[House Hearing, 118 Congress]
[From the U.S. Government Publishing Office]
EXPOSING PUTIN'S CRIMES: EVIDENCE
OF RUSSIAN WAR CRIMES AND OTHER
ATROCITIES IN UKRAINE
=======================================================================
HEARING
BEFORE THE
COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS
HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES
ONE HUNDRED EIGHTEENTH CONGRESS
FIRST SESSION
__________
APRIL 19, 2023
__________
Serial No. 118-20
__________
Printed for the use of the Committee on Foreign Affairs
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Available: http://www.foreignaffairs.house.gov/, http://
docs.house.gov,
or http://www.govinfo.gov
__________
U.S. GOVERNMENT PUBLISHING OFFICE
52-144 WASHINGTON : 2023
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN AFFAIRS
MICHAEL T. MCCAUL, Texas, Chairman
CHRISTOPHER H. SMITH, New Jersey GREGORY MEEKS, New Yok, Ranking
JOE WILSON, South Carolina Member
SCOTT PERRY, Pennsylvania BRAD SHERMAN, California
DARRELL ISSA, California GERALD E. CONNOLLY, Virginia
ANN WAGNER, Missouri WILLIAM KEATING, Massachusetts
BRIAN MAST, Florida DAVID CICILLINE, Rhode Island
KEN BUCK, Colorado AMI BERA, California
TIM BURCHETT, Tennessee JOAQUIN CASTRO, Texas
MARK E. GREEN, Tennessee DINA TITUS, Nevada
ANDY BARR, Kentucky TED LIEU, California
RONNY JACKSON, Texas SUSAN WILD, Pennsylvania
YOUNG KIM, California DEAN PHILLIPS, Minnesota
MARIA ELVIRA SALAZAR, Florida COLIN ALLRED, Texas
BILL HUIZENGA, Michigan ANDY KIM, New Jersey
AMATA COLEMAN-RADEWAGEN, American SARA JACOBS, California
Samoa KATHY MANNING, North Carolina
FRENCH HILL, Arkansas SHEILA CHERFILUS-MCCORMICK,
WARREN DAVIDSON, Ohio Florida
JIM BAIRD, Indiana GREG STANTON, Arizona
MICHAEL WALTZ, Florida MADELEINE DEAN, Pennsylvania
TOM KEAN, JR., New Jersey JARED MOSKOWITZ, Florida
MIKE LAWLER, New York JONATHAN JACOBS, Illinois
CORY MILLS, Florida SYDNEY KAMLAGER-DOVE, California
RICH MCCORMICK, Georgia JIM COSTA, California
NATHANIEL MORAN, Texas JASON CROW, Colorado
JOHN JAMES, Michigan BRAD SCHNEIDER. Illinois
KEITH SELF, Texas
Brenden Shields, Staff Director
Sophia Lafargue, Staff Director
C O N T E N T S
----------
Page
WITNESSES
Kostin, Andriy, Prosecutor General of Ukraine, Office of the
Prosecutor General............................................. 8
APPENDIX
Hearing Notice................................................... 53
Hearing Minutes.................................................. 54
Hearing Attendance............................................... 55
STATEMENT SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD FROM REPRESENTATIVE CONNOLLY
Statement submitted for the record from Representative Connolly.. 56
RESPONSES TO QUESTIONS SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD
Responses to questions submitted for the record.................. 57
EXPOSING PUTIN'S CRIMES: EVIDENCE
OF RUSSIAN WAR CRIMES AND OTHER
ATROCITIES IN UKRAINE
Wednesday, April 19, 2023
House of Representatives,
Committee on Foreign Affairs,
Washington, DC.
The committee met, pursuant to notice, at 10:45 a.m., in
room 210, House Visitor Center, Hon. Michael McCaul (chairman
of the committee) presiding.
Chairman McCaul. Thank you for being here today. The
purpose of this hearing is to expose Russian war crimes and
other atrocities in Ukraine and to ensure that the world never
forgets. I also hope to discuss efforts to ensure perpetrators
up to the highest levels of the Kremlin face justice. I now
recognize myself for an opening statement.
We just heard two horrific and heartbreaking stories from
victims of Russia's ongoing war crimes in Ukraine. Sadly, those
are just two examples of the more than 80,000 war crimes that
the Prosecutor General's Office has recorded.
From the beginning of Russia's war of aggression in
Ukraine, Russian troops have been engaging in unspeakable acts
against the Ukrainian people. To break the will of the
Ukrainian people, Russia has employed the use of terror through
barbaric war crimes from sexual violence including the rape of
children and the elderly to mass executions and torture, all
targeted at innocent civilians.
Shortly after this unprovoked invasion, I introduced the
Ukraine Invasion War Crimes Deterrence and Accountability Act
which was signed into law. It requires the Administration to
report to Congress on the U.S. response to war crimes being
committed in Ukraine. Disappointingly, the Administration has
failed to provide this report to date.
Over the last 14 months, what we have witnessed is bone
chilling: the bombing of a maternity hospital, corpses
littering the streets of Bucha, hands tied behind their backs,
bullets in their head, some of them decapitated; mothers raped
in front of their children, young girls in front of their
families, the bodies of innocent Ukrainians half buried in mass
graves, countless torture chambers throughout Russian-occupied
territory, mobile crematoriums used to dispose the evidence of
their indiscriminate killings, the bombardment of apartments
and public buildings providing refuge to children and the
elderly, including a theater in Mariupol that had the words
children written outside so large in Russian you could see it
from the satellites.
The head of the 1-year anniversary of the invasion, I led a
congressional delegation to Ukraine including Representatives
Issa and Self who sit on this committee. We met with the
Prosecutor General Kostin who is before us here today. He
personally escorted us to Bucha to see the site of the first
mass grave discovered and we met some of the first victims of
Russian war crimes. It was a sobering experience and one that I
will never forget. And as this war rages on, these war crimes
have only continued.
Following the liberation of Kherson which was under Russian
occupation for 8 months, more horrors have been discovered.
Russian soldiers had taken old detention centers and converted
them into torture chambers. Those subject to these torture
chambers included journalists, civil servants, teaches, and
random citizens. They were subjected to electric shock,
torture, ferocious beatings, suffocation, and water boarding.
They even discovered a children's cell specifically used to
torture and abuse children. These were not the actions of some
rogue soldiers, but rather a planned and financed operation of
terror sanctioned at the highest levels of the Kremlin.
The investigators who collected this evidence said this was
``a calculated plan to terrorize, subjugate, and eliminate
Ukrainian resistance and destroy Ukrainian identity.'' This is
the reality for every single innocent Ukrainian who remains
trapped enemy lines and under Russian occupation.
Recently, we have learned of Russian soldiers beheading
Ukrainian POWs. Just this past Monday, the story broke
outlining how Wagner commanders confessed to extensive war
crimes including the execution of 20 children, along with
blowing up a pit of more than 50 wounded captives. They
admitted they were given orders to ``shoot without words'' at
anyone over the age of 15. Russian soldiers and Wagner Group
mercenaries, in horrific detail I have heard, have been
reported carry Viagra with them to forcefully rape women and
children.
I personally heard an account from a Ukrainian mother who
saw her 5-year-old daughter gang raped to death by ten Wagner
mercenaries who then threw her dead body on the side of the
road. This is happening right now. They are monsters and they
need to be brought to justice.
One would think the horrors of such acts would have been
discarded into the ash heap of history as Ronald Reagan once
said. But sadly, the depravity of Russia's invading forces
knows no bounds. We have seen the mass deportation and
relocation of Ukrainian children, tens of thousands of children
have been kidnaped, handed over to Russian families, and forced
into pro-Russian reeducation systems.
These are more than war crimes. These are more than crimes
against humanity. What we are witnessing in Ukraine is
genocide. By definition, genocide is ``the intention to destroy
a people in whole or in part, including by forcibly
transferring children of the group to another group.''
Putin and Kremlin's senior officials have made clear that
their intent is to systematically wipe out Ukraine's existence.
The free world cannot sit idly by and allow this to happen. It
is beyond time that this Administration, along with our allies,
provide Ukraine with the weapons they need to win.
We need to do more than just give Ukraine enough for
survival. We urgently must give them longer-range systems such
as ATACMS for victory. These are critical to not only destroy
the Iranian drones in Crimea that have been devastating to
Ukraine's civilian infrastructure, but also to enable Ukraine
to push forward with this imminent counter offensive to
recapture its territory and liberate its own people from the
daily threat of this Russian terror.
History will judge this moment and ask what we did to stop
this. No country can remain neutral in the face of such evil.
Genocide must not be tolerated by the free world. And just as
we held perpetrators of genocide to account in the Nuremberg
trials following World War II, we must also hold Putin and his
soldiers accountable for the Russian horrors inflicted on
Ukraine. History will judge us by what we do here and now.
With that, the chair now recognizes the Ranking Member.
Mr. Meeks. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. You cannot be human and
not feel the evil that has been done to our witnesses, to the
Ukrainian people. You cannot be human. It is devastation. You
cannot be human and see as I have seen traveling to both
Ukraine and Poland the torture, the devastation, the
destruction of families. Never thought in the year 2023 you
would see such devastation again.
The question is how can any leader, any human being--I
thought that maybe we would have learned by now that we do not
treat others in the manner of evil and destruction that we see.
This and the way that the Ukrainians are suffering every day,
every day that Russia's brutal war continues and I cannot help
but even think that even when you look at the destruction, when
the fighting stops, Ukrainians will have to deal with all of
the consequences of this evil act, the scars.
We heard the representative talk--could you imagine the
scars of that witness that we have in the back? They will last
a lifetime, the scars, the trauma. The young children who as
you see and I have seen on the streets, that trauma will be
with them for a lifetime. The decimated towns and cities that
Russia's illegal war has caused for what? For what?
We have had the opportunity to hear the first-hand accounts
of the two victims who have lived through Russia's war. Right
now, I would like to thank both for their presence today and I
do sure wish that they did not have to be here, but I think
that the world needs to hear their testimony. Tragically, the
experiences that they have been forced to endure is happening
all across Ukraine.
Mr. McCaul has listed several other events. I have seen and
talked to other victims. And so what I want them to know we
feel your pain. We hear your voices and the voices of all of
your compatriots. And we cannot let your suffering be in vain.
Thanks to your efforts, the world is aware of Putin's brutality
from directing the abduction of children and the massacre of
civilians from the targeting of hospitals and indiscriminate
attacks in densely populated areas.
We are here today to examine the work that is being done to
bring perpetrators of these war crimes to Ukraine to justice.
The ICC has been laying legal groundwork for accountability
since Russia's initial invasion in the spring of 2014 when
Russia began to kidnap children from Ukraine. And though this
was at the time on a smaller scale because it is important to
know that this did not just started, it started in 2014 in
Crimea. It has been going on for too long. We show that we
cannot just turn our head.
You know, we have to remember that Putin claims that
Ukraine is run by fascists. Oh, my God. Have you looked in the
mirror? Have you looked in the mirror?
We hear statements from Russian officials and from Russian
disinformation outlets which seek to dehumanize
Ukrainians. How can one take--and turn it around? How can a
human being look himself in the mirror? How can they try to
create a false narrative when clearly the whole world sees who
the aggressor and who is committing the criminal acts?
And so yes, the United States and our allies and partners
must work diligently to ensure records and document ever piece
of this criminal history beginning in 2014. And we must collect
it so that all those who are responsible for war crimes and
crimes against humanity and other human rights violations are
held accountable. They cannot get away with it. They cannot
think that just some kind of agreement can happen and then they
walk from this crime, yes, from this genocide, that is being
attempted. They must be held accountable.
And as the war grinds on, the wheels of justice have to
move as well and I stand in strong support of U.S. assistance
in this space and for the establishment of a special hybrid
tribunal to address the crime of aggression and I applaud the
formalization of cooperation between the United States and
European States and our war crimes accountability teams. And I
know the legal path of justice is precarious. But we in the
U.S. Congress are determined to provide the support needed to
secure justice for victims.
Ukrainians did not ask for this unjust war. They are only
asking for our support as they defend their homes and their
sovereignty. And it is in our national interest to provide the
support to Ukraine so that it wins this war and it will. And
after Ukraine wins, post-conflict justice and accountability
must be central in any post-war reconstruction effort. I yield
back.
Chairman McCaul. The gentleman yields back. I want to you
for your moral clarity as always envisioned. I will never
forget being on the Polish border of Ukraine with you 2 weeks
after the invasion and there were thousands and Mrs. Wagner was
there was well, thousands of women and children, refugees,
leaving their husbands and fathers behind to fight the war,
thousands of them. It could have been in black and white and it
would have looked like 1939 all over again. And every time I
travel to Poland, they tell me that. This reminds us of 1939.
We cannot let history repeat itself.
So with that, I am pleased to welcome the Prosecutor
General of the Ukraine, Mr. Kostin, before us today. We have
met several times and the last time I saw you, sir, was at the
mass grave in Bucha, a very moving experience. I commend you
for shining a light on this darkness and these Russian
atrocities that have been committed in the Ukraine and I yield
to you, sir, for your opening statement.
STATEMENT OF ANDRIY KOSTIN, PROSECUTOR GENERAL OF UKRAINE,
OFFICE OF THE PROSECUTOR GENERAL
Mr. Kostin. Thank you. Thank you, Chairman. Good morning,
Chairman McCaul, Ranking Member Meeks, and the distinguished
members of the committee.
Thank you very much for this opportunity to appear before
you today and unmask war crimes and other atrocities that
Russia is committing in Ukraine. At the outset, I wish to
convey my sincere gratefulness to the United States, its
government, and people for your unwavering and continued
support to Ukraine.
Sadly, the heinous acts described in the statements of the
two survivors that we have just heard during the briefing are
not an anomaly or an exception from what is going on their
battlefields. Rather, such a behavior is a feature of Russian
military and political doctrine and modus operandi of Russian
armed forces and their proxies.
The world has witnessed devastating effects of these
policies not only in Ukraine, but repeatedly. As described by
the Secretary of State Antony Blinken in his February 18th,
2023 announcement Russia has committed crimes against humanity
in Ukraine and ``these acts are not random or spontaneous. They
are part of Kremlin's widespread and systematic attacks against
Ukraine's citizen population.''
From February 24, 2022, we have observed and documented
brutal and deliberate attacks of Russia on residential areas,
hospitals, schools, kindergartens, and even theaters in
different cities and towns of Ukraine. A tragedy and crime of
bombing of Mariupol drama theater, which resulted in close to
600 deaths, is the most vulnerable civilian population trapped
in Mariupol. It is a clear exemplification of the criminal
strategy of the warfare of Russia.
Moreover, Russian forces regularly have been shelling
evacuation routes and convoys marked as civilians;
systematically practice torture and rape and engage in summary
executions, after which mass graves are being discovered
throughout the country. These actions have nothing to do with
waging war under the rules of international humanitarian law.
Their objective, rather, is to sow fear and terror. As of
today, we have registered close to 80,000 cases of war crimes.
Evidence of these crimes, however, is growing exponentially.
This is particularly connected to the occupation of the parts
of Ukraine. As an example, when the Ukrainian military
liberated Kherson in November 2022, the same pattern of
barbaric crimes seen in Bucha and other cities in Kyiv region,
Sumy, Chemihiv, and Izum was also uncovered there.
To date, only in Kherson, the region, over 13,000 criminal
cases in relation to crimes committed by Russian forces have
been launched. Nine hundred and eight civilians are registered
dead, only in Kherson region.
