for a victim
services agency, providing services for crime victims. I was
also the president of a 34-precinct community council.
If there's one thing that I really learned during those two
decades was that you cannot really simply talk about crime
without talking about guns. You just can't do it because 80
percent of the homicides are committed by guns. Now, we're not
minimizing the other 20 percent. They're also equally
important. Eighty percent are committed by guns.
This past Easter Sunday, a young man gets shot and killed
on 137th Street, not too far from where Mr. Alba used to work.
Why? A gun. Just this weekend in Alabama, just this weekend,
this Saturday, four people shot and killed. With what? A gun. A
shooter in a Louisville bank kills five people. With what? With
a gun. The horrific elementary school shooting in Tennessee
that left six people killed, including three children. With
what? With a gun. Some of my colleagues after that shooting
wore their AR-15 pins on their lapels and tie clips--I think
mocking the death of those innocent kids.
So, a gun is the common denominator in eight out of 10
homicides. How can we take that away? We cannot do that. We
must continue to fight for commonsense gun law. You know why?
I'll ask you all that are here today. You want to find out why
guns are not being talked about? Follow the money. Follow the
money.
Go into each and every one of our campaign accounts and
figure out who's getting money from the NRA. Just follow the
money. That's a phrase that's usually used on a common basis
here in New York City. Very simple. Who is the NRA supporting?
Chair Jordan. The gentleman's time has expired. The
gentleman yields back.
The gentleman from South Carolina, Mr. Fry, is recognized.
Mr. Fry. Thank you, Mr. Chair. I want to thank you for
holding this hearing today in one of the most iconic cities in
the world, New York City.
I want to especially thank the witnesses, the victims, for
your bravery today. It's not easy to come here to talk about
this in the public square, but thank you for doing that.
When people think of the United States, they think of this
city, as was talked about earlier. If you can make it here, you
can make it anywhere. Underneath all of those twinkling lights,
something is not right in New York City. Shootings in Times
Square, robberies in broad daylight, stabbings on the subway.
I got into a cab yesterday. The gentleman who was driving
had been doing it for 25 years. Without knowing who I was or
why I was here, he proceeded to talk about the city. He said:
``This city has changed.''
I asked him what he meant by that. He immediately started
talking about the crime: ``It's gotten so bad. It's out of
control.''
This, unfortunately, is what we get in Joe Biden's America
and Alvin Bragg's New York City. To the good people of New
York, we hear you. We are here in New York today because we
want to hear from you, and we hope that your local leaders
start to listen to you as well.
When the hearing was first noticed, the District Attorney
released a statement that we were coming to the, and I quote,
``safest big city in America and that this hearing was a
political stunt.''
You want to know the real political stunt? Politicians in
New York and other places continually pushing failed policies,
despite knowing that they don't work. Let's talk about this for
a second.
According to the New York Police Department, in Alvin
Bragg's first year in public office in 2022, rapes are up seven
percent, felony assaults rose 13 percent, robberies spiked 26
percent, burglaries were up 23 percent, grand larcenies up 26
percent, auto theft has risen 32 percent. There were 170
felonies in New York City in 2022 alone, the most since 2006.
Does that sound like the safest big city in America? I think
not.
The question is why? New York State eliminated cash bail
for most crimes, tying the hands of judges and law enforcement.
Alvin Bragg's ``Day 1 Memo,'' which outlined his office's
position that he would not prosecute certain types of crimes.
In addition, rather than approach each case on the facts of the
offense committed, his office is focused on how much money you
make, your circumstances, or your immigration status before
deciding whether to charge a crime. Of course, as was already
talked about, defunding $1 billion out of the New York Police
Department's budget.
Fifty-two percent of felony charges are downgraded to
misdemeanors in this District Attorney's Office, the highest
number in years. Of the felonies they actually decide to
prosecute, his office was only successful in securing the
conviction on 50 percent of those, the lowest number in years.
On misdemeanors, 29 percent of misdemeanor charges resulted in
conviction.
If you listen to the District Attorney, he sounds and acts
more like a public defender than a prosecutor. If you want to
defend criminals, be a public defender. If you want to change
policy, run for the State assembly.
Instead of partnering with the New York Police Department
to prosecute these crimes, he seems hostile. It's no wonder
that officers in the New York Police Department are resigning
at a record rate. According to a recent article by the New York
Post, there is a 117-percent increase in cops resigning in 2022
alone. That's the most since right after 9/11.
Regarding New York's bail law, the John Jay College of
Criminal Justice found that approximately 72 percent of violent
felony offenders who were released without bail were re-
arrested.
Recidivism is so bad in New York that 327 individuals were
arrested for more than 6,000 crimes of retail theft. That's not
giving somebody a second chance. That's letting them do the
same thing over and over again to about 20 times and still
letting them off the hook. If at first you don't succeed, try,
try again. Maybe the 21st time they'll wake up.
From an interview in January, District Attorney Bragg said
he knows what's going on in the streets. Does he? It doesn't
sound like it.
Ms. Brame, I want to start with you and then to the other
victims. Who benefits more in this city, law-abiding citizens
or criminals?
Ms. Brame. Can you repeat that, please?
Mr. Fry. Who benefits more in this city, law-abiding
citizens or criminals?
Ms. Brame. Oh, absolutely criminals, 100 percent.
Mr. Fry. Ms. Harrison?
Ms. Harrison. The criminals.
Mr. Fry. Mr. Borgen, the same question?
Mr. Borgen. Unfortunately, it's the criminals who are
getting all the perks.
Mr. Fry. Ms. Brame, have you spoken to the District
Attorney about your son's case?
Ms. Brame. Absolutely not, no response.
Mr. Fry. If you could speak to him today about it, what
would you say?
Ms. Brame. I would demand that he reopen that gang assault
and that murder case against Mary Saunders and Travis Stewart.
If no one is above the law, prove it. Prove it by prosecuting
them. Bring that case to trial.
Mr. Fry. Thank you for your time today.
Mr. Chair, I yield back.
Chair Jordan. The gentleman yields back.
The gentleman from New York is recognized for 2\1/2\
minutes.
Mr. Goldman. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Ms. Brame, you said earlier that you are only hearing about
Donald Trump from one side and not the other. I want to tell
you that's very, very intentional because they know that they
are using taxpayer money to defend a private citizen in his own
criminal investigation and that is an abuse of their power.
The day before this investigation began, public reporting
revealed that Donald Trump and his legal team directed House
Republicans to initiate an investigation into Alvin Bragg.
They're now scrambling to justify this investigation with
after-the-fact explanations, including the preposterous
explanation that he spent $5,000 of Federal money on this
years-long investigation. They have spent many multiples of
that amount of money on this hearing alone to hold it in
Manhattan.
Now, I've asked the Chair and other Members of House
leadership to tell the American public what kind of collusion
they have been doing with Donald Trump to use the power of this
Committee and of this Congress to interfere in this
prosecution. They have thus far refused. We will learn about
that collusion because the Manhattan District Attorney has a
lawsuit against the Chair, and they will be able to compel
disclosure of the communication and coordination as part of
that lawsuit. That's why we are here, and that's what we want
to emphasize to you.
We're not insulting you. Your experiences are devastating.
The problem is, is that this is a charade to cover up for an
abuse of power that they are going around talking incessantly
outside of this hearing about Donald Trump, and the purpose of
this hearing is to cover up for what they know to be an
inappropriate investigation.
Now, I look forward--many of you in New York City--
Ms. Brame. Can I respond to you, please?
Mr. Goldman. Not right now, because I only have 20 seconds.