Allow me to draw your attention to a few examples of
atrocities uncovered in this beautiful part of Ukraine. Torture
chambers. We have discovered that approximately 20 such
locations and even more unlawful detention facilities. Over
1,000 torture chamber survivors submitted their evidences.
Survivors report that Russian forces subjected them to
different forms of abuse including beating with sticks and
rubber batons, use of electric shocks, waterboarding, stripping
them naked, threats of death or mutilation and others.
Moreover, they were forced to shout Russian slogans and listen
to Russian anthem. While during nights, they were hearing
screams of others being beaten.
In the course of investigation, we have discovered evidence
of financial records showing a direct linkage between the
torture chambers and the Russian security agencies. This is a
clear sign that the policy of torture is a part of criminal
plan of Moscow to subjugate Ukrainians.
Another systemic and widespread crime we detected is
enforced disappearance, that over 600 individuals whose
whereabouts are currently unknown. This is also a pattern that
is common to all territories that fell under Russian
occupation.
Public officials and political active citizens who
dissented from denouncing Ukrainians who disappeared or were
executed. Occupant forces implemented the full-scale search for
pro-Ukrainian or anti-Russian residents, journalists, Ukrainian
patriots, and targeted them.
In Kherson, like other cities and towns, sexual violence
has also been used as a political and military tactic by
Russian forces. This was done to humiliate and break resistance
of civilian populations. We have documented over 60 instances
of rape only in Kherson region. I will bring three examples.
We have an on-going investigation into the fact of 4 months
long forced deprivation of liberty, continuous rape, and
humiliation of residents of Kherson region by Russian
servicemen who enter into their house of the victims, stay
there for a prolonged time, and together with rape, threatened
the victim and her 9-year-old son this with physical violence.
We are also investigating cases of rape of minors. In one
of the villages of Kherson region, a soldier of proxy forces
abducted a minor from the house in the presence of mother and
grandmother and raped the victim.
We also have a pattern of rape and torture, as well as
sexual harassment, specifically against the family members of
Ukrainian armed forces.
One of the most horrendous crimes Russia is committing is
forced transfer. We see on a daily basis that from the part of
Kherson region, which is still under Russian occupation,
occupation Administration is carrying mass forced relocation of
residents, including children, to other temporarily occupied
territories or to the Russian Federation. This is the
continuation of the strategy of separating Ukrainians and
especially children from their parents and families with the
objective of their quick assimilation into Russian society,
Russia, even simply by the process of granting citizenship or
to forcibly transfer children.
Russia shamelessly violates fundamental tenets of
international law. It is committing core international crimes
in Ukraine, even though what I manage to discuss is just a tip
of an iceberg. It is, however, sufficient to demonstrate
inherently criminal plan of the Russian leadership to spread
fear and terror and eradicate resistance among Ukrainians so
that Russia could remove Ukrainian identity.
Moreover, crimes documented are systematic and widespread
in nature. These are clear signs of a plan of persecution
against Ukrainians as a national group, targeting Ukrainian
identity and Ukrainian Statehood. These patterns are particular
to the crime of genocide. Such evil cannot let be. It is our
joint responsibility to do everything to uncover horrific
crimes that Russia is committing in Ukraine, but exposure does
not suffice.
To ensure that this never happens again and to provide
justice for victims and survivors, all those who orchestrated
and enabled the commission of core international crimes should
be held accountable. Only with discovering and determining
truth, bringing perpetrators to responsibility, and providing
adequate reparation to victims and survivors, we could say that
justice had been done.
For these reasons, it would be paramount for us to obtain
your support on various legislative initiatives, such as
condemning illegal abduction and kidnaping of children from
Ukraine to Russia; designating the Russian-based mercenary
Wagner Group as a foreign terrorist organization; Oligarch
Assets for Ukrainian Victory Act authorizing the Department of
Justice to transfer to the Department of State the proceeds of
property seized pursuant to sanctions to be used to provide
assistance to Ukraine, as well as supporting the creation of
special tribunals for the punishment for the crime of
aggression of Russia against Ukraine.
I understand that the U.S. Congress has considered further
amendments to the penal code to include a new provision
criminalizing crimes against humanity which would prevent
impunity for such crimes when perpetrators appear on United
States soil. When the U.S. takes the lead on this issue, the
world watches and it emboldens our own efforts in obtaining
international justice.
I am confident that Ukraine, hand in hand with the United
States and other countries of the civilized world, will achieve
this. Thank you and I stand ready to answer your questions.
[The prepared statement of Mr. Kostin follows:]
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
Chairman McCaul. Thank you, sir. And from one prosecutor to
another, I commend you for your courage, your bravery, and
your--just a strong character to seek justice against these
monsters.
I want to ask you about these children. I think about
20,000 now, and that is just the ones we know about, have been
abducted and transferred into indoctrination camps in Russia.
Do we have any--is there any evidence of this? How high of
a level do you think this comes from?
Mr. Kostin. One of the most challenging tasks for all of us
is to identify not only the number of children who are forcibly
deported, but also to identify where they are. You know that
according to our information, we have information about up to
20,000 Ukrainian children who were forcibly deported. And only
a small part of them returned home.
For this, we need strong, unified pressure over Russian
leadership in order to return Ukrainian children back home.
this is easy if they want to do it. There is a set of
international legislation which could be used in order to
return children via third countries, via international
organizations to their families and to their country.
I always ask all the leaders I meet to raise this issue on
a daily basis using all your influence on the international
level that Russians will return our children home. It is also
important, and I would say historic, that the first arrest
warrant served, issued by the International Criminal Court, as
a matter of war crime committed during this full-scale
aggression, is issued against incumbent president of Russian
Federation Putin and I would say Commissioner, in brackets, for
children rights, Lvova-Belova, so that whole world now sees
that Putin is suspect war criminal and the pressure over him
and his government to return our children back should be
worldwide including the countries of global south and some
others who still try to be neutral or still try to shake hands
with Putin and his regime. They also need to see that Putin is
a suspect in war crimes which has forced deportation and
abduction of Ukrainian children.
Chairman McCaul. Do you believe the orders to abduct and
indoctrinate these 20,000 children that we know about, that
order comes directly from Putin?
Mr. Kostin. This order comes, yes, directly from Mr. Putin
and we have a set of legislature acts and a set of his even
public statements which confirm that he ordered such policy.
And this information is also in line with the findings of the
team of Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court with
whom we cooperate on constant scale.
Chairman McCaul. I think it is important this abduction of
children, transporting, and indoctrinating falls squarely
within the definition of genocide.
Mr. Kostin. Absolutely. We follow our investigation for
such war crimes in two dimensions, as war crimes and potential
as a crime of genocide.
Chairman McCaul. Can you describe your--this will be my
last question--your relationship with our Department of
Justice? Are they fully cooperating with your investigation?
Mr. Kostin. I am grateful for the Department of Justice,
and personally the Attorney General Merrick Garland, for
unprecedented support and coordination of our efforts. We are
also cooperating with other--investigation of other war crimes,
and we have a cooperation with regard also to the case of
deportation of Ukrainian children, the details I will not
disclose at the moment.
Chairman McCaul. Thank you, sir. I now recognize the
Ranking Member.
Mr. Meeks. Thank you, Mr. Kostin, again, for joining us
today. And picking up from where Chairman McCaul, I think that
I understand that you have indeed had a meeting with your
counterpart, Attorney General Garland recently, and that the
DOJ is going to increase its support and send additional
investigators to the Hague and to our embassy in Kyiv.
So let me ask for you to describe the needs of your office,
the Office of the Prosecutor General going forward. What sort
of forensic labs and equipment and personnel does the Office
need so that you can continue to be effective and how are other
international partners assisting your efforts and filling
capacity gaps that may remain so that you can get and do
everything you need so that we can make sure that justice is
had?
Mr. Kostin. Thank you. Thank you for your question. We
receive, continue to receive all necessary technical support
from the U.S. Government which is needed to conduct proper
investigation and documentation of the war crimes of this war
of aggression.
We are grateful for technical support, from notebooks, cell
phones, personal protective equipment, generators, power
stations. You know, we have had very difficult winter and for
many times some of my offices were cut of energy, were cutoff
resources for several days. And we are grateful for supply of
generators which helped us to not only to run our offices, but
also to proceed our work documenting and investigating war
crimes.
What we need now more within the course of our
investigations, we collect huge amounts of data that needs to
be stored and analyzed and it requires proper equipment and
proper IT solutions. We are now, with the help of our partners
in the United States, are in good contact with providers of the
data--providers of IT solutions like Microsoft, like Palantir,
who are granting us free access to their IT solutions. We need
to analyze terabytes of photo, video, voice information to
match them for a specific crime scene in order to--not to lose
any evidence that we have collected. Because it is not only us
who are collecting evidence, they are also collected by people.
They are also collected by non-governmental organizations, by
civil society organizations.
And I am also especially grateful for your assistance to
our NGO's and civil society organizations who are really
helping us not only with documenting of war crimes, but also
helping us with the communications with witnesses and
survivors. You know how sensitive it is in some as I mentioned.
And I am also grateful and we will need more assistance and I
believe we will get it.
We are now creating a coordination center for the victims,
survivors, and witnesses of war crimes under the umbrella of
the Office of Prosecutor General. We know that the interests of
survivors and witnesses of this war should be our center of our
attention and efforts.
Mr. Meeks. Let me also ask, I know that there are multiple
efforts including those at the ICC and the U.N. that they
contribute to build a legitimacy for the establishment of a
special hybrid tribunal for the crime of aggression. So how can
the United States better support efforts to broaden the
legitimacy of international legal mechanisms so that everybody
is going after these crimes against humanity like Putin and
some other vicious individuals who are committing those crimes?
Mr. Kostin. Thank you. I think that the establishment of
special tribunal for the crime of aggression is an extremely
important element of our web of accountability because the
crime of aggression which is a leadership crime and which
leaded to all other war crimes committed should be prosecuted
and punished on an international level. We have our own
investigation for the crime of aggression, but we cannot reach
troika, including President of Russian Federation, because of
personal immunity and we need international mechanisms which
should have a broad support of all the countries who know that
act of aggression was committed and who believe that act of
aggression should be punished on international level.
It is not only a war of Russia against Ukraine. It is a
global war. I do not know any country which does not feel the
consequences of this war of aggression in many layers, but
everyone, this war touches every country in the world. This war
touches any citizen, any person in the world, even if some of
them do not understand this now, they will understand this in
the future and it is our joint, it is our joint responsibility
not only before the victims and survivors of this war of
aggression to ensure their measure of justice for their crime
of aggression committed by Russia. It goes to our obligation
before future generations because you are absolutely right,
both of you, that Nuremberg trials ensured long-lasting peace
in Europe for decades.
Now we have a gap in international system of law and order.
We need to fill in this gap and to ensure long-lasting peace
for Europe and for global-global level after this war. And
proper international tribunal for the crime of aggression will
also play a deterrent factor for any future aggressor who could
try to become an aggressor in any part of the world.
And I would also add, it is not only our obligation before
the victims and survivors of this war. Not only our common
obligation before the future generation, it is our obligation
commemorating all victims of the previous wars and conflicts
who did not receive their measure of justice. We do not need to
forget about them. And only united we will reach this goal. I
firmly believe in it. Thank you for your question.
Mr. Meeks. Thank you very much.
Chairman McCaul. Very powerful. I remember visiting with a
Ukrainian soldier the last time I was in Ukraine. He said we
are fighting for you. We are fighting for the free world. And
they are.
The chair now recognizes Mr. Smith.
Mr. Smith. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman, and thank you
for convening this extraordinarily important hearing and Mr.
Prosecutor General, thank you for your leadership, your
testimony.
Seventy-eight thousand war crimes, I mean that is
outrageous and the fact that the ICC only just a few weeks ago
finally brought action against two individuals, as you said,
the so-called Commission--children's issues and, of course,
Putin, in a very, very narrow, but important area of focus to
me speaks volumes of the lack of response by the international
community when it comes to accountability.
A year ago on March 8th, I chaired a hearing of the Tom
Lantos Human Rights Commission, talking about the need for
accountability and bringing a resolution to the United Nations
that would do what? Not at the Security Council, but in the
General Assembly, to have a tribunal on the war--of crime of
aggression. I asked and I introduced resolution within a couple
of days of that, asking that the Administration use his voice
and vote at the U.N. And any country in the U.N. can bring such
a resolution to bring this war of aggression, tribunal, into
existence.
I had David Drane, a man who prosecuted war crimes against
Charles Taylor at a hearing a year ago and he said the General
Assembly could create this. It could do it immediately. You are
not going to get it in the Security Council. It would be vetoed
by China and by Russia, but it can happen in the General
Assembly.
So I think especially based on your incredible work that
you are doing, the world has to unite behind such a tribunal
that, in fact, only two people, they are not the only two
responsible. You know, even Lukashenko perhaps should be
included in that list, but certainly all of these generals and
the people that are on the ground committing these horrific war
crimes need to be named, indicted, and then brought to trial,
like you said, with the War Crimes Tribunal at Nuremberg. So I
would ask you again, all of us, to redouble our efforts to
create such an ad hoc tribunal.
You know, you look at the ICC, 20 years of existence, over
20 years, they have had ten convictions. They do not have a
stellar track record. I am glad they have done what they have
done, but they do not have a great track record and they do it
very narrowly. They should have done this immediately. We were
calling for that. I was calling for that. That is the reason I
had the hearing and the resolution, so I just would call on all
of us and I know you are doing the hard work. You know, it
shouldn't be the country that is being so horribly and cruelly
mistreated, fall to you to be the accountability mechanism and
yet you are doing it.
So following your inspiration, we need an ad hoc tribunal
and we need it now and I hope the Administration, ours, or any
other country that is concerned, would table a resolution at
the General Assembly to establish such a tribunal. And your
thoughts on that.
Mr. Kostin. Thank you so much. Thank you for your absolute
commitment to ensure full accountability for the aggressor,
including for the crime of aggression and thank you for your
understanding that it should be done internationally with wide
range of countries supporting this tribunal.
We absolutely agree that one of the ways of establishment
of this tribunal could be the resolution of General Assembly of
United Nations which will give the right to the Secretary
General of the United Nations to sign an agreement with Ukraine
and to establish an international tribunal. We are standing for
these positions and we will proceed our communication with all
our partners, friends, and allies, in order to reach this
proper solution for the international tribunal.
Coming back to the work with the ICC, I will tell you,
frankly, that the speed of reaction of the Prosecutor of the
ICC, in these cases, in the war crimes committed in Ukraine is
unbelievable. It was nothing before. This case which was filed
by the Prosecutor Karim Khan to the ICC and where ICC issued an
arrest warrant, I will tell you, it took us 5 months to prepare
this case. This is very speedy manner of work. Because we
prosecutors, we need to prepare the case--we have no right to
lose this case. No one can imagine that it could happen. That
is why we need to be very careful.
We have other cases under our consideration and it is
important that in our situation, Ukraine fully cooperated with
the International Criminal Court. In some cases before in the
history of the ICC, they tried to overcome the resistance of
national authority and even the ICC was created for the cases
where national government is unwilling or unable to prosecute
war crimes committed in their country. We are willing and we
are able and we are grateful for the ICC that first case they
filed before the--I mean we are grateful for Prosecutor Khan,
that first case they filed before the ICC has been fully
complementary in this nature because we cannot prosecute Putin
because of his immunity and this first case includes Putin and
Lvova-Belova and other cases will follow. Be sure.
Mr. Smith. I appreciate that. Thank you.
Mr. Wilson [presiding]. Thank you very much, Congressman
Chris Smith of New Jersey.
We now proceed to Congressman Bill Keating of
Massachusetts.
Mr. Keating. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. At the outset, first
and foremost, I want to thank and acknowledge the courage of
those witnesses and the representatives who shared their
stories this morning. They are commonplace. Last year I was at
the border of Ukraine and met with people on the ground that
are assisting these victims and I would like to acknowledge the
work that they are doing, risking their lives to help these
victims as citizens of Ukraine, as nonprofit citizens of
Ukraine working together.
As a former district attorney, I have listened to stories
of so many victims, the most heinous crimes. And I know the
scars and the trauma that they leave behind. And I also know
the importance of obtaining justice for those going forward on
these unthinkable crimes and also the importance of swift
action while this is taking place.
And I commend you for the terrific job that you are doing
in this regard, a hard job of doing this so quickly with
urgency, because that serves as a deterrence while this war
continues. For other people committing these acts of atrocity
for our witnesses earlier this morning, for the thousands of
individuals living in Ukraine who have been victims of these
atrocities, we must hold the Russians--Russia war criminals,
that is what they are, we must hold them accountable.
Prosecutor Kostin, thank you for being here again today and
September of last year. As chair of the subcommittee, you were
a witness again. I had the privilege of hearing you testify and
to help us better understand the atrocities that are occurring,
the human rights abuses that have been committed by Russia. And
we have met several times, including yesterday, talking about
what we can do going forward. And I thank you for this special
relationship that I will continue to work with you on this.
One of the issues that we have worked on together is what
has been spoken about this morning, the crime of aggression.
Based on these discussions that we have had, I have introduced
House Res. 81, calling on the President to support the creation
of a special tribunal for the punishment of crimes of
aggression against Ukraine.
Today, as you have heard in previous hearings, you again
demonstrate a clear foundation of evidence that you have
established in showing atrocity of these crimes and for the
crime of aggression and I strongly urge this committee to take
up this piece of legislation quickly because of its urgent
nature.
In addition, we have also discussed in detail the situation
of child abductions in Ukraine and the atrocities that surround
them, just disappearing, taking them away from their families.
As I mentioned to you yesterday, together with my
colleagues in the Ukraine Caucus, I recently introduced
legislation, House Res. 304 supporting the International
Criminal Court's issuance of arrest warrants for Vladimir Putin
and Maria Lvova-Belova, Russia's Children's Rights
Commissioner. What an ironic and sad title that is when you
consider her war crimes that she is committing along with Putin
himself.
This resolution is bipartisan. And I believe it has a
strong message to the international community. It is not just
about U.S. It is not about Ukraine. It is for the international
community so that we demonstrate the seriousness which the
United States takes these investigations.
Given the testimony we have heard today, I hope that that
legislation is taken very swiftly up by this committee and move
forward.
I also, with your consultation over this time, introduced
the Atrocity Crimes Relief and Accountability Act. A portion of
this legislation was included in the omnibus last year. The
Ukrainian refugees living in the United States on humanitarian
parole can share their stories and support ICC investigations
related to war crimes.
The omnibus also included a provision encouraging U.S.
Government's efforts to share evidence related to the atrocity
of crimes in Ukraine and I urge all of us to take up that
mandate. I realize these things are just small steps to going
forward, but I will continue to work with you in that regard.
In just the brief time we have, could you share with us,
and you did so very forcefully about the need for acting
together on establishing a special tribunal or working with
holding Putin and Lvova-Belova accountable, the importance of
doing it as a deterrence for current actions on the ground. How
can these actions that we do here and the actions that you are
doing prosecuting save future victims of this because it will
deter people and soldiers on the ground now?
Mr. Kostin. Thank you, Congressman Keating and thank you
for your constant support during these months of our joint
work.
I will start with the special tribunal. You know, I think
that for the survivors who witnessed today in this hall, it
will be a great signal of action, support by action, if
Congress will support your resolution on establishment of
special tribunal because this is--this is the needs of
Ukrainian nation. They all understand, we all understand that
if act of aggression would not have been committed, it would
have saved the lives of hundreds of thousands of people who
were killed in course of this war of aggression.
Let's not forget about our servicemen. Their lives are not
protected by the international humanitarian law because they
fight protecting their country, but who is responsible for the
deaths of our servicemen, those who started aggression? Let's
not forget about our servicemen, about their families, their
mothers, wives, children, their husbands. We have a lot of
servicemen, women, who also were killed and the only measure of
justice for them is to hold aggressor accountable for the crime
of aggression.
And establishment of this tribunal is not only to ensure a
measure of justice for them, but also it will be a strong
signal to Putin and also to his surroundings, people who
support him, but who maybe do not want to die with him. It
could help to obtain changes within Russia because everyone in
Russia including should understand that Putin will be forever
war criminal, not only for war crimes, not only potentially for
the crimes against humanity and for genocide, but also for the
crime of aggression. And this should deter any future aggressor
in any other part of the world who starts aggression. Only if
they will see that all countries are united and ready to punish
aggressor for the act of aggression.
Mr. Wilson. Thank you very much, Congressman Keating. I now
recognize myself. And I am so grateful for the leadership of
Chairman Mike McCaul and Ranking Member Greg Meeks.
You can see this is bipartisan support by our leadership to
expose to the American people, to the Russian people the
murders, atrocities of war criminal Putin. Additionally, indeed
it is unprecedented really how bipartisan this is with
Congressman Keating and myself and the others who are here
today in support of the people of Ukraine for victory. To the
survivors of war criminal Putin's mass murderer and Prosecutor
General, thank you for being here today.
Also, I want to thank Ambassador Oksana Markarova who has
been so effective to the people of Ukraine here in Washington.
Your testimony is critical to exposing the heinous acts of war
criminal Putin. As Chairman of the Helsinki Commission, I was
grateful to lead House Resolution 154, recognizing Putin
atrocities in Ukraine as genocide with Ranking Member Steve
Cohen.
The litany of war crimes, including the forced kidnaping,
raping, murdering of Ukrainian children dictates that we call
these actions what they are, genocide. This war, General, is
being recorded as no other war has been before. Through video,
cell phones, drones, open source intelligence, satellites, and
other digital sources, photographs and reporting are being
disseminated through social media, including Telegram.
Additionally, with barcode on military equipment for the
courageous people of Ukraine, American taxpayers can be assured
that there is a tracking of the equipment so that it is not
diverted. Intentional diversion can be avoided. International
organizations and NGO's are collecting information and evidence
and using also artificial intelligence using facial recognition
software for the military who are committing atrocities. What
opportunities and challenges do these technologies pose? How
can evidence restored to ensure that it is not corrupted or
altered?
Mr. Kostin. Thank you. Thank you, Congressman Wilson, for
your strong support and thank you for your question. We return
to the issue of how to use all the evidence which are collected
electronically. And we just store it in different places at the
moment, how to use them as a matter of evidence, and how not to
lose the cases where we have evidence which are collected
electronically.
We have procedures that allow us to use the electronically
collected evidence as a matter of evidence in criminal cases.
Of course, it usually should be supported by other evidence
collected. We have the cases where only because they wear
cameras still operating we have identified perpetrators of the
war crimes committed.
When Chairman McCaul was in Bucha, we showed the video of
the case where people tried to evacuate on 25 of February. And
because of the camera still operating, we identified all of the
perpetrators, all of the servicemen of Russian army. It was not
easy because you couldn't just use this camera which is not
with a very high quality. But when we try to use other elements
of open source intelligence information, when we looked through
their internet----
Mr. Wilson. And General, I want to point out too, with the
facial recognition, you can identify the soldiers. And then you
will be able to identify the chain of command.
Mr. Kostin. Yes.
Mr. Wilson. The chain of command and the Russian military
needs to know that they will be prosecuted. A final question
from me, Putin's shameful disinformation claims that reports of
crimes are fake. The mass murder and rape of Ukrainian women
and children by Putin troops is well documented as you said.
What more can be done for the international community to
counter Putin's disgusting narrative? Do you think that the
Russian public will ever believe that the crimes were created
and carried by Russian forces? And on my many visits to Russia,
I was so impressed by the people I met there.
They are so talented, and I just had such high hopes for
the people of Russia. Sadly, though, this week, I joined with
the Washington Post supporting the Russian patriot Vladimir
Kara-Murza for fighting for a free Russia. How can we
communicate with the people of the world but particularly maybe
the people of Russia?
Mr. Kostin. First, I will answer the first question about
the evidence of atrocious war crimes. What we did starting from
the appearance in Bucha, we immediately invited and ask all
world known media to join our first police and special forces
when they entered the city. We did the same when we liberated
Kharkiv region.
And as soon as we get information about mass grave in
Izium, we did not dig these mass graves before all journalists
who wanted to be present come. And this was done in presence.
So this is the best evidence for the world that everything
which we are telling is true. For the second question, I am
sorry. It was about----
Mr. Wilson. How can we appeal to the people of Russia the
truth? And you just answered it. And so with that, I am
actually happy to now recognize the distinguished
Congressperson from Rhode Island, Congressman David Cicilline.
Mr. Cicilline. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you,
Prosecutor General Kostin. It is good to see you again, and
thank you for your testimony and most importantly for the
important work that you are doing and your colleagues to ensure
that both the Ukrainian government and the international
community seek and obtain accountability for the horrific war
crimes that Russia has carried out in Ukraine. And we have all
watched as well as the entire international community has
witnesses Russia launch air strikes and missile attacks on
apartment buildings, a maternity ward, schools, train stations,
and other civilian targets.
In Bucha, journalists and forensic doctors have
meticulously documented the horrors carried about by Russian
forces, including as you said the rape, torture, and execution
of civilians. And throughout Ukraine, we have seen Russian
forces forcibly deport Ukrainians, including thousands of young
children to Russian controlled areas. These heinous acts are
war crimes plain and simple. And both the United States and the
entire international community have a critical role to play in
supporting the Ukrainians government and the international
institutions as they work to pursue justice and accountability
for all the victims of these horrific atrocities.
And so my first question, Mr. Kostin, is according to
UNESCO, more than 240 Ukrainian Heritage Sites are estimated to
have been damaged since the Russian invasion last year,
including the Kharkiv State Academic Opera Theater and
Mariupol's Museum of Local Lore. Putin has terrifyingly made
culture both a justification and an object of war with Ukraine
with deliberate aims to destroy what it means to be Ukrainian.
So my first question is, how can the international community
and particularly the United States support your efforts with
respect this particular pernicious effort by the Russian
government and Russian forces?
Mr. Kostin. Thank you for your question. We, of course,
treat these actions as an element of intentional and
potentially genocidal policy of Russian Federation. Our team,
we have a special team of war crimes prosecutors who are now
concentrated on our structural case of the crime of genocide.
And we are collecting evidence together with our State
institutions in order to not only to fix the number of cultural
heritage destroyed by Russian forces but also to establish the
links between this destroying and some other actions. Like, for
instance, we are now establishing and talking about different
story, establishing the links between cyber and kinetic attacks
on objects of critical civil infrastructure, trying to
establish the case of cyber crime as a war crime.
So coming back to the heritage, of course, we will need
more expert support because the issue of cultural prosecution
and punishment for the cultural genocide is not very well
established on the world level. So I will be grateful for
expert support in this field in order to check the evidence and
to prepare a strong case. And I fully agree with you that this
is an act of genocide.
Mr. Cicilline. Thank you. And we passed in the last
Congress a piece of legislation called Justice for Victims of
War Crimes that Senator Grassley and Senator Durbin and
Representative Spartz and I worked on which would allow us to
prosecute people for war crimes if they are in the United
States for war crimes they have committed anywhere in the world
which I think will give us an additional tool. But as Mr.
Keating was saying, it is so important for the Russian military
to see evidence that they will be held accountable if they
continue to engage in this really horrific conduct.
What can we do right now as members of the U.S. Congress to
support your work and make certain that you are successful as
the chief prosecutor in holding both Vladimir Putin and all of
the Russian military accountable for their conduct? What can we
be doing to be helpful?
Mr. Kostin. I will not repeat the issue of supporting of
special tribunal. I have already pointed out this. I would say
that the extension or expending of the corporation with the
International Criminal Court in cases related to the war crimes
committed in Ukraine would be also helpful because we are, as I
mentioned, in very good cooperation with the ICC.
And they could need some piece of evidence which could be
collected here. And third, of course, we are asking for sharing
with us more intelligence information. There are cases of war
crimes known globally, worldwide, where we need some
information which we cannot receive by any other sources. So if
we will have more support on sharing of intelligence
information for the purpose of making Russia accountable, this,
I believe, will be very helpful for the matter of justice.
Mr. Cicilline. Thank you so much. I yield back, Mr.
Chairman.
Mr. Wilson. Thank you, Congressman Cicilline. We now
proceed to Congressman Scott Perry of Pennsylvania.
Mr. Perry. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. And thank
you, Prosecutor General, for being here. It is going to be hard
for any of us to hold the sovereign nation of Russia or its
leader accountable. We need to try and do that.
In the meaning, what we can do is make sure that we are on
our best behavior. And as you probably know in America
yesterday was tax day. Americans are forced to send in their
hard earned dollars oftentimes for things they do not agree
with.
It is in total about 30 billion dollars in humanitarian aid
that we have sent to Ukraine. And I just want to run through a
series of dates and reports for you. In 2011, a report by the
Atlantic said that citizens of Ukraine thought that bribes were
customary and expected.
In 2011, the president of Ukraine Stated that bribes and
corruption cost the country about two and a half billion or 10
to 15 percent of the country's budget. In 2016, a report
indicated that between 38 and 42 percent reported paying a
bribe to access basic public services. In 2022, the former head
of the Asset Recovery and Management Agency was charged with
embezzling 10.6 million dollars in funds.
And in 2022, the National Corruption Bureau of Ukraine
observed and noted corruption remained common at all levels in
the executive, legislative, and judicial branches. Sir, we want
to make sure that all our money is safeguarded and that we are
not involved not only in losing that money that the American
taxpayer works hard for but in the corruption itself. And I
want to bring another series of events to you.
The U.K. Serious Fraud Office froze 23 million dollars of a
guy named Zlochevsky's assets. He was in charge of Burisma. On
April 13 of 2014, Hunter Biden said the contract should start
now, not after the upcoming visit of my guy, his guy being the
Vice President of the United States.
On April 22 of the same year, Hunter and Archer said that
Ukraine must understand the value of Burisma. And on May 12 of
2014, Hunter Biden said, started working for the Burisma board
at 83,000 dollars in change per month. On May 12, Zlochevsky's
envoy said, use your influence to combat the Ukrainian
government's allegations against Burisma.
George Kent from our embassy told the DOJ that Burisma paid
7 million dollars in bribes to prosecutors to kill the
investigation into bribes for gas and oil permit license.
February 10, 2015, Yarema replaced by Viktor Shokin. And then a
Soros-funded activist group called the Anti-Corruption Action
Center which is ironic said that Shokin was not pursuing
Zlochevsky which, of course, was absolutely not the case
because on February 2 of the same year, Viktor Shokin issued
arrest warrants for Zlochevsky and wanted to seize his assets.