I'm sorry. I do want--
Ms. Brame. Don't insult my intelligence, that you're not
going to do.
Chair Jordan. Hang on. The gentleman's time.
Ms. Brame. You're trying to insult me like I'm not aware of
what's going on here, OK? I'm fully aware of what's going on
here. OK?
Chair Jordan. The gentlelady will suspend.
The gentleman gets another 15 seconds.
Mr. Goldman. Thank you.
Ms. Brame. That's why I walked away from the plantation of
the Democratic Party.
Chair Jordan. The Committee will be in order.
Mr. Goldman. Ms. Brame, what I was about to say is that, as
a Representative of this city, I'm looking forward to working
with you, with Ms. Harrison, Mr. Holden, Mr. Borgen, all of you
who are involved and engaged in our criminal justice system
because, as I said and my colleagues have referenced, we do
have a problem not only in New York City but around the
country.
Chair Jordan. The gentleman's time has expired.
Mr. Goldman. So, hopefully we can work together--
Chair Jordan. The gentleman yields back.
Mr. Goldman. --to reach real solutions, not charades like
this. I yield back.
Chair Jordan. The gentlelady from New York, Ms. Stefanik,
is recognized for five minutes.
Ms. Stefanik. As a native New Yorker, born and bred, I
think it's important to note that many of the Democrats on this
Committee have smeared brave victims and fellow New Yorkers
here today, calling them ``props,'' a ``circus,'' a
``performance,'' ``MAGA Broadway props,'' and an ``underlying
sham.''
What have Republicans focused on? We've focused on giving
victims a voice. We've focused on crimes.
We've focused on your story as a father visiting your son
at the hospital, seeing his face beaten in with an anti-Semitic
hate crime.
We're focused, Ms. Brame, on your story as a mother
grieving the loss--rightfully grieving the loss and advocating
on behalf of your son and his legacy.
Ms. Harrison, we heard your story about losing your loved
one.
Mr. Alba, we heard your story, just the personal challenges
you face dealing with the consequences of the vicious crime
committed, perpetrated against you.
In addition to House Democrats belittling the victims here
today, Democrats have politicized this hearing, mentioning
Donald Trump 38 times. That number for Republicans is zero. We
are focused on victims and making sure that we support law and
order in this country.
There is a catastrophic crime crisis across America,
specifically in our great cities and great cities like New
York. New Yorkers know it. Americans know it.
While Democrats on this committee may claim that New York
is not the epicenter, look no further than the last November
election where we flipped four Congressional seats, delivering
the House majority. What was the number-one issue? It was
crime. Because voters are smart. The people are smart.
Mr. DiGiacomo, as a member--as a longtime member of law
enforcement, I wanted to get your testimony today. How long
have you served in law enforcement?
Mr. DiGiacomo. Approximately 40 years.
Ms. Stefanik. In those 40 years, would you say the crime
crisis today is worse than you've ever seen it?
Mr. DiGiacomo. That's correct.
Ms. Stefanik. Crime is up.
Is it fair to say it is a result of failed bail reform
policies in Albany and Alvin Bragg's ``Day 1 Memo''?
Mr. DiGiacomo. One hundred percent.
Ms. Stefanik. Here are some important numbers. In 2022,
District Attorney Bragg's first year as DA, New York City saw a
23 percent surge in major crimes. Is that true?
Mr. DiGiacomo. That's correct.
Ms. Stefanik. From 2019-2022, murders are up 93 percent.
Mr. DiGiacomo. That's correct.
Ms. Stefanik. From 2019-2022, robberies are up 43 percent.
Mr. DiGiacomo. Correct.
Ms. Stefanik. Felony assaults are up 32 percent.
Mr. DiGiacomo. Correct.
Ms. Stefanik. It's fair to say that law enforcement
strongly opposed Bragg's ``Day 1 Memo'' and failed bail reform
policies in Albany?
Mr. DiGiacomo. One hundred percent.
Ms. Stefanik. Mr. DiGiacomo, in fact, you have said, quote,
Bragg gives criminals the roadmap to freedom from prosecution
and control of our streets. In Bragg's Manhattan, you can
[resist] arrest, deal drugs, obstruct arrest, and even carry a
gun to get away with it.
Can you please expound about why law enforcement opposes
Alvin Bragg's ``Day 1'' policy and opposes failed bail reform?
Mr. DiGiacomo. Well, because, again, every time a detective
or a police officer puts himself or herself in harm's way
arresting a felon or anyone for any crime, they're released
immediately with no consequences.
Ms. Stefanik. Mr. Borgen, as a family member of a victim of
a heinous violent crime, your son, as you talked about, was a
victim of a violent anti-Semitic hate crime committed at a pro-
Israel event. Your son was jumped, beaten, and sprayed with
mace.
In fact--and I think it's important for the American people
and my colleagues across the aisle to hear this--your son
describes this as,
A whole crowd of people proceeded to kick me, punch me, beat me
down. I felt a liquid being poured on my face, and, at first, I
thought I was getting urinated on, but it turned out I was
getting maced and pepper sprayed. My face was on fire. That
pain was worse than the concussion and all this other stuff
that followed.
Yet, the attacker said, ``If I could do it again, I would do it
again.'' Yet, District Attorney Alvin Bragg gave him a
sweetheart deal.
What is your message to District Attorney Alvin Bragg?
Mr. Borgen. Well, the man is incompetent, obviously, in the
big scheme of things. Unfortunately, our hands are tied. He can
come to us--he offered him other deals; my son did not accept
them.
Right now, the court case is pending, and different deals
are passing on from back and forth, but between me and you, I
lost faith in the justice system with Alvin Bragg. I don't feel
anything's going to get done. Like in the other cases also, her
son's attackers walking around scot-free like nothing happened.
It's a disgrace.
I just want to say to you, Mr. Ivey, I compliment you.
You're the only one who sat here on the Democratic side, didn't
bring up Donald Trump. You're a mensch. You talk straight. You
didn't look to make partisan politics here. I want to
compliment you.
Ms. Stefanik. Ms. Harrison, what's your message to Alvin
Bragg?
Ms. Harrison. I'm a walking example of not ever being
whole, 18 years after losing a loved one under horrific
circumstances and not seeing justice. My life will never, ever
be complete without Kevin.
Knowing that the murderers' families are walking free,
spending Christmases and Easters with their family--it's beyond
comprehension.
So, I hope that he will pay attention to what's happening
here today and realize the effect that he's having on survivors
of homicide victims for the rest of their lives.
Ms. Stefanik. Thank you to the victims for the bravery,
sharing their stories.
Thank you to our former law enforcement officers for your
leadership.
Yield back.
Chair Jordan. The gentlelady yields back.
Just to the witnesses, now we'll just be on this side. I
think the Democrats have all went. It's about 40 more minutes.
If you've got to step out, just please let us know, but we want
every member to get a chance to talk to you. If you need to
step out, please excuse yourself, and Capitol Police will make
sure you know where you're going out there.
With that, I yield five minutes to the gentleman from
Texas, Mr. Roy.
Mr. Roy. I thank the Chair.
Much has been made about why we are in New York City. In a
memorable moment shortly before he was elected, former Mayor
Rudolph Giuliani told an editorial board meeting he cared about
statistics, but the real measure would be whether people
actually feel safer. That, he said, ``was the ultimate test to
policing and political leadership.''
He said that in 1993, when New York was averaging 2,000
murders a year. By 2013, it was down to 333 due to the strong
support of law enforcement and the anti-crime policies adopted
by the city. It got down to 288 by 2018, but now it is back up
to the mid-400s.