And the on February 12 of 2016, President Biden called then
Present Poroshenko. And then on February 17/18 of 2016,
literally 10 days later thereabouts, Victor Shokin, the
prosecutor general, was fired. May 13 of 2016, Joe Biden, the
President now, Vice President then tells President Poroshenko
that one billion dollars in loan guarantees would be
forthcoming.
And then in the intervening time, President--well, then
Vice President Biden went before the Council on Foreign
Relations and announced that I told them they had to fire the
prosecutor general or they wouldn't get the loan guarantees.
And what do you know, son of bitch, the prosecutor was fired.
And then on 2020--in April 2020, Victor Shokin was formerly
recorded as the victim of an alleged crime by former Vice
President Joe Biden.
So sir, with all of that information, in 2019, once of your
predecessors as prosecutor general announced a reinvestigation
into Burisma and some of their high-level employees. The
prosecutor general was reopening and auditing criminal cases
that his office believes had been mishandled or that the
conduct of the previous offices had not been proper. Since that
time, if it announced that those investigations have been put
on hold because of the inability to locate the former CEO of
Burisma.
But we probably can and we probably can locate Hunter
Biden. Mr. Kostin, what is your office's position that Burisma
needs further investigation? And will you commit to
investigating Burisma to the full extent no matter what
pushback you get and no matter who you need to call as a
witness, including Americans that might be involved in the
corruption and malfeasance and loss and theft of taxpayer money
in your country?
Mr. Kostin. Congressman, you started with the dates and
facts. I will add one date and fact. March 2023, by the
decision of GRECO, anti-corruption wing of the Council of
Europe, is Ukraine is excluded from the blacklist of countries
who are not fighting against corruption for our work fighting
corruption----
Mr. Perry. We congratulate you for that.
Mr. Kostin [continuing]. Against members of the parliament,
prosecutors and judges.
Mr. Perry. We congratulate you for that.
Mr. Kostin. Thank you. This is the latest achievement in
anti-corruption initiatives. I also would like to mention that
in course of coming last month, in addition to the chair of
special anti-corruption prosecutor's office whom I appointed in
late July last year, we have already new director of National
Anti-Corruption Bureau of Ukraine appointed after open
selection procedure.
And also, high anti-corruption court has elected the
president of the court. So all three bodies are equipped with
the current leadership. With regard to case you have mentioned,
it is not unfortunately the topic of our committee hearing.
So I am not entitled at the moment to get you more
information about this case. It is our committee hearing
related to war crimes. And with regard to all financial aid we
receive, I have mentioned our two latest achievements on the
level on our work against fighting against corruption. Thank
you.
Mr. Perry. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield.
Mr. Wilson. Thank you, Congressman Perry. We now proceed to
Congresswoman Susan Wild of Pennsylvania.
Ms. Wild. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you,
Prosecutor General. I believe that you were just subjected to a
diatribe from somebody who did not actually hear the testimony
earlier today which is a shame. I wanted to ask you, sir, what
more can the United States and other countries do to help
facilitate the abducted children's return?
Mr. Kostin. I think that we all should be vocal as I
mentioned every day, not only the governments of States, I
mean, not from the U.S. but the others. But also maybe you all
as members of parliament who represent American nation, I would
also--I think that Putin who is suspect in committing this
crime should feel that he stayed alone. And even governments of
some countries who are trying once again to be complimentary to
him should receive strong feedback--let me use this word--from
the other countries, including the U.S., saying that this--you
cannot be neutral with regard to such crime committed by Putin.
Ms. Wild. I would agree with you on that, and I think that
a number of us try very hard to elevate this subject as much as
possible. I would also note that the subject of missing,
exploited, kidnaped children does not belong in any discussion
about political matters such as my colleague just raised. Can I
ask you, has the United States' assistance to Ukraine been
sufficient? And specifically, I am not talking about weapons or
anything else, in the efforts to return and reintegrate
Ukrainian children?
Mr. Kostin. Let me be very honest. I do not think that we
are in a situation that any assistance is sufficient until our
children are returned home.
Ms. Wild. Fair enough.
Mr. Kostin. And what I would like to ask you because we are
trying to find out, to invent maybe other ideas what could be
done. And I am asking you also to try to help us with this
because we try everything. Maybe you will invent something
more.
Ms. Wild. Thank you. I know that the U.N. Human Rights
Office has played a critical role in documenting children's
human rights violations by Russian forces. And they have
confirmed 487 cases of children killed, 954 injured, with the
actual numbers almost certainly much higher.
They have also documented some of the heinous crimes
against children that we do not need to go into again right
now. But has that been helpful to ensure the welfare of
deported children or in helping them to return to Ukraine? Or
would your answer be similar to your last one which is helpful
but nothing is enough until we get them back?
Mr. Kostin. I think once again, nothing is enough. But in
this situation, we need as broad support as it is possible. We
understand some complexities dealing with U.S. institutions
with regard to U.N. position which could be not very strict in
some cases with regard to the evidence of war crimes we have.
But we commend the work of U.N. institutions because they help
us to----
Ms. Wild. Promote awareness?
Mr. Kostin. Yes, to promote awareness and maybe to change
approach of those internationally who are still complementary
with Putin and his team because----
Ms. Wild. Let me just stop you there because I have one
last question, and I only have about 20 seconds left. Can you
just address for us without getting into anything that will
endanger anybody how you go about tracing and contacting
Ukrainian children in Russia?
Mr. Kostin. We use different ways. And I cannot disclose
this information publicly.
Ms. Wild. Fair enough. I wouldn't want you to do anything
like that. Thank you so much. I really appreciate your
testimony here today.
Mr. Wilson. Thank you, Congresswoman Wild. We now proceed
to the Vice Chairwoman Ann Wagner of Missouri.
Mrs. Wagner. I thank my colleague, Congressman Wilson, for
giving me the time. And I thank Chairman McCaul and Ranking
Member Meeks for prioritizing this urgent matter. And
Prosecutor General Kostin, thank you for being here today.
The testimony we heard prior to this hearing was
devastating. And we are grateful for the work that you were
doing to bring war criminals to justice. We cannot rest in our
efforts to target all those in Russia who are complicit in the
Kremlin's crimes.
And it is my belief that culpability for the appalling
atrocities that Russia has committed goes right to the very
top. Putin and his cronies must pay for the indiscriminate and
wanton violence they have unleashed on the Ukrainian people,
including women and innocent children, the ill, infirm,
elderly, and the most vulnerable. I did, in fact, travel to the
Ukraine-Poland border.
It was just over, I guess, a year ago, right, with many
members on this committee, including Ms. Wild, as millions of
Ukrainian civilians fled Putin's full scale invasion. We met so
many brave children and women making a terrifying journey from
everything they had ever known and loved to become refugees in
a strange country. And I hope and pray that many of these
refugees have been able to return home and begin to put back
together their lives in some way, shape, or form.
But I had been heartbroken to see the reports that
thousands of Ukrainian children had been kidnaped and forcibly
deported to Russia. I will tell you as a mother and a
grandmother this is absolutely chilling. Furthermore, it is
genocidal.
And I believe that the United States should lead the way in
calling out Putin's regime for these unthinkable crimes. You
are quite correct, sir, when you say that the world is
watching. And I believe that history will judge us. Prosecutor
General Kostin, as you know, to constitute genocide, there must
be a proven intent on the part of perpetrators to eliminate an
national, ethnical, racial, or religious group. Can you provide
clear examples of Russia's genocidal intent to destroy the
Ukrainian people?
Mr. Kostin. Thank you. Thank you, Congressman Wagner, for
your question. I do not want to read these quotes of Russians,
but I will do it.
Putin's former advisor Surkov, quote, ``there is no
Ukraine. There Ukrainianism. That is to say a peculiar disorder
of mind surprisingly taken to extremes by a fascination with
ethnography. Such blood local history. A mess instead of a
State. There is borscht, Bandera, bandura, and there is no
nation.'' Surkov was not only one of the advisors of Putin. He
was also involved in negotiations in Trilateral Contact Group
so called Minsk Agreement, Normandy format which we are held
starting from 2014 until----
Mrs. Wagner. Have you presented this evidence to Secretary
Blinken? And have you asked him to make a genocide
determination? And if so, how did he respond?
Mr. Kostin. Not yet at the moment.
Mrs. Wagner. I encourage you to do that. And I encourage
this committee to do the same. What are your office's most
significant challenges in investigating Russian war crimes and
their atrocities committed in Ukraine since a full scale
invasion? And what additional U.S. support would most enhance
your office's ability to investigate the tens of thousands of
allegations of war crimes that you have received and facilitate
effective prosecutions?
Mr. Kostin. The most challenging is to identify the
perpetrators, especially in cases where the survivors have
physical contact. I mean, if they were forcibly detained, not
about sexual abuse or any torture in other war crimes where
they saw these people. But if the people were protected, their
faces were protected, it is not very easy to identify these
perpetrators.
In some cases, we have identified the military units. We
have identified who was the commander of military unit. But we
need also to identify the perpetrators. In other cases like
intentional destroying or missile attacks against our critical
civil infrastructure----
Mrs. Wagner. Right.
Mr. Kostin [continuing]. Some of these attacks 1,000
kilometers far from out border by air forces of Russian
Federation because these missiles can fly 1,000 kilometers. And
the consequences of these attacks you know are in some cases
ten of civilians killed, hundreds of civilians wounded. And we
need to identify who give coordinates of the object. Who gave
the order and who initially pushed the button.
Mrs. Wagner. Well, certainly my time has expired. I
appreciate the Chair's indulgence. And I would just say this.
The U.S. must provide whatever technical resource support that
we can to help you get these prosecutions. And I will yield
back. Thank you again, sir, very much.
Mr. Kostin. Thank you. And in this respect, once again, the
sharing of intelligence information could be helpful to
investigate such cases. Thank you.
Mr. Wilson. Thank you very much, Chair, Vice Chair Ann
Wagner for your passion. And we now proceed to Congresswoman
Dina Titus of Nevada.
Ms. Titus. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you, Mr.
Prosecutor General, for your very compelling testimony and the
people of Ukraine's resistence, resilience, heroism. It has
impressed all the world and certainly me and this body.
We are hearing a lot, of course, that the immediate news is
what Russia is doing in Ukraine and the horrendous impact of
the human suffering as a result of its war crimes. But we
really shouldn't be surprised because if you look at the
history of Russia, it certainly confirms that they are likely
doing it in Ukraine. You look at Mali. You look at Chechnya.
You look at Syria. You look at Central African Republic.
They have been charged with war crimes in all of those
places. So what they are doing now is more immediate and
certainly perhaps more involving children. But it is not
surprising. This is a long history that they have.
I would ask you, what about some of the independent
agencies or NGO's? How helpful are they, and what could they be
doing? Radio Free Europe, Red Cross, Amnesty International,
Doctors Without Borders, are they there on the ground and being
helpful?
Mr. Kostin. First of all, thank you for mentioning Russia
as a State who used to abuse international law and order. You
mentioned actually some jurisdictions where Russia is actively
acting against law and order globally using their criminal
groups like Wagner Group. And I think that this is the momentum
where Europe, Ukraine, and United States, and all of our other
allies should be united in order to put an end for such groups
like Wagner Group who are earning money illegally in some
countries of Africa and use this money to kill our people in
Ukraine and use this money to support those members of Wagner
Group who commit war crimes against our prisoners of war,
against our civilians and occupied territories.
So for this, we need to be united. I think it is momentum
to do it. For the question you asked, we have strongest support
from the non-governmental and civil society organizations in
Ukraine.
We have a group in my office which is named a group of
international experts where we have six directions of activity
with regard to investigation and prosecution of war crimes,
starting from children, sexual violence, and others, including
the protection of rights of media journalists who were killed
and suffered during this war of aggression because
internationally--I mean, we have foreign journalists who were
also killed and who are investigating these cases together with
other--my colleagues from other countries. But this group
includes more than 40 NGO's and civil society organizations.
And most of them are supported by grants from the United States
and from European Union countries.
And for this, it makes it impossible for them to help us in
documenting and prosecuting war crimes to help to deal with
victims and survivors, especially from vulnerable groups. And
this work is extremely important. We are communicating with
them on a permanent basis.
I have a special enjoy in my office who is communicating
with all our NGO's and civil society organizations. So we are
united with them. And their support is very important.
Ms. Titus. I am glad to hear that. That is great. Let me
ask you about some of Russia's allies like Belarus. Are they
engaged in this too or should they be held accountable when all
is said and done?
Mr. Kostin. We have the citizens of Belarus who are
identified as war criminals. And we have cases against them,
even some of them already finished with conviction. I firmly
remember about one case.
And we, of course, for us does not matter who from which
country war criminal is. If war crime is committed on Ukrainian
land against Ukrainians wherever, we indict and we convict all
of them. Thank you.
Ms. Titus. Thank you. I yield back.
Mr. Wilson. Thank you very much, Congresswoman Titus. We
now proceed to Congressman Andy Barr of Kentucky.
Mr. Barr. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And I thank the witness.
And I think your testimony here today demonstrates that Russian
crimes against humanity in Ukraine, it is not just about
supporting the Ukrainian resistance and the sovereignty of
Ukraine as a nation and as a people.
But it is also about countering a systematic and widespread
attack against civilization. That is what NATO assistance of
Ukraine is about. It is about certainly supporting the
Ukrainian resistence in defense of the freedom and sovereignty
of Ukraine. But it is also a defense of humanity and
civilization. And I commend your testimony here today.
We know that throughout history, occupations are expensive
and that insurgencies are less expensive. Can you talk about
whether Russia is prepared for a long conflict and whether
Russia has the ability militarily and economically to support a
long-term occupation of a population that will fight for them?
And what has been the reaction of supposedly ethnic Russian
people in the face of these war crimes in Ukraine?
Mr. Kostin. Could you--the last part of your question?
Mr. Barr. Yes, so----
Mr. Kostin. You mean Russian ethnic people who are citizens
of Ukraine?
Mr. Barr. Right. The supposedly Russian ethnic people, are
they resisting? And does Russia have the capability of
maintaining a long-term occupation of a population that is
resistant to their occupation?
Mr. Kostin. When we are talking about the group of people
who are potentially the victim of the crime of genocide, we are
talking about Ukrainians as a Nation. And does not matter the
ethnicity of Ukrainians we are talking about. So all
Ukrainians, once again, does not matter who are they by
ethnicity. They are struggling for Ukrainians sovereignty,
freedom, and to liberate our country.
Mr. Barr. As you investigate Russian genocide, we know that
the Chinese are supporting dual use technology and sanctions of
Asia by Russia. China is also actively engaging in systematic
genocide itself against the Uyghur people and Xinjiang. Are we
seeing China transport any surveillance technology or methods
that they are using against the Uyghurs to Moscow?
Mr. Kostin. I think it is more a question for our
intelligence and for our military. From cases we have in my
office, I have no information of such scale. But if you have
such information and if you share with us, of course we will
start check.
Mr. Barr. Let me ask you about sanctions. Following the
invasion of Ukraine in 2022, the United States sanctioned
Vladimir Putin and Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov.
Following the 2014 of Crimea, sanctions were levied against 11
Russian State security council members. In your opinion, has
U.S. sanctions effectively cutoff individuals who are enabling
and supporting these war crimes. Are there individuals that
would be effective to sanction who the United States or the
West has not yet sanctioned and who you believe are responsible
for these war crimes?
Mr. Kostin. I think that it is extremely important to
proceed with sanctioning Russians. And first of all, I would
say, Russian banks, Russian nuclear industry because you all
know that Russian attacks on Ukrainian nuclear power stations,
they raise risks globally. And they use it blackmailing
practically the world.