I think this is the question: Whether or not you feel safe.
The question I'd ask of Ms. Brame, Ms. Harrison, others: Do you
feel safe in New York City right now?
Ms. Brame. No.
Ms. Harrison. No.
Mr. Roy. Mr. Alba, do you feel safe in New York City?
The Interpreter. He said, ``At this moment, no.''
Mr. Roy. All right.
Mr. DiGiacomo, your history in law enforcement. You said
it's as unsafe as you've ever seen it, today, in New York.
Mr. DiGiacomo. Yes, that's correct.
Mr. Roy. Isn't that the ultimate measure? Isn't that the
question?
I think one of the things that I think merits focusing on
is the question that my colleagues on the other side of the
aisle have been talking about in terms of jurisdiction. What is
the jurisdiction here?
Mr. DiGiacomo, are you familiar with 922(g) and 924(c) in
the Federal Code?
Mr. DiGiacomo. No, I'm not. I'm sorry.
Mr. Roy. The 922(g) being felons in possession, 924(c)
being the ability to be able to go after somebody and give them
a heightened sentencing for their use of firearms in crimes.
My question here--
[Disturbance in hearing room.]
Mr. Roy. If we might suspend.
Ms. Hageman. [Presiding.] The Committee will suspend.
The gentleman is recognized to continue.
Mr. Roy. All right. So, we're back on.
The 922(g) and 924(c), these are Federal crimes, right?
They're Federal crimes that--we have programs like Project Safe
Neighborhoods that work with local law enforcement where we
have the United States Attorney's Office in coordination to try
to combat crime and the use of firearms in crimes.
Now, I suppose we could go through and look at the laundry
list of legislation that my colleagues on the other side of the
aisle have introduced to repeal said Federal laws, that these
Federal laws should not exist. If we want to have a debate
about federalism, about that, I'm happy to have it. We're not
doing that, are we? Because that's not what this is about. It's
about show.
The fact is, we do have Federal laws on the books to go
after criminal misuse of firearms, but they're not being
enforced, and they're also not being enforced at the local
level. Those are the facts. The facts are we are letting
criminals out of jail.
If you look at the data, the data is clear. The average
criminal has 11 prior arrests, five criminal exhibitions.
Seventy-seven percent have five-plus prior arrests.
Ms. Hageman. We need the crowd to be quiet, please.
Thank you.
Mr. Roy. Seventy-four percent have prior violent arrests.
Thirty percent have prior arrests for guns and weapon offenses.
Even though these individuals have lengthy criminal records, 52
percent served a year or less. Sixty percent are re-arrested
within two years of release. The fact is, we have a recidivism
problem.
We have now gone down the road of decarceration. Hundreds
of thousands of criminals have been released. Just since 2020,
the incarcerated population is down about 300,000, when it was
2.1 million, which, by the way, was pretty far down from the
levels when we had the safest numbers and the safest streets in
this city.
This isn't about some libertarian world view of letting out
a few potheads who are allegedly rotting in jail. Eighty-eight
percent of prisoners are incarcerated in State systems for
murder, rape, robbery, and assault. That's responsible for most
of those sentences. A mere 14 percent are in custody primarily
for narcotic offenses, and the vast majority of these are
felony trafficking crimes and misdemeanor possession.
My question is for you, Mr. DiGiacomo: Do you think that we
have a problem with the gun issue, or do you think we have a
problem with letting criminals out on the streets?
Mr. DiGiacomo. Well, the criminals are being let out at an
alarming rate.
I just want to make it clear here that the guns--I'm
speaking for New York City--the guns that are being used here
in New York City are illegal guns. They're illegal guns that
are brought here into New York City and being used to victimize
the people of New York City.
Mr. Roy. Are they being prosecuted heavily by the DA here?
Mr. DiGiacomo. No, they're not.
Mr. Roy. Right. Isn't that the problem?
Mr. DiGiacomo. That is a major problem.
Mr. Roy. Are they being prosecuted in coordination with the
United States Attorney's Office, using 922(g) and 924(c) to
prosecute them?
Mr. DiGiacomo. Not that I'm aware of, no.
Mr. Roy. Right. Isn't that fundamentally the problem?
Mr. DiGiacomo. Correct.
Mr. Roy. The question I have--my colleagues on the other
side of the aisle have mentioned former President Trump a
number of times.
I would just ask, was it former President Trump, Ms. Brame,
that killed your son?
Ms. Brame. No.
Mr. Roy. Ms. Harrison, was it former President Trump that
killed your loved ones?
Ms. Harrison. No.
Mr. Roy. Was it former President Trump that stabbed Mr.
Alba?
Mr. Alba. No.
Mr. Roy. Was it former President Trump that prosecuted Mr.
Alba, prosecuted him for defending himself?
Mr. Alba. No.
Mr. Roy. No.
I yield back.
Ms. Hageman. The Chair recognizes the Representative from
Texas, Mr. Nehls.
Mr. Nehls. Thank you, Chair.
All right. Check, check. Am I on? All right.
As a former law enforcement officer for 30 years, sheriff
of a large county in the great State of Texas, what I seen
happening in our country is disturbing and should be of concern
to all of us.
Crime is at an all-time high. The American people can't
trust their government. The left wants to defund the police
because of law enforcement shootings where police acted
inappropriately, and those officers were rightly charged and
sentenced.
What we saw in 2020 with riots, rioting across our country,
led to numerous attacks on law enforcement and citizens, with
hundreds of millions of dollars in damage to buildings.
The left will rally their troops, they'll rally them,
they'll get them all together in the name of social justice,
but little is being made of the hundreds of victims of crime in
Chicago and New York and other large cities run by liberals,
because the victims and suspects of those crimes are
predominantly Black and, in those cases, Black lives don't
matter. They don't matter.
Shame on them and the dishonest media. The dishonest media
is the greatest threat, folks. You in the back, you are the
greatest threat to this country. We've seen it, and the
American people know it.
Most people on the left, if not in this room, you've heard
of Eric Garner. I'm sure you've heard of him. You've heard of
George Floyd. You've heard of Trayvon Martin and Michael Brown.
You've heard of all those names. What about the hundreds of
innocent victims in Chicago, Philadelphia, and Baltimore?
You'll never hear their names. You'll never hear their names.
Shameful.
If you've watched the news lately, it's no shocker, Alvin
Bragg likes to prosecute. He's even a fan of increasing
misdemeanors to felonies for certain individuals he doesn't
like. Some of those individuals--he said, ``he's the greatest
danger to our country.''
Mr. Bragg, I hope you're watching. I hope you're watching
today, sir. You're a disgrace. You're a danger to this country.
I will do everything I can in my power to hold you accountable.
Your job, Mr. Bragg, is to protect the residents here in
Manhattan. Decreasing felonies to misdemeanors--decreasing
felonies to misdemeanors is dangerous and places the victim
last.
Mr. Kessler, I'll start with you. You worked for Senator
Schumer and other Members on crime policy. That's great. So, I
want to get your perspective on this ``Day 1 Memo.'' You're
familiar--are you familiar with this?
Mr. Kessler. I am not.
Mr. Nehls. You're not familiar with this ``Day 1 Memo,''
and you've come here today? I should provide you a copy.
According to the Manhattan DA, the aim of the ``Day 1
Memo'' is to reduce Manhattan's over-incarceration issue and to
deliver safety and fairness for all.
So, I ask you--you're familiar--you're not familiar with
the memo. The ``Day 1 Memo'' stated: The DA's office will not
prosecute minor offenses that, quote, ``have no impact on
public safety,'' end quote. So, let's talk about some of the
things Alvin Bragg considers minor offenses.
Resisting arrest. Can you tell me how not prosecuting this
makes New York safer? Resisting arrest.
Mr. Kessler. I'd have to see--
Mr. Nehls. We're not going to prosecute it in New York.
Mr. Kessler. OK.
Mr. Nehls. We're not going to do it.
Mr. Kessler. All right.
Mr. Nehls. We're not going to do it.
Did you ever ask law enforcement?
Mr. DiGiacomo, how do you feel about that? How do your law
enforcement officers feel about not prosecuting resisting
arrest?
Mr. DiGiacomo. They weren't happy about it, that's for
sure.
Mr. Nehls. You wonder why 1,400 officers left New York PD
in 2022. Why in the hell would you work here? I'd go out into
the suburbs, where you can go out there and fight crime and be
respected. You're not getting that in these large cities such
as Manhattan.
You want to defund NYPD a billion dollars in 2020, and you
wonder why we are in the State of Emergency we are in.
Mr. Bragg laid out five sections of law that covers armed
robberies and says, New York will not prosecute them. In short,
according to this memo, if you hold a gun to a clerk's face and
ask, ``Empty the trash''--``Empty the cash register, sir,'' we
are going to take that and that's going to be a misdemeanor, no
big deal. That's no big deal.
How do you feel about that, Mr. Kessler? What if I come
over there and I put my pistol and screw it in your ear, and I
don't say anything bad to you, and we're just going to say,
``Mr. Nehls, that's just a misdemeanor here in the great State
of New York''?
Mr. Kessler. Well, that has happened to me.
Mr. Nehls. Well, sad, isn't it? How'd you feel about that?
Mr. Kessler. I was pretty scared.
Mr. Nehls. Pretty scared.
Mr. Kessler. Yes.
Mr. Nehls. We're going to consider that a misdemeanor here
in the great New York.
It's unacceptable. It's disgraceful. I wish I had more
time.
Ms. Hageman. Thank you.
The Chair recognizes the Congressman from Wisconsin, Mr.
Fitzgerald.
Mr. Fitzgerald. Thank you, Madam Chair.
Pretrial release decisions. New York State law requires an
annual report of pretrial release decisions made by New York
City courts. The latest data, released in September 2022, shows
the statistics of pretrial release granted to individuals
across all categories of offense between 2019-2021. Here's a
few takeaways from that.
Since New York City repealed cash bail for certain
nonviolent felonies in 2019, the instances of imposing bail
have decreased across all categories of offense, including
violent felonies.
Release was granted in more than 75 percent of nonviolent
felony cases in 2021. Of those released, 40 percent went on to
commit another crime within 180 days, with 10 percent of those
being violent felonies.
In those cases where bail was actually set, which in 2021
was about 12,000 cases, more than 3,700 of those had bail set
at $1.
I wanted to highlight those statistics for a couple of
reasons. The first is to show that weak bail policies in New
York City do, in fact, have an effect on violent crime.
Thousands of violent felony offenders are being released under
their own reconnaissance or, in some cases, like I said, for a
dollar and then within six months are back in front of the same
judge.
Then the second is to say that the pretrial release
statistics play an important role in helping the public and
Congress, actually, understand whether a State's bail policies
are contributing to a spike in violent crime.
So, I'd ask this, and I'd ask Congress, that we should take
up a bill, a bill that we've worked on in past Congresses, the
Pretrial Release Reporting Act, so we can see how other States'
bail policies are contributing to really an epidemic that's
nationwide right now.
So, Ms. Harrison, I was going to ask you, can you just
comment, in general, on pretrial release statistics and the
issues related to that not just in New York but nationwide?
Ms. Harrison. As you mentioned, we see it across the board,
all over the news, that people are killed or victimized by
people that are released under pretrial least restrictive
conditions--bail reform, cashless bail, and whatever you want
to call it.
We have over 305 people that are dead in New York because
of bail reform. Christina Lee was murdered here in New York by
somebody that was on supervised release, which really is
nonexistent.
So, across the board, across the country, it's awful, and
it's victimizing people.
Mr. Fitzgerald. Thank you.
Mr. DiGiacomo, I just wanted to get your opinion on how
these types of pretrial decisions erode the relationship
between law enforcement and the District Attorney's Office.
Mr. DiGiacomo. Well, I've always remembered the police and
the District Attorney's Office worked together to help the
victims of crime. I don't see that happening in Manhattan, and
it's caused more people to die.
Mr. Fitzgerald. It's got to be disheartening for officers
on the street to go out, do their job on a daily basis, make
the arrests, do the right thing, put their lives at stake, and
then find out on the back end that the DA didn't follow through
on either prosecuting or--at the end of the day, kind of a slap
in the face when you find out that they were released on a $1
decision?
Mr. DiGiacomo. Well, absolutely. Like I said earlier, every
time you engage the criminal element, you're putting your life
in harm's way.
Mr. Fitzgerald. Very good.
Thank you.
Chair Jordan. [Presiding.] I thank--
Mr. Nehls. Can I take--
Chair Jordan. Yep. Yep.
Mr. Fitzgerald. I yield to the gentleman from Texas.
Mr. Nehls. Thank you.
When I think of victims of crime, being a sheriff, having
to deal with it pretty much all my life, and I think about an
individual having to protect himself, and when you have some
type of a knucklehead--we've got one over here on this poster
board--Mr. Alba, you had to deal with this guy's in your face,
I felt and you felt scared, didn't you?
Did you feel this guy was going to possibly kill you?
Mr. Alba. Yes.
Mr. Nehls. Maybe cause serious bodily injury, if not death?
Mr. Alba. Yes.
Mr. Nehls. Then you have a right--you have a right, as an
American citizen, to use deadly force, sir, and eliminate that
threat. You have a right to do that.
Everybody in this room would agree with that, wouldn't you?
I mean, when is it OK in America--
Mr. Goldman. Would the gentleman yield for a minute--for a
second, sir? Will you yield over here?
Mr. Nehls. No.
When is it--when can we look--if somebody puts a knife to
you or a clerk at a cashier anywhere in this country and he's
threatening to say, ``I'm going to kill you if you don't give
your money,'' I would encourage the residents in the great
State of Texas in my county to defend yourself. Defend
yourself. You are given that God-given right. That means
pulling out a weapon and put two at center mass. You'll reduce
recidivism, won't you? You won't have a repeat offender.
Chair Jordan. The gentleman's time has expired.
The gentlelady from Indiana, Ms. Spartz, is recognized.
Ms. Spartz. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I'm a person that always believed that the greatest of our
country is the freedoms and greatness of our people. As someone
who came from a communist country, it appalled me, what's
happened in our country. I'm sad that unfortunately the
Congress became a circus and charade.
Unfortunately, what's happened in your district is also a
circus and charade. I appreciate people being here--Mr. Alba,
Ms. Harrison, and Ms. Brame--and actually sharing your personal
story, and I apologize on behalf of the Congress.
I also appreciate Mr. Holden sitting here and actually
willing to challenge your own party. I actually do it quite a
lot. A lot of people in your party don't have that strength,
and I hope we can see more of that.
On the way here, one of my constituents texted me. We had a
police officer suicide; we had a police officer killed in the
district last year. We have a serious problem with our criminal
justice system.
Our government was stood up to protect people's rights to
life, liberty, and property, and it's not doing it. People
playing politics. It is one of the core functions, and this
Committee has that function.
So, I appreciate Mr. Chair actually having a field hearing.