And the world should be strong in order to resist this
blackmailing and sanctioning more on Russian nuclear industry.
And I will add if you will allow, it is important. In cases of
deportation of Ukrainian children, we have information about
dozens or even hundreds of Russian officials even of lower
level in the regions who were involved in this policy. And
sanctioning them will also play deterring effect for the
others, for Russian officials who should think before taking
part in these war crimes.
Mr. Barr. Please share with us the identity of those
Russian officials so that we can share with Treasury and
recommend sanctioning those individuals who forcibly separated
children from their families.
Mr. Kostin. We will do it.
Mr. Barr. Thank you. I yield. Thank you.
Mr. Wilson. And thank you very much, Congressman Barr. And
we now proceed to Congressman Colin Allred of Texas.
Mr. Allred. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. And thank you,
Prosecutor General, for being here today and for your
incredibly powerful testimony. We held three hearings on this
topic in the last Congress, including one where you were a
witness.
But I am glad that we are holding another one today to make
sure that the American people can hear again and as many times
as it takes what Russia and Vladimir Putin is doing to Ukraine
and the Ukrainian people. It bears repeating that your office
has opened 80,000 investigations into war crimes. The Russians
have caused 22,000 civilian casualties.
At least 465 children have been killed by them. At least
120,000 civilian buildings have been destroyed in Ukraine. And
far worse, as you detailed today, a planned and systematic use
of rape and torture of Ukrainians, the use of sexual violence
against Ukrainian women, torture chambers, filed beheadings,
electric shock, severe beatings, forcing Ukrainians to listen
to and sing pro-Russian songs, and maybe worst of all, the
abduction of nearly 20,000 that we know of Ukrainian children
taken from their families, indoctrinated to erase their
Ukrainian identity.
I have constituents in Dallas, Texas. I ask them to think
of their families. I have a 4-year-old and a 2-year-old son.
There is nothing that I would not do to get them back, and I
know you feel the same way. And we support you in that.
This put simply as many of us have said today is genocide.
So when I hear voices in this Congress or other leaders in this
country question our support to Ukraine, I wonder if they have
forgotten who we are. We are the United States of America.
If we can do something to try and prevent this, to push
back against, then we should. It is who we are. It says a lot
about who we are. And in addition to congratulating the
Ukrainian people on your incredible bravery, the way and the
skill with which you have used the aid that we have given you,
also say that President Biden has done an incredible job
putting together an international coalition that has allowed us
to get to this point where I know you will win. I look forward
to celebrating your victory.
I have a question that is maybe not directly in your area
of expertise. But I wanted to ask it because I think it is
important to be said here. What do you think the Russian people
know that is what is being done in their name in Ukraine?
Mr. Kostin. It is quite difficult to answer properly
because no one of us know what is in their heads. First week, a
full scale invasion. Millions of Ukrainians tried to reach
their contacts in Russia, relatives, friends, colleagues,
trying to reach them directly and said, look, stop. What are
you doing?
And very few, very, very few, maybe a tip, smallest tip of
the iceberg, a big iceberg of these contacts were successful.
Many of us were shocked because where with whom we communicated
for tens of years. And then immediately these people just like
changed the other side.
So it is quite difficult for me to answer your question.
But I will give you my personal suggestion that even members of
Russian authorities have not proper information about what is
going on, on the battlefield. We knew this from the very first
meetings at the end of February when Russia asked for
negotiations.
And when we said that, look, there are a lot of bodies of
your servicemen. We are human beings. We are ready to return
them back to you for their families too.
And they said, you are lying. There couldn't be so many
bodies as we mentioned to them. So this is very difficult to
understand what is in their mind.
But I think that maybe some of them are so deeply inside
their propaganda, they are victims of their propaganda that
they even are afraid of hearing the truth. But this time will
come. The greatest tyrannies of the world in the world history
fall down in 1 day.
And this day will come. And these people will open their
ears and will open their eyes to see the truth to understand
that they are also responsible because it was a policy of their
country. And they need to take this responsibility.
Mr. Allred. Thank you, sir. I yield back, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Wilson. Ad thank you very much, Congressman Allred. We
now proceed to Congressman Bill Huizenga of Michigan.
Mr. Huizenga. Thank you, Prosecutor General, for being
here. I am going to make a statement, and then I have a couple
of questions for you. First and foremost, I believe that this
is an illegal and very dangerous act that Russia has undertaken
here in the past year.
And it must be condemned, and I do condemn it. I do want to
explore, though, and this is not a differentiation. But I want
you to understand that despite some of what my colleagues are
saying, not everybody is convinced of the progress that has
been made in Ukraine.
In fact, this is not a concern that is limited to the
United States. You know this. Germany had held back, whether it
would be in military or in other areas.
People in Switzerland, people in France, people throughout
Europe have had to explain to their voters and to their
taxpayers where their money is going. That is not anything
different than what we have to do here in the United States. In
fact, I think it is incumbent upon us to be transparent and
open and honest with our own taxpayers where billions of
dollars of their hard earned money is going.
And I happen to believe that this is the right direction to
go. But that does not mean we shouldn't stop explaining and
should not stop being transparent about that. Last week, I
happened to be in Switzerland and in Geneva.
I met with the International Red Cross, ICRC. I met with
folks from the Human Rights Commission as well as for the
Commission on Refugees exploring what was going on, what has
been the European response, what has been the U.S. response.
Certainly, the relationship that the Poles have shown, Ukraine
has been almost second to none it seems, right, as they have
been accepting refugees.
I am pleased to hear and I think many of us are pleased to
hear about the progress that has been made on these accusations
of corruptions within Ukraine. Frankly, I think Ukraine
deserves--or I am sorry. Ukraine, yes, deserves that
explanation to the world.
And that is why you went through the efforts that you did
in Brussels and in Europe explaining what has gone on. So
please do not misconstrue this or please do not accept some of
the rhetoric that is out there that somehow if you question
this and want documentation that somehow that is anti-American
or anti-Ukrainian. That certainly isn't the case.
Along the lines with the ICRC, that was a fascinating
meeting to have. And to hear the heartbreaking testimony that
we heard earlier today about these children especially that
have been taken from Ukraine. And I heard one of my colleagues
throw out a 20,000 children number. But do you have a more
accurate count of how many children have been taken from
Ukraine?
Mr. Kostin. The number is changing every day. So it is
close to 20,000 which only 361 returned home.
Mr. Huizenga. OK. And I fully understand why you do not
want to go into the mechanisms and the methods of how you are
reaching out. I am wondering, though, are there international
organizations like ICRC which is responsible for connecting
official POWs, prisoners of war. But are they involved or any
other international NGO's involved with helping to try to make
those connections?
Mr. Kostin. They should be involved because it is their
primary obligation. And we as a governmental agency are in full
contact with the ICRC. The only problem is the result. So we
are in close contact with everyone. And the ICRC as one of the
organizations which is entitled to help in all humanitarian
layers, all humanitarian dimensions for the people who suffer
from war.
Mr. Huizenga. Are there any others, Human Rights Commission
or other NGO's?
Mr. Kostin. Yes, of course. All others, Human Rights
Commission from the United Nations.
Mr. Huizenga. What can we do to help bolster that request
that----
Mr. Kostin. I think that these organizations have unique
opportunity to talk and to meet Russians--I mean, Russian
authorities. And they could raise their voice to Russian
authorities as a matter of returning our children back. I think
it could be a good start for them, and they have full
opportunities to help us with this. And we are in contact with
them.
Mr. Huizenga. Great. And I know my time has expired. I just
want to hear very briefly your commitment to make sure that
ICRC and other organizations are being granted access to
Russian POWs much as you would rightly demand that ICRC and
others are having access, constant access, not just periodic or
once, one time sort of access to Ukrainian POWs that either be
in Eastern Ukraine or in Russia.
Mr. Kostin. We have sufficient legislation and sufficient
procedures which enable ICRC to visit prisoners of war of
Russia which are held in Ukrainian facilities. If I will know
any problem, let them contact me and we will sort it out.
Mr. Huizenga. I appreciate that, and I yield back.
Chairman McCaul [presiding]. Chair recognizes the gentleman
from Minnesota, Mr. Phillips.
Mr. Phillips. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. Keating. Mr. Chairman. I would like to ask the
gentleman to allow me 20 seconds to respond.
Chairman McCaul. Would the gentleman yield 20 seconds?
Mr. Phillips. Sure, I yield.
Mr. Keating. I thank the gentleman for yielding. I just
want to clear the air. This committee--and I apologize to the
prosecutor general. You weren't here in this committee 2 weeks
ago when we had a hearing, but the rest of us were.
It was clear. We had the Inspector General's reports and
evidence from the State Department, from USAID, and from the
Department of Defense and a third party, Deloitte, accounting
firm, all looking at all the moneys that were expended by
American taxpayers. And that money was--their report was it was
spent with responsibility, full accountability, and there was
no evidence, no evidence to the contrary. I yield to Mr.
Phillips and thank him.
Mr. Phillips. Thank you, and thank you, Mr. Chairman, for
the recognition. I am disgusted and I am horrified. I have
served in this institution for 4 years, and today changed me.
Horrified and disgusted by what I saw on that screen, the
video, the atrocities. Horrified and disgusted by listening to
the most heartbreaking testimony I have ever heard by survivors
of Vladimir Putin's war crimes. And frankly, horrified and
disgusted that a colleague of ours on this esteemed committee
would inject Hunter Biden in today's discussion.
It is sickening. It is disrespectful. This is not about
Hunter Biden. This is about Vladimir Putin. It is about
genocide. It is about depravity, and it is about war crimes.
And that is why we are here. And to the survivors that we
heard from today and to the people of Ukraine, I want to assure
you that on a very bipartisan basis I assure you that these
barbaric acts have no place in the civilized world. And the
United States will be your steadfast partner in bringing the
war criminals in Russia to justice.
That is why we are here today. And I ask and invite and
encourage my colleagues to focus on that. Mr. Kostin, thank you
for being with us. I would like to ask a question about the
Wagner Group.
As the ranking member of the Middle East, North African,
Central Asian Subcommittee here in Congress, I have seen what
Wagner mercenaries commit horrific abuses and war crimes
throughout the Middles East for years. They are doing it again,
I believe, in Ukraine. They are essentially agents of the
Russian State I think we will all agree. So my question is, are
their war crimes also an extension of the Russian government?
Mr. Kostin. Once again, I am sorry. Are there war crimes--
--
Mr. Phillips. Are there war crimes, Wagner war crimes----
Mr. Kostin. Yes.
Mr. Phillips [continuing]. Extension of the Russian
government policy?
Mr. Kostin. That makes sense. I understand. Thank you.
Thank you. Thank you for your words of support, and thank you
for your questions. This is actually the matter of some of our
investigations because you know that they are very careful, how
to say, hiding the financial roots and their relations between
their groups in Africa, in some other countries.
We know about Caribbean now at the moment and their actions
in Russia and in Syria and now in Ukraine. So for that, I ask
for the very comprehensive and unified joint efforts because we
need to not only to fight against them to put an end to their
actions but also to find evidence, enough evidence that they
are the part of Russian governmental machine as one of its
proxies. For that, once again, we need support on the level of
investigation prosecution and findings on also financial level.
Mr. Phillips. Have you found coordination between the
Russian military and Wagner?
Mr. Kostin. Yes. On the battlefield, of course, their
military part, they are just the part of Russian regular army.
So they are coordinated by the same military command. But we
are also talking about the other part of Wagner, not only which
are used on the initial battlefield but the other part which is
involved in committing war crimes against our prisoners of war,
against our civil population unoccupied territories. So there
are several angles of their activity.
Mr. Phillips. Thank you, sir. And my time is running out. I
just want to encourage this committee and this institution and
this country and the entire free world to employ what Franklin
Delano Roosevelt referred to as the arsenal of democracy, to
ensure that not only does Ukraine survive but thrives and that
we pursue every single war criminal in this world. We will not
rest until we do so. Thank you. I yield back.
Chairman McCaul. The gentleman yields.
Mr. Kostin. Thank you so much.
Chairman McCaul. Chair recognizes Ms. Young Kim.
Mrs. Kim of California. Thank you, Chairman, for holding
this hearing and for arranging this opportunity to hear from
survivors of Russian war crimes. Hearing those testimoneys from
our witnesses was really heartbreaking, and my heart breaks for
the victims. And I join my colleagues in demanding
accountability. Mr. Kostin, thank you so much for joining us
today and answering these questions. But I want to ask you
first of the approximately 80,000 investigations that have been
opened, how many of those that your office have been able to
prosecute to the final verdict as of today since the start of
the full scale invasion?
Mr. Kostin. For the more than or about 80,000 incidents of
war crimes which we registered at the moment, we have
identified 310 potential perpetrators. And we informed them of
our suspicion. We have finished cases against 152 potential war
criminals. So their indictments were sent to courts. And up to
date, we have 31 Russian war criminal convicted by Ukrainian
courts in the course of this war.
Mrs. Kim of California. You have a lot of work there. There
are crimes committed against humanity. We want to see justice,
and especially as we heard these testimoneys and hearing you
detail the stories of rape and sexual violence against
Ukrainian women and especially against girls, it is
heartbreaking.
So how many of those cases involve sexual violence against
women? And how many of those cases have your office been able
to prosecute? And are these numbers reflective of the true
number of victims of sexual violence at the hands of the
Russians?
You have only identified 31 out of the 80,000 that you are
investigating, 310 identified, 152 potential. And you said 31
committed by Russians. I mean, it is a very small number that
so far that has been identified compared to what we are seeing.
Mr. Kostin. The issue, I mentioned 31 cases which have
conviction verdicts of courts. And some of them are held in
absentia because we have identified the perpetrators. We have
full set of evidence.
But we cannot wait if someday we will capture them. But the
procedure of cases in absentia is a little bit longer because
of procedural limitations. So I think that in course of this
work to convict already 31 person where in many cases it is
very difficult for us to identify is the result which it is
respected actually by Ukrainians.
We have thousands of the war criminals whom we identified.
But we have no full set of evidence. That is why I am asking
also for intelligence information. And I could comment on
conflict-related sexual violence if you wish. We have----
Mrs. Kim of California. Sure, yes. Let's do that. But I do
want to talk about the other areas since the beginning of the
war. Russia has intentionally targeted apartment buildings,
playgrounds, malls, train stations, schools where Ukrainians
were trying to flee the fighting.
And they show no regard for the lives of women and
children. And it even bombed the building where there was a
clear word written, children, right? It was so large, so bold
that you can see it from the satellite in space. These are war
crimes, plain and simple. So what do you believe is Russia's
goal in terrorizing Ukrainian civilians this way?
Mr. Kostin. This war shows that Russia--many of Russians,
they are dehumanized. This is maybe the only possible
explanations why are they so brutal. Because when I spoke with
the survivors, you met only two of them today.
We meet with others. And you cannot understand absolutely
why they are doing this. Maybe just because they want to
destroy Ukraine as a country and as a Nation.
Maybe they have been told that people in Ukraine are
waiting for them. And when they understand that this is not
true, they start to kill. They start to torture. They start to
do--I mean, bombing this theater, and this was a bomb you
mentioned even from satellite.
But this was bombing on a very low height so that the pilot
of this aircraft could see by his eyes that it is children,
dity, in Russian and Ukrainian. So I suppose it was even
written in Russian, dity, yes, by Russian letters. So for me,
it is very difficult to understand why are they behaving like
this.
The only possible explanation is that they just want to
erase Ukraine and Ukrainians from the land because the same
patterns, the same conduct which we all saw in first months of
war in Kyiv region, in Bucha, Irpin, and others. And this was
world known. And when we saw the same after liberation in
Kharkiv region in September and we saw the same cases, May,
June, July, August, September, and then Kherson, November.
And then our brave and courageous survivor today, this
crime was committed against her January this year because she
was still on the occupied territory of Kherson region at that
time. So 1 year, same conduct. Even if they know that these war
crimes were committed by their servicemen, by their people
before they proceed to do it, even knowing that all the world
is condemning such brutal behavior. So maybe because they
really want to kill all of us.
Mrs. Kim of California. That is just heartbreaking to hear
this. Thank you so much. Thanks. I know we went way over our
time. I yield back.
Chairman McCaul. But it was well worth it. Chair now
recognizes Ms. Sara Jacobs.
Ms. Jacobs. Thank you, Mr. Chairman and Mr. Prosecutor
General. Thank you for being here and testifying. And thank you
to you and your team for all your hard work.
I know it is not easy to hear these stories day in and day
out and to see all of this evidence. So we really do want to
say thank you for everything that you and your team are doing.
And please take that back to them.
As all my colleagues have said, the war crimes we have
heard about today and that we have read about in the news are
horrifying and gut wrenching. And we know there have already
been over 22,000 civilian casualties and about 17.6 Ukrainians
who are in need of humanitarian assistance. And we know that
the war is still going on.
And as everyone here has said today, accountability and
justice is so incredibly important. That is why I am supportive
of the ICC investigation into the war crimes that are
happening. And actually last Congress, I introduced and was
able to get legislation passed that allows the U.S. to provide
support to that ICC investigation. But we know that support
hasn't happened yet. And I was wondering if you could talk to
the importance of the ICC investigation and why international
support and especially U.S. support is so important.
Mr. Kostin. Thank you for this question. Once again, when I
met first time with Karim Khan, it was just few weeks upon my
appointment. It was in August or beginning of September.
And when we talk about our cooperation, I understand that
he is very committed. I understand that his team is very
strong. And when we started to also to prioritize the cases and
when we choose these cases of deportation of children as a
matter of priority, where there are many others, we understand
that we will have the result we have at the moment, first in
history.
The incumbent president of permanent member of Security
Council is named as alleged war criminal. I understand how it
is important this support because the level of attention, the
level of awareness to war crimes which are prosecuted by the
prosecutor of the International Criminal Court is much higher
than for some cases which are prosecuted by us on the national
level. I already mentioned the complementary role of the ICC.
But we discussed this with Karim. And I am ready even to
transfer the cases to the ICC which we can finalize internally
because there are cases about war crimes which are world known.
And the survivors of these cases from my point of view should
receive a measure of justice even on international level.
And we will fully cooperate with the team of Karim Khan. We
even declared or, how to say, publicly announced that we create
task forces for specific war crimes which could be later
transferred to the ICC. So in this respect, full support to all
endeavors of the ICC. Please know that if you support the ICC,
you are supporting us.
Ms. Jacobs. Thank you. And I hope that those who are
standing in the way of that assistance getting transferred hear
what you have to say today. Really quickly, given the numerous
organizations and actors currently documenting atrocities, how
is your office preserving the chain of evidence and ensuring
the documentation is viable? What more can the U.S. do to help
you with that process and also to help make sure that the
survivors and potential witnesses are getting everything they
need to be able to provide the kind of testimony you need?
Mr. Kostin. First of all, once again, we need IT solutions
in order to not to lose any piece of electronic evidence,
digital evidence we have. This is now one of the most strategic
issues I am dealing with. With regard to witnesses, victims,
and survivors, of course, we have changed approach to
prosecution, for instance, of conflict-related sexual violence
crimes.
I have changed the strategy of investigation of these
crimes. All our work now is survivor centered. We use the
principles of the Murad Code and we train internationally, also
train our investigators and prosecutors how to communicate with
the survivors of sexual violence.
This is one of the matter of my priorities, and I just go
ahead. The issue is that the survivors from vulnerable groups,
they need much more care and treatment, not only protection of
on their support for the matter of justice for them but also as
a matter of their care for psychological support, financial
living support. We are dealing with these cases in Ukraine, and
usually we have support from NGO's and from also State
institutions.
Some of these project are supported by the First Lady who
is personally dealing with shelters for the victims and
survivors of the sexual violence crimes. So we have a system.
But even some case we will need and we will say that it will be
important for these victims and survivors to feel even safer
than they are. Maybe transferring them to the other countries
would be proper help for them.
Ms. Jacobs. Well, thank you again for all of your work. And
Mr. Chairman, I yield back.
Chairman McCaul. The gentlelady yields back. Chair
recognizes Ms. Kathy Manning.
Ms. Manning. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank the
brave victims for sharing their heartbreaking stories. And I
want to thank you, Prosecutor General Kostin, for the
extraordinary work that you are doing.
Yesterday, people around the world observed Yom HaShoah,
Holocaust Memorial Day, a day to remember and honor the victims
of the most well organized, efficient, and effective genocide
in history and to repeat the vow never again. And yet we sit
here today and hear about horrific atrocities that are being
inflicted on innocent people, on children by another tyrant and
ordinary men who have become monsters under his direction. We
cannot sit idly by.
We must reiterate the vow never again. And we must make
sure the world knows about these ungodly atrocities. And we
most hold the perpetrators accountable. Mr. Kostin, thank you
for the difficult work you are doing to try to hold these
people accountable.
We know that the ICC has indicted Vladimir Putin as well as
Maria Lvova-Belova, Russia's Commissioner for Children's Rights
for overseeing the horrific abduction and forced adoption of
hundreds of thousands of Ukrainian children. It is unthinkable.
As a mother, I can barely stand to hear what has been going on.
So which other leading Russian military officials or others do
you think should be included on this list?
Mr. Kostin. Thank you for your words of support and thank
you for your question. We are investigating cases against many
Russian officials of all of the levels. And of course, we are
not only investigating and prosecuting cases related to
deportation of children together in coordination with the ICC.
There are a lot of other cases. I cannot tell you at the
moment the names. But for some cases, we already reached the
commanders of very high level who orchestrated the atrocities
committed in Kyiv region, cities like Bucha who orchestrated
and who commanded the missile attacks against civil buildings,
multi-storied residential buildings which cost more than 100
civilians killed in three cases because we found that these
three attacks which were held in Dnipro, the Vinnytsia,
Serhiivka which is near Odessa, and the Amstor Mall in
Kremenchuk where people were inside the mall at that time.
They use the very rare type of missile which is in
possession of only one military unit in Russia. And we informed
on suspicion the commander of this unit of very high level. So
we are going ahead and we are moving. And in this respect in
order to establish the command chain, we extremely need more
intelligence information to be used for cases.
Ms. Manning. Thank you. And we think it is important that
everyone who has been part of committing these atrocities be
held accountable. Following orders should not be an excuse. And
we need to make sure that all of these people are held
accountable. Thank you for your work in pursuing that.
Mr. Kostin, last June, Attorney General Merrick Garland
appointed Eli Rosenbaum who is well known for tracking down and
prosecuting World War II Nazi cases. As head of the new DOJ War
Crimes Accountability Team in Ukraine, can you talk about his
cooperation with your office and whether there is precedent for
prosecuting those responsible for Russia's unprovoked invasion
for the crime of aggression?
Mr. Kostin. I am really grateful for Eli and his team for
work they are doing. I would say that my colleagues are in
daily contact with Eli and his team. And the experienced
professionals from Eli's team not only help us with advice.
We are also dealing with specific investigation of specific
war crimes, not only in relation to Ukrainians but also against
the citizens of the United States. So we are in very close
cooperation. And I am really grateful for Eli and his team for
this level of support.
Ms. Manning. Thank you again for all of your extraordinary
hard work. We are so appreciative. My time has expired. I yield
back.
Chairman McCaul. The gentlelady yields back. Chair
recognizes Mr. Mills.
Mr. Mills. . Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you for your
time. I know it has been a very long day. I would like to just
kind of ask a few things if I may which is would a decision by
the United States designate the Wagner Group a foreign
terrorist organization assist your efforts to hold accountable
its members who have committed atrocities in Ukraine and
support your efforts?
Mr. Kostin. I think I fully support this idea. I have
already mentioned this in my address. I think it is not only
about holding them accountable for war crimes committed. It is
also about to prevent the other potential war crimes which
could be committed not only in Ukraine but worldwide.
This designation of Wagner Group as an international
terrorist organization could help all of us to stop the
activity of this organization which raise a lot of risks, not
only to Ukraine but also to many other countries of the
civilized world. You know that they are not only in Africa.
They are not only in Asia. They are now in Caribbean.
And I know that I believe that response should be unified.
For us, it will be extremely helpful because the consequences
will mean that they will have more difficulties in financing
their operations in Ukraine. And it will save lives of our
people.
Mr. Mills. That is exactly right. And as you mentioned,
they are not just in Ukraine. And they have started to get a
foothold in Caribbean and especially there in Haiti which is
very close to the American borders that we need to be
considering.
And I do look at them very much in the same way that I look
at the IRGC or the Quds Force who is being utilized as proxy
militias across the Nation to not only look at trying to
buildup foreign internal strategies to fight against Americans
or to fight against those of that nation but really to be a
mercenary group who is there to do nothing but terrorize and
murder. So I appreciate your answer very much. And I hope that
we can support in that effort.
During the past year, more than 33 verdicts were issued for
high level corruption in addition to hundreds of investigations
and dozens of indictments. What kind of progress has Ukraine
made in implementing the rule of law reforms set forth by the
EU last June as preconditions for negotiations? And has your
fight against corruption advanced the rule of law in furthering
these conditions?
Mr. Kostin. Thank you for your question. Of course, we have
priorities during wartime. And the priorities of my office, of
course, are investigation and prosecution of war crimes,
fighting against collaborators and traitors, and fight against
corruption.
In my inaugural speech before the parliament last June, I
pointed out that Ukraine has two enemies, external Russia and
its proxies and its collaborators and internal corruption. And
we need to win both fights. Immediate upon my appointment as a
prosecutor general, I appointed the Chair of Specialized Anti-
Corruption Prosecutors Office.
What we have during last month, we have appointed new
Director of National Anti-Corruption Bureau of Ukraine after
successful open selection process. The High Anti-Corruption
Court has elected their president. They were trying to do it
within last year.
They are independent. They needed to elect. So we have all
three bodies equipped with their chairs. In March this year,
GRECO as an organization of the Council of Europe has excluded
Ukraine from the blacklist of countries which are not fighting
against corruption for our joint efforts combating corruption
in high level officials, including members of the parliament
judges and prosecutors.
Mr. Mills. Well, I really appreciate that you are paying
such close attention when it comes to the prosecution and the
continued investigations into the corruption that is going on
in Ukraine. I want to followup with this noting that one of
your predecessors, the prosecutor general was removed when he
was investigating a company that is well known called Burisma.
Will you be looking into opening that investigation again and
ensuring that any type of corruption that Burisma was involved
in that it would be adequately processed, reviewed, and if need
be, prosecuted with reports back to the United States if there
is any of our personnel who were involved?
Mr. Mills. I have already answered this question during
this hearing. This is not a topic of our discussion, and I have
already answered your question about our fight against
corruption and I can give you more examples. But our hearings
are related to war crimes, and I will concentrate my answers on
this topic for now.
Mr. Mills. With that, I yield back.
Chairman McCaul. Chair recognizes Mr. Stanton.
Mr. Stanton. Thank you very much, Chairman. Mr. Prosecutor
General, thank you for being here today. For more than a year,
the world has born witness to the atrocities committed by
Russian forces to carry out Vladimir Putin's unjust and
inhumane war.
Many of these atrocities take place far from the
battlefield. Russian forces at the direction of the Kremlin
have targeted civilian shelters, even hospitals and refugees
seeking safe harbor. They have kidnaped thousands of children,
separating them from their families, caretakers, and country
all to try to erase their Ukrainian identity.
They have raped, tortured, and massacred thousands of
innocent Ukrainians. These kinds of acts defy humanity. They
are barbaric, and they are carried out by coward who are losing
this war to a proud and patriotic people.
The United States stands with the people of Ukraine who
have a right to seek justice for the horrific war crimes
committed against them. Without justice, without
accountability, there can be no true healing. Mr. Kostin, your
office, the Office of Prosecutor General, has identified over
70,000 incidents of war crimes and other atrocities in Ukraine
resulting from Russia's invasion. Given the huge scale of the
challenge at hand and your finite resources, how do you
prioritize which crimes to investigate?
Mr. Kostin. Thank you for your question. Of course we
prioritize. And many of the numbers of incidents of war crimes
which are registered are the cases where private property is
destroyed or damaged. And this I encourage people to register
these cases because even if there is a missile attack and it
could be a like a miracle that no one suffered or no one is
killed.
But it could be, like, hundreds of apartments are damaged
or destroyed. In order for these people, these civilians to
receive compensation or reparations, they need to prove that
this damage was caused by the war crime. That is why a
substantial number of these cases are cases about the
destroying and damaging of civil property but prioritizing of
course the cases where civilians are killed. Of course, the old
missile attacks, of course, cases where civilians were
tortured, raped, humiliated, forcibly deported, so any time of
war crime where civilians are harmed are our priority.
Mr. Stanton. What resources or expertise can the United
States and other partners provide to support the investigation
and prosecution of war crimes committed in Ukraine?
Mr. Kostin. First of all, we need political support. That
is why I am here. And support to establish special tribunal for
the crime of aggression as a leadership crime. Support to all
of our endeavors on international level.
It is not only about actually the ICC. It is also about
more than 20 countries who open their national investigation
with regard to war crimes committed by Russia, including the
Department of Justice of United States. And we are dealing with
our colleagues here with regard to specific war crimes they are
helping us to investigate.
And of course, the equipment we have already in place. Last
year, we have not only created war crimes department in my
central office. We have opened war crimes departments in nine
officers which are regional offices which are close to the
crime scenes.
With the help of our partners, we equip them with all
necessary equipment. What we need a part of IT solutions I
mentioned, we need forensic equipment. We need DNA laboratories
much more than we have now.
We need more forensic equipment which will simplify and
speed up the process of investigation. And as a matter of
building new prosecutors' offices and new prosecutorial
services which would be victims and survivors oriented and
centered, we need rebuilding of more than 100 regional offices
of my Service on the territories which were under occupation.
This will be also a strong signal to Ukrainians that
persecutors are close to them and they are ready to help.
Mr. Stanton. All right. Thank you for that through answer.
My time is up, so I will yield back. Thank you.
Chairman McCaul. The gentleman yields. Mr. Lawler is
recognized.
Mr. Lawler. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Mr. Prosecutor
General, thank you for being here with us. First and foremost,
the Kremlin's war on the Ukrainian people is a genocide. Let's
call it what it is. Russia has launched attaches against
Ukrainian civilian populations, targeting homes, schools,
hospitals, and other residential gathering areas.
Russian troops have committed mass murder such as the
massacre in Bucha. And they have admitted to raping Ukrainian
women to prevent them from having anymore children. Under
Putin's orders, Russia has committed a targeted ethnic
cleansing of the Ukrainian people, unfortunately qualifying
this abuse as genocide under Article 2 of the UN's Genocide
Convention. How has the Ukrainian government responded to this
genocide and what can the U.S. and international community do
to make this designation official?