I actually appreciate my Democrat colleagues showed up this
time. Because I hope we'll do more, because my city of
Indianapolis has higher murder rates than city of Chicago, and
we have a Democrat prosecutor. He is not enforcing the crimes--
the laws.
The problem with what we have right now--and I actually
agree with Mr. Goldman and Ms. Lofgren about jurisdiction. It's
a challenge. I want to hear what we can do, what we should be
doing. I hope we will have more discussion about jurisdiction,
because we're overreaching significantly on the States' rights.
As a former State Senator, I have huge problem with that.
I also agree with--at least appreciate Mr. Ivey said, ``You
know what? It's all about gun control.'' At least he's honest,
OK? Not, like, do all these talking points.
Like, I was listening to TV this morning. They already say,
oh, OK, media came, talking about all the--I honestly don't
give about him. I actually care what is happening in this
country. I think it's important for us to hear from ``we the
people'' because people are not heard and there is no lobby for
the people in Washington, DC. So, hopefully you decide to be
more active in that.
I also think [inaudible] and Mr. Espaillat said, ``Follow
the money.'' I actually would like to follow the money. Why are
we not dealing with hospital monopolies the taxpayers are
supporting so much? Why are we not dealing with the border
situation that all those NGO's get money? Who knows what the
hell they're doing with that and why we have the crises with
all the situations?
I want to try to ask you if we're going to find common
ground, I actually on the Criminal Justice Subcommittee tried
to pass some laws on a bipartisan basis, but is there any in
your party except gun control?
I know that Ms. Fischer, you mentioned about the safe
storage and everything. I just don't see anything how I am and
my kids are going to be safer if I lock up my guns. Actually,
as a female, I feel not as safe. I don't know how long
[inaudible] police officer will take them now to get to help
us.
So, I think we now--it's really strange for me. We try to
take protection from law-abiding citizen and believe that
criminals are not going to get guns?
I mean, is there anything else except gun control? Maybe we
should reform education and have some wraparound preventative
services and have more competition in education, that these
kids are actually taught some values, that don't have a 10
percent or eight percent literacy rate, that they have to get
into gangs.
Is there anything else you can say except gun control?
Ms. Fischer. So, comprehensive solutions to reducing
violence in New York City have actually been incredibly
effective. That's why if I--
Ms. Spartz. Not do any in Congress--
Ms. Fischer. --set the record straight, because we've been
talking a lot about statistics, the NYPD's own data has shown
that shootings are down in the first quarter 19 percent.
Ms. Spartz. Yes, I think I don't need statistics.
It doesn't sound like--
Ms. Fischer. Homicides are down nine percent.
Ms. Spartz. OK. OK.
Mr. Kessler, my question for you: You've been talking a lot
about trafficking and are we going to be talking about child
trafficking, human trafficking, drug trafficking of the border
and cartels actually doing this gun violence associated with
it? Can we find common ground on that?
Mr. Kessler. Let me try to--
Ms. Spartz. I mean, is cartel not a problem? Can you tell
me that trafficking of guns done by Mexican cartels and now
subsidized with taxpayers' money--is it not a problem? Can we
find a common ground on that?
Mr. Kessler. Perhaps. So, if I--
Ms. Spartz. Let's talk about that. I mean, why cannot we
talk about that?
Mr. Kessler. If I could just have 30 seconds to answer.
Ms. Spartz. OK. Well, I don't have 30 seconds, but--
Mr. Kessler. Back in the ``wayback machine,'' I helped
with--Chuck Schumer worked on the 1994 crime bill, which I know
not everybody loves, but one of the things about that crime
bill--and it was a huge, comprehensive--it was one of the
things that brought down crime in this country.
One of the most important things about that crime bill--
Schumer gets a lot of credit for it. Henry Hyde, the Republican
Ranking Member, worked on it closely with Schumer too. It was a
bipartisan effort, and solutions was taken from both sides--
Ms. Spartz. Let's talk about it, but not right now do it.
Mr. Kessler. --it wasn't perfect, but the rates started to
come down, and it was--
Ms. Spartz. My time has expired, but we need to stop
playing politics with people's life.
I yield back.
Chair Jordan. The gentlelady yields back.
The gentleman from Alabama, Mr. Moore, is recognized for
five minutes.
Mr. Moore. Thank you, Mr. Chair. Let me say first, I
appreciate you having this hearing.
Let me set the record straight for the people in New York.
This is not the first hearing on crime we've had since Mr.
Jordan's been Chair. A few weeks ago, we went to Yuma, Arizona.
We saw where people were coming across the border--106
different Nations.
A hundred-and-seven-thousand fentanyl deaths. We talk about
mass shootings. We only had 74 people killed by mass shootings
last year in America. We're losing more than that today, just
in this hearing alone, to fentanyl poisoning.
So, we've been out here, and we're going to go other areas
where there's crime, and we're going to have hearings, because
it's a concern. I mean, Victoria's right. We have to begin to
address these issues that are threatening American citizens.
So, Ms. Brame, you actually took one of my talking points a
while ago. Crime doesn't--the criminal does not differentiate
between a Republican and a Democrat. I was stabbed a few years
ago, and I was glad the DA actually charged the man for
attempted murder and put him behind bars. It made us all feel a
little safer.
So, thank you for being here. Ms. Harrison, thank you for
being here. Mr. Alba, thank you for being here.
Mr. DiGiacomo, I want to talk to you a little bit about
just what we're seeing with the rules the DA came in with, this
new rule, this set of rules. Are you seeing officers retire now
and going to other lines of work as a result of the policies?
Mr. DiGiacomo. Well, I lost--600 detectives retired this
year alone.
Just to give a clear consensus on what that means, in 2001,
in the terrorist attacks, we had 7,500 detectives. Right now,
I'm working with 5,400 detectives. We're doing more
investigative steps now than we were doing then because of the
video canvasses. We're also doing counterterrorism duties, as
well, here in New York City.
Mr. Moore. What do you think the primary reason the
detectives--you're losing that experience level. Why are they
leaving?
Mr. DiGiacomo. Well, when you're a detective, you
investigate crimes, and sometimes it takes months to
investigate those crimes. There are reports that are this high,
and the detective puts many, many hours, days, and weeks
sometimes investigating those crimes, just for the individual
to be let go. They're getting frustrated. They are frustrated
is the real fact.
Mr. Moore. I guess they risk these lives as they're
investigating these crimes, as well, and they're risking their
health?
Mr. DiGiacomo. Always. Always. Yes, always--New York City
detectives do everything from patrol to climb the bridges and
everything in between--homicide, special victims, and narcotic
divisions. So, detectives and all police officers here in New
York City do very dangerous work 24 hours a day.
Mr. Moore. Mr. DiGiacomo, I've got a question. I find it
interesting that when a law enforcement officer uses a weapon
to defend themself or even in pursuit of a criminal, it's
always the law enforcement officer's fault, but when it's the
criminal using the gun, it's always the gun's fault.
How do we address that in society? Why does the left always
drive that narrative?
Mr. DiGiacomo. Well, it's very simple. It's the person that
is handling the gun. It's the criminal element that's using the
gun and victimizing other people here in New York City and
across this country.
Mr. Moore. So, in some sense, it must be the person, the
individual, responsible, not the law enforcement officer
himself.
Mr. DiGiacomo. One hundred percent.
Mr. Moore. How do you find a man that--or a lady that wants
to be a law enforcement--if she pulls her weapon in a life-
threatening situation and she shoots somebody, she's going to
be tried for murder or he's going to be tried for some sort of
crime, but if he doesn't pull his weapon, he ends up dying. How
do you recruit people to go into that industry?
Mr. DiGiacomo. It's a dying profession.
Mr. Moore. That's scary for me, for our society, in
general, if we cannot recruit good law enforcement officers.
Then they're crucified by the left and the media when they act
to save their selves or their partner's lives.
Mr. DiGiacomo. If I may?
Mr. Moore. Yes, please.
Mr. DiGiacomo. There's no profession, at least here in New
York City, that has more oversight than the New York City
Police Department.
Mr. Moore. Uh-huh.
Mr. DiGiacomo. There are about 10 levels of oversight. No
one else has that level of oversight like the New York City
Police Department.
Mr. Moore. Typically in society--and this is for all folks,
in blue cities or any other cities. Often, they want to disarm
law-abiding citizens, and they say, ``Well, call the police. If
you have an intruder, call the police,'' and then, at the same
time, they're defunding the police.
What kind of situation, Ms. Harrison, does that put society
in, when you can't defend yourself?
Ms. Harrison. A horrible situation.
At the same time, in the name of ending mass incarceration,
as they like to gaslight everybody with, they're releasing very
violent recidivists with no oversight, because they're removing
any kind of parole supervision, bail supervision.
So, we really do need to be able to defend ourselves in
some way, shame, or form.
Mr. Moore. Is that weapon--I mean, my daughters have
concealed-carry permits. It's the equalizer, correct? For a
lady who's being attacked by an assailant who's much bigger,
much heavier, and much stronger, does it not equalize the
playing field?
Ms. Harrison. I believe it does.
Mr. Moore. Thank you.
With that, I'll yield back, Mr. Chair.
Chair Jordan. I thank the gentleman.
Witnesses, we've just got a few more, but these are very
important Members, great people.
We're going to go now with the gentlelady from Wyoming, Ms.
Hageman.
Ms. Hageman. Thank you.
Thank you, for everyone, for being here.
I represent the State of Wyoming. There are 560,000 people
in my State. I grew up outside of a town of 350 people. I
currently live in our largest city of 60,000 people.
I want you to know, Mr. Alba, Ms. Harrison, Ms. Brame, and
Mr. Borgen, we pay a lot of attention to what goes on here. We
know about you.
When I read about your situation, Mr. Alba, and what
happened to you the next day after it happened, I prayed for
you. I prayed for your family.
As I read the testimony that you have provided to us today,
it makes my heart break to know that you, as family members,
have gone through something so devastating. To make it even
worse, our criminal justice system has treated you so poorly
since you have gone through these things.
I will tell you; it has been interesting to listen to you
talk about your loved ones, talk about the fear that you faced
with this situation, Mr. Alba; the loss that you're still
suffering from 18 years later after losing your loved one; how
much love you have for your son, how much love you have for
your son and your family and your community.
I do want you to know that we're not here for
grandstanding. We're not here for anything other than the fact
that we're recognizing that across the country there is a
sickness pervading our communities that is destroying who and
what we are. It's not just about guns.
I watched you, Ms. Fischer, as you secretly smiled at some
of the Congress Members on the other side as people on our side
talked about the gun issue. I understand you believe that it is
an inanimate object that somehow can create the--or cause the
mass shootings, that it's not the individual.
One of the things that has struck me today is that, as we
talk about these mass shootings, nobody has talked about the
drugs that these people were on. Nobody has talked about the
psychology of this.
We just had a woman shoot and kill three young children and
three teachers, and yet no one has talked about what kind of
drugs she may have been taking, what kind of psychosis she was
suffering from. Clearly, she was suffering from a psychosis.
She claimed that she was a boy when she was a girl.
We have to be looking at those kinds of things. It's not
the guns. It's what we're teaching in school. It's the rot in
our culture. It is the fact that we are losing our society
because we're unwilling to recognize that there is evil, and
when there's evil, we need to address it.
When someone does something to your family members that is
illegal, we need to take them off the streets. We don't need to
try to figure out what may have happened in their background.
If they've done something, if they've stabbed a beautiful young
man, as they did your son, they need to be taken off the street
and they need to be punished.
We need to protect our law-abiding citizens, and we need to
protect our communities. We also need to protect our police
officers.
Mr. DiGiacomo, the thing that has struck me, as I listen to
the testimony, is the fear that I have--and you were just
speaking about it a moment ago with my colleague Mr. Moore,
about the impact that this is having on our law enforcement
officers. You said something that was extremely jarring, which
is, it's a dying profession. What that means is we're heading
toward anarchy and lawlessness.
When I was driving in last night from the airport, what
struck me as I drove down the streets of this city that I
love--I've spent a lot of time in New York City. Coming from
Wyoming, I love this city. What I started seeing out the window
was almost an ``Escape from New York'' feel.
We don't want our big cities to die. We don't want to lose
the culture that we have here. We in Wyoming love New York. We
love Portland. We love Austin, Texas. We love these places.
They're part of our culture and the fabric of our society.
We have to address the fact that there are people who are
willing to kill and stab and hurt other people. It is the
responsibility of our law enforcement and our prosecutors to
make sure that they can't hurt anyone else.
With that, I want to tell you, there have been many times
today that you've been called victims, and I don't see you as
victims. I see you as very, very brave, brave people for being
willing to come in here today and tell your story and make sure
that everybody in this country knows your names and knows the
names of your family members.
With that, I yield back.
Chair Jordan. Well said.
The gentleman from Texas, Mr. Hunt, is recognized.
Mr. Hunt. I cannot thank you all enough for being here.
Thank you for sharing your lives with us. Thank you for sharing
your stories. I greatly appreciate it. Being from Texas, it's
an honor to be in your presence.
In the 1990s, the mid-late 1990s, New York City was
considered one of the safest cities in America. When I was at
West Point from 2000-2004, I took that train down here many a
day, had a pretty good time in this city, and I felt relatively
safe when I did just that.
While Alvin Bragg is a Manhattan District Attorney, his
policies are not isolated to this borough. His pro-criminal
policies are just an example of what Soros-funded district
attorneys are implementing across our great Nation. Their
ideology is responsible for the death, rape, and robbery of
innocent people across America, and it is disproportionately
impacting poor Black and Brown people.
In Democrat-run cities across America, criminals are given
deference and victims are left to fend for themselves, as you
have articulated today. Why do these Soros-funded district
attorneys put criminals first and victims last? It's what they
believe. It's who they are.
Our cities are crumbling around us. Criminals are running
rampant. That's because district attorneys in San Francisco,
Los Angeles, Chicago, and even my home city of Houston are
advocating for pro-criminal policies. Alvin Bragg fits this
profile, in my humble opinion.
Let's talk about Alvin Bragg. He's a woke, progressive
district attorney no different than any other progressive DA in
our country right now. He was elected as the Manhattan DA in
2021. His policies should not be surprising given that he was
heavily supported by the Black Lives Matter PAC that was
directly funded by George Soros. In fact, George Soros donated
$1 million to that PAC less than a week after endorsing Bragg.
Under the guise of helping people of color, he causes them
more harm with his pro-criminal policies. Since Bragg has taken
office, New York City residents are worried about increasing
threats of violence.
Do you know who doesn't have to worry about violence? Alvin
Bragg. Bragg is surrounded by men with guns every single day.
If you're a regular New Yorker coming home late at night on the
Subway, you may be robbed, stabbed, raped, or even pushed in
front of a train.
Do you know what the fastest-growing demographic of gun
ownership is in America? Black women. Black women. Why? Because
they know they have to protect themselves in Democrat-run
cities where criminals are allowed to roam free. That is a
fact.