Mr. Kostin. Thank you. Thank you for your question. We have
opened a structural investigation on the crime of genocide in
my office. We, of course, understand that on international
level, the International Criminal Court has jurisdiction over
Russian Federation and its perpetrators with regard to the
crime of genocide.
The other international venue could be International Court
of Justice. We all understand and we very carefully examine all
previous experience of cases of genocide and making the
perpetrators liable or accountable for the crime of genocide on
international level, previous cases of the ICC and former
international tribunals. We have a great team of experts at the
moment who help us to build the case of genocide.
My personal understanding as prosecutory general, we have
no right to lose such case. That is why we need to be 150
percent prepared for such case. For that, we will need a
substantial support, first of all.
We all understand that we are talking about crime which is
a legal issue. We are talking about evidence which is the legal
issue and you can help us with collecting this evidence and
your experts are working with us. And your experts are working
with us, and they will be more with the support of your
agencies.
What we will need is political support because for many
lawyers, it is important to feel that they are not alone, that
they are backed by politicians not only by their words but
their words backed with arguments, some of them you have
already mentioned. So political support on the left of
parliament is extremely important. Political support dealing
with international organizations like U.N. commissions, like,
others in order to send a signal that the crimes committed by
Russian officials against Ukrainians have the element of
genocide.
I absolutely agree with you. This is a genocide. Even the
case of first deportation of Ukrainian children and their
adoption in Russia is the genocide in its nature. But we need
to be more prepared, and the political support is extremely
important in this case.
Mr. Lawler. Appreciate your answer. The independent
International Commission of Inquiry established by the U.N. to
examine the conduct of Russia's war in Ukraine found that
Russian troops committed atrocities against Ukrainian children,
including rape, torture and unlawful confinement, and
abductions. This is obviously disturbing and atrocious in
nature. And it is unacceptable.
Almost equally disturbing is Russia's forced deportation of
tens of thousands of Ukrainian children into Russia. Obviously,
we have talked about that throughout this hearing. What is it
that you would like the international community to do to assist
you in your efforts on that?
Mr. Kostin. I would support the procedure of the work of
U.N. commissions, including the commission for inquiry. And if
they will also concentrate on the cases of genocide because
they have such experience which could be useful and important
for our investigations.
Mr. Lawler. OK. Thank you. Unfortunately, my time has
expired. I yield back.
Chairman McCaul. The gentleman yields back. Ms. Madeleine
Dean is recognized.
Ms. Dean. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Thank you, Chairman
McCaul, Ranking Member Meeks for holding this hearing. And
thank you, Prosecutor General Kostin, for you testimony, for
the powerful testimony of the victims whose voices were lifted
here earlier this morning.
More importantly, thank you for your work and the work of
all of your team. We are with you. United States is with you.
And your purpose here is solid to shine a light on this series
of war crimes that maybe this will be elevated appropriately to
be called what it is, genocide.
We must be with you. And I am very proud of the United
States for being a part of what is now more than 50 nations,
civilized nations who recognize the threat to you, to your
civilians, to you soldiers, to your citizens, to your
sovereignty is our fight. It is our fight.
We use an expression here, Prosecutor General, called I
associate myself with the words of my colleagues. So I
associate myself particularly with the powerful opening words
of both the ranking member and the chair. I do not associate
myself with some of the lines of question that had nothing,
nothing to do with war crimes that you are telling us about,
that you are illuminating unspeakable, soul crushing crimes.
I do not associate myself for those who come in for a
political stunt, clearly did not hear the testimony, and leave
the room. Having said that, I do not want to force you to
repeat things. I know I was running to a vote and I heard that
you were talking about survivor centered approach.
Could you tell us a little bit more? I am particularly
thinking about the children, the 361 have been brought home.
How do we help them? How is the world beginning to help them?
And of course, we have to get the others home as well as the
women and girls who have been tortured, who have been raped,
and the families who have suffered that and even more. What is
a survivor centered approach?
Mr. Kostin. Thank you for your question and thank you for
your words of support. The survivor centered approach means
that all our investigators and prosecutors should change their
approach from the inherited Soviet style regressive system
where the main aim of the law enforcement agencies is to find
the criminal, to capture, and to send him or her to jail
whereas the interest of the victims and survivors where in many
cases somewhere aside. And some starting from sometimes people
just start to forget about them.
But we understand that the victims of this war and the
stories you heard today, the video which has been shown today,
it really opened hearts of any human being in order to help to
support, to assist, to protect them. And this is a unique
moment not only for the survivors of war crimes but at large to
all Ukrainians that in peacetime after the war and maybe even
in course of war, the victims and survivors of all crimes
should feel that if their rights are breached that their
interests will be in center of attention of the government,
mainly law enforcement agencies and prosecutors. That is why
during my last visit in January, I have a meeting, one of the
meetings with the team of Merrick Garland in Department of
Justice.
And they introduced me their approach to victims and
survivors. And I immediately took this, brought this back him.
And we now already concept nots on coordinating our
communication with victims and survivors. As a pilot project,
we will use this approach vis-a-vis victims and survivors of
war crimes.
But my idea is to extend it to all victim and survivors of
all crimes to change the philosophy of criminal justice of
Ukraine for the sake of Ukrainian people. We are now starting
process of selection of the people who will coordinate,
communication with victims and survivors. We will go through
training of this specialist with the help of our international
friends and allies. And I hope this will be for the sake of all
Ukrainians.
Ms. Dean. Well, I thank you for that because my next
question was going to be to followup. You said the Department
of Justice, Merrick Garland, has provided, in your words,
unprecedented support. Clearly, that is one example.
I do not know if there are others you are able to talk
about. But I will say that we will continue to press in
appropriate ways to say we must continue to support you,
Ukraine, and the people of Ukraine. I have very little time
left.
What have you not been able to convey to us? You have
conveyed things so very powerfully. But is there anything else
you wanted to add?
Mr. Kostin. Last time, I was asked at some occasion in the
United States, what is the most important request from you, the
most important message? And usually, my colleagues start, of
course, with weapons and ammunition, humanitarian and financial
support, support for our all endeavors to seek justice. I said,
no, I will start with something else.
The main thing we need is unity. If we will have unity, we
will have ammunition, we will have financial support, we will
have humanitarian support on the level of people to each other.
And unity from my view means that we will stand together
nevertheless. Even if we are not 100 percent satisfied about
each other, we will stand together until we win in both of
these fights, fight for our territorial integrity and
sovereignty and fight for justice for all victims and survivors
of this war. So my work is unity.
Ms. Dean. Unity.
[Speaking foreign language.]
Mr. Kostin. [Speaking foreign language.]
Ms. Dean. Thank you. I yield back.
Chairman McCaul. The gentlelady yields. Chair recognizes
Dr. McCormick.
Mr. McCormick. Thank you, Mr. Chair. First of all, I really
appreciate you being here today. The testimony was moving to
me. War is a terrible reality.
I just returned from Ukraine about a week ago. I was able
to first see the pictures, hear the stories. But there is
nothing like hearing from people who have witnessed it first
hand.
There is no way I can epitomized what you all have been
through firsthand and the stories that with raw emotion are
told in front of us absolutely make an impact. And I know that
takes a lot of bravery to share that. So thank you for that,
for all the witnesses here today.
I will say that evidence that surprised me, though, is just
hearing about how it is kind of a genocide and that Putin is
very much aware of this and very much supports it and very much
this has been widespread, not just individual. In every war,
there is bad things that happen. We know this just by history.
But to see it widespread and condoned inside a military
unit really is something that we do not see in modern warfare a
whole lot of. So this stands alone. I would make the case that
we are not just obligated to you because of a nuclear treaty or
because NATO universally voted to support your country, and not
even because we should finish what we started or because we
have a moral obligation because of what is happening there.
Because you have invited us into this knowing that you are
being unfairly treated and in fact raped and pillaged. And the
degradation of your society is at stake. So I am with you.
With that said, we haven't talked much about Crimea. Now we
talked about the rest of Ukraine because that is kind of the
more contemporary issue, the thing that we talk about. Have you
seen widespread egregious behavior behind that area of Ukraine
or the disputed territories, people who are tortured and
treated in the same unjust fashions as happened in the eastern
front?
Mr. Kostin. Thank you for your question. I thank you for
your words of support. First of all, we have a lot of--I would
say thousands of criminal cases with regard to violation of the
human rights of Ukrainian citizens who are still in Crimea.
Many of them are representatives of Crimean Tatar
population. Many of them are just Ukrainians who do not accept
the annexation of Crimea and violation of their rights there.
We are doing this starting from 2014. And we have once again a
lot of cases. And it is quite important maybe to note that the
quantity of these cases start to raise during last year.
So it means that Russian authorities occupation authorities
of Crimea, they also feel probably that the resistence inside
the population of Crimea start to raise up. Maybe because our
people who are awaiting return and reunification of Crimea with
Ukraine and liberation actually of Crimea from Russian
occupation forces. Maybe they start to feel that this
liberation is closed.
Mr. McCormick. OK, thank you. A following question, it is
obvious that Iran is involved in this now and that they are
supplying drones to Russia with significant harm to the
civilian population as well. As a matter of fact, I know they
targeted power. I know they targeted thing that support the
civilians and actually directly injured civilians. What is the
real impact do you think of players outside of Russia who are
supporting Russia in their impact on things that are terrifying
to the civilian populous of Ukraine?
Mr. Kostin. I would say it is direct language because my
belief is that without this number of drones which Russia
received from Iran, they couldn't execute so massive attacks on
critical civil infrastructure from autumn through all winter
trying to terrorize Ukrainian population throughout the
country, very far from the active battlefield to terrorize it,
to starve, and to freeze. So unfortunately, the impact is
direct. And Iranian drones really caused a lot of damage to
Ukraine. Now with more air defense system, we see that our air
defense is more efficient.
The last case which was, like, yesterday, Odessa, my native
city. So our reports was that from 12 drones, 10 were shot.
Yes, so this is good statistics. But on the other side, two
were hit.
So I think that it is important on international level to
stop this potential supply. And there is also another angle of
these drones history. They are so simple in production. They
are so cheap that they should be in center of attention of all
of the countries in order not to be used, for instance, for
terrorist attacks.
Mr. McCormick. Thank you. I am out of time. But be strong.
[Speaking foreign language], Ukraine.
Mr. Kostin. [Speaking foreign language.]
Chairman McCaul. The gentleman yields. Chair recognizes Mr.
Crow.
Mr. Crow. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. And Prosecutor General,
thank you for your testimony today. You have outlined a series
of just shocking crimes against humanity, against the Ukrainian
people, the kidnaping of tens of thousands of Ukrainian
children and their indoctrination in prison camps, the rape and
torture of women, the targeting of electrical water
infrastructure to starve and to freeze, the Ukrainian people,
the use of torture of prisoners, mass executions of civilians
and on and on.
These are war crimes. They are genocide. I join my
colleagues in calling it what it is. And as several of
colleagues have said, this is not just a battle for democracy
and Ukrainian freedom, but this is a battle for humanity.
The question that must be answered here is what we will
allow humans to do to each other. And what will we allow the
tyrant that is Vladimir Putin to get away with. The answer must
be we won't allow him to get away with any of it.
That must be the answer. There is no other alternative
here. And I join you and the Ukrainian people and my colleagues
in figuring out how we do that.
Vladimir Putin has made a big mistake, though. He has
underestimated the will of the Ukrainian people because he will
not ever break that will. We know that. I have seen that
firsthand from my friends in Ukraine.
So the question becomes how do we make everybody, not just
Vladimir Putin, accountable for these crimes? Battlefield
commanders, individual soldiers, there must be accountability
at every level. And to that end, the is Congress changed the
law last year to allow the sharing of information to the
International Criminal Court with respect to Russia and
Ukraine.
It is my understanding that that law has not been fully
used yet by this Administration, that there is information that
has not been put forward. Public reports have indicated that
there is information that we have that we could provide that we
have not due to some objections by the Department of Defense.
What is your understanding as to the State of the sharing of
that information, and what objections are you hearing from the
U.S. Government at this point that might be slowing down the
provision of really critical information?
Mr. Kostin. In course of this war, many procedures
historically took months and years before now in different
countries and in different international organization now are
sorted out within months or weeks. And this is quite a unique
situation where we feel as a special element of support that
you change your procedures. But in order to get this changed
and in order to be more 100 percent efficient, it is important
to in parallel to communicate the need of such changes.
I do not want somehow to comment on why internally there
could be some resistance in exchanging of information, I mean
internally here in the United States. I just am ready to
communicate and to explain that if this is for the matter of
justice on international level to all perpetrators, not only
those who executed these commands but those who ordered these
commands. Then it does not erase any risk or any concern from
the point of, like, from the military side.
Of course, I can hear arguments because I used to be in
communication all this year for different processes. But I
think that proper communication, open and honest, will help to
break the ice if it is necessary and if it is important. And
once again, I think it is possible to share more intelligence
information we need because not just sharing information.
It is just to give answer on our very specific requests. We
are trying to deal with this new legislation. Let's see what
would be the outcome and the result. I am optimistic and I hope
that our communication will lead to fruitful results.
Mr. Crow. Thank you, Prosecutor General. We appreciate your
Service and your leadership and testimony today. I yield back.
Chairman McCaul. The gentleman yields back. Chair
recognizes Mr. Kean.
Mr. Kean. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First of all, I want to
thank you, Mr. Prosecutor General, for being with us today and
for all the hard work that you and your office has been doing
since the onset of this conflict last year. As chairman of the
Europe Subcommittee, I share Chairman McCaul's feelings.
It is important for this committee to inform the American
public about what is currently happening in Ukraine and to
display that many war crimes are being committed by Russian
forces in Ukraine. It is important for the American people to
know what is being committed by Putin forces in Ukraine and
that Europe bear witness to the atrocities that have not been
since the Second World War.
It is now more important than ever to see the evidence of
the attempted genocide of the Ukraine people. To followup on an
earlier question on a special international tribunal, obviously
regarding aggression, that would obviously have to go before
the U.N. General Assembly. And has your government reached out
to any of the people within the U.N. and other countries to
build support for such a tribunal?
Mr. Kostin. Thank you. Thank you for your support, and
thank you for your question. First of all, the core group of
countries who support the creation of special tribunal is
expanding. And the newcomer is Costa Rica which is important.
So it is a country from the Latin America.
And we are in constant communication with the members of
the United Nations in order to get more support for
establishment of special tribunal. For this, I would ask that
not only supporting us by words but also maybe to share the
work of the countries of concern who are still are not ready to
fix their position on the side of international tribunal so
that our friends and allies who are ready to help in
establishing of special tribunal will also deal with some
countries where you historically have more communication
opportunities or capabilities. This will be very helpful.
Mr. Kean. Thank you for that. In 2014, Russian forces
invaded Ukraine's sovereign territory for the first time in
Donbas and Crimea. And they have illegally occupied those areas
every since. During the initial invasion and 9 years since
then, have the Russian forces and their proxies committed
systemic war crimes in those regions?
Mr. Kostin. Yes, we have. Actually, our War Crimes
Investigation--I am sorry, War Crimes Prosecution Department of
the Office of Prosecutor General was created before. So now we
just extend its capabilities because of the number of war
crimes committed. But the war crimes which we see now, many of
them were committed before on the territory of occupied Donbas
and in Crimea.
Mr. Kean. That was my sense. Thank you for your leadership.
I yield back my time.
Mr. Kostin. Thank you.
Chairman McCaul. The gentleman yields back. Chair
recognizes Mr. Davidson.
Mr. Davidson. Thank you, Chairman. I appreciate your
testimony, and I think it helps the American people understand
the kind of visceral reaction to this war. The fundamental, I
guess, principle for human nature is do not hurt people and do
not take their stuff.
And if people could just live by that, we would barely even
need a government. But since we cannot, of course, we have all
got them. And as America watched and saw that Russia invaded
Ukraine, we know who is hurting people, and you cannot get more
egregious than taking the whole country.
They are taking your stuff and frankly they are taking a
lot of dignity from people. So thanks for making that real. And
of course, we have created this structure called the
International Criminal Court to kind of get at the idea that
certain things ought to be off limits. Do you believe that
every country ought to be subject to the International Criminal
Court?
Mr. Kostin. Once again, I am sorry. Do you believe?
Mr. Davidson. Do you believe every country ought to be
subject to the rules and principles behind the International
Criminal Court?
Mr. Kostin. I think that it is a sovereign right of any
country to take such decision. We understand that the idea of
the International Criminal Court is based on the procedures
which were first used at Nuremberg trials. So the ICC is
something like a result of Nuremberg trials. The idea of the
ICC, so the need of the International Criminal Court is to step
in where national government, national authorities are
unwilling or unable to prosecute crimes, especially war crimes.
Mr. Davidson. Right. And so if you look--and obviously
Russia is not willing to prosecute war crimes. Are any of your
neighbors providing sanctuary to people that you consider war
criminals?
Mr. Kostin. We have such information. I do not think that
it happens on a massive scale. The problem we have that we come
to use, for instance, Interpol for the matter of arresting of
the alleged war criminals who committed war crimes because for
their practice says that this is treated like a political
crimes which is not the case in our situation. But I do not
think that there is a massive situation with the countries who
are giving sanctuary to alleged war criminals.
Mr. Davidson. OK. So that is encouraging because there are
some neighboring countries that are at least providing material
aid to Russia rather than to Ukraine.
Mr. Kostin. What countries you mean which provide material
aid to Russia than to Ukraine?
Mr. Davidson. Am I wrong about Belarus?
Mr. Kostin. So Belarus is used by Russia as, like, a matter
of place from which they attack Ukraine or use it for their
aviation and many other elements of the war. Iran is supplying
weapons to Russia. I do not think that----
Mr. Davidson. But you do not think it is a local issue. You
think everybody is----
Mr. Kostin. It is not a local issue. Of course, this war is
a global war. And some countries are on the Russian side. Some
countries are actually trying to hide that they are potentially
supporting Russia. And if that been known, some of them are
changing their attitude. This is important.
Mr. Davidson. Yes, OK. So that is basically what I was
trying to get at. And so when you look at the support that you
have built for Ukraine, thanks for fighting courageously
against an invasion. The American people were ready to go. I
mean, really from America's perspective, kind of, like, ready,
fire, aim, because normally when we get involved, we set a
mission first.
When you look at the principle behind these war crimes, how
do we get to the point where we actually enforce them in a way
where people really can--what it took to get the Nuremberg
trials was unconditional surrender for Germany. So do you think
that is the end State, unconditional surrender for Russia?
Isn't that what it is going to take to hold all of the people
accountable for these war crimes?
Mr. Kostin. I used to answer this question many times. My
answer is the following. As lawyers, it is our obligation to
prepare everything, to create the case, to establish the court
when it is necessary, to collect the evidence, to make
everything possible in case any war criminal could be captured
for him to be held in custody, prosecuted, tried, and
convicted.
And it is not our aim or we have no time to think about
whether something happened in the future or not. We do not know
what will be tomorrow. As I mentioned before today, even great
tyrannies which were great in their capabilities can fall into
1 day. The experts who help us now where prosecutors in first
tribunals in cases of war crimes committed on territory of
former Yugoslavia, many of them told me we never imagine when
we started that war that, for instance, Milosevic and Karadzic
would be in the dock.
Mr. Davidson. But they did document it. And I wish I had
more time. We have a little more generous buffer in this
committee than some. So thank you, Chairman, for your
indulgence to get to the answer. I actually have some other
questions in writing for how the United States has been able to
cooperate and be supportive.
You have unearthed a number of those in dialog. And
frankly, one of the questions that we get relates to would you
be OK with the same standard being applied to Ukraine's conduct
in the war. And I would just give you if I had the time to
address the pretext that Russia used to start the war. And I
look forward to a written response. Thank you.
Chairman McCaul. Chair will allow the witness to answer
that question.
Mr. Kostin. Sorry?
Chairman McCaul. You want to reState the question?
Mr. Davidson. Well, the pretext that Russia used to start
the war was, of course, that fellow Ukrainians were engaged in
effectively war crimes against their countrymen who were
Russian speakers, Azov Battalion and others, neo-Nazis inside
Ukraine. And so Russia says, we are coming to protect Russian
speakers because Ukraine won't protect them. And they used that
as a pretext to come into the country. And so if that was going
on in any way, shape, or form, would those people held to the
same standard if they really were committing what is
effectively atrocities against their fellow Ukrainians?
Mr. Kostin. First of all, the pretext of Russian invasion,
many elements, maybe all of the elements of this pretext is
absolutely insane stories. And they could use any pretext. They
decided to start this war of aggression. They do not need this
pretext. Actually, what they did, they documented themselves
and the crime of aggression which should be prosecuted by the
international tribunal could not be very difficult case from
the legal point of view because we have a lot of evidence of
the crime of aggression started.
And their pretext, I think everyone understand that there
is nothing behind it, just some story for their propaganda and
their TV. With regard to all war crimes committed in the course
of this war, we start investigation in any case. And for us
whatever we have information about war crimes committed, it
does not matter who is alleged person.
Mr. Davidson. Thank you for that. Look, nothing justifies
what Vladimir Putin did. And look, even in America, we had
people who crossed the lines in our own rules of engagement. In
our own country, we held them accountable.
Russia is not doing that. I think a lot of people see and
say that Ukraine is also not doing that. And I just look at is
there a basis at some point to build something diplomatically
here, and I look forward to the written responses. Thank you,
Chairman.
Chairman McCaul. Yes, the gentleman's time is expired. Mr.
Schneider is recognized.
Mr. Schneider. Thank you. I am way over here. That is OK.
It is a big room. I know it has been a long day. Thank you so
much for sharing everything from your experience to testimony
earlier of the witnesses.
I am reminded of Elie Wiesel and two quotes to mind. He
said famously, whoever hears a witness becomes a witness. And
today we become witnesses to the horrific atrocities and war
crimes taking place in Ukraine.
He also says if we forget, we kill the victims a second
time. And we cannot forget. We must do everything we can to
make sure that the perpetrators of these crimes are held
accountable and face the consequences of their actions.
Also at the same time, we must constantly remind the world
where we stand on the right side of history, on the moral side
of history with the people of Ukraine, with the country of
Ukraine. And I pray this war comes to an end as quickly as
possible. But I also am committed to make sure that we continue
to prosecute the crimes for as long as necessary.
And I join my esteemed colleagues on both sides of the
aisle who have expressed the solemn hope that President Putin,
his lieutenants, and all the people guilty of these crimes face
justice. Also, Mr. Chairman, Ranking Member, I appreciate the
role that this committee has played and will continue to play
in shedding light on these atrocities and the work you do and
the witnesses coming here. This will not be, I suspect, the
last time we talk about this.
I am also pleased the last month the International Criminal
Court did announce charges against Putin and issued an arrest
warrant for him. For this to be effective, I think the
testimony, the satellite images, the myriad of materials
collected have to be retained, have to be stored, and be
available to establish guilt. No doubt in my mind that Putin is
guilty, that we will be able to prove his guilt.
But with so many crimes, I know it is crucial that your
office and the international community keep track. It is easy
to say to use terms such as countless, inconceivable. We have
to count, and we have to make sure that the world understands
and comes to conception of what has happened.
So to that end in the little of time left, Mr. Prosecutor
General, what are you doing? How can we, the United States,
best help to make sure that the evidence is collected
appropriately, the chains of custody are preserved effectively,
records are maintained so that when the time comes, when Putin
and his cronies face trial, they won't be able to say this
isn't true, this did not happen? The evidence will be
presented, it will be overwhelming, and it will be
substantiated.
Mr. Kostin. Thank you. Thank you for your support, and
thank you for your question. First of all, we are working in a
very structural way.
Actually, head of my War Crimes Prosecution Department,
Yuriy Bilousov, he just yesterday reported to me that they have
finalized strategy of investigation and prosecution of war
crimes which is created at war time by our investigators,
prosecutors but with all international projects involved,
especially Atrocity Crimes Advisory Group which is created with
the help of U.S. Government, together with U.K. and EU
colleagues and together with non-governmental organizations
involved. And this is a strategic document. So we are no only
dealing with specific cases, we help ourselves with the help of
our partners to structure work of our department, of our
prosecutors and investigators.
We also have constant, permanent sets of training, not only
held in Ukraine but also abroad with the help of our partners
to raise the level of our prosecutors and investigators because
they need to meet the highest criteria which I think could be
met either in courts of United States, United Kingdom, European
countries, or the ICC because we all understand my word to my
prosecutors, every case, every evidence you collect, you need
to think about that this evidence could be used at the
International Criminal Court which has very high standards. And
you need to be very careful in documenting this evidence
because we do not have a right to lose any case. So I am
absolutely with you.
And your question is extremely important to highlight the
necessity of the high quality of evidence collected. This is my
primary task. We are backed and supported by all international
projects of support and national prosecution authorities who
are helpful to us to train our prosecutors and investigators to
meet this criteria.
But I also wanted to say one word. You mentioned the
statistics. You mentioned the figures. This hearing today, it
is not about the figures. It is about real lives.
We all need to come back to real destinies, to real people
who are the victims and survivors of this war. And behind every
figure are people's lives. We need not to forget about it.
Mr. Schneider. Thank you. That is so important. This is a
crime against humanity, and the world will hold Russia and
Putin to account. But as you touch on, every single individual,
their story, their family, their community is a victim.
And we must remember each of the victims as those
individuals. Mr. Chairman, again, I thank you so much for
having this hearing. I know we will have more on this. We have
much work ahead of us. And I speak for our Nation, we stand
with you in your very difficult task. But we are with you
shoulder by shoulder.
Chairman McCaul. Thank you. The gentleman yields back.
Chair recognizes Mr. Hill.
Mr. Hill. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to thank the
chairman and the ranking member for their significant
commitment to the people of Ukraine and their significant
bipartisan effort to make the United States a firm and
committed partner to ejecting Putin from Ukraine. So I thank
you for your leadership.
And also on the subject of the victims of this illegal
invasion of a neighbor and sovereign country and member of the
United Nations, I think we are not forgetting the victims here.
Our chairman went to Bucha. He has done more than see photos.
And we are grateful for the international news media that
have brought the atrocities to light since day one on February
24. So I thank the leadership of this committee. I want to
followup on Mr. Schneider's comments.
In 2016, the United Nations in a General Assembly vote
established the mechanism, technically the International
Impartial Independent Mechanism to Investigate War Crimes in
Syria. It has been, I think, quite successful in storing
evidence, documenting that evidence, some most sensational.
Things like the Caesar photos, for example, and convictions
have now been taken place in Europe, including recently in
Germany.
And the U.N. has formed a mechanism to back up evidence
storage for Ukraine. Is that correct? Has the U.N. General
Assembly set up a similar mechanism for documentation of war
crimes in Ukraine?
Mr. Kostin. It is very important to also to mention. And it
is a matter of tribute and respect to all of prosecutors and
investigators. Is that Ukraine which is very different from
Syria? Ukraine from the very first day a full scale invasion.
In short, under the leadership of President Zelenskyy, that
all State authorities who are fully operational from the very
first day of war. Even some of them were relocated from Kyiv,
but they were fully operational. That is why we started
investigation and prosecution of war crimes from the very first
day. And in order to ensure secure storage of the evidence, I
applied last year to our partners and we received first
assistance from European Commission who secured for us--who
supplied for us huge servers in order not only to save but also
duplicate, yes?
Mr. Hill. Duplicate.
Mr. Kostin. Yes, duplicate the evidence of war crimes
committed. We have also other instrument now in place which is
under the auspices of Eurojust in The Hague. This is a very
interesting element.
It is called CICED, Core International Crimes Exchange Data
base. This is also financed by the European Commission. And it
will be a storage of the evidence which could be provided by
the 20-plus countries who investigate war crimes and the joint
investigation team which was created by Ukraine, Poland, and
Lithuania and now Latvia, Estonia, Slovakia, and Romania being
part of where United States Department of Justice now have a
memorandum of understanding and will deploy specialists who
will help another element of this joint investigation team, the
International Center for the Prosecution of the Crime of
Aggression which will start this operation in July in The Hague
under the auspices of Eurojust with the support of a prosecutor
which will be deployed by the Department of Justice of United
States.
So we have another storage facility for the evidence, as I
mentioned, CICED. And it will be additional storage facilities
for the ICPCA, International Center for the Prosecution of the
Crime of Aggression. So we want some of the evidence to be kept
not only in Ukraine but also abroad to be in a more safe
location.
Mr. Hill. That is very encouraging. And I am, of course,
pleased that this Congress has supported that Department of
Justice effort to provide that technical assistance. Do we have
actual--in addition to DOJ training and the MOU, do we actually
have FBI forensic experts assisting their colleagues in Ukraine
on crime scene reviews?
Mr. Kostin. Thank you for this question. During my visit--
this visit, we have already a meeting with Attorney General
with regard to more active involvement of the FBI to
investigate and prosecute war crimes. And I have meeting
tomorrow on this specific matter with the FBI.
Mr. Hill. Good. Well, this is very encouraging. We want to
make sure that you have the support you need to take to the
international community the proof of the atrocities of the
Putin invasion of Ukraine and bring Putin and his henchmen to
justice. And then we will do our part too on making sure that
we work with our partners on finding ways for Russia to support
the reconstruction of Ukraine once Ukraine has declared
victory. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I yield back.
Mr. Kostin. Thank you.
Chairman McCaul. The gentleman yields. Let me just thank
the Prosecutor General for being here today. Very powerful
testimony. You handled yourself extremely well making the case.
The reason the ranking member and I wanted to do this
hearing is to call attention to not only the American people
but the world about what is happening on the ground and the
atrocities taking place every day. At a minimum, you are
providing a documentation, a historical documentation of these
atrocities. And we sincerely hope that they will be brought to
justice. And as I used to say when I was a prosecutor that
there will be a special--particularly for the Wagner Group, a
very special place in hell for them.
So with that, members of the committee, pursuant to the
rules, they have 5 days to submit statements, questions,
exchange materials for the record. And I would like to close
with an excerpt from an incredibly powerful documentary. I have
seen it several times called Freedom on Fire which depicts the
horrific realities of Putin's war.
[Video shown.]
Chairman McCaul. And without objection, the committee
stands adjourned.
[Whereupon, at 2:11 p.m., the committee was adjourned.]
APPENDIX
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
STATEMENT FOR THE RECORD FROM REPRESENTATIVE CONNOLLY
[GRAPHIC NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
RESPONSES TO QUESTIONS SUBMITTED FOR THE RECORD
[GRAPHICS NOT AVAILABLE IN TIFF FORMAT]
[all]