Now, many of my colleagues on the left like to say that our
justice system is two-tiered, that it favors the powerful and
connected at the expense of poor people of color. In Bragg's
office, there's a two-tiered justice system: It's criminals
first and victims second, especially victims of color.
We have an opportunity to vote out DAs just like this to
make people that look like me and you, ma'am, safer. Let me
take it one step further. Not just people that look like you
and me. Every single American that lives in this country should
feel safe to live in their own streets, end of discussion.
I'm sitting here right now, and I'm hearing ``Trump, Trump,
Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump.'' At the end of the day, the
people that are sitting here right now, they don't want to hear
that. The only thing you want is safety.
We are not grandstanding. I am not grandstanding. I can
assure you; I would love to be holding my four-month-old boy
right now. I am here to fight for you and to hear your stories
and to allow you to tell your stories. For that, I am forever
grateful.
Ma'am, you aren't the only one that's actually left the
plantation. It's happening all over the country.
With that, I yield back. Thank you.
Mr. Johnson of Louisiana. [Presiding.] The gentleman yields
back.
Mr. Kiley is recognized for five minutes.
Mr. Kiley. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
In recent years, we have seen a movement to fundamentally
change America's approach to law and order by defunding police
departments and by putting so-called progressive prosecutors in
district attorney's offices.
Mr. DiGiacomo, you are the head of the New York Detectives'
Endowment Association. What connection do you see between these
two things, defund the police and progressive prosecutors?
Mr. DiGiacomo. Well, they're following the progressive line
and not backing the police, not caring about the victims, and
putting the criminal element back out onto the street to
victimize the people of this city and State and country.
Mr. Kiley. That's right. Both seek to eliminate or
neutralize the capabilities of law enforcement, correct?
Mr. DiGiacomo. It's been compromised already.
Mr. Kiley. That's right. Thereby removing or reducing the
consequence of criminal activity, correct?
Mr. DiGiacomo. Correct.
Mr. Kiley. So, these policies have gained a major foothold
in several cities, including the one that we're in right now,
so we can assess what the impact has been. One way to assess
that impact, of course, is looking at the effect on crime
rates.
Now, Mr. Holden, you're an elected city council member in
New York, a member of the Democratic Party, and you testified
today about failed progressive policies. So, just to be clear,
when you say these are failed progressive policies, is that
because they've caused crime to go up or to go down?
Mr. Holden. Again, I'm a critic of my party's stance on
crime. Everything's gone up. All their policies have led to an
increase in crime.
I think we saw it come to a head with the war on police
that started after George Floyd. It went national. So, you saw
this kind of crime wave go throughout the entire country.
Mr. Kiley. That's right. In fact, if you look at
yesterday's The New York Times, it reported that major crime in
New York this year is 45 percent up from two years ago. This is
from The New York Times.
To your point, in Los Angeles, violent crime is 86 percent
higher than national average. In San Francisco, overall crime
is 111 percent higher than the national average.
So, you can also then look to assess the impact of these
policies about how people are responding to them.
Would you say, Council Member Holden, that these failed
progressive policies have caused more people to move to New
York City or to move away from New York City?
Mr. Holden. Certainly, away from New York City. I've never
seen it this bad. Like I said, I grew up in the 1980s and 1990s
in New York, and I saw horrific crime numbers, but now it's
much, much worse because it's all over. The lawlessness, mayhem
is all over.
Mr. Kiley. In fact, the State of New York is second in the
Nation in terms of one-way U-Haul rentals, people who are
leaving.
First place, of course, is California now, three years
running. Los Angeles County, where George Gascon is the
District Attorney, accounts for half the people leaving
California. San Francisco, its population is declining faster
than any major city in U.S. history.
Now, a final way we can assess the impact of these policies
is by the judgment of voters.
Council Member Holden, would you say that Mayor Eric Adams
made the issue of crime a major plank in his successful
campaign for mayor?
Mr. Holden. Well, that was and certainly is. He's not
getting much support from his colleagues.
Mr. Kiley. Correct.
In Los Angeles, George Gascon has been subject to a vote of
``no confidence'' by 36 different city councils within his
jurisdiction.
San Francisco voters went so far as to recall their
progressive prosecutor from office overwhelmingly. Now, this is
not a red city. The Trump-Pence ticket got 12 percent in San
Francisco. Yet, voters overwhelmingly recalled that progressive
prosecutor.
So, the verdict is very clear: That these policies have led
to crime skyrocketing, to people fleeing, and they're being
rejected by voters.
Yet, today, on the other side of the table, we by and large
saw Members of Congress standing by those policies. For folks
who are watching and, for that matter, the victims and the
families who are here today, it must be disheartening.
I'd say it's actually not as bleak as it sounds, that, in
fact, the voices that we have heard today on the other side are
not representative. For proof of that, just look what happened
in D.C. after the city council there passed a reckless crime
bill.
In the House majority, we passed legislation to undo what
the D.C. City Council had done. President Biden sided with us
and signed that bill. Two out of three Democrat Senators sided
with us and voted for that bill. Do you know how many Members
of this Committee in the minority voted for that bill? Just
one. Every single other Member voted to keep the reckless, pro-
criminal D.C. crime bill in place.
So, I would say there's a lot more consensus in this
country right now than today's hearing makes out and that the
pendulum is swinging back toward supporting victims, supporting
law enforcement, and supporting law and order.
I look forward to working with people of good faith on both
sites of the aisle to restore sanity to our criminal justice
system.
Mr. Johnson of Louisiana. The gentleman's time has expired.
Mr. Moran is recognized for five minutes.
Mr. Moran. Thank you, Mr. Chair.
There's a greatness in America that has often been
reflected over the history of our Nation by the greatness in
some of our largest cities, like New York City, like
Philadelphia, like a couple cities in my State--Austin and
Houston, to name a few.
Widespread movements in these cities to focus support for
criminals instead of victims, to put progressive liberal
politics ahead of the lives of all individuals regardless of
political affiliation, to put sound bites ahead of sound
policy, and to focus on social justice rather than actual
justice have resulted in these Democrat-run cities, like New
York City, being less safe.
Of course, if you're talking about the safety and
protection of criminals, that's different.
Mr. DiGiacomo, let me see if I understand a couple of
statistics correctly. I'll ask you a couple questions about
this.
When it relates to Alvin Bragg's Manhattan District
Attorney's Office, not even going back before that but just
looking at what he's done and looking at the process, in
particular, let's start with somebody that's committed to
criminal offense, a felony offense.
Since 2019, if you compare 2019-2022 statistics, Alvin
Bragg has declined to prosecute 35 percent less felonies than
before. Even with those felonies that were charged, he's
downgraded 52 percent of those felonies down to misdemeanors.
Even when you get past that, of those felonies that actually
make it to trial, Alvin Bragg's office is only successful in
about half of those cases.
So, when you start doing the mathematical calculations, if
you're a criminal in this city that commits a felony, by the
time he declines to prosecute and then downgrades a portion of
what's left and then actually prosecutes those that are left
and is unsuccessful in about half of those cases, probably only
one in five at best, maybe one in six or one in seven, that
commit a felony criminal offense in the city of New York City
and in the Manhattan district in particular actually get
convicted of that felony conviction.
Is that true?
Mr. DiGiacomo. That's counterproductive to the victims of
crime. Correct.
Mr. Moran. Once convicted, then, based on Alvin Bragg's
``Day 1 Memo,'' he's encouraged less and less of those
criminals to actually receive jail time. Isn't that true?
Mr. DiGiacomo. That's correct.
Mr. Moran. Now, how does that work with the morale of the
NYPD?
Mr. DiGiacomo. Well, we're seeing it now, where we're
having so many members of the NYPD leaving for other
departments and detectives with years and years of experience
and knowledge retiring. It's going to have a major impact on
public safety here in New York City.
Mr. Moran. Yes. Does it actually affect their ability to
perform their duties?
Mr. DiGiacomo. Oh, absolutely. Again, if you're not
prosecuting the crime, again, you're putting your life on the
line every time you encounter a criminal or a criminal element,
and just for this individual to be let out again, and all your
work was done for no reason.
Mr. Moran. I'd like to know what you're hearing, because
you have your ear to the ground. What are you hearing from the
men and women, the brave men and women, of the NYPD about their
desire to continue to serve under these kinds of circumstances?
Mr. DiGiacomo. Policing here in New York City is the most
difficult I've seen it in 40 years. It's almost impossible for
these young cops, and old, and detectives to do their job
effectively, because you don't have a clear understanding and
working relationship with the District Attorney's Office.
Mr. Moran. How does it affect their job and their ability
to perform their job, that about half of those actually charged
with felonies are out on--without any bail at all, awaiting
trial, and only about half are in?
Mr. DiGiacomo. Well, it breaks the morale, and it breaks
your desire to serve and protect the people of this city.
Mr. Moran. Do you see often times when these that have
committed felonies that are awaiting trial are actually out
there committing more felonies while they're in their pretrial
state?
Mr. DiGiacomo. That's the sad part about this. They're out
again victimizing the people of the city. That's why the morale
in the NYPD is so low right now.
Mr. Moran. One of the things that you mentioned in your
testimony, your written testimony, is about juvenile offenders.
Mr. DiGiacomo. Uh-huh.
Mr. Moran. Talk about juvenile offenders under Alvin
Bragg's District Attorney's Office, whether or not they're
committing more crimes, whether or not they are incentivized to
be part of gangs more than they were before.
Mr. DiGiacomo. Well, it used to be two percent of the
crimes in New York City. It's now double digits. They're
committing more crimes, carrying more firearms, because they
know there are no consequences.
Mr. Moran. Yes. These are the illegal firearms that we've
been talking about, so much that--
Mr. DiGiacomo. Correct.
Mr. Moran. --Alvin Bragg's office has decided not to
prosecute under existing law. Is that true?
Mr. DiGiacomo. That's correct.
Mr. Moran. All right. Thank you for your time.
I yield back.
Chair Jordan. [Presiding.] I thank the gentleman.
The gentleman yields back.
Last, but certainly not least, my friend and colleague, the
gentleman from New Jersey, is recognized.
Mr. Van Drew. Hi. You guys got to be tired. I know after a
while you almost have your eyes glaze over.
I want to tell you--and I really mean this, and there's a
lot of people in this room who mean it--we appreciate you. We
appreciate your bravery, your strength, your love for the ones
that you lost. We appreciate the professionals who are here who
are willing to speak up against all odds.
This is a big deal. Without folks like you, without good
Americans like you, without individuals who have the courage
and strength to stand up the way that you do, we're definitely
doomed.
I also want to promise you something else. I think the
Chair would stick with me on this, and I think the Members here
would stick with it. We're going to do something. We absolutely
didn't do this for an exercise. We absolutely didn't do this
for politics.
So, I do want to say this to my friends on the other side.
They threw out all kinds of stuff today--numbers that weren't
real, a whole discussion of guns. You can have a lot of
discussions on guns, but that wasn't what today was about. It
wasn't a discussion about the guns. It was a discussion about
Alvin Bragg.
They talked about George Santos, anti-Semitism, Donald
Trump, money going from the NRA to Members--which, by the way,
I don't think it does, or else I'm surely the only one not
getting it. I asked a few people. I don't think that's accurate
either.
That's an old political trick. Just so that you who are
sitting here at this table know, you put the shiny object up
here, and the shiny object is Donald Trump. So, hopefully--you
hope that you and that we get so focused on his issues and get
drawn into that.
I don't give a damn about his issues right now. We'll deal
with his issues--and they're important issues--at another time.
I care about your issues. We care about your issues. They
should care about your issues, not all this other crap they
threw out there.
I'm sorry, I'm a little rough around the edges sometimes,
but I'm just telling you the truth. It's about time we hear the
truth. That's what the truth is.
The truth is this--I did write some things down, too--that
crime rates in our biggest cities have risen to staggering
levels. When you say the crime rate or what's really going on,
you can't just talk about somebody who has actually been--was
going to be prosecuted but was released. That's why these
numbers look down, because we're releasing everybody. We're not
putting them in jail.
Bad people should go in jail. That's where they belong.
They shouldn't be out so they can hurt your wives, children,
mothers, fathers, and grandfathers. We want to be safe, and it
doesn't matter what color, what race, what origin we are; we
want to be safe in our homes.
I think of what goes on in Chicago. It's not only New York.
My God, how many little Black babies get shot every single week
in that town? We can stop it. We could stop it if we had good
prosecutors.
Who's funding these progressive district attorneys? We
should know that. Well, it's George Soros. With this increase
in crime, you would think their DA would be actively trying to
slow it down. He's not. He's taking money from George Soros.
I don't know about money from the NRA, but I'll tell you,
there's tons of money, tens of millions--in fact, he spent $170
million--that's a lot of dough--$170 million in 2022 and $40
million which was for local prosecutor elections. We never had
money spent like that on prosecutor elections. It's wrong.
Prosecutors should run because they want to defend the law,
help their police, and, most of all, help you.
God bless you, after being a victim and losing people you
love, that you're here. I can't believe how strong you are.
You know what begs the question too? Who's worse? Is it a
prosecutor who doesn't enforce the law, or the criminal? Well,
the prosecutor who doesn't enforce the law has a broad effect
across the whole city and should know better and is taking his
position, that position of such importance, to be the legal
guardian, to be the person that's the caretaker of our America,
of our cities, of this great city of New York, and what does he
do? For politics, he doesn't care.
The fact that he didn't sit down and shed some tears with
you, it's unbelievable to me.
The fact that he put you--and accused you of murder. Troy
was right before. A man tries to kill you, you've got to stop
him. It's your right. I guess he would've rather that you got
killed. I don't understand it.
It's in New York City. It's in Chicago. It's in San
Francisco. This is the facts.
Aww, shoot. I need a few more seconds. A few more?
The bottom line is, the facts are that all the Soros-backed
district attorneys are doing this everywhere. It leads to more
crime.
I'm going to say this--I'm going to finish up.
Chair Jordan. The gentleman--
Mr. Van Drew. I think the answer is--I think he should
resign. I swear to God, he should resign, and he should be
disbarred.
Chair Jordan. The gentleman's time has expired.
I want to--this concludes our hearing today.
I want to thank our witnesses. I've been in Congress a
while, not quite as long as Mr. Nadler, but I've been there a
while, and I don't know if I've ever been a part of a hearing
with more powerful witnesses telling your stories. So, thank
you for your courage. Thank you for your patience, for being
here. God bless you all.
That concludes--without objection, all members will have
five legislative days to submit additional written questions
for the witnesses or additional materials for the record.
Chair Jordan. Now, without objection, the hearing is
adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 12:58 p.m., the Committee was adjourned.]
All items submitted for the record by Members of the
Committee on the Judiciary can be found at https://
docs.house.gov/Committee/Calendar/ByEvent.aspx?EventID=115663.